Third Party Seriously

Rant. This is just a rant by a dude in a room in a house. It's just a long comment so don't sweat it. I was going to write about how I am interested in a new political system because the one we have sucks. But I've done that before on this blog and it didn't turn out so well. People either don't want a new political system or think it simply can't happen therefore it's a stupid fucking idea, magic fairy dust stuff. The better idea that requires no fairy dust to believe is to build a new political party and elect more and better politicians to have a voice in Congress so the Serfs can get $15 minimum wage by 2050.

I understand that, I really do. I mean, we're in new territory here.

"The Republican and Democratic parties, or, to be more exact, the Republican-Democratic party, represent the capitalist class in the class struggle. They are the political wings of the capitalist system and such differences as arise between them relate to spoils and not to principles." - Eugene V. Debs

Even though there have been been only nine third party politicians elected to the national Congress/Senate since WWII, I can appreciate the effort to double that within half that time, say by 2050. Currently there are two and one just ran as a duopoly candidate for President. There are 535 representatives, imagine the impact nine out of 535 would have by 2050. The possibilities are endless. End imperialism, end poverty, solve climate change, destroy the oligarchy, end plutocracy, you name it.

This looks like a situation that simply cannot be resolved without a significant change in the political system, if not an entirely new one.

Oops, I said I wasn't going to talk about that.

Well, I keep getting asked, but count me out of the third party thing. I'm not going to spend my time on it. The bottom line is I do not see a payoff.

Not only that, I am done with politicians. I am done with this silly ass game we play of pretending that electing people to "represent" us is like some kind of valid avenue to express my freedom on this planet. The way I see it, they're making OUR decisions for us. I'm tired of that bullshit because they can't make a sound decision if it saved their asses. And I feel perfectly capable of making my own decisions. I'm not against representational government in total, maybe I could go for something greatly expanded, but this system of 535 politicians representing 330 million people is a joke. Everybody except those that watch Fox News and MSNBC and read the NY Times knows that we don't live in a democracy, we live in an oligarchy controlled by a plutocracy, a plutarchy. So what the hell are we doing?

Many will ridicule that perspective, but I don't really give a shit. I do other things outside the system and a "third" political party is part of the system, make no mistake.

What's my solution if not a third party? I don't have a solution. I mean, there are valid options but they're just too hard, way easier to elect more and better politicians. But I don't feel I need a solution to oppose something, I oppose a lot of things I don't have solutions for. I oppose U.S. imperialism but don't have a solution. I oppose the singing of "God Bless America" during he 7th innings of major league baseball games but don't have a solution on how to end that unbelievably stupid practice.

I suppose that does it. My work here is done.

"There's no solution, but Revolution"

[video:https://youtu.be/Jg8h526sB7w]

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Shahryar's picture

and sometimes they switch.

They are power seekers whose goal is to enrich themselves. Anyone who wants power enough to get it is one of those people. Normal human beings rebel against doing what's necessary to gain that power.

Any 3rd party that gets strong enough to challenge for power would get taken over by those who want power for themselves...or get corrupted by the power.

If we look at this not as the United States of America but as the American Empire (which includes multinational corporations) we can see that most elections are only for show. The exceptions would be for local offices in small towns.

In a way the idea of building a third party is another diversion. It'll keep us occupied while the dirty work gets done.

Still, it might be a longshot but I don't disparage anyone who works for that. Maybe I'm wrong and maybe a third party could fix things.

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Big Al's picture

possibly better options. Like the couple hundred million Sanders raised, instead of people essentially contributing their 27 bucks to the democratic party, we could have funded an outside the system effort. We're in dire need of an antiwar effort but if all the attention and resources are put into the electoral process, there's no chance of that forming.
Many have said the electoral process is meant to keep us in our places, that's what it does. It's Hillary's health, Trumps hair and Brangelina instead of focus on stopping the crazies at the top.

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--even apocalyptic war--not just economic oppression.

Trump's antics seem designed to distract people from substance as much as possible so as to sneak Hillary the Warmonger into office while people are looking the other way.

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Big Al's picture

confrontation with Russia instead of indirect. Coupled with China's debt problems, the west is honing in on the other two rising powers.
The Syria war needs to be stopped now, we should be in the streets.

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And it looks like we have a military completely out of civilian control.

Loony tunes.

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snoopydawg's picture

As is the Syrian causalities, the hacking of the DNC and probably Hillary's pneumonia and people don't question any of it.
They believe everything that the government tells them without bothering to see if it's true. Look at how many people still believe that Saddam was in cahoots with AQ and that he had WMDs. Well he did but the ones that the troops found were the ones Rumsfeld gave him during the Iraq Iran war.
Babies being thrown out of incubators, the Jessica Lynch rescue, ect.

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

Big Al's picture

It really is. I was just reading about the U.S. airstrike that killed 62 Syrian military and how it's being painted as a mistake, etc. The media, all of television, is in cahoots as they say with the government and those that control it. It is such a major problem.

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snoopydawg's picture

for over an hour was a mistake too. Even though people were calling the military and it continued for another half hour.
In last nights EBs joe put up an article about how it was possible that the pentagon defied Obama's orders to stand down.
They have been pushing him to be more aggressive and put troops in a bunch of countries.
I read that he was able to stall them and didn't put troops in Syria then read that they are there fighting on the ground and then one of our moderate terrorists groups we are supporting threatened them and made them leave.
Trying to find the truth about what is actually happening is getting harder.

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

starting to get it. dRumpf is the only candidate that could make her look good and she's fucking THAT up! Priceless.

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Ya got to be a Spirit, cain't be no Ghost. . .

Explain Bldg #7. . . still waiting. . .

If you’ve ever wondered whether you would have complied in 1930’s Germany,
Now you know. . .
sign at protest march

Thaumlord-Exelbirth's picture

Since this country was founded. We have slowly been chipping away at that over time.

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I'm tired of that bullshit because they can't make a sound decision if it saved their asses.

I appreciate the point that their decisions are sound enough when it comes to lining their own pockets and accumulating more power, but our "leaders" are conducting themselves in a way that seems more a satire of a greed-and-corruption saturated system than a real government, media and industry. They act determined to bring the people to the boil of revolt.

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I want you to understand something about this statement you made-
"I'm perfectly capable of making my own decisions"

That may be a valid statement but you seem to extrapolate that to cover all the folks that are being Governed. There are millions of citizens that can't make their own decisions because of disabilities.

Just something to keep in mind. We all have different abilities and disabilities, we can't all understand how fucked up we are.

Keep fighting brother! Orwell lived a new system in Catalonia so it is possible but only when the powers that be create a power vacuum by raising arms against each other.
So if you want a new system you better be willing to kill and die for it.

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Big Al's picture

As one who literally fights for people with disabilities, I totally agree. That's a big part of what I fight for, the people who can't.
And believe me, I would sacrifice myself if it would help turn this world around.

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While it appeared that Stalin was fighting a proxy war against Hitler and Mussolini, the truth exposed by Orwell is that both worked together to disarm, then destroy the CNT/FAI.

I'm reminded of that Unholy Alliance when I read about the Kurds now having to fight against the Turks, Assad, ISIS, Al Qaeda and all those "moderates." And I'm sure the U. S. has pulled the rug from under them when it comes to supplies, air support, intelligence, etc.

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joe shikspack's picture

i agree with you that the current system will not be the vehicle for creating the sort of society that we need and want.

perhaps the best way to get started on a new one is to start with some founding documents. you know, some sort of statement of why the current government is stupid, intolerable, corrupt and needs to be replaced, followed by a statement about the sort of world that the current governance is preventing that needs to spring into existence.

then after that is done, some sort of blueprint of goals and governance would be handy.

just a suggestion.

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Big Al's picture

"what we need and want" is the key. I've asked the question to people, "do you think this political system should last forever or do you think at some point it should be replaced"? If people think at some point it should be replaced, doesn't Trump vs. Clinton kind of signify NOW is the time? Like, if not now, when?

Agree joe. talking bout a revolution. You're exactly right on what needs to be done. It would be nice to have a large workgroup put something together.

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mimi's picture

Basic Law, law that can't be negotiated over and over and law that is settled. Hecate wrote an OT once and explained the pledge of allegiance to the flag in schools and how in fact it was supposed settled law that nobody could force a child to perform that allegiance pledge or salute. What I remember from that was the fact that laws that should have been settled weren't.

Al, I agree with much what you say, just don't understand why you added a snark tag. There is no snark in what you say and I think the situation is serious.

Oh well, I believe in miracles, may be you write a new basic law, without first having an apocalyptic crash of the system, no house of cards falling upon the civilians and bury them under it. I don't think it has happened often, rather, most dramatic system changes came out of ashes of a destroyed, defeated country. We don't want those wars to happen and try to avoid the mayhem.

PS. Founding Mothers are ok too. But stop those sexism accusations. You have to work together one helping the other, one needing the other. That's basic.

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Big Al's picture

I'll take the snark tag off.
I'd like to see a large group of people get together and hammer something out to present to the SERFS. Maybe I'll start it myself, not something I haven't thought about for a long time.

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Steven D's picture

Our system is set up to make third parties fail. For a third party to succeed, that means one of the two major parties must first collapse.

Here is where I think we need to put our time and effort into in no particular order:

1. Mandatory paper ballots and elimination of e-voting machines

Until this happens we cannot trust the result of any election. I fully expect the e-voting machine to flip the vote to Hillary in key states she needs to win an electoral college victory. Anyone who believes we have free and fair elections is living in a fantasy land. Those billionaire donors of Hillary paid good money to support her. They are not going to see their investment turn south.

2. Overturn Citizens United and Corporate Personhood through Amendment

Until this happens, it won't matter who we vote for because the game is rigged to favor candidates backed by big money donors. This is why I support Move to Amend.

3. Change the way we vote from winner take all to proportional voting.

This is the only way to ensure that voices outside the two main parties get represented. I personally favor this system, proposed by Fair Vote, but I am open to anything other than our current system that under-represents real human being and over-represents rich people and corporations.

4. Support Protest Movement of all Kinds

From Black Lives Matter to the NODAPL Standing Rock Sioux to Stop the TPP we need people on the ground and with the money supporting protests, civil disobedience actions and demonstrations against what our corporate overlords want our government to do for them (and do against us). The more we support people who are passionately behind one issue, the more they will be willing to support those of us who care more deeply about other issues. Call it the reciprocity principle.

5. Build and Support Alternative Progressive Media

This is an obvious one. As long as corporate controlled media is the main source of news (i.e., information), as well as the main editor of what gets covered and what does not, the less free the rest of us become.

Building a third party movement is not high on my list right now because I do not think it will succeed in the absence of one of the Big Two collapsing. And even then, the risk that it will be infiltrated and taken over by corporate influence is too high under our current political system that values money and power over free speech and human rights, and which requires a first past the post electoral system. I'm not going to tell others how they should invest their time and resources, and if working on a third party is what they want to do, more power to them. But that's not what I see as the best use of my time, nor the most likely path to success.

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"You can't just leave those who created the problem in charge of the solution."---Tyree Scott

Big Al's picture

I guess I'd add an antiwar effort into that as something many people should put some time into. The situation is near meltdown. And if we get Clinton, lights out.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

The situation is near meltdown. And if we get Clinton, lights out.

If we get either one of them, it's lights out.

Clinton is Trump. Trump is Clinton. Trump says out loud what Clinton just does once she has power.

The only difference is the nation of manufacture of the guns and bullets used to kill us Serfs. With Trump, they'll be American (with maybe a little Israeli mixed in for flavor). With Hillary Clinton, they'll be Russian and/or Chinese.

Us Serfs will end up equally shot to death either way. Or starved. Or subjected to death from exposure. But we end up the same way.

Bad

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

thanatokephaloides's picture

5. Build and Support Alternative Progressive Media

This is an obvious one. As long as corporate controlled media is the main source of news (i.e., information), as well as the main editor of what gets covered and what does not, the less free the rest of us become.

And we're going to have to face the fact that at least some of that is going to have to be good old-fashioned print. Broadcast has already been totally locked away from us (got a few hundred million sitting around to buy a spectrum channel?) and the day and age where alternative internet supplies news to more than a tiny minority will probably never arrive; as soon as it acquires anywhere near its potential, the powers that be will seize it and shut it down cold. Moreover, many of those whose assistance we will need are already internet-disconected. So the underground newspaper -- as actual paper -- will have to make a comeback. And I think it will.

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

thanatokephaloides's picture

1. Mandatory paper ballots and elimination of e-voting machines

Until this happens we cannot trust the result of any election. I fully expect the e-voting machine to flip the vote to Hillary in key states she needs to win an electoral college victory. Anyone who believes we have free and fair elections is living in a fantasy land. Those billionaire donors of Hillary paid good money to support her. They are not going to see their investment turn south.

Or, as I put it in this Comment:

Anything one engineer can do, another can un-do. And that will always be true. The only limits are the willingness and ability of those on the hackers' side to devote the quantity of resources required to un-do what had been done to defeat them.

And Hillary Clinton definitely has access to the quantity of resources necessary to enable a group of skilled hackers to make those e-voting machines be "with her". And she also has the contacts in countries able and willing to shelter those hackers both during and after the fact to protect those hackers from any future consequences, too.

Now, if we could somehow get Anonymous to do that hack and set all the e-voting machines to vote Stein......

Diablo

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

hecate's picture

have only been around since the late 1600s. It's not like they're essential to human life.

The first two parties—the Petitioners, and the Abhorrers—they were birthed by, appropriately enough, a CT: that sinister papists were planning to kill Chuckles II of England, and replace him with brother Jimmy.

This CT plot didn't exist—it was just shit made up—but Parliament went and freaked, and banned all Catholics from public office, and tried to make a Rule that Jimmy could never be the king. Chuckles II, pissed, then dissolved parliament.

It was at that point, that the Parties, they came to be. The Petitioners, they wanted Chuckles to call a new parliament. The Abhorrers, they were with Chuckles, and said nobody needed no stinking parliament.

The Petitioners, they came to be known as Whigs; the Abhorrers, as Tories.

And, from there—away, the humans, all went.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsYJyVEUaC4]

/

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfMOkBKY-1Q]

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Meteor Man's picture

We need to define short term goals, interim goals and long term goals.

Getting 5% of the vote gets matching federal funds. Once that threshold is crossed getting 15% in polls gets a seat at the presidential debate table.

The Green Party is unquestionably on track to achieve both of those goals by 2020. That is the most effective short term goal I know of. We don't abandon interim goals outside the two party system. We work on them in conjunction with getting a seat at the presidential debate table.

Our long term goal is survival of the human species. We may have time to get there. We may not. Time will tell.

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"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn

Big Al's picture

Because she sure isn't going to get it this year. Like I said, in order to get serious about a third party to challenge the duopoly, a lot of people are going to have to put a lot of time and effort, and money, into it over the next four years. Count me out as I said, I see no payback on it. A seat at the debate doesn't impress me, the debates are scripted, scrubbed and just more election year bs.
I'm taking a different view on the whole thing. In effect, we need to burn it down and start over. We don't have time to wait thirty years to see if a third party can possibly challenge the oligarchy.
And I don't think the Green party has a chance anyway. I remember when the Green's really started in the 70's, the prelude to the party. The radical environmentalist tag will always relegate it to the fringes. So at best they'll continually be fighting for a small voice in the political system.

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Citizen Of Earth's picture

Yeah. Tell me something I don't already know.

In your words...
"What's my solution if not a third party? I don't have a solution."

But go ahead. Throw rocks from the cheap seats at people who plan to vote for a third party candidate. They at least are doing Something, Anything to try to throw the corrupt bums out.

I'm doing Something. I'm voting Green.

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Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.

Big Al's picture

Don't say I'm not doing anything because you don't know me. And personally I don't think "voting" Green is doing a damn thing.

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and we need a revolution. A mass fucking uprising! A total revolt against the oligarchy and the corporations and the status quo. But how do we bring it about?

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Love is my religion.