My Conversation with Markos regarding his Lack of Cred with Bernie Supporters. .
So Kos wants to advise Bernie and his supporters how to help down ballot candidates.Bernie did not do it well enough and Kos has advice.
I say this.
TomP May 02 · 03:54:52 PM
Why would Bernie supporters listen to you?What a useless post.
A front pager jumps to attack:
David Nir TomP May 02 · 04:06:54 PM
So Bernie Sanders shouldn’t support downballot candidates because Markos suggested he do so?Reply 11 Flag
TomP kos May 02 · 04:20:33 PM
And Kos does his little tantrum:
kos TomP May 02 · 04:09:38 PM
I thought you guys wanted a more progressive Democratic Party. I guess I was wrong.So that’s right! Don’t support downballot progressives! Don’t build a bench! Don’t look toward building the party from the bottom up! Just be bitter and angry and then let history repeat itself in eight years because you didn’t feel that doing the hard work of building a truly broad-based movement was useful.
I’m sure that’ll turn out well.
And I respond:
I just think you have no credibility with Bernie supporters, Kos. None.
It’s not about your content.
I never said I would not support down ballot Dems. Those are all strawman arguments that you throw out at me. They really are disingenuous on your part and a bit of a temper tantrum.
You. Lack. Credibility. With. Bernie. Supporters.
That was my only point.
You can have a tantrum, but many folks are not listening to you anymore.
You made this.
The entire thread is here: http://www.dailykos.com/comments/1522373/61344166#comment_61344598
Of course, the Clinton supporters attack me with lots of insults. I'm "unhinged."
Kos and the front pagers don't get it.
Bernie supporters do not listen to them.
They are stuck with the Hillary supporters. Rah, rah team!
The funny thing is, I will vote for Hillary. Don't like it, but will.
But why would any Bernie supporter listen to Kos or the front pagers there?
Young folks are the base of the Bernie movement.
And I will follow their lead, and I sure won't know it hanging out at Daily Kos.
Comments
I'll Vote
Like many Bernie supporters I will vote for the Democratic candidate for President but only to keep the Republicans out of the White House. If Bernie isn't the candidate I'll work for the down ticket only. But in no way is my vote for Hillary. It is against the Republicans.
A dreamer is one who can only find his way by moonlight, and his punishment is that he sees the dawn before the rest of the world. Oscar Wilde
Yes, it is against the Rs.
But unlike many at TOP, I will not condemn those who go third party.
In my view, both paths have failed. So who I am to criticize one who tries again?
If I voted third party, which I am not going to do, I would support the Greens. They have been building a party for 20 years.
But, for now, I still am a Dem. Just barely.
Just can't do it
Got to try to make Jill Stein viable. I think most Bernie supporters feel that way even if they vote for Hillary out of fear. If we decide that fear itself is not worth fearing and come together, then Jill Stein could win, especially if she can pull in the independents that Bernie has been pulling in. At worst, Jill Stein as President would be ineffectual. At best, she could change the World the way we are all crying out for it to be changed. Hillary Clinton at worst is almost unspeakable. At best we make some increments in the right direction, but not nearly fast enough. I know Jill Stein is a good person, I certainly don't know that about Hillary. I'll see where things stand a couple of days before the general election in November.
Beware the bullshit factories.
Like Bernie, I'm in until the last vote is counted
The race is not yet over.
'What we are left with is an agency mandated to ensure transparency and disclosure that is actually working to keep the public in the dark' - Ann M. Ravel, former FEC member
Plan A is still very much in the fight
Just getting plan B in order.
Beware the bullshit factories.
Great points by BOTH Ms Grin and you!
This kind of exchange is exactly why I prefer C99% to TOP. And as far as voting for Hillary is concerned, I will cross that bridge IF I come to it. (I refuse to say " 'when' I come to it".)
"Just call me Hillbilly Dem(exit)."
-H/T to Wavey Davey
Exactly.
I will not consider any Plan B until Plan A has run its course because I cannot yet imagine which particular Plan B might need to be constructed.
The landscape at that point in time may look ENTIRELY different than it does now - this is a moment in time when we absolutely cannot see around the bend, imho.
'What we are left with is an agency mandated to ensure transparency and disclosure that is actually working to keep the public in the dark' - Ann M. Ravel, former FEC member
Who is Dr. Jill Stein?
Who would vote for her? She's a doctor. What experience does she have in politics, government, budgets, running for office? Is she charismatic, politically savvy? Can she run a campaign? Get media coverage? Nobody will vote for her. Get real.
There are videos of her out there
Her honesty shows through in complete contrast to Hillary. She does have charisma. She is underestimated because she is dismissed by so many in the establishment. She has the sanest policies in this time of accelerating climate change and she would not kill people for corporate profit.
Beware the bullshit factories.
She is not on all 50 state ballots.
I want to not vote for Hillary or Trump, but it's impossible to vote for someone who truly does not have a shot at winning because they're not on all the ballots.
Were we not going to put an action plan together to help get the Green Party viable?
Well, I will
I certainly won't vote for Hillary. I am taking no responsibility for that horrible mess.
No, I don't think anyone thinks the Green Party will win, that's really not the point. The point is, I can no longer support the DNC and their corporatist candidates while the world is facing severe climate change, food shortages, etc. I can't vote for someone who will sign TIPP into law or who will sell water rights to corporations and allow the rest of our aquifers to be olluted by fracking. Get real? This shit IS real.
So, speaking for myself, I have never gotten more real than I am right now.
^^^Great comment^^^
With you 100% HK!
Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men for the nastiest of motives will somehow work for the benefit of all."
- John Maynard Keynes
Go Green!
My personal decision is to continue pushing Bernie and the Democratic Party from the wide open left field of American politics.
There is absolutely nothing in [The Green Platform http://www.gp.org] that a rational person can disagree with.
There has also been some discussion of a fusion ticket between Bernie and Jill
https://www.google.com/amp/s/acronymtv.wordpress.com/2016/04/21/sanders_...
"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn
The Greens have a good platform and I
respect your choice. I'm still a Dem, but hanging by a thread.
The Greens in Germany had a good platform as well,
now I hear they are going into coalition with the conservative CDU (Merkel's party), because of the German Social Democrats having been too weak in the past to oppose the status quo politics of the EU, US and NATO influence on Germany.
I mean, tell me, how much more often can people flip flop on their bed fellows, if all they want is "love". Geez.
https://www.euronews.com/
We need to get rolling on that, if it's going to happen
Seems like some cart-before-horse going on, unless I've missed something (and I may have, it's been a little nutty this last couple weeks
)
Yes we need a table
that shows which states as of now have Jill Stein on the ballot and what the deadlines are for the remaining states. I was trying to figure that out from ballotpedia.org/Ballot_access_for_major_and_minor_party_candidates but it's very confusingly laid out there.
Beware the bullshit factories.
Here's a list from wikipedia
Ballot Access to 296 Electoral Votes: Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Delaware, Washington D.C., Florida, Hawaii, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Mississippi, New Mexico, New York, Ohio, Oregon, South Carolina, Texas, West Virginia, Wisconsin
..but i'm not sure how accurate or recent it is
Not me -- US!
Those of us not in swing states
have the freedom to vote our consciences -- if Clinton is in danger of losing true blue California my one lone vote isn't going to dig her out of that shithole. Those states where things can go either way in a heartbeat may have to swallow their pride (and a huge swig of their favorite adult beverage) before they head for the polls.
Markos is an arrogant fool, TomP
I started to read his diatribe over there, but the clueless condescension stopped me cold. Markos, who's been wrong about everything within ten miles of Bernie Sanders from the very start, presumes to give Bernie advice? Markos, whose little "Crashing the Gates" self-promotion over a decade ago got him a bit of minor celebrity from which he could retreat to safe and no-doubt prosperous Centrism, has accomplished nothing of note. Bernie, the Outsider's Outsider, has ignited the next phase of American politics and made the comfortable Democratic establishment uneasy. Their Bastille is coming, they now know, and their retreat into their little bubble of self-affirmation won't protect them.
I am and will remain a Democrat until there's a better alternative. But I'm leaning toward voting for Jill Stein. She's on the ballot in my state, and my vote won't threaten Hillary's good chances to win here. If Hillary needs my vote, she's already lost the election. I'd rather do my little bit to put Democrats on notice that we do have somewhere else to go. That's what I intend my vote to say.
Please help support caucus99percent!
If you can evolve on death squads
the term credibility itself becomes quaint and obsolete.
Thanks Dallasdoc.
Inadvertent multiple post
Apologies.
Please help support caucus99percent!
PLEASE STOP SAYING YOU WILL VOTE FOR HRC
unless you ARE voting FOR HRC
I am NOT... I will vote against TRUMP and if that means my check has to go next to her name then so be it BUT the party needs to know it is NOT a vote FOR her... And the second my anti trump vote is cast I will immediately go right back to doing everything I can to see us rid of the Clinton's and their 3rdway BULL chit.
Down ticket democrats NEED to understand a large part of the party does NOT support the 3rd way and if they continue to feed from that trough they will be primaried by extremely well funded opponents in every race they run...
Time to rock their boats for real. We have show. That crowd funded campaigns ARE possible... If down ticket dems continue to suck at wall streets teete... They are going to find their roads to re-election filled with boulders.
So PLEASE stop saying you will vote FOR HRC.... If what you mean is that you will vote AGAINST TRUMP.
Orwell was an optimist
No party-line voting for me anymore
You write,
Don't you realize, that is literally all the neoliberal conservadems have ever wanted from you? I have voted "strategically" and "holding my nose" and all that my whole life, and it's been a disaster. A vote is a vote. Hillary thanks you for your support.
As Benjamin Franklin may have put it, "Those who would exchange essential political conviction for temporary political victory will end up losing both and deserving neither."
I will vote for her because I think there will
be less pain than with Trump.
But I am fine with those who choose otherwise. Each can make his or her own choice.
That makes two of you at c99. eom
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
Ok with me.
Peer pressure at dkos never affected me and it won't here.
I'm not here to convert or be converted.
Nor should it
and I'm somewhat disquieted to see it here. You've explained your voting strategy. It's hardly nonsensical even though you are weighing the various parameters differently than me. I think the important concept in "your vote" is that it's yours.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
Completely agree
I will probably vote for Hillary while sick to my stomach. If others cannot do it, who am I to berate them for voting their conscience?
Completely agree
but I will absolutely not vote for Hillary.
Snapple is right. Each vote is a personal decision, and I sure as hell hope peer pressure will not become prevalent here. Let's leave the disparaging remarks to the assholes at TOP.
"The real power is in the hands of small groups of people and I don't think they have titles. -- Bob Dylan"
Doulbe post.
Damnit.
"The real power is in the hands of small groups of people and I don't think they have titles. -- Bob Dylan"
Good for you, TomP
and I am groping for the right words to characterize how TOP reacted to your comment. The best I can come up with at the moment is: "They drank the kool-aid and it ain't pretty"
I've been searching for a metaphor combining kool-aid
and "Thank you ma'am, may I have another?"
Hillary Clinton 2016: I'm a proud progmoderate!
Thanks wilderness voice.
double posted comment.
Please ignore.
That's kinda unfair, man.
Me, I'll be voting down-ballot only, simply because at 63 years of age I'm done holding my nose. But it's not fair to rag on somebody else for voting the way that's best for them.
What I Like About this Place...
...is there is no orthodoxy imposed upon you. It's free that way. Hope it stays that way.
I haven't made up my mind should it come to that, but Bernie already said he will do everything in his power to keep Drumpf from becoming president. I'm going to wait to see how that shakes out. I'm loyal to Bernie.
Bernie is a win-win.
So far, there is no orthodoxy.
Time will tell.
Thanks for commenting. I listen to Bernie also.
More than two, I think. Although it depends on what happens
between now and the convention, AFAIAC.
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I imagine a lot of C99 members will vote for Clinton
in the end. I'll vote for Jill Stein, which I can "safely" do in Chicago. I might vote for her even if Sanders were the nominee, since any Dem will win Illinois and I want the Greens to stay on the ballot. I truly don't know what I would decide if I lived in a so-called "swing state." I guess I would have to vote Clinton despite my genuine dislike of everything about her--her regressive politics, her arrogant out-of-touch personality, her loathsome family--because at least she wouldn't actively attack the "social" gains of recent years like marriage equality. I recognize how shallow and insincere the Dems' support of marriage equality really is--a cynical ploy to ensure that we never ever ever demand economic justice--but I also recognize that that stuff matters a great deal in the real lives of many and more Americans... and our real lives are all we have.
Hillary Clinton 2016: I'm a proud progmoderate!
Voting for HRC does further enable our DK bullies and tormenters
Not the best move — kind of anti-survival and self-destructive, really — for people who have been psychologically abused and traumatized Over There, if they are trying at all to move on, recover, and heal.
Yeah but DK is a just a place. A small place.
I realize there are people who thought of it as a political home. I didn't but I went there enough to grasp your pain. But it is a small toxic place in cyberspace. I say small, meaning in the larger scale of things.
I have family members and co-workers who voted for Hillary in the primaries. I am talking about people I respect, and some whom I love. These folks didn't try to bully me, nor I them. Even if I got a bit carried away at times. We talked and even argued. It hasn't been hateful--occasionally uncomfortable-- but there is a long march ahead to convince and educate (and listen to) people.
I really think that immersing yrself in the political blogosphere warps one's brain, but especially contentious sites full of basically anonymous aggressive opinionated people with who-knows-what agenda. Like that orange place.
What I am saying is I wouldn't make any real life political decision based on internet ranting of contemptuous aggressive self-righteous Hillary supporters in some now-dark corner of cyberspace, however once-beloved.
"Don't believe everything you read online." -- Epicurus (Greek philosopher, 341–270 BCE)
I honestly don't think
that Hillary would be less painful than Trump. She seems perfectly fine with the idea of going to war with Russia. She is quoted as saying that she views the world as a chess board with Russia as the opponent, and she wants to have a no-fly zone in Syria, which I'm sure Russia wouldn't be celebrating with confetti over. On the issue of war alone, I can't ever vote for Hillary.
Swing
Her warmongering is one of the main reasons I can't bring myself to contemplate voting for her, even here in swing-state Ohio.
"There’s nothing revolutionary about a movement that retreats into an endorsement of the lesser of two evils." Scott McLarty @ CounterPunch
Less pain than with Trump?
You 'think' this how? Trump is an expert in bloviating with no experience governing and Hillary has an extensive history in politics but dismal habit of saying one thing only to do quite another or just flat out lying. How can anyone make any declarative statement of comparison of two chimeras and the pain they will cause?
And which of the two has a serious plan to push back on the looming climate change debacle? Fracking ban? Leave it in the ground? Carbon tax? Phasing out fossil fuels across the board with renewables? From my vantage point of wanting to leave a survivable planet to our children and grandchildren both look equally dismal on this most portentous crisis.
Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men for the nastiest of motives will somehow work for the benefit of all."
- John Maynard Keynes
Trump is not the character he's playing on reality tv!
He is a business person, with an MBA from Wharton. Not dumb. He is doing his reality TV act to appeal to the celebrity culture crazed public. Effective too. Makes me sick, but then I've never watched reality tv, very little tv at all now, and couldn't name a celebrity if I had to. Other than my favorite folk singers.
I too, would vote for Trump over Clinton. Think he's less dangerous. From their first day in the White House, the Clintons schemed for their own benefit. Once out, made a literal fortune, talking/speeches, and funneling money (laundering, yes in many cases) through their foundation.
Think Bob Herbert, New York Times described it best years ago, paraphrase now: "Cut THEM Loose"
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/26/opinion/in-america-cut-him-loose.html
I will never vote to put the Clintons back into the White House. NEVAH.
NO party line voting until the Democratic party is back to what it was before taken over by Al From, Clinton, Gore, LIEBERMAN, DLC/Third Way/ Neoliberals. Only way to get rid of them is to VOTE THEM OUT OF OFFICE.
Trump is a racist and neo-fascist.
Going to Wharton does not change that. I never would vote for Trump. Never.
this will be a continuing discussion
we don't know what effect a Hillary loss would have on the Democratic Party. For all we know the powers that be will never concede that she's a bad candidate. They'll very possibly look for other people to blame instead of taking responsibility.
But I think a Hillary win would be worse for us than a loss. A Hillary win will convince those Dem leaders that they're right and they'll continue giving us $#^& every four years.
And a Hillary win would give us the worst of Obama and Bill Clinton, combined. I'd rather endure 4 years of Trump with the possibility that we can have something better in 2020 than another 40 years of bombing people in faraway places, shooting PoC and getting away with it, cutting benefits, fouling the air and water...the list is pretty long!
People are going to be very surprised,
especially at TOP, when Trump pivots for the general. He will get away with it, too, because his core supporters don't care about policy, they just want an alpha male to follow.
In any case he is already to the left of Clinton on trade, and probably to the left of her on ME policy if he is serious about working with Putin. It will be interesting to see who he decides to be for the general.
I almost passed out from shock when Drumpf said he's against TPP
I heard him say it on a "nooze" video (probably on YouTube; I no longer remember which one & I didn't keep the link).
Shocking that Drumpf is - in this ONE instance - farther to the left than $Hillary (well, she's right, right, right of center, but who's counting since she's a DINO).
Scary, but if Drumpf really is against TPP, that position could get some people to vote for him.
I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute ..., where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference. — President John F. Kennedy, Houston, TX, 12 September 1960
Trump is a nationalist
That's part of what makes him so attractive to people who feel like our country is being left behind. They are willing to let the ends justify the means. He's saying the right thing for the wrong reason.
prog - weirdo | dog - woof
I think he'll say anything to get elected. I don't trust him to
stick to his anti-TPP stance if elected. If there are good things in there for corporations that will benefit him when he goes back to private life, he'll vote for it.
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He was anti NAFTA in the 90s
His fans love one video of him in particular on Oprah talking about what he would do to make our country the winner. His take on China wins him a lot of support from families who remember working in steel mills and factories.
I think that quite a few people would like a President that bullies other countries on trade, because they feel as if we have been bullied by them, when in fact it is our own corporations that have betrayed us. Of course, talking about that is a big no-no in corporate media, but beating up on the other countries where we exported the jobs is just fine.
Whether or not he means anything he says, re: the TPP or anything else? I agree with you about whether or not he'll benefit in the end.
prog - weirdo | dog - woof
His own clothing line is still made in China. I checked at
Macy's just recently. It's been two years since David Letterman caught him in that hypocrisy and he has done nothing about it. Were he sincere, surely he'd clean his own house first?
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Why would he ever clean his own house?
I fully expect we'd get a billionaire Richard Nixon. One set of rules for him, another for everyone else.
prog - weirdo | dog - woof
Which very appropriately fits Hillary
One set of rules for her and another set of rules for the rest of us. By the way, you may grumble about Trump's stance on TPP--but I think he means it--whereas I don't trust a word of what Waffle Hillary says.
I uprated you for the discussion, but I don't think he means
it. I don't think either of them do. I think she will do whatever her corporate overlords tell her, and he will do whatever provides him with an advantage in terms of his personal fortune. So either way, if it benefits the wealthy, we're screwed.
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There seems an important distinction
whatever benefits him *might* benefit others. Now, to be fair, so far in this campaign, it is hard to tell how, but his messaging on trade has been pretty consistent over the years (I actually remember him talking about NAFTA back in the 90s, and saying something to the effect that he agreed with Perot, who as you might remember, was extremely anti-"trade" treaty). Whatever she does, OTOH, we know already it'll screw us. She'll sign that TPP in a heartbeat.
So there's that. A devil's choice, to be sure, but....
Trump has all of Nixon's insecurities
On the bright side, if Trump gets elected, we could get a nice juicy Watergate-style scandal out of it!
I also think Trump will tack to the center a bit.
Cruz is the truly dangerous Thug, because he actually believes the awful bullshit he spouts. Trump's only core belief is spelled T-R-U-M-P.
Hillary Clinton 2016: I'm a proud progmoderate!
Enduring Trump
He well could do things that are irreversible: war, environmental destruction, etc. As could Hillary. But it's not a simply a matter of enduring. There will be consequences to both presidencies that are unacceptable to me. Unfortunately, our system has presented us with two wholly unacceptable candidates.
all hypothetical
it's like those Hillary lovers saying Bernie would lose because he hasn't been tested by the Repubs. It's arguing something that does not exist. It might exist in the future...we don't know!
Same with Hills and Trump. Who would be worse? We don't know. Each is better and worse than the other on any two issues. If I thought Trump were worse on everything then I suppose I'd be tempted to vote for Her Ladyship, but I don't think that....so I don't really care which of 'em wins.
On that, I disagree.
Trump would be harmful to working class Hispanics and AAs.
I am an anti-fascist.
We'll just have to disagree. And I will work hard to defeat Trump.
Hillary is a Fascist too
Seriously
and she'll sell out women's uterii, from the sounds of it. Or at least "consider" it. (abortion restriction, she's "open" to "meeting the GOP halfway", I mean, WTAF, people???)
I don't really care which one of them wins, they're both worthless and dangerous to this country. I will not lift a finger to help either one, my energies are going downticket, to try and get a sane Congress to counter the assholishness that is sure to emanate from either White House.
Of COURSE they will!
I've seen it already:
If they think I'm owning that, they're delusional--people have been trying to tell them since 2008 that she's a LOSER with a history of LOSING. If Dems lose, it's because they insisted on putting up a LOSER candidate, when millions of people begged them to back the WINNER. If they want to be delusional, that's up to them. I'm not in charge of their "Party". If they lose, THEY OWN THE LOSS.
isn't it amazing what kind of
so-called successful academically challenged entrepreneurish a**holes come out of elite universities?
https://www.euronews.com/
If there were a single issue to vote on
that will literally save or doom the world, it is the TTP. Do you trust Hillary on that?
Neo-fascist or neoliberal
I don't use the label fascist, but I do know what a neoliberal is.
Trump has, so far, gotten 10 million votes in the primaries. His act is what he's selling, and as Paul M. has said, will change during the general. Remember Romney's "etch-a-sketch." BTW, it was Romney, when Gov of MA created Romneycare, model for Obamacare.
Not all broad brush labels are useful, or accurate.
And what of the former SOS?
The same title could be applied to her.
(Though, she did not go to Wharton.)
I would never vote for Clinton. Never.
If it is Hillary vs Trump
Trump will win in a landslide. Bernie can beat Trump and if he is the Democrat nominee I will vote for him. If Hillary is the nominee I'm voting for the Donald. His positions are much closer to Bernie's than the Clintons.
And HONESTY.
Agree he is not as stupid as he pretends. But he could have
played the clueless showman without the racism and sexism. That he would stoop that low is disgusting and speaks to his character and not in a good way.
I also think he really is an entitled bully used to getting his way and dread him trying to act the diplomat with other countries. I think he'd insult us into war.
I could be wrong about the second paragraph. But I am very sure about the first.
Never Trump!
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Ah, but he would never have gotten this far
without the racism and sexism, and that is because he appeals to the Repugnant BASE - and they are now rampant bigots. He's made the point over and over again about how "stupid" this whole thing is and how stupid his party is, and for those of us who know the truth in that, it's been like waiting for someone to wake up and see just how he's manipulating them in the same way Faux Noise, Rush, Hannity and all the rest have been manipulating them. He's not necessarily speaking to HIS character but to THEIRS!
As for him insulting us into a war, what on earth has Hillary done? Sure, maybe it's not at blatant, but do you think anyone in the world sees her as their savior? She's insulted more of the people on this entire globe than Trump ever thought about insulting. NO, she does not get my vote this year out of the fear of a T Rump. I'm sick of being blackmailed into voting for these shills.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
i'm not sure yet
... if i will abide by this.
i've been pretty pissed off by the process during this primary. everyone was tipping the scales for Clinton despite other Democratic candidates in the primary. the DNC, the media and the delegates, which includes my representative for CA-36. since he has already declared his support for Clinton, then i question my support for him. the delegates should have kept quiet during the primary process and let it play out but, apparently, being fair is no longer an attribute of the Democratic party. there is no question that i will go back to NPP status after the primary. henceforth, not every politician with a (D) next to their name will deserve my vote.
I would like to see all Red State voters
Vote Green or write Bernie in. I certainly will. My voting against the R's won't matter in my state so Imight as well send a message.
What if HRH lost all the Red States 60/20 with 20% for Jill Stein?
At the same time, I'm hoping most swing state voters make sure the fascist or the dominionist don't get in the White House.
The marriage between capitalism and democracy is over. –Slavoj Zizek
Everyone in a non-swing state...
should give their party a wake up call. Both parties need it.
I live in
Florida. Have been a Democrat my entire life. I will not vote for Shillary or a Republican. I would argue that those of us in swing states are the ones that most need to send a message to the establishment.
I don't know how you have done it.
Staying mild, but forceful OT, when many of us have lost it, and been punished. At least Markos will discuss at you, not with most of us serfs. He may be slightly afraid, just to engage.
We go on. Solidarity.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
I wanted to stay to
promote Bernie.
Now it matters less, so I told a little truth.
Got hide rated today for questioning whether the person saying he or she switched from Bernie to Hillary because Bernie is bad.
Said I don't think you never supported Bernie. March 2016 arrival, never in BNR, but I get troll rated. Did not even say he was a paid troll l because I don't know. Probably not, because paid work would be higher quality.
Told truth to Mark Sumner whatever his name is To Kos and David whatever.
Was polite, broke no rules.
FWIW, here's my reply
To one of the condescending assholes in that comment thread:
>boriquasi TomP May 02 · 03:20:44 PM
>I love it when you do this thing pretending to speak for every single Berner. It’s cute.
TomP speaks for me, and and I'm certain also my many Sanders supporting friends and family. Markos, and the other establishment suckups who write on the front page here have less than zero credibility with me.
Actually, Tom and I disagree on one thing: he says that he'll vote for Hillary if she's the nominee. That's becoming a minority opinion among "Berners". I support Bernie because I agree with his policies and ideas, and we need his revolution, but I also support him because he is the only viable candidate in the race. Hillary would be a disaster in numerous ways - equal or worse than whatever Republican is nominated - and I won't ever support her.
As far as down ballot support goes, we Bernie supporters are on it. For example, in the primary I'll be voting for every candidate I can in Oregon who endorsed Sanders and against every one who endorsed Hillary. In the general, I'll be voting, but I'll be very discriminating: if there's a candidate who represents me and not the donor class, then I'll vote for them, otherwise not. I expect a lot of other "Berners" will do similar: from now on, lesser-evilism is no longer a valid reason to vote for someone. In the next midterm election, we'll all be very active, supporting a slate of reform candidates who are not owned by the corporate interests that run the Democratic party. Bernie's revolution will continue long past this election and that's where we'll be. Any Democrats who want to create real change can always join us. Just don't expect us to give the establishment and its lackeys an iota of regard from now on, because we're through with them.
Tell the truth and run - Croatian proverb
I saw your comment.... Are you dead now?
More often than not, I am horrified by what I read there. I really can't understand why all those adult Bernie Democrats stick around to be used, abused, and bullied. If all of the grownups left that place, it would be a beacon for mean, stupid and igorant. Staying there lends them credibility and gives them cover. I am so glad to be free of that place.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
Not dead yet, but the night is young
I rarely go there anymore, don't read the BNR, OPOL, etc. I love those guys, and TomP, but the place is just a shitshow and isn't worth the increased blood pressure to wade through it all. Besides, I like it here and also the Kossacks for Bernie redit page. Feels more like a family of like minded
commie pinko rejectsbrothers and sisters.Tell the truth and run - Croatian proverb
I go there to rec and tip BNR, OPOL and a few others.
They are choosing to fight the good fight, and I want to support them. The rest can go pound sand.
Sticking around to fight is important
for the larger audience and historical record. That's why there is such a need to silence us.
That presumes someone actually gives a damn what
dkos publishes or thinks. Exactly who might that be? Ever see them quoted anywhere? The only people that care about that place are the people it pays and the junkies that hang out there. As a former junkie, I understand how hard it is to see the truth. Once you do, you'll be amazed.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
I enjoy guerrilla raids on the great Orange Satan.
Haven't been banned yet but still pushing the envelope. I like stirring up the smug Clintonites, which is ridiculously easy to do. And a read from BNR and OPOL are always refreshing. I think having an alligator swim in their goldfish bowl is fun--although as the bowl contracts (due to Berniecrat exodus) it does become a bit more uncomfortable--but, hey, what the Hell? So I invite those who have not been too revulsed by the trolls to go over to GOS and stir up the goldfish too. Very entertaining!
There haven't been "rules" at TOP since MB was fired as mod.
Now there's always a "rule" they can hit you with as needed, even if it's something invented on the spur of the moment to keep a troublesome member in line. "One rule to rule them all" indeed... and it isn't DBAD. More like DRTB.*
(*Don't Rock The Boat.)
Hillary Clinton 2016: I'm a proud progmoderate!
Yup. Got my permanent NR for uprating the truth.
And I find I really don't care. Kind of refreshing.
I had not seen you around. Now I know why.
This is what Kos does not understand. He unleashed that and still expects Bernie supporters to take his advice as he criticizes Bernie. It is not well thought out.
Not my problem.
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