Open Thread WE 16 NOV 22 ~ trades


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Far from wishing to awaken the artist in the pupil prematurely, the teacher considers it his first task to make him a skilled artisan with sovereign control of his craft.

Eugen Herrigel

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Hola 99'ers. Today seems like a hands-on day. Have been hammering-out ideas about
the role of educators in the development of young the ones' futures. Hmm, let's try this.

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Ludovico Einaudi

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Where I ended up in the process was to rough-out what may be considered as an
approach to a 'well rounded' education that will be needed in the future collapse of
technology or otherwise. Some things came to mind. Here is the Cliff notes version ..

A vision of a more constructive future

What are some alternatives to address the present lack and future needs of a functioning
economy in this country?
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Primary and secondary education ..
Career tracks
Re-define higher education – expressive arts and literature
Computers programmers versus screw driver operators
Community college programs should be funded as public education
Keeping up with China as a challenge or a mutually beneficial program.

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I leave out most of the verbiage to compress ideas into manageable
thought bites. Sorry for the shorthand, but perhaps y'all can help fill
in the blanks with me?

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public / private partnership ie: (need to fill in the examples on this)

Bill Gates kindergarten programming initiative
apprenticeship programs with local businesses – example NEB, Island institute
business sponsored community clean-up for juvies – example Stuart

Basic life skills subject curriculum the goal is to provide a well rounded exposure -

balancing checkbook / budgeting / personal finance / bartering
cooking skills / nutrition / diet / food effects on body / utensils
personal health / hygiene / sex ed / alternative health souces, first aid, exercise
geography – N,S,E,W / reading maps / borders
reading / writing / basic math: +,-, * , /
critical and analytical thinking skills and problem solving
social skills – speaking, listening, cooperation, acceptance
psychological balance, accepted behavior vs. individual expression
realistic history – indigenous, domestic and international
earth science – gardening, climate change, pollution, resource limitations
political and religious comparisons
laws, rules, and social conditioning, group behavior
aggressions, wars and consequences, prisons, law enforcement
survival techniques – making a fire, building shelter, water and food sources
tool use and care – hand tools, power tools, mechanical and electrical tools
shelter design, repair and maintenance – paint, caulk, joinery, insulation
shopping basics – retail, second hand, flea markets, online markets
transportation alternatives, migration issues

These are only some of the skills I would see in the kids toolbox. Too much?

What do you see as being a useful approach to to getting the next generation
ready to take on the challenges of growing aware in this age? I'm sure there are
many categories I left out or skipped over. There is some overlap, and I envision
this as being a progressive framework. Starting with simple lessons in the younger
grades, then develop the branching trees as the kids progress.

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Walnut sculpture Fear by Andreas Senoner
https://www.andreassenoner.com

andreas_senoner_fear-640x467@2x.jpg
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Open thread, so let your brains fire away ..

harmony.jpeg
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Hey, good morning! What's happening?

This is what happed in the past ..

1519 City of Havana moved to its current location to avoid mosquito infestations
1676 1st colonial prison organized in Nantucket, Massachusetts
1798 Kentucky becomes first state to nullify an act of Congress
1871 National Rifle Association is first chartered in the State of New York
1907 Oklahoma becomes the United States 46th state
1914 Federal Reserve System formally opens
1925 American Association for Advancement of Atheism forms (NY)
1938 LSD (Lysergic acid diethylamide) is first synthesized by Swiss chemist Dr. Albert Hofmann at the Sandoz Laboratories in Basel, Switzerland
1981 President Reagan decides on a covert plan to block the Cuban aid to Nicaragua and El Salvador

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~

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[video:https://youtu.be/7yc7ELpnFNo]

Chasing Love
Bert Jansch & Jacqui McShee

you have to click the youtube link to listen (sorry bout dat)

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mhagle's picture

Wouldn't it be wonderful if schools included all of those areas?

I'd like to put another caveat to your well-rounded education. This system will truly understand and accommodate dyslexia (reading issues of all flavors), dysgraphia, color-blindness . . . and might include light sensitivity and other conditions.

Last month my son finished his GED testing. We pulled him out of public school at the beginning of 6th grade. He was still a non-reader at that point and the school had no means to accommodate him. What would have happened to him had he stayed?

For both he and his sister, reading was not useful until the end of 7th grade and that was still limited to subjects of interest. As most of you know, dyslexic people cannot do phonics well, or at all, and words are stored as pictures in a different part of the brain. When enough word pictures are stored, then you can read. Both children are good readers now.

They are a minority of the population, but still a large minority. When I was last a teacher, I counted 53 of my 114 students who had issues with dyslexia. That's 46 percent. They could not follow written step-by-step instructions well. (Nor can I.) However, in the computer lab where I taught, if I showed them the skills, handed them a document, and said "reproduce this document," they could all do it.

So there is this large part of the population who cannot read-to-learn, especially in the lower grades. Their brains are not ready to do it. There is no magical reading program that I know of that will help them memorize these word pictures. It seems to eventually come from exposure. The much-touted Orton-Gillingham method deals with phonemes and helps with phonics physically, but does not guarantee words are stored in memory. I am of the opinion that teaching reading to dyslexic children in the lower grades is a waste of time. They have to have exposure, but it needs to be understood it's just not going to happen until their brains are ready. So they need accommodations. It's the story that is important after all, not how you come by it.

My daughter had a third-grade teacher who read "Overcoming Dyslexia" by Dr. Sally Shaywitz and followed it. This teacher taught her how to manage dyslexia and since my daughter did not have dysgraphia and could do well in math, she became an A student. The stress and anxiety became too much in high school, so she went the GED route as well and started college at 17. She had fun for 2 1/2 years studying art, music, theater, business, and drafting. Now she is going back to major in environmental science. She and my son will start college classes in January. He would like to be a history teacher.

It was a pretty big job to make sure my son got his k-12 education. He worked hard and scored high on the GED tests. What about kids whose parents are not retired educators? What do they do?

Plus, it is a trend to expect children to accomplish more younger and younger. When I was looking for materials to use (we mostly used Khan Academy which is excellent and free), I thought . . . "these third graders are never going to remember this stuff!" I am even opposed to the dual-credit thing. My last principal told me his daughter graduated with a teaching certificate in agriculture at age 20. He told her, "you are going back for your masters and not teaching high school ag at age 20!"

After the kids go back to school, I am thinking about asking our local school counselor if I could come and talk to the elementary teachers. I think if they understood that they have smart kids in their classes who aren't going to be able to read, it will help them accommodate those children.

Thanks for the OT!

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Marilyn

"Make dirt, not war." eyo

@mhagle

of a convoluted journey to educate young minds with special needs
thanks Marilyn for sharing your success story!

we are finding here that kids on the Autism/ Asperger's spectrum (there are many)
also require tailored lessons to hold their attentions
some of these kids are brilliant in specific areas
there is no need to drag them thru the 'no child left behind'
corridor ie: teaching to pass standardized testing
except, perhaps, education funding is keyed to this metric?

hope your discussing lessons learned with elementary teachers works

Q

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mhagle's picture

@QMS

Of course, they need to be accommodated too. Who are we leaving out?

"No child left behind" leaves scores of children behind.

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Marilyn

"Make dirt, not war." eyo

@mhagle

Yes, in each district. Multiply that by the number of school districts and it is a huge number.
Each district has its own approach, usually state mandated. Used to be called special ed.
Now, I don't know what it is referred to. A type of 'one size fits all' approach to separate the
special-needs kids from the (easily programmable) majority of students?

Way back when, there were specific programs available to gifted students (not always in
the district) that parents would pay for to accelerate learning. Not so much anymore.
If the folks have the means, private schools fill a void. Otherwise, it is whatever the state
provides for everyone else. A weird kind of dynamic imo. Except to go your route in home
schooling. But not everyone has your educational training. Mixed results.

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usefewersyllables's picture

in management skills that focused on what the instructor claimed were the three types of learning pathways: visual, auditory, and kinaesthetic. It gave me some pretty decent insights on the team I was managing at the time. But what I really enjoyed was applying those concepts to try to gain some insights into myself. When I took their little sorting quiz, I scored almost dead in the middle of the triangle, with equal weight on all three items. I consider myself really fortunate to have that gift.

I found that music is the best way to think about it. I can read music perfectly well, but it basically annoys me to have to mess with it. I'd rather hear the music to reproduce it. And once I go through the physical motions enough to commit it to muscle memory, I can reproduce it very nicely. The paper then becomes irrelevant very quickly. On the other hand, I know musicians who are slaves to paper. They can sightread anydamnedthing and play it beautifully. But without the paper, they are lost, and improvisation just doesn't come naturally. Their inner musician doesn't sing the notes to them- they see the patterns on the paper and their fingers know how to do it.

A lot of musicians fall into that side of the triangle that joins the visual and the kinaesthetic, as a result. That's very much like the folks you describe above, where the word-pictures have to build up enough to allow reading comprehension to occur. You can lecture a person all day long who falls on that axis, and they will get little out of it. The auditory path just isn't their preferred/primary input mechanism. If I personally am out of the center of the triangle, I'm closer to the auditory-kinaesthetic axis. That is why I prefer hearing-doing, and why I really enjoy musical improvisation. My wife gets so pissed at me for that, because she prefers seeing-doing: she is a brilliant vocalist and can sight-sing flyspecks, but ultimately she feels that she needs the paper to define the musical path.

These concepts also apply to how I read text. I see the words on the page or screen, but what is actually happening in my head is that my inner narrator is *speaking* them to me. I don't really feel that I see the words as such. But that nice dialog that I always have going with the voices in my head translates them for me, and they get into my noggin as if I was actually hearing them spoken. That was a downright startling realization.

The folks who have the most difficult time are the ones who fall into the corners of the triangle, where only one of the paths really works for them. The purely-kinaesthetic types have by far the hardest time of all, because they have to be physically *doing* something to learn from it. Trap them immobile at a desk and talk at them, and they will become bored and disengaged very quickly. In a management sense, sometimes the best way to communicate with a primarily-kinaesthetic learner is to say "Walk with me", and give them the task of keeping up with you physically while you try to engage the less-preferred visual or auditory path (whichever works best for them). These are the folks who, once they've physically performed a specific task, master it quickly. It's the doing of it that matters, not the hearing or seeing. In musical terms, they are generally called "drummers". (;-)

This is really a fascinating and incredibly complex topic, and one size most definitely does not fit all. What a cool OT!

Note to the humor-impaired: am drummer, primarily. Don't hurt me...

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Twice bitten, permanently shy.

@usefewersyllables

thanks for sharing the associations with your management lessons
I can see where your triangle works with a variety of interpretations

recently interviewed for a position to become a mentor to younger /
inexperienced candidates in a company sponsored training program.
brought up the fact that we all do indeed learn in different ways
mentioned some approaches: white board/lecture, hands-on,
printed paper format, repetition and peer imitation.

We are sorely lacking in new talent development in the marine
industry. Local educational resources are not enough.
(see NEB above in the main text under public/private partnership)

thanks for contributing USF!

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... a lot of sympathy for people who have things like that happen to them. The reason I have spent so much time developing home handyman/maintenance skills and do as much as I can myself is that it’s gotten almost impossibly hard to find someone who will do the work properly. In a lot of cases, cutting corners won’t show up for a long time.

from a contributor at NC via Yves

In the long run, these shortages will become Revenge of the Deplorables. As my San Francisco contact suggests, well trained tradesmen who develop a reputation for doing good work will likely in not all that long to be able to command top dollar. But if even that shift still fails to attract more young people to go into these professions, we’ll also wind up with more rotting infrastructure since some won’t be able to afford the cost of timely maintenance.

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2022/11/reader-sanity-check-erosion-of-t...

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somewhat on theme here

caucus99percenter
November 3, 2022 at 10:33 pm

I don’t know about Waldorf schools in the U.S., but the Waldorfschulen in Germany have an expansive view of education that includes giving kids all kinds of hands-on experience with tools, arts and crafts, animal husbandry, horticulture, and other real-life practical skills.

https://www.waldorfeducation.org/waldorf-education

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enhydra lutris's picture

A couple of things I felt I had to add.

Everybody needs to learn empiricism as a basis for everything else and it needs to be refined and enhanced as they get older and older.

Everybody needs to know how to wire a switch, electrical outlet, light socket and lamp, but not everybody needs to know how to build a radio or fix a TV. Everybody should be able to frame a shed, but not how to make a guitar or piano.

My dad once said, and I'm sure it is true, if you learn to weld, you'll never starve, especially if, at some point, you buy your own torches. Still seems to be true today.

be well and have a good one

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

girls were steered towards typing, and home economics, to be the wife that could cook, sew, and be either a good secretary or good housewife. Guys were in shop classes and learning how to do basic repairs on cars, basic welding, basic electrician work. We offered FFA, Future Farmers of America, for farming and livestock basics, and industrial arts, which taught drafting.
At the same time, we were required to read Hemingway and Shakespeare, memorize poems, take art classes, music classes, and get the basics of math, biology, and sometimes chemistry.
Texas trended toward churning out students to work, starting in the '90s or so.
I recently had a college student intern at my office. She was brilliant. She couldn't spell without spellcheck. She could not write a sentence or paragraph with good grammar. I actually read some of her college level essay answers to tests. The professors would overlook these things, give her an A, and write, "Wow"!
I just sent off two job reference document to two local schools. I wish her well, hope she gets a job, and hope that exposure to educated staff members will improve her deficits. I still hold on to the belief exposure will help her put some polish.
I have a problem with teaching young people to work, conditioning them that education serves no other purpose but to get them a job. Their lives deserve the enrichment education offered me and my generation.
I was the first girl student to get into an industrial arts class. I refused to take typing, informing the school counselor I intended to be the boss, hire someone else to do the tying. I was 12 years old.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp

we were somewhat of an outlier. The guys were instructed in home ec for two semesters.
I learned to make cookies, but I was also the only guy in typing. Glad I took it,
as the keyboard is a friendlier strata due to that early instruction.

The gals also were made to take "shop" for two semesters. Being a small school, shop was a
mish-mash of mechanics, drafting, banging on metal and whatever the teacher had
resources for. I did a copper Fu Manchu impression by rubbing sticks on a tracing.
Don't ask where that came from. (we didn't have art classes).

It seems odd anyone can get thru primary without the ability to spell or construct
sentences, but these are different times.

Thanks for your addition!

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@QMS or drafter, as it was later called. I went mechanical, should have gone piping. Oil, Texas, blah blah...
I took a typing summer class at home, which, today, if offered, would be online. I learned to type just because it was an easy high school credit.
Good that you learned how to bake a cookie! Let me know when you cook up your next vanilla cookie with white chocolate chips and Macadamia nuts, ok?
Thanks for the OT!

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

mhagle's picture

@on the cusp

was pretty well-rounded like that. In the 70s.

As for your intern, dyslexic people cannot spell worth a darn. It is all by memory. My son hit spelling hard. We made lists of words he missed and he typed them many times until they were memorized. He was able to learn grammar from Khan Academy. It was all hard work. Maybe your intern is just another smart dyslexic kid who fell between the cracks?

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Marilyn

"Make dirt, not war." eyo

@mhagle My paralegal was multi-degreed in special ed, and she, too, thought the intern was just poorly educated, both at school and at her home. It was more a social thing. She grew up poor, parents had no education, no relatives had education, and none of their friends and associates did, either. She had not heard correct grammar being spoken by anyone, and had read nothing more than little short stories pushed by school. I told her to read books. Just read, see where commas are placed, where apostrophes are placed, and how words and phrase are constructed. I suggested Twain, Hemingway, for starters. She is a wonderful young woman with great potential. No idea how to dress for occasions, how to properly hold a knife and fork. Her environment was waitresses and log haulers.
In other words, she had no exposure to anything above waitress and log hauler mentality and social skills. She was awed by the environment in my office, often accompanied me to court, just to watch and learn. She picked up on how my paralegal spoke, how I spoke, and began to improve on her verbal skills. I wish I could have her with me 2 hours a day!
All this said, I am "country" with 10 years of college and a doctorate, and a Mom who was blue blood.
Thanks, Mom.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

mhagle's picture

@on the cusp

What a wonderful thing you have done for her. You have set her on a good path. It is also true that home life does matter when it comes to grammar, exposure to literature, etc. My son has been watching documentaries and political analysis for all of these years so he has a tremendous spoken vocabulary.

"That's preposterous mother!"

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Marilyn

"Make dirt, not war." eyo

@mhagle the 15 months she worked for me will positively influence her life. My hope is that she will complete her college education, and set a standard for her yr old son.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Lookout's picture

But education in the US is sorely lacking. The purpose is to insure a compliant rather than thinking population. I worked for years on school reform. If I was education tsar I would begin by allowing each community to design their curriculum similar to the 8 year study. I've always been a proponent of in school businesses. Some schools build computers, others run a copy shop, some build things like picnic tables and shed for sale. We all learn better by doing, and students should be doing real things.

Buy in is essential, Teachers, Students, and parents need to cooperatively work on creating a learning organization which fits their unique community. The idea of a one fits all school design is absurd. It is a bottom up rather than top down approach which is needed.

My 2 cents.

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

My middle one struggles mightily with school. Pretty sure he was dyslexic, but no one told us/caught it early. Took him until late 7th grade to catch up to grade level reading, and I'm pretty sure he only caught up then bc they decreased standards after covid. Sad. He absolutely hates school so we are going to push him towards vo-tech in high school next year. My oldest has always had an easy time with school, but after covid seems to lack any real motivation to complete his work. I'm honestly at a loss and don't know what to do to help them. We have always preached the importance of a good education, as both my husband and I were raised with that mentality. I was one of the first people in my family to graduate college, and my husband is the same. I guess coming from the poor country folk, I was taught early that you'll never "get ahead" without education.

What I see from my children's schools is disappointing. Seems no pressure from teachers to perform or complete work or to push the kids to expand their thinking. Lack of funding for schools doesn't help, but it seems like that is the only thing the schools care about these days. The almighty $$$$$. I don't remember it being like that when I was in school at all, and that wasn't so long ago really...but then again, maybe it was sigh.

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If it was easy, everyone would do it.