Open Thread 9-22-16: More about how they lie...always

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We are so trusting! We listen to the lies and we look for whatever scrap we can get. Obama is very good at this. He'll do something terrible, saying he wished he didn't have to do it and people, who should know better!, will sympathize with him! They'll nod and go "oh he's such a good man. I feel so bad for him, having to do this horrible thing that I'd have screamed about had Bush done it".

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smooth liar!

This is not new. Most people are honest about the big things and can't quite believe that liars lie. Oh, liars might have lied in the past but if you sit down with them they'll tell the truth. Except they're actually lying...again! Dee Brown, who wrote "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee", expressed this very well when he said:

"What surprised me most was how much the Indians believed the white man over and over again. Their trust in authority was amazing. They just never seemed to believe that anyone could lie."

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believed the white man!

Along these lines, I was thinking about how (we're told) this election is the most important one ever...even more so than the last one when that one was the most important. We can't let them win! And now they tell us we have to vote for a person we dislike (or hate) because this other guy is like Hitler. We can't let Hitler get elected! Because, you know, if Hitler wins then we might start invading other countries on flimsy pretexts, bombing wherever we like, locking up people without trial and so on...all the things we don't want! So to prevent Hitler from winning and preserving the status quo of the Obama Administration (!!) we must not cast a "protest vote".

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very bad liar

Recently I found something in "Agricola" by Tacitus. This Tacitus fellow was a Roman who was right in there with the elites so he knew what he was talking about when he wrote history. Agricola was his father-in-law and a general, not a farmer ("agricola" is Latin for farmer), who became governor of Britain in the first century A.D. Those Romans knew the concept of bad cop, good cop. Agricola was the good cop. Romans would be all kinds of vicious to the people they conquered, then they'd bring in a bad dude who was better than the last one and the locals would say "ok, this isn't too bad". Tacitus was fairly honest for someone in his position when he wrote this about the effect of Agricola being fairly nice to the Britons:

"The result was that in place of distaste for the Latin language came a passion to command it. In the same way, our national dress came into favor and the toga was everywhere to be seen. And so the Britons were gradually led on to the amenities that make vice agreeable - arcades, baths and sumptuous banquets. They spoke of such novelties as 'civilization', when really they were only a feature of enslavement".

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Rome so strong he could tell the truth about how @$^&ed the Brits were

The moral of the story is "believe nothing". If Hillary's eyeballs point two different directions and they say she's not a malfunctioning robot, question it! If another Bernie type comes along on the Democratic side, assume he's lying. Elizabeth Warren is bad at it. She could never get people moved like Howard Dean did, like Obama did, like Bernie did. But someone will take it up. Someone will be the new Bernie, now that Bernie's used up, now that his credibility is gone. I would hope, though, that next time we'll come into it with eyes open, knowing it's a lie before we get suckered into wasting 10 months.

This leads to the old questions: What can we do about it? How can we improve things? Dang, man. Now I feel like Chomsky, who's pretty good at explaining what's messed up but doesn't seem to have any solutions. Surely there must be answers. Maybe we can just live another 800,000 years and then sit around like the Eloi.

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this seems nice!

And now, ladies and gentlemen, let's play youtube grab bag! I go to youtube, click on something from the front page...

Acid Gallery! This was produced by Roy Wood who was in The Move, a great band. He wrote this song and, I believe, appears on it.

Maypoles remind me that I like those Celtic holy days. May 1st is like the first day of summer, August 1st the first day of autumn (in the sense that it's about time to harvest).

Ok, youtube grab bag. I look for the oddest thing on the right. Here's the next winner!

That was a winner, too. I love that group. Now geez, where did this next one come from?

Meanwhile Summer (the way we reckon it) is almost over

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Shahryar's picture

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she looks like a horror movie version run amok just before $he bites the little kid's head off.
Nice tunes.
And of COURSE they lie! They lie when the truth would serve them better, THAT'S how stupid they are! And WE believe them, or at least vote, which tells ya how stupid we are.
Still, I'll vote. Just not for the duopoly.
Jillnot$hill.

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Ya got to be a Spirit, cain't be no Ghost. . .

Explain Bldg #7. . .

riverlover's picture

Whichever, yes, and the baths at Bath look nice, like old public (=black, horrors) swimming pools. Not my cuppa. Not racist, just bacterial nope.

Oh, Lordy, another work day. Two baby trees to plant, two holes to quarry in my drought-stricken yard. At least it's recycling day, so the boxes go away. But I am thinking... I live in an area of the county where garbage pickup is not included in my taxes. $18.90/month, garbage or not, I pay. Plus, a $1.50 Tag on each 20 lb bag of garbage. I struggle to find any where near 20 lb per week, usually every other week. So $20/month. I have committed $20/month to c99p. I could save the $20/month for garbage by buying a new $10/2 year permit to the county recyling/garbage facility and save $20/month. That looks like a no-brainer, plus I have to go there to get rid of retired (dead) electronics for recycling, currently a "dead" smoke detector (did you know they go bad??) which is full of Americium245, IIRC. So an alpha emitter. Yum. Forever.

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WaterLily's picture

Does your transfer station accept food scraps for composting? This can dramatically cut your volume of garbage *and* the cost of disposing of it.

Our trash collection isn't included in our taxes, either (though weekly recycling is), so we take our trash to the transfer station ourselves. Our need to do this is, on average, once a month because we compost all of our food scraps -- and we've trained ourselves to keep everything out of the bathroom trash (like dental floss, toothpaste packaging, etc.) except tissues, so we can compost that, too. Now we generate an amazingly small amount of trash.

By "we compost," I mean that we are able to take all of the compostables to the transfer station -- and they send them to a company that makes and sells the compost. It's a nice arrangement for everyone. Although I did just order a cedar composting box for the backyard, which makes me ridiculously excited. Smile

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riverlover's picture

last week? I do my own, yucky but mine is enclosed in a Rubbermaid can with holes drilled all around (many), lidded so that I can roll it to mix. Fruit fly heaven now, also I admit spiders for fly control. But it works for winter storage of food waste. I keep out fat and meats. There may be rubber bands that escape!

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congrats on the trashcan composter! You may know this, but adding leaves will keep it less stinky, and it'll cook faster.

I have a big 3-bin system in my back yard which we only turn once a year. In the front yard, I have a handy covered bin, sort of like yours but stationary. I keep a big bag of fall leaves nearby, so when I add kitchen scraps I put leaves in at the same time. This is a very handy thing, esp. in the winter when we don't feel like trekking around back!

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riverlover's picture

4 leaf piles in the woods. And leaves are added to compost piles, use them for starters, good suggestion to add more.

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WaterLily's picture

Since I'm new to the backyard thing.

I've had friends tell me oak leaves aren't good because they take forever to break down. This bums me out, because the majority of the trees in our neighborhood are oak. We rake about 40 bags (!!) of them each fall and I'd really like to use them ...

Say it ain't so!

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riverlover's picture

There are relatively cheap leaf grinders that bit them up, better. I am alone and too old and lazy now, but grinding them up (same as wood, different grinders) and adding lawn fertilizer to the mix, makes hot compost quickly. A lazy compost pile otherwise can take years, but does work. I have no idea the quality of the old stuff other than tilth for soil, but that is how I use it. Anyone want to come over and dig through a 2" gravel bed to plant a tree? My dog digs, ineffectively.

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WaterLily's picture

Well, I suppose I can look for a cheap leaf grinder then. I was hoping to toss them, bags and all, into the compost box but that now seems inadvisable. Smile

There are some maple leaves down now, though, so I'll scoop those up and save them for when the time comes.

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Is billed along with sewer and water. We've been recycling for at least 20 years, and they went to single sort a couple of years ago. Apparently, that increased the numbers, though I never saw sorting as a problem. The city will have a plastic bag ban next summer; apparently, plastic bags are a terrible bane of recycling. They are banned from recycling containers, but of course, many get tossed in and really clog up the processing! This past spring, they began collecting organic recycling once per week. I have a container with a tight fitting lid, so we put all food scraps in there and keep in the refrigerator, then empty as needed into a compostable bag. Now, we have to empty our kitchen trash container only once a month or so.

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jwa13's picture

the half-life of Am241 (the isotope used in smoke detectors) is "only" 432 years, so should mostly be gone by the time that your 25th generation of descendants rolls around --

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When Cicero had finished speaking, the people said “How well he spoke”.
When Demosthenes had finished speaking, the people said “Let us march”.

With the good news. . .

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Ya got to be a Spirit, cain't be no Ghost. . .

Explain Bldg #7. . .

riverlover's picture

I don't care about alpha emitters, enough to worry about. Wink

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Shahryar's picture

I used to be mildly ok with it but that was so long ago that I have to read Tacitus in English. I mean, look at this:

"Inde etiam habitus nostri honor et frequens toga; paulatimque discessum ad delenimenta vitiorum, porticus et balinea et conviviorum elegantiam. Idque apud imperitos humanitas vocabatur, cum pars servitutis esset. "

Right?

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riverlover's picture

Latin was (calculator) 43 years ago.

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I eat. We habitually honor the frequent toga. Paul says it's a crazy life. Doors in Bali are convivial and elegant. I appear to be imperious, with a human vocabulary. With equal service, it is.

Dang, but they said odd things back then! smh

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Shahryar's picture

that's about how I read it now, too. Thank you for the correction. I thought it was "Paula".

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riverlover's picture

edit, good is hard to spell.

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Are you sure you're not just rattled? Hmmm? Wink

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riverlover's picture

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Latin and musical.

Et tu? : And you?, or You, too?, from Shakespeare's Julius Caesar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Et_tu,_Brute%3F

Good: Bonum, or bono, as in, cui bono?, or, capitalized and pronounced a bit differently, as in Bono, of U2

Angel of Harlem, a song from U2's album, Rattle and Hum.

Happy Veneris (Friday), to U2 you, too, riverlover!

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(a small part)

"Pitt, Jr, obtained most of the city of brotherly love by so outrageous a deception as stymied the trusting heart of his red brother with torturous mistrust..."

Before, after, and during the era of treaties with American Indians, there were(are) outright lies to take what belonged to them. That's in addition to the broken treaties.

Twice the federal judge had to threaten W Bush's Secretary of the Interior with jail for contempt of court to get her(Gale Norton) to produce Interior documents at trial. Bill Clinton, instead of righting the obvious wrong, continued to pursue the coverup of misuse of funds that rightly belonged to the American Indians.

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"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"

Raggedy Ann's picture

I believe that. I have always been a trusting soul. I have paid for that, too. The older I get, the less I trust.

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

are becoming an endangered species. I don't think it's a matter of cynicism that may, or may not, come with age; I think that the ethic of greed and "self interest is the only interest" is a real thing.

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"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"

Mark from Queens's picture

Just one more measurable casualty of the 80's Gordon Gekko Greed Is Good. That era of deep Conservatism, religious fervor and the worst music (and fashion) remains a bane of my existence. So much of that beautiful Flower Power stuff, communalism and questioning authority traded away for Get Rich Quick schemes and tawdry Me First culture. The current presidential race is another by-product of that plastic, soulless and dumbed-down era.

Does nobody really hitch hike anymore? Say it ain't so...

From the Guardian, " The death of hitchhiking is a modern tragedy" by Anne Perkins.

Yet even before the poor Frenchman had a tantrum on State Highway 6, there was plenty of evidence that hitchhiking is no longer a cheap and reliable way of getting to where you want to go. Maybe hitchhiking is just too analogue, a bit 20th century for millennials. In a hyper-connected age, when it’s necessary to text to announce a five-minute delay, there is diminishing appeal in committing a whole day (or even just an hour) entirely to chance.

Anyway, there are ride-sharing apps that mean you can be picked up at your door and taken to your destination, which offer some of the virtues of hitching but in an organised, digital kind of way. Yet they also mean sacrificing an element of serendipity, the happy accident of the unexpected place or person, to the security of predictability, and it feels like an expensive compromise.

Hitching depended on a sense of solidarity, and the sense of trust and mutuality that allowed me as a teenager, and practically everyone else I knew, to get around when there was no bus and no obliging parent. For me it was sometimes indispensable. Hitchhiking in uniform had me expelled from school (it was the uniform that did it).

People who hitched, and people who gave lifts to hitchers, were two sides of the coin of mutuality. People with assets regarded it as perfectly reasonable to share them. The dishonour was not in the asking but in the driving by. It was a kind of echo of the spirit that once unquestioningly sustained schools and hospitals, the idea which nowadays seems to be a fantasy, that we were there for each other.

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"If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph:

THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED
FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
WAS MUSIC"

- Kurt Vonnegut

long time. I used to pick up a lot of hitchhikers too when I finally got a car. I crossed the Navajo reservation a lot for a couple of years and there was always someone needing a lift.

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"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"

Mark from Queens's picture

I would prefer to live in, still makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

Just don't see too many people out anymore.

Movement Conservatism, based in fear-mongering, ruined so much.

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"If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph:

THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED
FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
WAS MUSIC"

- Kurt Vonnegut

shaharazade's picture

the old woman said hitchhiked twice across this country. The strength it gave me has lasted my whole life. Once via the southern route which was pretty scary once you hit Louisiana but the Smokey Mountain people we're just fine. I liked Tennessee. Nashville cats are cool as country water.

I hitched home to Oregon 2 years later using the northern route. Not as scary. the people who picked us up consisted of many parents with kids my and my fellow travelers age. Lot's of lonely truckers. Then there we're the fellow hippies, some good some really terrifying. The Tetons people we're as big spirited as the sky there.

All in all I had a great adventure and really saw the country. The people amazed me regardless of where I was or who they were. I think the people we're more enlightening spirit wise then the vast cultural and geographical span I crossed. I also used to pick up hitchhikers myself using intuition and trust as a guideline and never once was scared of the travelers I helped get them to the next stop on their journey.

Desperate times these days where every person is a potential threat rather then a fellow traveler.

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k9disc's picture

Tacitus was writing to the Roman elite and posterity. This truth-telling, or elucidation on the Big Lie, is happening today. It's just happening in econ journals like the Economist and the WSJ.

I don't think that Bernie is like Obama or Warren who both use the dominant framing of economics to deliver their critique of the status quo. Bernie said things that deviated, significantly from the dominant corporate framing. He said things you simply can't say to the masses.

It would be like Tacitus writing these things on pamphlets and delivering them to the Britons. Had he done that, my guess is we wouldn't be reading him at this time.

But he told 'the truth' of and to the elites, and is therefore worthy of trust.

Bernie was revolutionary. He spoke 'the truth' to the masses. That shit's dangerous.

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“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu

mimi's picture

how well read just so thoughtful you and a lot of other writers here are. That's one of the things I take with me no matter where I go and end up and it will be one of my memories and good appreciations and judgments I have made about everything I learned here in the US.

So, thanks to both of you, Shah and Shaz.

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mimi

OLinda's picture

Thank you for the OT, Shahryar. I don't have much to say this morning, but wanted to say thanks to you, and good morning to all.

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- - - -
If you don't like the Mafia, why don't you join it and change it from the inside?

Lies about our food to lies about our wars. The one place we are truly exceptional is our ability to lie and sell it.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

What can we do about it? How can we improve things?

Great question posed by Shah above.

Here is my suggestion on how to improve:

Lie

Why?

Because that is what we are getting beat at. We are not losing the battle of honesty.

I know that folks are thinking "I don't want to become what I despise", but what if I were to tell you that we could win an election by claiming to be war hawks, then when we won office we immediately began bringing home all troops from the middle east, shut down Guantanamo, pushed to decrease the bloated defense department and refrained from any and all foreign military interventions (i.e. stopped overthrowing governments and /or dictators)

Would you be willing to accept that lying?

Republicans voted for "No new taxes" in 1988- They got more taxes.
Democrats voted to end wars in 2008- They got more war.
Republicans voted for smaller gov in 2000- They got Homeland Security, No Child left Behind and Medicare PartD.
Democrats believe in government yet public sector jobs were reduce by over 300,000 jobs while Obama was in office.

We have become so fucking Orwellian that is almost makes sense to vote for the party that is pitching you the opposite of what you want to vote for. (yes I now there is really only one party)

So our choice I believe is to burn it down and start over ala Big Al OR to beat them at their own game.

In all honesty who is willing to lie win?

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hecate's picture

is faulty:

Democrats voted to end wars in 2008.

Not so. The Democratic candidate for president in 2008 made it very clear that he would in fact expand war.

Our troops and our NATO allies are performing heroically in Afghanistan, but I have argued for years that we lack the resources to finish the job because of our commitment to Iraq. That's what the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said earlier this month. And that's why, as President, I will make the fight against al Qaeda and the Taliban the top priority that it should be. This is a war that we have to win.

I will send at least two additional combat brigades to Afghanistan, and use this commitment to seek greater contributions – with fewer restrictions – from NATO allies.

The greatest threat to that security lies in the tribal regions of Pakistan, where terrorists train and insurgents strike into Afghanistan. We cannot tolerate a terrorist sanctuary, and as President, I won’t. We need a stronger and sustained partnership between Afghanistan, Pakistan and NATO to secure the border, to take out terrorist camps, and to crack down on cross-border insurgents. We need more troops, more helicopters, more satellites, more Predator drones in the Afghan border region. And we must make it clear that if Pakistan cannot or will not act, we will take out high-level terrorist targets like bin Laden if we have them in our sights.

Sometimes, they don't actually lie. Sometimes, instead, the people, they "hear what they want to hear/and disregard the rest."

As for lying to win: as soon as you lie, you lose.

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vs I was opposed to the Iraq war even though I didn't have to vote, because if I did have to vote I would have voted for it just like Hills.

So in that context we did vote for less (not to end) war but got more.

As for lying to win: as soon as you lie, you lose.

So you wouldn't lie to end the wars now being fought? How would we lose by lying to end a war?

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to the liar and the one being lied to-

Who lost in this clip?

Also you say "as soon as you lie you lose" yet you have mountains of evidence in electoral politics against that statement. It is simply not true that lying lose elections.

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Seemed most likely to me that all that happened was that the one guy (who looked sneaky and conniving anyway) tried a silly con, the other guy clearly didn't fall for it, so the con guy went for what served his self-interest best in that situation to at least get half. Unless, of course, he was simply trying to not let the other guy use 'steal' so that they'd both lose, more likely both.

I thought that must be a clip from a movie - that's a real show? Looks like I'm still missing nothing by not watching TV...

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

The Powers That Be (and shouldn't be) pick who wins elections - not the people. That's kinda the root of the problem...

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

GreyWolf's picture

I am just a poor boy.
and my story's seldom told,
I have squandered my resistance
For a pocketful of mumbles,
Such are promises
All lies and jest
Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest.

"I am older than I once was, and younger than I’ll be, that’s not unusual … we are more or less the same
… lie la lie
"

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Besides, Obama said so many things, he was the Chauncey Gardiner candidate.

And people were so beaten down in 2008, I would not be surprised if they did not hear anything at all.

(I vacillate: Some days, I blame the victims; some days, I won't.)

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OTH, they tell opposing lies in the same paragraph and nobody cares.

The hair of the dog that bit you. Why not?i I can think of a million cliches to support it.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

hecate's picture

hair of the dog, that doesn't work. And is actually "the worst thing you can do. It doesn't help and it's only enhancing the existing toxicity."

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Or do we become it and forget from whence we came? The older I get, the less certain I am of reality. That makes me less certain of what is right and wrong.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

hecate's picture

"the end justifies the means" is what is known in the lingo as "consequentialism." Of which probably the oldest known articulated form is state consequentialism.

The United States government, for instance, relied upon state consequentialism to justify cleansing the nation of Indians—for the greater good of the white people, whose manifest destiny it was to occupy and rule all of the land.

It is seen, in every moment, today, in the sewage that ceaselessly flows from the lips of The Hairball: the Mexican brown people, they shall be deported and walled off, and the Muslim brown people, they shall be deported, excluded, tortured, killed, and all of their families killed—all, again, for the greater good of the manifest-destinying white people, so that they can Feel Safe, and will, maybe, even, stop wetting the bed.

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consequentialism?

You seem to fancy yourself a authority on the subject I'm sure you could find a positive example could you not?

I posted a video of one above, and I'm a novice Smile

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I think the morality of the action is judged on the outcome. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Okay, it does. But only for a minute.

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Ya got to be a Spirit, cain't be no Ghost. . .

Explain Bldg #7. . .

next to each other without thinking of Bob.

Dylan is one of my idols, and this purity discussion about honesty got me thinking about something I had read about Bob and I wanted to post a snip of it here-

He is Bob Dylan and not Robert Zimmerman.
People place a high premium on the truth when all that matters is: Was it a great story? Memory is a construct, so even non-fiction is really someone doing his best at not lying–it is non-non-non-fiction. So you have to ask: Was it fun? Was it a hell of a ride? Didn’t I blow your mind this time? Was it the kind of lie that told you the truth? Bob Dylan has been making it up as he goes along for fifty years. He has been lying the whole time and it’s all true

full article here

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

hecate's picture

was a liar. The vast majority of Britons adopted no Roman ways. And the Romans' farcical walls—Hadrian's, Antonine, etc.—were as futile as shall be The Hairball's. Walls are but solid manifestations of the liquid urine dribbling down the legs of frightened gasbags.

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riverlover's picture

overhead, felt like landing) on my way to see Hadrian's Wall remnant. Bought a roman column vase that leaks. They did nice roads, for the time. If only we could build interstates similarly, bumpy or whatever. Instead of L lane closed, next 20 miles.

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been invaded, then ruled tend to adapt to the new rulers, to speak their language, to prize their ways. So, he may not have known he was lying. But, you are right: the common folk would have lived the same as they did before the invasion. "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

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Shahryar's picture

Summer really is almost gone. We've got air conditioners in the windows (we call them "cool boxes") but we'll leave them in for another three weeks. We've figured out something screwy is happening with the weather and it's likely to get into the mid 90s for no good reason.

It's stereotype Portland weather right now. Gray sky, green trees. It almost feels like 1990. It's quiet right now in this part of the city. Someone's fixing something, I can hear the hammer. A crow just said something in its native tongue.

Portland's grown too fast, lost a lot of its charm, turning a little too yuppie. becoming less friendly, less trusting. Soon bartenders will say "and that's another thing. Where do you get off calling me 'Nick'?"

But right now, just before 11 am, it feels good.

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hecate's picture

You're in contentment. Good for you. Long may it last. ; )

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riverlover's picture

Too many days of angst. We have some members in flight, I fear. I picked recycling as a "safe" subject. In under an hour a contractor/my housebuilder/neighbor will appear to entertain my pup and figure out an estimate to bring my decks up to current building code. That is like, handrails for me. I have no idea how to rail in my two lily pads. Should be fun. And that is a day here, also cutting down a dead witch hazel by hand and planting a second pawpaw.

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enhydra lutris's picture

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Shahryar's picture

I'd never heard this. Appreciated!

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enhydra lutris's picture

none, zero music instruction, i got a cheap axe, an intro to what those lines and dots with the flags on them were, a Leadbelly songbook and a Cisco Houston songbook. Working through the latter I hit that song and was truly boggled.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

mimi's picture

How can you find out if a company has filed for bankruptcy or is in the process of it? How can you find out, who really owns a company? What kind of "front companies" they created to unload too expensive employees to those companies to make their main company's balance sheets look better?

I need to learn that stuff. Have to go now, but will come back later in the evening. Thanks.

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mimi

riverlover's picture

That would be a great information essay as things fall apart.

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Shahryar's picture

we have this supermarket chain here called New Seasons. It started out as a reasonable health food grocery store with a few items that were more mainstream. It has since turned the other way around and now sells Wonder Bread. If we want better bread we have to go elsewhere.

So we've been wondering, did it get bought? I know they received a very large investment. Does that mean the investors now run it?

For example, they've told us they've stopped carrying certain foods because now that they have so many stores they want them to be uniform, and the companies that make the products in question are too small to provide enough for all the stores. That means they can only buy from large suppliers and large suppliers do not tend to be health conscious. This is, of course, a stupid policy if, in fact, it's true. Personally I think they just want to be like Safeway with a better image.

Well, back to the question, what has caused the change? If they have new ownership, who is it? I'll go look and if I find an easy way to get the information, one that works in a general sense, I'll let you know so you can use it.

As far as bankruptcy information, good luck!

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mimi's picture

help me answering my own questions. I also don't give a damn anymore. Things come to an end and it's just not good to see where they end.

I think I have seen stuff in the last six weeks and then last two weeks that are beyond what I could imagine. Can't really talk about it. May be one day I can find it out, but it will be too late, and I guess I will break out and down of the system.

Thanks for your response.

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mimi

If it is a publicly traded corporation, it has to file all kinds of disclosures and quarterly and annual reports with the Securities and Exchange Commission. If so, you are in luck. Call the company and request a copy of its most recently annual report, offering to pay postage and, if any, copying costs. (Most companies have literally boxes of extras.)

Bankruptcy: It sounds as though you have a larger company in mind. So, you might try googling. You could also try just calling and asking. You could get a credit report, but that will cost. Otherwise,you have to know their address. From their address, you have to figure out which bankruptcy court has jurisdiction over them. For help with this, you could try asking your federal representative's office or the federal court nearest you, or even a good librarian.

The company you have in mind may itself be owned by another company. Again, you might try googling and just calling and alking about parent companies and subsidiaries. If those don't help, and you know in which state its headquarters are, call the Secretary of State and see which papers are on file for them. The Articles of Incorporation may be there and annual reports. If the company incorporated in a state other than where its headquarters are located--usually Delaware--then it would have to file in the state of its headquarters some kind of document qualifying it to do business in the state of its headquarters.

A board member who is a lawyer can probably tell you more.

As far as off loading employees, I have no idea how you find that out. I think it would be odd to work for Company A, but get paychecks from company B, but what do I know?

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mimi's picture

well, I did a little bit of what you said, but it didn't bring me much further and I doubt that it even makes sense to find out.It won't change the facts. I think the company is owned by some investors and they are related to a larger corporation that is traded. But that's just a guess. Listen I can't wrap my mind around it anymore.

With regards to your last sentence, well, you find out by being a little guy who got loaded off, that's how you find out. As have around twenty more during the last year. They use all the tricks in the books to make sure you end up with no rights, no unemployment benefit and are thrown around like dogs. Well, I think it's criminal, but you know yourself that engaging in tricks, white collar crime criminals they get away with anything.

Sorry, can't deal with it here. I am done. It's over.

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mimi

In bankrupcy, wages are a first priority.

But, if you're done, I understand that. Sometimes, it's just time to cut your losses and move on.

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mimi's picture

company B happens all the time. Companies hire their workers over temp agencies and companies contract out their payroll and accounting duties to other companies. Then you have three entitities involved. Took my son some time in the beginning to understand, why he got paid by some other company than the one he worked for. When he finally was hired as a regular employee (still hourly basis), the company's paychecks were still issued by some other company.

Then they use a nice trick I also was not aware of. After having worked over a year for that company, they offered him a pay raise and guaranteed full time employment. He signed that contract, being quite happy, hoping his job situation would be a bit more stable. He had full time hours the whole time already, even over time etc, but now it was "per contract guaranteed" so to speak.

Six weeks later they staged a situation which gave them the opportunity to give him a warning for something he hadn't done and they couldn't prove. As they are under suveillance cameras 24h/7 the incidence they accused him of should have been provable on their surveillance videos. He knew he hadn't done what they said he did. So he refused to sign the warning (three warnings and you are fired), because my son didn't want to get a warning for something he had done. So they said they will search for the video and get back to him.

So, they called him in a couple of days later and showed him the video, which didn't prove anything (he was supposed to have scratched another employees car with his delivery van. The other employee was not supposed to park her private care on the company's parking lot, as they have separate parking lots for the employees's private car). So the video showed the van, but nobody driving the van in and out ot the dedicated parking space for the company's vans. Aside from the van was the other emplouees car. There was no proof that he had caused the scratcher with his van. Neither him or any other employee was seen on the video driving the car into the parking space. The scratcher was so minor that it hadn't even a dent So my son refused to sign the warning. The time marks on the video were clearly to see and the incidence that "scratching" had happened according to the employee, who complained about it, matched her statements made before.

Then they said in addition he had missed to check in some pallets into the warehouse system the day before in the evening and next morning they needed a part for a project they had scheduled for that morning. My son was sent to do a delivery on that afternoon, evening, when he came back, nobody of his co-workers was anymore there. And the warehouse with the pallets was closed. So, he couldn't have checked in the pallets on time himself, while being on a delivery at the same time.
He also couldn't have refused to do the delivery, ordered by his direct boss. They said that they found out that the part they were needing was in the pallet that were not checked in in the evening and found out the next day in the afternoon that the missing part was in those pallets. They had to postpone the work on that project for the day and it was his fault.

That was used to give him two more warnings each, not having communicated with other co-workers to check in the pallets (There were no co-workers in the warehouse left all gone by two to three o'clock). He was supposed to sign all the three warnings. He refused and they told him to take his paycheck and pack his stuff and not come back. That was on a Friday afternoon/evening.

Well, barely recovering from that shock, he was advised to go to the labor department to file the case and for unemployment benefits. He did and they told him that from all he could prove that has happened he was fired for no justifiable reason and that he might have rights to unemployment benefits.

Later he found out that, as e got this new, nice contract with a payraise, he also got into a new probatory period. Though he had done the job for more than a year already and his job description and responsibilities hadn't changed at all, he was now again in a probatory period, which gives the employuer the right to fire you nilly-willy legally. So, the trick was to lure him into a new contract to get him on to a new probatory period to fire him even if they don't have a cause.

Then he was instructed to look for work and hand in all the proof he had done so to the labor department, three times a week. So, my son went from one temp agency to the next. And he filled out applications online, a lot. He proved it to the labor department as instructed. There are more temp agencies than work or workers in that town. He signed with the temp agency and started to do the "Schlepp work" (warehouse schlepping boxes from freezers to outside heat, loading and unloading trucks etc.)

The lady at the temp agency, he signed up with, did know him, because she also processed his first job a year and a half ago to the employer, who had just fired him. She asked him if he had a co-workter with the name (xxx) and he said yes. Oh, the temp agencylady said, then it was a staged firing, because the same day he (my son) was fired a friend of his co-workter with the name (xxx) just got his job the next day, starting at Monday. Well, how nice is that?

A couple of days later the department of labor called him and said he is not eligible for unemployment benefits, because he is now "employed" by the temp agency. So, he had several interviews, each time he has an interview, he can't take the day job they might have at the temp agency in the morning, If he doesn't take those jobs, the temp agency will give him a bad review. On the other hand he is supposed to search for work and needs to go to interviews. Basically they put up a system that doesn't give someone a real chance to find a regular job, as they penalize you for going to interviews and with it missing out on a day's temp agency work offer.

My son just said, it's no wonder that this place has so many homeless (and homeless vets), because the way they "treat them" to find a job, you really have to have a lot of nerves to "play their system". My son just said Thank God he has a little bit of money. How are the dirt poor able to put gas into their cars to get to the temp agency's work places, is beyond him. I dunno either. No wonder the people out of jobs retire into the woods and give up.

Well, learning by doing. Clearly it's always the worker's fault. Blaming them to not have enough education, they get that rubbed in under their nose all the time, expecially if they are brownish or native-ish. "if you work hard and go to school" you will make it. Well, my son did some school (which is worth absolutely nothing) and did more than that, he killed other people who look like him in Iraq so that those "elite educated ones" can be "safe" in their country, sitting around and being drug addicts or being one those rich investor types from the West Coast and NY area, buying all the land, destroying the landscape with over development, residing in their mansions not working hard but living of their rental incomes they get from poor working folks who can't afford the rent.

Well, for a scratcher without a dent on a car, you didn't cause, you can get wiped out your lifelihood within a couple of hours. Really, what kind of labor laws do you have in the land of the brave and free?

I think there is a lot of good will broken in many folks.

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mimi

Just skimming your post very quickly, I am very sorry that your son had a problem. Someone may be both willing and able to help him, but I am not the person to be telling this to. I wish your son the best and hope something good happens for him soon.

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riverlover's picture

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

My most secret most depressing thought on this subject is: Perhaps we can do nothing. I think this is the first time I've posted that thought in words so stark.

If you want a flag that has flown over the capitol, though, I'm pretty sure your Congressional Rep will send you one. So there is that.

Now I feel obligated to pick up our spirits.

If this isn't the funnest (sic) music video ever, it has to be the most caloric:

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