Signal Wave

Good morning, all!

This is the week I'm doing two open threads. I've moved from Wednesday to Sunday, from the day of Odin to the day of the Sun.

I find the origins of the days of the week downright strange. Apparently, it's a fairly old tradition to to name the days of the week after planets. The Romans associated the planets with some of their deities (which, as Eddie Izzard says, they mostly borrowed from the Greeks).

I was going to include a clip here from Eddie Izzard's fabulous show Dressed to Kill, but it is apparently "blocked in country" by NBC/Universal, which is claiming copyright. So they're preventing me from sharing it. How lovely. I suppose it doesn't matter that I bought a copy. Isn't capitalism grand?

Anyway, the Romans thought the first day of the week was for worshipping the sun, the second the moon, Tuesday for Mars, Wednesday for Mercury, Thursday for Jupiter, Friday for Venus, and Saturday for, obviously, Saturn.

In fact, the Romans actually invented the seven-day week between the 1st and 3rd centuries AD, replacing an older 8-day way of reckoning time. The reasons we know this are pretty cool, so I'm going to quote Wikipedia (which is quoting E. G. Richards' book Mapping Time, the Calendar and History, Oxford 1999, and Peter Keegan's book Written Space in the Latin West, 200 BC to AD 300 ):

Our earliest evidence for [the seven-day week] is a Pompeiian graffito referring to the 6th February (viii idus Februarius) of the year AD 60 as dies solis ("Sunday"). Another early witness is a reference to a lost treatise by Plutarch, written in about AD 100, which addressed the question of Why are the days named after the planets reckoned in a different order from the actual order?.

It's funny, because I was thinking of asking that same question 1,918 years later.

So the Roman empire spread the notion of the week and the association of the days with both planets and gods, but colonials and neighbors, as usual, changed and interpreted the system to suit themselves. We English-speakers got our version from German, probably via the Saxons:

The Germanic peoples adapted the system introduced by the Romans by substituting the Germanic deities for the Roman ones (with the exception of Saturday) in a process known as interpretatio germanica. The date of the introduction of this system is not known exactly, but it must have happened later than AD 200 but before the introduction of Christianity during the 6th to 7th centuries, i.e., during the final phase or soon after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire.[13] This period is later than the Common Germanic stage, but still during the phase of undifferentiated West Germanic. The names of the days of the week in North Germanic languages were not calqued from Latin directly, but taken from the West Germanic names.

This is why we don't talk about dies solis, but rather something much more like Sunnandæg, from the proto-Germanic Sunnōniz dagaz, "day of the sun." Interestingly, the Germanic languages preserved this connection of the first day of the week with the sun even after the introduction of Christianity, unlike a lot of the Romance languages, which changed the name to some variant on "the Lord's day."

The Moon's day stayed the moon's day in Germanic languages, and thus in English, but they did not retain the Latin word for the moon. Romance languages did, which is why you have the Spanish lunes and the French lundi (you can see the connection to the word luna). We have Monday because our word for the moon does not have a Latin origin. In the Old Norse, Mani is the personified (and deified) Moon, the brother of the Sun.

Here's where it gets interesting; for the Romans, the third day of the week was dedicated to Mars, the god of war. But to the northern Europeans who shaped this part of our language, it was Tyr's day. Were they substituting the closest parallel for the Roman deity of war they could think of? Tyr is an interesting choice. Many of the Norse gods were involved in warfare. Tyr is the one who put his hand in the wolf's mouth, so I think of him as a god of sacrifice for the common good, not much like Mars and certainly nothing like the Greek Ares.

Perhaps it's the other way around, and it was the Romans who drew the parallels. Tacitus said of the Germans, "Among the gods Mercury is the one they principally worship. They regard it as a religious duty to sacrifice to him, on fixed days, human as well as other sacrificial victims." Tacitus was talking about Odin, or Woden, whose day is Wednesday, or Wodens' day. Mercury is very clever of course, a god of conversation, intelligence, and invention (also thievery, if you listen to the Greeks!) but Woden is a god of wisdom and magic. To me there's a difference, but then again, the alchemists saw Mercury as something deeper than a brilliant scoundrel.

Thursday is Thor's day, of course. Pretty straightforward, like the god himself. But the leap from the Mediterranean to Northern Europe has never been over a greater gap. The fifth day of the week, to the Romans and Greeks, belonged to Jupiter, or Zeus. I am at a loss to find any correlation between Jupiter and Thor other than the fact that the both wield the thunderbolt. I guess that was enough for the ancients!

I always thought Friday was Freya's day, but it's actually Frigg or Frigga's day, and the only day other than Sunday named for a female deity. The Norse evidently thought that the planet Venus itself was Frigg's star. She is the wife of Odin, and is associated with foreknowledge; her name may mean "beloved." She seems awfully solemn to be the namesake of a day we mostly associate with celebration and festivity because the work week is over.

Saturn is the only Roman deity who kept his own name, derived from the original language, as the name of his day. I don't know why. He is an incredibly complex god, and it's easy to forget those complexities and reduce him to his Greek version, the titan Cronus. The story of swallowing his children is so vivid that it tends to be what most people remember. I know it's what I remembered! However, he is also a progenitor god, associated with founding Roman culture, including multiple Roman towns: the bringer of agriculture, laws, and civilization. At the same time, his festival is the exact opposite of civilized restraint: the Saturnalia, when all are liberated from the ordinary restrictions of society.

He's a complex being. It's perhaps fitting that he kept his day, since he is also a god of time.

Here's what I'm reading this week:

Judith Herrin
Byzantium: the Surprising Life of a Medieval Empire

byzantium.jpg

It's full of information, but I'm finding it rather slow going. Trying to finish it before interlibrary loan wants it back on the 25th. I'm about halfway through. Maybe my brain is not used to reading academic writing anymore! Her method of organization is not strictly chronological, which I appreciate; while there's a place for history that says "This happened...and then this happened...and then this happened," changing that up from time to time challenges the brain.

I've just finished reading about eunuchs, who occupied some fairly prestigious positions in Constantinople (apparently castrating your sons and giving them to the Empire was fairly common--yikes!), and now I'm on to a chapter on imperial children, and the establishment of a hereditary imperium.

I need to make it to at least the Macedonian period, if not to the wretched crusade that basically brought Constantinople down in 1204, before the book is overdue. Another history of Constantinople is on my filing cabinet, untouched. I wish I read as quickly as I used to!

I am now watching Deadwind, a Finnish murder mystery about a woman who is found dead on the site of a proposed sustainable development. A wind energy company has proposed the development, and she is a consultant on the project, and the lover of one of the company owners. She's killed and her body dumped on the development site. So far I don't actually know who did it. Good stuff.

This song has been my earworm for the past few days. I'm not the biggest Madonna fan in the world, but I respect her. This is one of her better ones:

I like her better when she's singing lower in her range. Her voice is richer and stronger there.

How are y'all this morning?

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

enhydra lutris's picture

Welcome to Sunday and thanks for the OT. It was interesting to wander through the days' names with you. Though I've been aware of the naming referents in both the Roman and Germanic traditions, it never occurred to me to seek the correspondences in the conversion but simply had a un-analyzed understanding of Yeah, the Romans called them this and the Germano-Norse crowd called them that.

My wife is very day-of-the-week conscious while I am much less so. We have these frequent conversations while planning and discussing things that take the form of:
moi - ... and we'll be back on the 6th
Mi amado - "is that a Saturday?"
moi- "how the fuck should I know, it's the 6th"

My operating system just upgraded and in the process, a little notification that used to convey useful information in a format somewhat like :September 9, 6:47 am" up in the top right corner now sits in the middle of the screen and says Sun "6:47" and I have yet to find the time to figure out how to change it. Many times a day I find myself looking up there for the date and, bah. "ok, it's Sunday, fine, what the hell day is it?" I used to get these desk calendars that had the ordinal date - today is day 252 of 2018 - which was always nice to have too. I don't even want to think what the day would be in the Maya calendar, but I do know that the Aztec day would probably have "tl" in it somewhere.

At any rate, to the numerically oriented, it is 09/09 - no doubt very propitious to many, and to followers of eris: Boomtime, Bureaucracy 33, 3184 YOLD.

Whatever the day, do enjoy it and have a great day, even with MoonDay right around the bend.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@enhydra lutris Yeah, I need notification of dates too, mainly because I don't remember them very well.

I'm curious as to whether others have plans for 9/11. I like to have a specially scheduled "bunker day" on 9/11 if I can, where I minimize all contact with the outside world and retreat within my house with pizza and cheesy movies. That's what I used to do when I lived just outside Washington D.C. It was close to intolerable otherwise.

Of course, when it's on a weekday, people can't always avoid being out and about. Even though I no longer work, turns out I'm going to have to go out twice, which pretty much shoots the whole thing in the head (partner has two medical appointments on that day). One appointment and we could still bunker in, just with one hour and a half interruption; two appointments and it turns back into an ordinary day. Oh well.

Do you do anything in re: 9/11, or do you just ignore it?

I think I might just ignore it if I hadn't been living in DC from 2005-2014. That's a lot of years of faux patriotic garbage.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

CS in AZ's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

Or I try to anyway.

I go to work like usual, and for the last several years at least, everyone there also ignores it, we just go through our workday like any other and it doesn’t come up, what day it is...

But the truth is I never really ignore it, ever. If I happen to glance at a digital clock at 9:11 am or pm, I see those numbers and I’m reminded, just a flash of recognition. Anytime I see those numbers, that happens. It’s subtle but I do notice it.

We had a new senior manager start at our company last year on 9/11 — and she had a weird vibe from the beginning... some of us felt her behavior upon arrival on day one signaled she was as on oncoming disaster (relative to the work environment), and the date was mentioned by some (not me, but I’m sure most of us at least noticed the date) as an omen that reinforced the feeling she was trouble. Which she was... and now fired, less than a year later, thankfully.

In so many ways I find that try as I might, that date cannot really be ignored. I lived in Southern California on 9/11/01 — so I very far from the epicenter... but still felt the shock and the foreboding sense the world was about to come undone. The date seems seered into my consciousness.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@CS in AZ I felt it too, of course. You don't have to buy into the hype to feel the horror.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

enhydra lutris's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
and Chiles populace. The slaughter we initiated there far surpasses anything that happened here. Beyond that, I try to avoid all the displays of "Patriotism", remembrance, jingoism, xenophobia and the like, and try especially hard not to get too cynical and snarky should I get trapped out and about by perpetrators thereof and participants therein. My wife has a quilt thing scheduled and I have nothing on my calendar but chores. I would like to go seek to purchase one item that has a serious time deadline, so I may have to sneak out for that purpose.

My reactions to 9/11 were, I guess, pretty jaded. They still haven't changed much, either.
#1 Reichstag Fire???
#2 Heh, the US is now getting a taste of how the rest of the world lives
#3 Jaysus Christ O'Malley, will somebody please shut all these fucking warmongers up
#4 Well, at least 1/2 right, they're gonna use it like the Reichstag Fire was used

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@enhydra lutris If I were more superstitious, I would think that there was something karmic in our getting hit on the anniversary of that atrocity. But then, it's closer to the truth to say that the same shitheads responsible for the first crime were also responsible for the second...or their proteges were.

Maybe they were celebrating the Pinochet coup with a little slaughter.

Sorry, that's a bit dark.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@enhydra lutris I felt a genuine, horrible grief, in that the people who died were not only killed, but, as you say, killed for a purpose, and probably by their own leaders. Disgusting to watch the vultures make political hay out of their deaths, and pretend to be "patriots" when they were probably responsible for those people's deaths.

I never watched Bush's moment of glory with the bullhorn. I've never heard that speech.

I find the whole thing unutterably offensive, while still being grieved at what happened to my people (and apparently a fair number of Canadians as well. Isn't it interesting that we apparently have no problem with slews of Canadian immigrants here, while those who come from the south engender something close to panic?)

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

snoopydawg's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

is going forward? I believe it's the group 9/11 engineers who are bringing it. The report on it was totally bogus. The material from the towers has been disappeared so that no one could see that the debris was full of thermite which was used to bring the towers down.

Look at the videos in slow motion. They show that the buildings were pulverized before they hit the ground.

Plus there's this video that I recently watched. What caused the cars and bus to burn down to the metal before the towers came down?

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

@enhydra lutris

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qz94yveXgQ]

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h81Ojd3d2rY]

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjFoQxjgbrs]

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz8d4qnmEnQ]

But, hey, Monday is only 24 hours (and some nanoseconds). Before you know it....

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XkLC7JsO3s]

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enhydra lutris's picture

@HenryAWallace
the mid-morning, because it has become the day we go up and walk at the lake, but that's usually just an hour or two, and I seldom sit here that long even when I'm home. I've already got it queued up, however, so I can't use any of those. Wink

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

@enhydra lutris

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

In reality, the Roman calendar was a mess until Julius Caesar went to Egypt. There he noted, among many other things, that the Egyptian calendar was much more sensible and accurate than the Roman calendar. However, Julius made the mistake of bringing back to Rome a Greek (Macedonian?) astronomer/astrologer, instead of an Egyptian one. The Macedonian or Greek guy had misinterpreted the accurate Egyptian calendar as a year of 365 days, which we all know is wrong. (Hence Leap Years plus some adjustments of seconds that somehow occur quietly.)

Ancient Egyptians, being a people with a long river surrounded by desert, apparently noted everything that they could about the time of year that the Nile flooded its banks, including the position of a certain star when the flooding occurred. The new year began when that star was in that position.

Today, one the most accurate calendars is the Iranian, which "begins at the midnight nearest to the instant of the vernal equinox as determined by astronomical calculations for the Iran Standard Time meridian (52.5°E or GMT+3.5h) It is, therefore, an observation-based calendar, unlike the Gregorian, which is rule-based.[1]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_calendars

Of course, we use the Gregorian calendar (named after Pope Gregory) with some cheats mentioned above (necessary because the time required for the earth to circle the sun is not exactly 365.25 days of 24 hours each). Minutes and seconds are mysteriously somehow adjusted without most people being aware of the adjustments.

At first, I was researching all the above because it fascinated me. However, at some point, I decided to write a book. However, my computer(s) kept dying. So, I lost drafts and bookmarks. I started over two or three times. Meanwhile, a book was published that seemed to preempt the one I had had in mind. It was/is Calendar: Humanity's Epic Struggle to Determine a True and Accurate Year. Sigh. I never read it, but the title alone told me it covered the same material, from the Ancient Egyptian discovery to Pope Gregory.

So, how did the Pope, of all people, get to be in charge of what is an astronomical calculation? Julius Caesar again. Back in the day, Julius (for whom July and the Julian calendar are named) was put in charge of the Roman calendar, a job he did not relinquish when he decided to be a god/emperor.

Subsequent rulers, including Augustus Caesar (for whom August is named), also hung onto that task. Gradually rulers of Rome handed over to the Pope their various jobs, titles, powers etc. Hence, Pope Greogory got stuck with figuring out a calandar that worked better than the old Julian calendar (which itself has since been revised to be more accurate).

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@HenryAWallace Wow. Thanks for that info, HAW. My partner is looking to see if that book exists on tape/CD.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@HenryAWallace I just heard an A-ha! from the other desk, so I guess she found it.

Eureka.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

of a song of which your tag line about John Edwards reminds me, for some odd reason.

At first, I thought the song was sexist. Then, I learned that Norah Jones was covering a song whose original version had been sung a male. That enabled me to enjoy it without reservation.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfX2_ZHlQoM]

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@HenryAWallace She's amazing. Did you know she's one of Ravi Shankar's daughters?

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

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enhydra lutris's picture

@HenryAWallace
The Maya Long Count system establishes an absolute chronology in which any given date is unique, such as December 21, 2012, in the Gregorian system. The Long Count calendar keeps track of the days that have passed since the mythical starting date of the Maya creation, August 11, 3114 BCE.
A quote not sourced afaict

Go here: https://maya.nmai.si.edu/calendar/maya-calendar-converter

Long Count Date
13.0.5.14.8
13 baktun
13 X 144,000 days = 1,872,000 days
0 katun
0 X 7,200 days = 0 days
5 tun
5 X 360 days = 1,800 days
14 uinal
14 X 20 days = 280 days
8 k'in
8 X 1 day = 8 days
Tzolk'in Date: 12 Lamat

Haab Date: 1 Ch'en

Lord of the Night: G9

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

@enhydra lutris

to the solar year, which is what the Julian and Gregorian rule calendars attempted to reflect and which the observational calendars of the Egyptians and Iranians reflect more closely than rule calendars.

And then, there is the theory that Mexico had been visited by Egyptians, but I don't know what to think about that.

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enhydra lutris's picture

@HenryAWallace @HenryAWallace
is more attuned to more complex cycles.

EDIT: Should be "tun", not "uinal".

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

@enhydra lutris

EDIT: Should be "tun", not "uinal".

At first glance, I saw "urinal."

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CS in AZ's picture

I couldn’t find the part on Roman and Greek gods — was that in Dress to Kill? — but I have to see if I can still share a clip from that show, which is his best ever, in my opinion, and we’ve seen all his recorded performances and even seen him live once. Here’s one clip from it that I really like. It’s showing in the preview, hopefully you can view it. Let’s see...

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@CS in AZ Got it! I guess it hasn't yet been stamped out entirely.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Lookout's picture

...and the days start at different times. Moon-ths and weeks and days all conflicted between the sun and the moon....as we moved from hunters and gathers to farmers. Always fun to ponder time and its keeping. Welcome to Sunday... the day here was sunny and beautiful... hope yours is too!

Have a good one no matter the weather.

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

lotlizard's picture

that a mathematician, John Horton Conway, found for calculating in one’s head what day of the week any given date is, without looking at a calendar?

The basis is pretty simple.

1. In every year, the last day of February falls on a certain day of the week, which Conway called the “doomsday” for that year. For example, the “doomsday” for 2018 is Wednesday and the “doomsday” for 2019 will be Thursday. The “doomsday” advances by one day of the week in non-leap years, but by two days of the week in leap years. So the “doomsday” for 2020, a leap year, will be Saturday.

2. (Even-numbered months) By convenient coincidence, 4/4, 6/6, 8/8, 10/10, and 12/12 all also fall on “doomsday.”

3. (Odd-numbered months) (a) Also by convenient coincidence, 5/9, 9/5, 7/11, and 11/7 all also fall on “doomsday.” Mnemonic: “working 9-to-5 at the 7-11.” (b) 1/3 falls on “doomsday” in non-leap years, and 1/4 in leap years. (c) Since the last day of February (think of it as “March 0”) falls on “doomsday,” so does 3/7.

4. From that reference date for the given month, you can, by adding or subtracting sevens and counting forward or backward, easily, after a bit of practice, work out in your head the day of the week of the actual date you want.

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