Open Thread Tuesday 05-12-15

Good morning 99percenters!

Spin, Spin, Spin. The War for your Mind wages on. The only one who can slog through the bullshit is you yourself. Here I present different perspectives for your judgement. Make sure to read the first article, thanks Big Al.

Seymour Hersh’s “Zero Truth Thirty” Article Fixes the Narrative of the BS “bin Laden Raid” Story

H/T Big Al
Seymour Hersh was once one of the good guys. Today, he’s joined the ranks of the has-beens and the sell-outs.

Anyone can get something wrong. That’s not what Seymour Hersh did here. The last “clarifying statement” to fix the narrative

“Within days, some of the early exaggerations and distortions had become obvious and the Pentagon issued a series of clarifying statements.” Seymour Hersh

He penned a propaganda article about how ‘Obama lied” about the early morning hour Seal Team 6 raid in Pakistan that supposedly killed Osama bin Laden. That’s click-bait. Seymour claims Obama’s lies are nothing more than his refusal to admit how intimately involved the Pakistani intelligence services (ISI) were in the “raid” and of course the official story they came out with in the days right after the raid.

That’s bullshit.

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Also see this.

Hersh: Obama lied. Obama: No, I didn’t. NBC: Yep, you did. And again just now.

Obama and his regime are on the defensive as Hersh reveals the many, many lies (some of which led to the deaths of innocent people) that Obama told about his assassination of bin Laden.

Hersh’s report details those lies, and concludes: ““High-level lying … remains the modus operandi of US policy, along with secret prisons, drone attacks, Special Forces night raids, bypassing the chain of command, and cutting out those who might say no.”

Seemingly unable to help himself, and as if trying to offer immediate confirmation of Hersh’s analysis, Obama announced that “Pakistanis did not know” about the US raid.

NBC then confirmed that very aspect of Hersh’s report, saying yes, a “Pakistani official helped the US find bin Laden”.

Seymour Hersh vs. Judy Miller: The truth about Bin Laden’s death — and the anonymous government sources The New York Times is delighted to print as “truth”

Desperate rush to discredit Osama bin Laden bombshell perfectly sums up the media's slavish relationship with power

Well, well. Another grand American narrative, brimming with the triumphalist heroism of people we put into uniforms, melts like ice cream in the summer sun. No more credit to the commander-in-chief for the stealthy, nerves-of-steel manhunt and point-blank murder of Osama bin Laden back in 2011. It turns out to have been a matter of bribes, intelligence feeds, a stage-set raid, American betrayals—but of course—and last-minute chaos in Washington as to which concocted tale of derring-do would shine brightest in the light.

Let us console ourselves with the thought that the operation was a crime under international law anyway.

News of this latest myth-spinning chicanery comes to us from the inimitable Seymour Hersh, whose intricately detailed and carefully reasoned account was published Sunday in the London Review of Books. It is first-rate craft, one of Hersh’s better explorations into the reality that is like our air: We breathe it but cannot see it. Read Hersh’s piece here. Remarkable stuff—which is why our most powerful media will aim to discredit it.

It seems that square-jawed Navy SEALs with those high-tech night goggles that practically starred in “Zero Dark Thirty,” Hollywood’s post-event propaganda film, were more or less led to bin Laden’s door. All they had to do was kick it down and negotiate with extreme prejudice, as the CIA used to describe these things.


Author Reported Essentials of Hersh’s bin Laden Story in 2011 — With Seemingly Different Sources

R.J. Hillhouse, a former professor, Fulbright fellow and novelist whose writing on intelligence and military outsourcing has appeared in the Washington Post and New York Times, made the same main assertions in 2011 about the death of Osama bin Laden as Seymour Hersh’s new story in the London Review of Books — apparently based on different sources than those used by Hersh.

Bin Laden was killed by Navy SEALs on May 2, 2011. Three months later, on August 7, Hillhouse posted a story on her blog “The Spy Who Billed Me” stating that (1) the U.S. did not learn about bin Laden’s location from tracking an al Qaeda courier, but from a member of the Pakistani intelligence service who wanted to collect the $25 million reward the U.S. had offered for bin Laden; (2) Saudi Arabia was paying Pakistan to keep bin Laden under the equivalent of house arrest; (3) Pakistan was pressured by the U.S. to stand down its military to allow the U.S. raid to proceed unhindered; and (4) the U.S. had planned to claim that bin Laden had been killed in a drone strike in the border regions of Afghanistan and Pakistan, but was forced to abandon this when one of the Navy SEAL helicopters crashed.

Hersh’s article makes the same key claims about the bin Laden raid, with this description of his sources:

The major US source for the account that follows is a retired senior intelligence official who was knowledgeable about the initial intelligence about bin Laden’s presence in Abbottabad. He also was privy to many aspects of the Seals’ training for the raid, and to the various after-action reports. Two other US sources, who had access to corroborating information, have been longtime consultants to the Special Operations Command.

Seymour Hersh Accuses Obama of ‘High-Level Lying’ About Bin Laden Raid

Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Seymour Hersh has put forth a series of explosive allegations about the Obama administration’s role in the killing of Osama bin Laden in 2011. In a long essay in the London Review of Books, Hersh accuses the administration of “high-level lying” in describing the al-Qaida founder’s death and what preceded and followed it. The essay cites a source who claims that bin Laden’s presence in the Abbottabad compound was known to senior Pakistani intelligence officials all along, as they were holding him prisoner there. Hersh also claims that bin Laden’s whereabouts were divulged to the CIA by a former Pakistani intelligence officer in exchange for a large reward.

The White House and the CIA have blasted the allegations, dismissing them as “utter nonsense.” But if Hersh is correct, then almost everything we know about bin Laden’s death is false, especially the events sensationally depicted in the blockbuster movie “Zero Dark Thirty.”

Each of the major allegations made by Hersh against the Obama administration is listed here, courtesy of The Stranger’s Christopher Frizzelle.

Seymour Hersh: Obama's Entire Account Of bin Laden's Death Is One Big Lie; This Is What Really Happened

The last time famed US investigative journalist Seymour Hersh made news in the global media was with his massive, 5000-word expose from December of 2013 "Whose sarin?" revealing the true motives behind the Syrian near-war of 2013 including what we had said from the very beginning: the very professionally created YouTube clips showing the consequences of what was said to have been an Assad poison gas attack, were nothing but a fake (subsequent reports identified the propaganda source as Rami Abdul Rahman of the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, whose entire operation has been funded by an unidentified European country.)

Fast forward to today when in a report whose word count doubles his previous record for the London Review of Books, Hersh targets a topic near and dear to the hearts of many Americans: the story of the capture and death of Osama bin Laden. Or rather the completely false and, according to Hersh, fabricated story, one made up entirely by the US president and spoon fed for popular consumption with the aid of a Hollywood blockbuster whose entire plot line is, if Hersh is correct, one big lie as well.

In a nutshell, and one really needs to read Hersh's magnum opus as no amount of abbreviation will do it justice, Hersh accuses Obama of not only taking credit for the al Qaeda leader's death, but fabricating the story that resulted from what has been widely reported to have been a Navy seal incursion into bin Laden's Abbottabad compound in Pakistan. As a result the military and intelligence communities were forced to scramble and then corroborate the president’s version of events.

Hersh uses several sources for his refutation of the official narrative, including Asad Durrani, who was head of the Pakistani Inter-Service Intelligence agency in the early 1990s, as well as various American sources, of which the major source "is a retired senior intelligence official who was knowledgeable about the initial intelligence about bin Laden’s presence in Abbottabad. He also was privy to many aspects of the Seals’ training for the raid, and to the various after-action reports."

John Lennon - Gimme Some Truth

Little Feat - Fool Yourself

J.J Cale - Lies

Elvin Bishop - Don't Lie To Me

Allen Toussaint - On Your Way Down

Billy Joel - We Didn't Start the Fire

The Wizard of Oz - Pay No Attention to that Man Behind the Curtain

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of work today. Don't be a sheeple, people.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

In my job, comparing storylines and narratives is essential to critical thinking and analysis. Here, you laid it all out for us. Patterns form. Pathways burn through the miasma. Logic, motive, simplicity, and truth emerge.

Nicely done. Competing news stories that follow a specific theme also enhances one's media analysis abilities, which is crucial in a society where extreme free speech is used as a propaganda tool..

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
OLinda's picture

Thank you for the differing summaries on bin Laden, Johnny. I'll have a little to say on this later, but I need some coffee.

It's trash day and that always gets me up and outside early. Looks like it's going to be a nice day. No rain, no snow. Maybe high 60s F.

When the snow melted off of the branches, some that had been bent over nearly touching the ground, picked themselves up and straightened out. !!
Smile

I have just a few small ones to deal with and I might be able to do it myself. There are a couple tree branches up high that are pretty bent over nearly touching the house that I can't reach, but I think they'll be okay for awhile. It's surprising how good it looks today after how bad it looked yesterday.

Hope everyone is well this fine morning.

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Another day, another dollar.... off to meetings today, too. Think of me while you are having fun.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Big Al's picture

Lone Wolf Terrorism is in the news. DHS says we're all in danger and a Lone Wolf could strike at any
moment.

https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/241562-dhs-secretary-lone...

Kind of reminds me of 2011.

"Obama says "lone wolf terrorist" biggest U.S. threat"

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/16/us-usa-obama-security-idUSTRE7...

Lather, rinse, repeat.

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OLinda's picture

Well, how scared am I supposed to be? Where is the color coded threat alert?? I hope I am doing it right and am scared enough.

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mimi's picture

Just tell me one thing: Why didn't they catch Osama bin Laden alive? They could have proven if it's really him afterwards.

From Seymour Hersh's report:

And you have to kill him, or there is no deal,’ the retired official said

Why would there be no deal? How could the US go into such a deal? I am still not through reading the Hersh article to the end.

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Big Al's picture

And Hersh's report seems to cover each of the "conspiracy theory" points regarding bin Laden's death.
The reason he was killed and not captured, the reason there is no body, the reason that bin Laden was out of
sight for all those years, it seems Hersh's article is attempting to squash all the conspiracy theories including the
big one which is the very real possibility that bin Laden was dead for almost ten years prior to this event.

Hersh admits to getting stories wrong before. He admits that using a single unidentified source can be troublesome
so maybe he didn't go over to the dark side, maybe he's just been bamboozled. Or maybe he's correct, there is that option
although I don't believe that. The story is too convenient and doesn't add up. As some other commenters commented, it's
actually kind of sloppy how it tries to tie everything together.

No body, no pictures, 22 Seal Team members dead, ("Twenty two members of Navy SEAL Team 6 died in Afghanistan shortly after Vice President Joe Biden leaked that their unit was responsible for the death of Osama Bin Laden."), no proof bin Laden was alive, a fake DNA test,
and they made a MOVIE!

No, it's just not believable.

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mimi's picture

kind of credibility with regards to its foreign policy. It never was trusted much to begin with. Since 2000 it's nothing but a downward spiral. I guess nobody will be honest with the US anymore.

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OLinda's picture

The original story given, a dangerous, daring raid by the brave, elite Seals, unknown even to the Pakistanis, the vast collection of computers/files, valuable intelligence info confiscated, our gutsy, brilliant decision maker commander-in-chief, the made for tv movie burial at sea, etc. sure is a good one though isn't it?

(Insert popcorn and clapping hands here for this great story!) Smile

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mimi's picture

for others it's not a popcorn munching thingy to be enjoyed on your couch though. That's the only problem I have with it. I know probably no one can handle it without resorting to sarcasm or cynicism. No offense meant, OLinda. I can understand criticism of President Obama, I can't understand hate. And I never know, how far people's emotions go, when they formulate their criticism in biting cynicism.

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JayRaye's picture

where are you seeing the hate, I am beginning to see you making a lot of efforts lately to censor the speech of others here at C99.

why?

why can't you disagree without impugning the motives of others who participate here?

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Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons

joe shikspack's picture

about these discussions. first, nobody here hates obama. it's just not appropriate. yes he lies. this is new for a politician?

more seriously, he murders people and is instrumental in perpetuating and strengthening the hold of an authoritarian state. but, he's just a puppet, after all.

the way to deal with war criminals like obama is not to hate them because the things that they do violate our standards of decency, humanity and law. hating them is counterproductive. it leads to reducing society to an indecent, inhuman, lawless state.

the way to deal with these things is to motivate social concern about these issues and bring the powers of law to bear. this is always a tough job. history is rife with the actions of decent people standing up against immoral authority and losing.

sometimes the decent people win for a while, though - and that is what we work for until the meek inherit the earth.

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mimi's picture

the way to deal with these things is to motivate social concern about these issues and bring the powers of law to bear. this is always a tough job. history is rife with the actions of decent people standing up against immoral authority and losing.

Sometimes the decent people win for a while, though - and that is what we work for until the meek inherit the earth.

I understand your work as decent people standing up against immoral authority. I am just so tired of doing it with cynicism. That's what I can't handle. I can't find comfort anymore in political comedy, snark or satire. I used to be able to enjoy that like everybody else. But for some reason I don't quite understand myself, I am getting so tired at it that I act out verbally. I can't follow it anymore on TV and on blogs' comments without losing it.

I am sorry for that, I think as people say "I need a time out".

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Pluto's Republic's picture

Snark and cynicism are used to "shock" people out of their complacency and sleepwalking. It only works when it is based in the truth. That's why the GOP, for example, cannot make jokes and fail utterly at humor. They are not positioned in facts and numbers and the actual connections between events.

I think Jonathan Swift was among the sociopolitical satirists, who in 1729 wrote an editorial entitled:

A Modest Proposal

For Preventing The Children of Poor People in Ireland
From Being Aburden to Their Parents or Country, and
For Making Them Beneficial to The Public

In it, he proposed that the Irish eat their own children to deal with famine. It was a way of shaming the sociopaths who did not want the government to help them.

A didactic approach to political issues can no longer be "heard" by society, which has been overstimulated by the media and hardened against the most grotesque injustices and human atrocities inflicted by their own society upon others. A brain dead, apathetic, uninformed society is a major part of the problem in the US, where democracy is a sham. The voters have no idea what is going on in the world. They have no understanding of the issues facing them or of the long-term consequences of the "solutions" they vote for. They do not have the brain plasticity to run the scenarios in their own minds to determine the outcome. Completely unable to reason, they vote for corporate slogans. They are the ones who created the corporate-owned government. They keep it alive. The very act of voting in the US Federal elections is a deliberate act of personal annihilation, indeed.

So, we speak the truth. And it is encapsulated in satire because it is the only way it can be heard. It is the only known prophylactic against propaganda and brainwashing.

It can wear down the very sensitive souls. Jonathan Swift's very graphic suggestion that people eat their own children was a kick it the stomach of readers. But, it was effective. And it endured.

I must protect myself from all sorts of news and media. Like animal cruelty, for example. It damages me. So I take evasive action. If the TV is on, I keep the remote control on my person, just in case one of those ads comes on…. and causes me harm.

I think you are right to protect yourself by avoiding input that causes you pain.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
mimi's picture

to issues of quarrels about racism between ethnic groups. I hang in between a lot of chairs, so to speak, and am rather willing to excuse some human failure than may be others. I also don't know and understand the way you describe many Americans to be apathetic and uninformed. I simply didn't meet them so much in person and lived very isolated (not at my own doing though) in the US. Ten years of snark, humor, cynicism just reading online about issues that are pretty close to my heart has made me overly tired and lately also so mad that I leashed out. That's why I need to step away and it is so difficult to do that for me.

I guess that's an addict's situation. Thanks for your words.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

These are examples:

News outlets that lie to viewers about facts over the public airwaves, especially those that are life issues that viewers must vote about. (Reagan revoking the Fairness Doctrine in 1989 was the beginning of this practice.) This is illegal in most modern nations.

Allowing the new outlets to try a court case with prejudice in the newspaper. This destroys the justice system. It is illegal in most modern nations, including the UK.

Holding a Mohammed cartoon contest in a public place. This is mocking hate speech against a growing minority of Americans.

These are what Americans call "freedom."

How richly they deserve the outcomes of their irresponsible public spewing — which are apparent throughout US society. Rampant injustice. Massive propaganda and misinformation that undermines democracy. Home-grown terrorism.

(The unlimited First Amendment is a delightful companion to the unlimited Second Amendment. Together, they will hurry along the empire's fall.)

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
shaharazade's picture

holding my breath about any amendment bringing about this empire fall. The powers the be have managed to circumvent or delete any laws or rights that interfere with the inevitable way forward. Quaint antique pieces of paper that cannot be enforced are nothing that this lot will allow to stop the inevitable way forward. This will take the ordinary people of the world rising up and stopping this shit. The election in the UK makes me think that this isn't going to happen any time soon. I have no reason to think that the powers that be globally are going to fall unless humans globally reject the insane madness they call reality or as Axelrod called this 'the world as we find it. When drones, bombing. black holes of despair and death , CIA covert and overt warfare and military might are projected and cheered as victory and the giant vampire squid on humanities face is still there cause it's doing god's work, how can you say any of what is going down will hurry along the empires fall. Sorry for my negativity but I think perhaps the guillotines might have to be rolled out again. Extreme free speech is nothing but another fictitious political distraction brought to us all by the purveyors of fear and propaganda who welcome and cultivate the distraction.

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shaharazade's picture

crude faked up badly edited videos that the Bushies kept broadcasting of Bin Lauden from various caves aimed at scaring the pants off the already hysterical American people. There was also at that time videos of supposed Afghanistan training camps of 'terrist's who are gonna kill yer family' that had the same masked 'terrists' doing exercises the same loop over and over. My bs or CT meter depending on ones pov, has been on full since the Bush selection followed by 9/11 . Who knows what scenario went down, other then the game players who are not about to enlighten us. I have an easier time making sense out of the Dr. Who storyline arc's then this load of bollocks we're fed to this day regarding both the war on terra and the freaking global Ponzi scam with it's cliffs of fiscal disaster we were 'saved' from. The scary looking military choppers that flew low over Portland last week to protect Obama at his Nike speech were not black but army khaki. Say didn't Big Dog Clinton blow his chance to oft Osama on a Dubai golf course or was that just another figment of my Ct imaginings My mistake it looks like it was not in Dubai but Kandahar in 1998.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-bill-clinton-osama-bin-...

“I’m just saying, you know, if I were Osama bin Laden ... He’s a very smart guy. I spent a lot of time thinking about him. And I nearly got him once....
I nearly got him. And I could have killed him, but I would have to destroy a little town called Kandahar in Afghanistan and kill 300 innocent women and children, and then I would have been no better than him.” ...And so I didn’t do it,” the former commander in chief says.

But wait, Dubai does figure into the Where's Osama saga...
from the Guarian 2001

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/nov/01/afghanistan.terrorism

Two months before September 11 Osama bin Laden flew to Dubai for 10 days for treatment at the American hospital, where he was visited by the local CIA agent, according to the French newspaper Le Figaro........

Bin Laden is reported to have arrived in Dubai on July 4 from Quetta in Pakistan with his own personal doctor, nurse and four bodyguards, to be treated in the urology department. While there he was visited by several members of his family and Saudi personalities, and the CIA. The CIA chief was seen in the lift, on his way to see Bin Laden, and later, it is alleged, boasted to friends about his contact. He was recalled to Washington soon afterwards.

Intelligence sources say that another CIA agent was also present; and that Bin Laden was also visited by Prince Turki al Faisal, then head of Saudi intelligence, who had long had links with the Taliban, and Bin Laden. Soon afterwards Turki resigned, and more recently he has publicly attacked him in an open letter: "You are a rotten seed, like the son of Noah".

The American hospital in Dubai emphatically denied that Bin Laden was a patient there. Washington last night also denied the story. '

Another reoccurring name in this long tall tale is Susan Rice 'a rotten seed, like the son of Noah' who was up to no good way in Africa from the early 90's.
While I'm on a CT binge who the hell is this guy who seems to loom large in this twisted tale that goes clear back to Clinton's first term. He bills himself as a 'freelance diplomat' lol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansoor_Ijaz

Mansoor Ijaz (Arabic: منصور اعجاز‎) (born August 1961) is an American venture financier and hedge-fund manager. He is founder and chairman of Crescent Investment Management Ltd, a New York and London-based investment firm that operates CARAT, a proprietary trading system developed by Ijaz in the late 1980s. He was born in Florida to Pakistani immigrant parents and raised in Virginia's Blue Ridge Mountains.....

"During the first Clinton term, when the U.S. had severed official ties with Sudan, Ijaz opened informal communications links between Washington and Khartoum in an effort to gain access to Sudanese intelligence data on Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda, who were operating from Sudan at the time. Ijaz, who is of Pakistani descent, was involved in efforts to broker a ceasefire in Kashmir in 2000–2001. He was also involved in the Memogate controversy, in which former Pakistani envoy Husain Haqqani allegedly used Ijaz to deliver a memorandum to senior U.S. officials in order to thwart an attempted coup by the Pakistani military after bin Laden was killed."

After reading all this 'CT' today I am even more convinced the Hersh's story is just another 'bad wolf scenario'. As my name is sharaazade I know about tall tale's spun out over a thousand Arabian nights. This one is a ongoing doozie.

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mimi's picture

I am at a point where cynicism or sarcasm doesn't help me anymore.

I have a different perspective on how to "understand" Obama. That is, I do believe I understand why he became the person he is. Through his childhood.

I remember when I first read his book "Dream of my fathers" and I just couldn't help but thinking may be he should have been grateful to not have known his father any more than he had. It was a psychological natural development that he made up his "own dream of his father" and that he felt so much pressure to "live up to the dreams of his grandmother and grandfather", who sacrificed a lot to bring him through private school and helped him into a college venue. Kids construct their stories.

Obama wrote "Dreams of my Father" while he was in Harvard. An excellent writer. And someone who saw himself being a politician. The book was published shortly before he ran his first campaign in Illinois. "Dream of my Father" was a book that he needed to write, and I would say, unconsciously, making up the story that he saw in his father as a base for his own ambitions.

Had Obama lived with his father and gotten to know him, he wouldn't have been able to maintain that kind of dream he described his father with. Kids try to compensate for a lot that is missing in their lives when parents so to speak "fail". So, I have a heart for Obama as a human being, I can imagine his personal development as a child, pupil and beginning student within the realm of his family life.

So, I tend to not hate him for his political failures. I can't excuse many of the policies, I became very critical off, but I won't go into a "hate" mode. I feel less betrayed than my son is, who really, really can follow Obama's path, but I see how dangerous it is to live up to a "dream". The power Obama has is too much for him to handle. The hate people have against him as well. So, there is no way around the fact that I won't cheer people's criticism, when the hate is shining through or the cynicism fogs the reader's mind.

What is needed is clarity. That's what I like to find. I can't joke anymore. My harsh words here are not meant to hurt anyone's feelings. But I want to be able to express mine as well.

Thanks for reading.

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Big Al's picture

from whom. Hate is relative, it's just a word. What I focus on is that Obama, Clinton, all of the people leading
the world's countries, they're all human just like us. They're just people, no smarter, no more good looking, nothing.
They're just people who if they weren't where they are and were just walking down the street, nobody would notice. They are
people who should be held to the same standards as all the rest of us. Just because they're politicians and work for the
government does not mean the rules are different for them.

Do I hate Obama? Or Clinton or Kerry or Bush? Like I said, it's all relative. I reserve my greatest disgust for them, let's put
it that way. That's because I truly believe they are criminals. Nothing more than sociopathic or even psychopathic criminals.
I will not view them any other way than the same as any other person who murders other people, or hurts other people. I
cannot excuse them for their actions just because they are in the positions they are in. They are breaking the law and must
be held accountable just like we all are for our actions. The number of human lives they are damaging with their actions is
incredible.

To me we might as well be talking about Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy and that's how I will treat them, with utter disgust.
I believe that is how we should treat them because they are criminals. Simple as that. So it's not really about hate, it's
about truth and justice.

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mimi's picture

who are for the most part enablers (knowingly or not) who are not sociopathic or psychopathic criminals, right?

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"hate mode"? WTF? I see no hatred in these comments. I wrote a lot of other stuff here that I deleted, I'm just going to shake my head right now and walk away. OK?

No wait, I'll say one more thing, you as a German national should see the failure in telling American citizens that they should not be critical of their leaders.

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mimi's picture

should not be critical of their leaders. Sorry for being so misunderstood.

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You've jumped on peoples backs all over these threads, mimi. Why? It appears the only reason you've done this is you're not happy with the criticism, I see no other reason that you would act the way you have in this open thread. I've seen many folks being very patient and nice to you on this site, giving you the benefit of the doubt over and over, no one has ever tried to stifle you from expressing your feelings. Yes, you may not have said exactly "that American citizens should not be critical of their leaders", but that is exactly what you have implied by your actions here.

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mimi's picture

and I apologize for the way I expressed myself.

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for you to be upset with the criticism of President Obama, just as it is perfectly fine for the folks that do want to criticize him. The problem comes when you jump on peoples backs for expressing their opinion, that they have every right to have just as you do. I think everyone will agree here that we don't want an echo chamber, but we also don't want hall monitors or Thunder Domes.

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JayRaye's picture

I think your constant outpouring of hostility towards others on the this site is understood all too well.

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Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons

mimi's picture

of hostility towards people on this site. It was clearly not meant that way. I just have lost the capability to deal with humor, sarcasm, cynicism or comedy. I just was overwhelmed with all those stories about the Seymour Hersh stuff. I have apologized to JtC and said I am sorry that I showed that. It's obviously my own problem. That's why I said I would like to distance myself from further commenting.

Again, my apologies, also to you personally.

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shaharazade's picture

Politics doesn't trump people. Whats so funny about peace love and understanding. None of this shit is necessary its all madness it always is. No policy can ever override human rights and just plain old justice equality and all that jazz.

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JayRaye's picture

I can't joke anymore. My harsh words here are not meant to hurt anyone's feelings. But I want to be able to express mine as well.

OK fine, express yourself no one is stopping you, but when you jump on others every time they use snark because you don't like snark, then that has the effect of censoring the speech of others. Other's who participate here get to use snark or sarcasm or humor here whether you like it or not. And I, for one, am getting tired of the way that you jump on them for doing it. It has the effect of derailing the conversation from the other person's point of view onto yourself; what you like and don't like in debating style then becomes the subject at hand. You are free to present your point of view in a style that suits you. But you should stop behaving like you think you have the right to tell others how to present their point of view.

And: "I'm done. Go play with yourself." What on earth does that even mean? JtC put a lot of work into this morning's post, and this is your reaction? And why do you assume that anyone here expects you to "slog" thru anything. You are, of course, free to read or not read what ever you want here.

Why on earth are you treating people like this? It makes no sense. I'm sorry if you are having a hard time, but taking it out on others here is not acceptable. Jumping on others who are critical of politician or candidate and accusing them of "hate" is also not acceptable. It has the effect of derailing the debate, rather like what is done constantly at Daily Kos.

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shaharazade's picture

is a bad idea. Obama's life story does not in any way excuse his monstrous inhumane criminality. In a way I have more compassion for Bush the younger as he was really damaged goods and was the CIA's own Poppy and the psycho Cheney's puppet. I'm sure most pols in power are sociopath's and some are just plain old psycho killers who need to be put in check. Unfortunately the worst of these bi-partisan thugs with power have removed all parliamentary, legal restraints and any check on their power.

Not having a heart for Obama or Bush as a human doesn't mean hating them as a human. Clarity is needed to see evil for what it is. When their abuses of power and authority are excused by the childhood psychological trauma that made them into stone killers and power hungry monsters you have no clarity This current lot that rule the world and have no humanity and have no restraints on there power and authority. I do hate what these inevitable monsters are doing to humanity and the planet we live on.

I refuse to have a heart for them or respect their power and authority. Historically these current want to rule the world psycho's are not unique. People have throughout history had to stop their evil onslaughts and with draw their consent to rule. Hating or loving Obama or any pol, who works for the out of control global 'oligarchical collectivist's' seems to me to play right into their totalitarian criminal anti-democratic hands. Perhaps compassion on a human level should not extend to what you call his 'political failures' they are not separate from his personna and to the dangerous people in power not failures at all. Their betrayal goes beyond the personal, it's a betrayal of humanity and the universal principles and laws that humans have established to keep these monsters at bay.

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JayRaye's picture

he has managed to serve the ruling class very well. That was his aim from the start and he has succeeded. The TPP will be his crowning success. The ruling class will not forget how well he has served them, we can bet on that.

I save my compassion for the millions of people who were and are being harmed by those policies. And the millions more of us who will continue to be harmed well into the future.

And it is the childhood trauma of the 99% that concerns me, esp those who have suffered the worse trauma of seeing their family members blown apart right before their very eyes.

Money may not buy happiness for rich people who had unhappy childhoods, but at least they can be well fed and live in nice houses while they workout the effects of their unhappy childhoods.

They aren't facing childhood trauma AND hunger AND homelessness AND incarceration AND shitty jobs that pay shit wages, AND the ravages of war etc etc etc

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shaharazade's picture

I read your excellent Hell Raisers diary's and am always amazed at how far we have regressed so quickly back to the horrible plight of working people 100 years ago. Thank you. I just read where the senate Democrat's and the Republicans killed the fast track. so at least they have slowed down one of his political successes.

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JayRaye's picture

I always enjoy your comments as well

I was one of those saps who fell for Obama hook line and sinker, not just once but twice.

Donated way more money than anyone in my position should be donating.
Seems I donated to get my own throat cut.

I think we humans really hate to admit that we were conned.

After the last 8 years, seeing what the Democrats are doing, there is no way I would ever vote for Hilary, not a chance. So at least Obama cured me of the whole "lesser evil" bullshit. Fell for that line for many many years, but no more.

The older I get, the more radical I get. I thot it was supposed to work the other way around!

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Shahryar's picture

I voted for him in 2008. That was enough. But I keep getting told by shaharazade that Obama is irrelevant, that he's only the front person, carefully selected to bamboozle us.

We joke about this thusly: If you've ever seen "A Boy and His Dog" you might recall a terrfying farmer type named Michael who's responsible for discipline (I'm simplifying this and, besides, it's been awhile so I might not remember it exactly). Turns out Michael is a robot who gets outmaneuvered. The head of the place (called "Topeka") says "get another Michael out of the warehouse. This time make sure the engineering department wipes that smile off his face." Our little joke is "they" said (in 2007/8) "Get another Bush and make this one black" and now they're saying "Get another Bush and make this one a woman".

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Pluto's Republic's picture

In fact, really quality comments throughout.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
mimi's picture

I even don't think that Obama had much of a childhood trauma, he didn't know his father. I just tried to indicate why he made his "father's dreams" a story that served him well. I guess that was a shot in my own foot. Hard for me to explain. I didn't mean with it to excuse that what I see as his policy mistakes.

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shaharazade's picture

are not what this is about mimi. These are not mistakes. Get a grip this is not about policy mistakes. He's made no mistakes he's doing what he signed on to do. You often say why can't congress or the executive stop this via our electoral legislative electoral process. Face it there is no parliamentary or any democratic process left to use for 'we the people'. Our system is broken totally broken from top to bottom and all the humpty's at dkos cannot put it back together because they will not face this fact. I think maybe besides reading dkos, the media whores or books you ought to get out and read what the people globally have to say about this. It's not so depressing once you stop buying the global double speak propaganda that is pumped out daily. Sarcasm and snark are a sane response and kind of liberating considering the garbage that is pumped out as facts, truths or politics. There really are bad guys who are in charge of the world and Obama is their spokesperson and facilitator. Hillary will keep this mad storyline alive and kicking ass.. So if it freaks you out to hear information that contradicts what dkos pumps out or challenges your comfort level your in the wrong place. I hope.

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mimi's picture

I have often said (at least I tried to) that I consider the electoral college and electoral laws and campaign finance laws and congressional rules the reason of why - exactly as you said - there is no democracy in the US system. I guess my English capabilities and clear formulations are just so bad, that I am not understood. I actually tried to say once that I think that changing or erasing and rewriting those laws would be for me the first thing I would get involved in as a movement.

Of course I know that this isn't merely about a "policy mistake", but I didn't know another polite expression to use. Do you really expect me, as a German green card holder, express myself on a blog with words like "war criminal" etc for Obama? I mean do you think I am not aware of everything being "surveilled" and "collected" what one says and does online? Including here? Why would I be trusting? Every rec, tweet, like and comment is observed. It conditions all of us in our behavior, not only me.

I could easily get in difficulties for my words. I am not a citizen here in the US, but I have to live here. I have also some responsibilities towards other persons that I don't want to get in trouble, as in being related to a "extremist or anti-American or a person to watch out for". I can't afford that. And if you think it's fun to live under those conditions, it's not.

And I may not read enough of what you say people globally think, but actually I have been exposed to lots of "global" opinions in my life, way more than to American ones, which I mostly only know through the internet or TV. Since my 20th birthday I am living among people, who you would count as having "global opinions". That is 46 long years. It's not that I don't know. I also don't fall for double speak, neither do I not understand propaganda, co-opting and appeasing or adjusting to polled public opinions by politicians. I really come from another corner of the world.

Actually it scares me to know what people think about American policies elsewhere. That's what makes me tired and mad and scared. If I have no nerves to express myself with the same clarity and words many here use, that doesn't mean that I don't understand them, often agree with them, but nevertheless would not use them myself. Because I am already be scared to be viewed to be in company of people, who are courageous enough to use a lot of outright criticism. That's how scared I am. Have you been a foreigner in this country? Are you aware of how many foreigners surpress constantly what they think in order to not offend or being rude? Do you know how tiring it is to constantly to have to say "sorry" or apologize for something I would have never to apologize for outside the US?

Me being so disappointed about political conditions is the reason why I can't take it easily anymore and escape into the same kind of snark and sarcasm (my English is also not good enough to do that) as you can and don't find it liberating anymore for myself. Actually I more and more despair over it, because it shows me that other than escaping into snark and cynicism there is nothing else that can be done. For example when Colbert and John Stewart had their show at the DC Mall at the same time when Glen Beck had his idiocy on the Lincoln Memorial I felt really very depressed. I couldn't believe that this is all you can do to protest. The process has been going on for too long. People really suffer under those kind of conditions. Being in an online conversation in a blog means you are constantly aware of what you say and how it is responded to. That makes honesty almost instantly a "staged behaviour" and in that sense not honest anymore.

I can tell you that interacting on dailykos or anywhere else online is not really supportive of "free speech", because you self-censor and self-monitor constantly (aside of being censored with stupid rules like Godwin and other stuff), which leads to a lot of fake comments, including fake niceties or fake outrage or fake compassion. You can't speak online without being "conditioned" by the awareness that you are eventually "tracked", "observed" and your data are "stored" somewhere and your persona is analyzed by sociologists and psychologist and "profiled" by corporations for profit to sell you stuff and propaganda. You are a guinea pig and are very aware of it as well. That is no fun. Actually it's outrageous that we have to live under a technology like that.

I am not sure I can express what I want to say in ways you understand. I am so sorry that I can't. I am way tired about a lot of things, but I don't think I am too dumb to understand what is going on. I am overwhelmed and confused and have no good memory anymore, nor am I trained to analyze news, but that's about it. I believe I still can get "the overall picture".

And with all those words I don't mean to offend anyone.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

…like Mexico for example, I never participate in online political discussions.

In Mexico, it is against the law for a foreigner to participate in or even discuss Mexican politics. Besides criminal charges, you are instantly deported.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
JayRaye's picture

If having someone disagree with you bothers you so much that you have to write a long post about your hurt feelings, and snark bothers you so much that you must lash out at your fellow bloggers, then a political blog is probably not the best place for you to hang out.

Seems you have two separate sets of rules, one where we are not supposed to hurt your feelings by disagreeing with your point of view, and another where you must be excused for lashing out at others because you are "overwhelmed" or whatever. Many of us are upset about the state of the world, our upsetness does not excuse lashing out at others here at C99l

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Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons

JayRaye's picture

Obama dance with the one who brung him, that is a feature, not a bug.

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Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons

get up on the wrong side of the bed today, mimi?

It's so fucking tiring. Go play with yourself. I am done.

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mimi's picture

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OLinda's picture

When polls are taken regarding the military, a large majority of Americans say the military are highly respected or regarded. The question should be changed to differentiate between the men and women service members and command.

The instinct of command is always to lie and embellish. That is why the first reports regarding bin Laden all had to be walked back. The first account out of their mouths is not going to be the truth, if it ever is. It may never be the truth, but you can bet their first try at a good story will not be the truth. "How can I answer to catapult the propaganda? What can I make up that will fly and sound the most heroic, daring, brave, smart, and Exceptional?" They are assisted by an acquiescent press.

See Pat Tillman and Jessica Lynch.

If you don't automatically initially doubt what any White House, or military person says you are not paying attention.

Spin, Spin, Spin. The War for your Mind wages on. --- JtC

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http://www.businessinsider.com/sec-itt-education-charges-2015-5

The SEC has announced fraud charges against the former-CEO and current CFO of for-profit college ITT Educational Services.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/sec-itt-education-charges-2015-5#ixzz3ZwE...

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shaharazade's picture

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mimi's picture

and apologize for having messed up things around here.

Originally I came here, because I wanted to support Joe Shikspack's and JtC's work providing readers on dailykos with important information. The only way I know to show my support is to rec, comment and try to write something eventually etc. I feel that I can't do that without losing my nerves

I am not quite capable to expressi myself in ways that doesn't disturb the peace here. I don't imply any bad motivations of commentators and writers here, nor did I want to censor anyone's sp. eech. As it was interpreted like it, I rather would like to distance myself.

I am still very much in support of the political ideas and intentions that I have understood to be the origin of putting up this site. I am just not good at dealing with the news reading and discussions emotionally and so I like to go.

I apologize for the nuisance I have created.

I can't delete my own comments, just erase parts of it. I may do so.

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Big Al's picture

"the people on the receiving end of his derision, ridicule and contempt are his fellow Democrats, specifically those "Progressive Democrats" who are refusing to get with the program and pass what apparently is supposed to be his final signature, legacy cementing piece of legislation, the TPP and his ability to fast track it."

Well, maybe if those "Progressive Democrats" had properly stood up against Obama's illegal wars they'd have already got the picture about Obama.
Or maybe if they had paid attention when he appointed Summers, Geithner and Petraeus to positions in his administration. Or maybe they'd have got the picture when Obama proposed the Chained CPI for Social Security. Or maybe when he killed those kids in an illegal drone attack. Or maybe. .

Ya, Obama is dissing the "Progressive Democrats" now isn't he. He hasn't for the last six fucking years but now he is with the TPP.
Hey, War ON, Progressive Democrats!

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Big Al's picture

Day late and a dollar short.

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