Meet "Dr Jo" numero dos

G'day C99. The opening salvo....er.....first in the Meet Dr Jo series went about as I expected. On the negative side a couple members didn't read or didn't understand that I'm not seeking an argument. Go find a fence post if you want to win an argument. What any of you think about me is none of my business and, frankly, I don't care. The don't care part is unusual but I already knew and rejected what I was likely to receive from some directions before I wrote the essay. No surprise, nothing new, nothing to see here, move along. I said I would not respond to comments. I mean it. Add provocation, being outrageously wrong, and the strained nicety to the specific things I won't respond to. When there is a counter history, best wishes scream passive-aggressive to a Zen master of the passive-aggressive. Please. Tell me what you think. You can't offend me and I've surrendered my choice to response. Show all of us who you are. Fortunately, in most cases I accept and appreciate the welcome.

I'll add to the list of "we could do better" my request to read Dr Jo for his content. If you read it looking for what you disagree with or while forming arguments, you will miss an opportunity to learn from someone who knows what he's talking about. Reading or listening is not agreement. Contrary to what some may think I listen far more than I speak/write. I do so even when I think or know I'll disagree. It's scary how often my perspective changes. Dr Jo has done just that dozens of times. What I don't do is listen to the same people singing the same sour song who think they have something I want to listen to. Singing louder or more often doesn't make it a better song. A better song makes a better song.

The positives include some good questions and interesting perspectives. I have my answers (repeats from what I've learned by listening and reading not broadcasting what I might claim to know but don't really) but I'm going to let Dr Jo give his. He has standing, I do not. Unlike so, so many people I do not think I know better than the experts. I never will as my infectious disease specialist friend reminds me. Neither will you so don't try or pretend you do. You look silly. Yeah I know. Experts get it wrong now and then. (Dr Jo's "*mostly wrong" tag says it all when you discover what the * means.) Please don't try peddling the "but every doctor, nurse, scientist, the pharma crowd, etc. in the world is conspiring to make money off of the pandemic except the few I happen to believe". Those are the ones who speak the truth not the ones I disagree with, they're in it for the money. Unlike, of course, the pro tennis player, celeb, YT content provider, or bad comedian peddling outrage porn and thoroughly rejected cures, remedies, and preventatives. Old, old song with nothing to back it. Yup, they're peddling it in the interest of truth not the multi million dollar payouts and contracts. Dr Jo will get to that one at some point too IIRC.

The many positives I saw in the content inspired me to change the lineup of Dr Jo answers. The two answers I'm posting deal with misinformation and scientific dissent with respect to COVID and the pandemic. The second also introduces the topic of how science and medicine work. What follows in episodio tres will be analyzing scientific papers, studies, and their publication.

So. Should we have complete freedom of speech? Should we be able to say, print, or claim anything without consequences? Are all opinions, ideas, and points of view valid and sacred? These are things that have been argued here. Take the time to look at my previous content and you'll know what I think. For this link the question is about misinformation in regards to the Age of the COVID & Pandemic.

https://qr.ae/pGjT1v

How do we engage in "scientific dissent? Aren't all opinions of the experts valid?

https://qr.ae/pGEJKU

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forget about it. And turn down the insults, both direct and indirect.

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vtcc73's picture

@JtC @JtC I supported you with contributions well before the first request for donations. I supported you and publicly backed your moderation right up until I couldn't anymore. The last time I backed you on a moderation call, you proved me wrong within minutes of my post. That point was months after I came to question my desire to participate in a community that had become so toxic with the population and content quality dwindling. Dwindling as in excellent contributors walked away. (Does it seem strange that the scientists and medical people, few that there were, are all but gone?) The couple I spoke with had similar problems with the C99 community. I stayed and supported you and C99 well past when I should also have walked away. My sole purpose was to try to lower the toxicity and improve the conversations. By last summer I had all but given up then I stopped my support in last summer.

You and I should have had this discussion in private. Had you any respect we would have. This was your choice to make but was totally expected. Let's talk.

How any reasonable person could think much less say I want to promote censorship is beyond me. But then I suspect you didn't take the time to read and understand either of Dr Jo's answers. Or you did and something hit too close to home.

For the record I have always supported the right of anybody to say pretty much anything they want to say. There are no prohibited thoughts or words in my mind, only prohibitable actions. There are however objectionable ideas, thoughts, and words. It's subjective and not easily moderated. Not all ideas, opinions, or alternate narratives are deserving of rational consideration or respect. The people's right to say or think them is. Alternative facts unsupported by actual evidence are not always false, or actually factual, but usually are dead wrong and either way can be dangerous to others. That is the dilemma we find ourselves in with the pandemic. I support far fewer limits on what can be said than what I've seen here. I like to know about the closet racist. The white supremacist. The pedo. The paranoid. The people who only care about themselves. Somehow they can't not reveal themselves given the right climate and fertile soil.

I'll add a duty to question. A reasoned and self examined life requires us to question that which we do not understand or find reasonable. The right to be wrong is similarly necessary. The only sins associated with being wrong are to be wrong and promote it for your own benefit and to be wrong, refuse to examine your beliefs, assumptions, and ideas, and not admit and correct our errors. That's the self examination part that is so often omitted. I feel a duty to admit when I am wrong. Most of the time I do so which is a big incentive to be well enough informed and only speak when I'm qualified and can defend my position. Spending my life in aviation where performance and not screwing up in front of your peers was a great character builder. I learned to listen more than I speak and take my lumps when deserved.

I'm not the thin skinned type who sees insult and the desire to stop me from speaking my mind. The Dose crew with alternative views don't seem to feel so constrained in every post presenting content critical of alternative medicine, those with their own facts, and supporting the worldwide COVID responses. Funny how those are the posters who get these same warnings. Challenge the meta and you're being swarmed and you're the one who's insulting. Then *poof* you're gone. But that's not censorship. Right? Say anything we want except that vaccines and lockdowns work and deworming yourself, drinking bleach or urine(?!), "natural" immunity (two terribly wrong and confused ideas that don't belong near each other), and excessive doses of vitamins don't. Is that the bridge too far? I self censor myself here all the time because I have seen more than a few solid contributors disappeared from this site for the exactly the same charges. Convenient coincidence? A few did push too far intentionally with that purpose in mind. I even begged a couple to ease up and that we needed their voices. Others, oddly enough, seem to have disappeared because they challenged the content and medically/scientifically unsupportable alternatives and their supporters that have taken control of the site. Others simply left for their own reasons. But none of that is censorship. Right so far? Probably not.

The suggestion of insults either direct or implied is a stretch. Not for the first time I might add. There is a powerful difference between disagreeing with ones position and insulting them. A few of us don't seem to be able to make the distinction. There is more than one here who immediately claim harm and insult when their ideas are challenged. They see themselves being addressed even when they're not even in the conversation or been present. Their responses, of course, are fully acceptable even thought terms like "fucked in the head" and invites to in effect fuck off flew in retaliation and not for the first time. There, of course, is nothing wrong when the pack descends on those who challenge the Gish gallop content in the Dose. To see comments like:

It’s a relief to have a different perspective allowed here, if it will actually continue to be allowed.

indicates I'm not the only one who sees it. How many others won't speak up after seeing what is in store for them? I think the desparecidos might agree as well. Oh, wait. They're desparecidos they can't disagree but that's not censorship. Right.

So. Are we at a crossroads? I'll be happy to speak with you here, elsewhere away from prying ears in any media, or be disappeared. I'm not challenging your a-thor-i-ti. This is totally on you. Do your worst.

For those who want to get insight into the science and medical responses to this pandemic can read Dr Jo's content here: https://www.quora.com/profile/Dr-Jo-6
It's worth it if I'm no longer present. Otherwise standby for a chance to come to understand far more than from any other source I've seen in the past two years.

[Edit: It now appears that officially not all opinions are equal, valued, or acceptable here. TB is now insulting for offering her/his opinion. Add observation and criticism to the list of things that are insulting. Definitely not censorship though.]

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"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."

@vtcc73

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7 users have voted.

@JtC After:

If your mission here at C99 is censorship forget about it.

Surely you've got a few more tools in the box than hammers? After herding us cats for this long, I'd expect at least a few nut-drivers, screwed-up-drivers, a gauge or two, maybe a sharp paring chisel?

Yeah, vtc might be challenging some here, but not, in my opinion, in anyway stronger than others have and continue to do wrt covid.

The attraction of this site was that all views are welcome. True?

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6 users have voted.

@peachcreek

The attraction of this site was that all views are welcome. True?

But when a user comes to this site with a chip on their shoulder and throws insults around like there's no tomorrow then they need not apply. That, my friend, is a constant on this site. His attacks were personal, to the site, to its members, and to myself.

It's really very simple, if you can't act civilly then you're out of here. I gave this guy plenty of time and plenty of rope. His attitude and anger is on him.

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8 users have voted.

as in Animal Farm some are more equal than others.
It seems there are bone picking insinuations which are being applied
to this community at large. It needs not be this way.

Why should we, as a community, have to defend our opinions to one
which will not respond? Kinda empty.

Thanks for posting.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

...the coronavirus problem.

Some of us are looking at the bigger picture and have significantly higher standards about what is acceptable.

We can do much better.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato

I like his clarity, common sense, intellect, and splash of humor. I hadn’t ever ventured in to Quora because, dammit I don’t need another rabbit hole into which to fall, but it looks like I’ll be spending (too much) time following this gentleman’s writing. A breath of non-cultish fresh air regarding COVID. Thanks again for the intro.

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"facts" are flying wildly, so people who are not dedicated to an agenda must use filters - which are by definition almost as biased as the claims they intend to filter. And most filters prefer claims that contradict the dominant agenda, especially when the mainstream agenda's facts are themselves contradictory - or appear so.
ex: in the charts above re case load vs vaccination rate it seems to claim that vaccination actually increases vulnerability to a dangerous infection, but is there another possibility? Yes. A high vaccination rate may mean a very high rate of vaccination of the vulnerable, just not protecting the vulnerable enough to raise them to the level of those at a lower risk. This is somewhat believable, as it is consistent with the demographics of the ICU patients and the dead. Is it true? It is not strong enough to get past my filter, but my filter is ontologically irrelevant.
The problem is that dr. Fauci has placed himself outside my filter when there shouldn't even be a need for a filter.

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9 users have voted.

On to Biden since 1973

@doh1304

in the case of the US health authorities, Fauci proved himself negligent in dealing with the AIDS virus years ago. But he is still in a position of authority to guide us thru a Covid outbreak. And has lied, reversed and pushed Pharma solutions without regard to preventative measures.

If people who still entertain critical thinking skills were to look at the track record of this type of
public health officialdom, it is not difficult to surmise there is an agenda being promoted. Which
has less to do with public health and safety than corporate profit.

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on this site, or are there more arrows in your quiver?
You have proven your point that respect is not something
you care about. So?

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usefewersyllables's picture

that all of us have opinions, and that there are few enough actual facts available on this subject, which will inevitably lead to spirited discussion.

I find that I disagree with a number of the positions strongly held by various folks. I also know that essentially no strongly-held beliefs have ever been changed by mere words on a screen. As a result, I limit my participation in certain areas to statements of direct personal experience, which by definition will not apply to a lot of other posters.

Just a thought, but as another frequent poster says: "It doesn't have to be this way." The waters are muddy, and will be so for the foreseeable future. I personally don't see much advantage in stirring them further.

However, as is the case with all my writings: take what you want, and leave the rest. Your mileage may vary. Now, let's talk about music or recipes...

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Twice bitten, permanently shy.

@usefewersyllables on either quilting or composting.
Daily.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp

How to get the politics out of the composting bin? Wink

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usefewersyllables's picture

@QMS

there are so many people who do composting so wrong.

I...
must...
fix...
them!

"It doesn't have to be this way..."

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Twice bitten, permanently shy.

enhydra lutris's picture

@on the cusp

My composting track record is feeble, but we have done tons of it. Well, that's today's installment.

be well and have a good one

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4 users have voted.

That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

@enhydra lutris My neighbor, and 85 yr old guy, is the best quilter I have ever known.
And, composting...I will defer to others. I intend to put composting bins in my bathroom plumbing in that cabin in the high desert that I have already built in my head.
That is the most interesting conversation about 2 of the boringest topics on the planet.
By golly, we kicked it!

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

enhydra lutris's picture

@on the cusp

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3 users have voted.

That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

@enhydra lutris made quilts from clothes they had no use for. All stores sold the lining and cotton.
I remember women gathering, using a room for the hanging loom, gabbing about who the sheriff was messing with.

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3 users have voted.

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

I have no desire to see vdcc or Fishtroller gone from here.

Does it seem strange that the scientists and medical people, few that there were, are all but gone?

Ah, yes I remember them, and in most cases not that fondly - Alligator Ed excepted. And I remember well how scathingly insulting they often tended to be towards anyone questioning the narrative on election fraud, on virus origins, on vaccine safety and efficacy.

And now that many of the things they were asserting have been called into serious question, if not proven completely *wrong*... well, I kind of wish they were around to attempt to account for themselves.

I'm thinking their pontificating claims having fallen flat explains their absence more plausibly than irresponsible wild claims made by the likes of myself or a 'toxic environment'.

FWIW - anyone who has ever used water purification tablets (other than iodine) will have been 'drinking bleach' (ClO2 - chlorine dioxide)...

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TheOtherMaven's picture

@Blue Republic

Chlorine is routinely added to water systems to ensure safety. And if you have your own well and something happens to contaminate the water, you are supposed to have the well treated with chlorine and then the whole house water system flushed (note: this is NOT a Do It Yourself operation).

So yeah, Trump is a big fat blabbermouth, but in this particular case he was at least within sight of the target.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

Lily O Lady's picture

enjoyed your last two diaries, essays, whatever. I have spent less time here as my view of Covid doesn’t align with The Dose and the topic can’t help but bleed into other seemingly unrelated areas. I am looking forward to numero tres.

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"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

@Lily O Lady @Lily O Lady I wish he hadn’t because it was refreshing to see a different perspective re: COVID than the only one tolerated by The Dose inhabitants.

I’m going to look for more from Dr Jon though. And there are many good Twitter accounts of epidemiologists and infectious disease specialists to keep informed.

Be well.

Edited to correct spelling of COVID. Sheesh!

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Lily O Lady's picture

@TB mare

I’ll have to look for Dr. Jo too. He was also good for rip current info ;). I can use it if I ever get to swim in the ocean again.

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"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

@Lily O Lady Y n/t

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