Have We Forgotten What Bernie Sanders Taught Us?
I have been a supporter of Bernie Sanders for years. He and I are of an age. I was thrilled when he started up a revolution of positive change. Take a close look at the word positive. One of the definitions of positive from Merriam-Webster is " indicating, relating to, or characterized by affirmation, addition, inclusion, or presence rather than negation, withholding, or absence ." It is change we can believe in.
Sanders campaign dealt with actual policies. He told us what needed to be changed. He put forth positives like free tuition, a living wage, getting big money out of politics, etc. Here is a primer of his stances to remind you what we are fighting for.
I came over to Caucus 99 to get away from the hatred and negativity at the Daily Kos Front Page. You click on some of the diaries there and you can read the bile and absolute hatred oozing out of the words with personal attacks towards anyone they disagree with. The absolute refusal to even look at the truth in many cases is glaring. Truth doesn't fit their narrative so truth gets thrown away.
Bernie Sanders taught us to fight the issues not the personalities. He never stooped to personal insults to get his point across. He is the antithesis of Donald Trump. Sanders had us look at the issues and solutions to problems. He knows you can not correct problems with rhetoric. You have to have thought out solutions.
As I have mentioned before I don't do political that often but a diary yesterday really made me furious. As my brother has said don't piss off the red-headed Irishwoman. This diary was a nasty hit piece claiming the President did not care about the Louisiana flood victims and was just playing golf. As we saw today and as the Louisiana Governor has said repeatedly that is not true. The facts that this diary ignored were 1) President Obama has been on the phone with the Louisiana Governor since day one 2) FEMA has been in touch with the Louisiana Governor since day one 3) the Governor has had no complaints about the President or FEMA and that it is in contrast to Katrina and everyone on the Federal side did their job and 4) the Governor asked the President to wait until after the rescue efforts were done before coming because it would take away resources in helping flood victims if the President were there and resources were needed to protect the President of the United States. Contrast the actions of the President with Donald Trump who ignored the request not to come because it hindered rescue efforts. Contrast the Play-Doh from Trump with the instructions from the President of who to contact to help the victims.
I can understand that not everyone is happy with Obama. I can understand that everyone is not happy with Hillary Clinton. However Caucus 99 is supposed to be different from the Daily Kos and their Clinton trolls. When we engage in the same behavior as they do, when we throw out lies, and personal insults we are acting contrary to what brought us together in the first place which is the passion and vision on Bernie Sanders.
I would ask those who are writing hit pieces about Sanders betraying us to look at reality. The reality is that we were robbed of the election and Sanders knows it. The reality is that he was threatened by the next Senate Majority Leader Charles Shummer with having all his leadership roles taken away so he could do nothing in the Senate. There have been a lot of whisperings that Sanders and his family were threatened if he did not come on board. Threaten a person's ideas and he can fight back but threaten his family and he has no choice but to do what he has to to protect his loved ones.
We have plenty to go after Clinton with in her ideas and what she has done. We do not need to descend to schoolyard behavior and name calling. Sanders showed us how to fight ideas. Have we forgotten already? Since when do our diaries mirror the vile hated of the Daily Kos Clintonites?
We have an enemy to fight and his name is Donald Trump. We need to unite in fighting him not each other. We need to take the high road or the people we are trying to convince to vote against Trump will rightly be able to say that there is no difference betweens Trump's hateful rhetoric and our own. You fight for beliefs and ideas you don't sink to denigrating individuals you disagree with. I am more than willing to use facts, examples, and proof to fight Trump. I am not willing to descend to the hateful name calling he engages in. I've made my choice now you need to make yours.
Comments
michele thank you
I refuse to ever use that man's name in print (the don not Bernie). He loves the internet trolling for mention of same. Instead of rump, what name should I use?
Look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Try to make sense of what you see, and wonder about what makes the universe exist. Be curious. Stephen Hawking
His given name:
Drumpf. There's even an addon for Mozilla & the Google to change any typage of trump into drumpf. We can use drumpfster in competitions for consecutive syllables... To return to seriousness, well, I'm sorry! Not capable: had my ration of wine and in silly town now. But seriously, how is a candidate for the dem party so susceptible to valid attacks so unopposed?! That's some orchestration if you ask me!
Mr. Tribblehead. eom
Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.
'The Hairball' via hecate is what we call him.
Good job, Michelle!
High five!
There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.
Bernie taught us to reach out to each other
I was always impressed by the way he would take a few minutes and talk to the folks who didn't make it inside his rallies (like in Seattle last March.)
I also agree that Obama is doing something. Trump is probably not even aware of the problem, and Clinton doesn't want to "distract" anyone. Jill Stein was on the ground helping with the relief effort in a town that seems to have been forgotten (sorry, they use FB for media releases and it annoys me too...)
The title of the essay you refer to was kind of nasty and I didn't bother reading it. On the other hand, I think Obama has many things to answer for in Syria, but blaming him for things that he didn't do doesn't make anyone want to consider things that he may well have done. And unfortunately, those "things" are issues and it is hard for people to be civil when so much death and destruction is involved.
Nothing is black and white. Obama voted against the war when Clinton voted for it. That doesn't mean that I won't hold him accountable, but he starts off with more in the bank than she does.
We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg
Bernie did not teach me anything.
He did speak to the truth, which I have known since a child.
What was amazing was that he, as a Senator, talked about what families talked about at the dinner table.
At least my family.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Well SAID!
Now that's the spirit of Berniecracy (as it was, not as it currently is)
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
And yet, he bowed
instead of fighting.
The reality is that he was threatened by the next Senate Majority Leader Charles Shummer with having all his leadership roles taken away so he could do nothing in the Senate.If this is true, as many say it is, he should come forward with it himself. Until he does, is just plain conspiracy theory (CT).
I lost much rank in my career in the military. Not by doing a bad job but by being very vocal about those who abused the chain of command. I never backed down and put my head between my legs. I just pissed them off by getting my promotions back again.
Bernie needs to speak up or everybody else needs to shut up.
His backing of a person, so against all his ideas until the wind blew the right way, was sign enough that he will allow himself to be neutered on all future changes he wants.
Nice post. Don't get me wrong but if they can't beat Trump without my help, it was never meant to be.
Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.
I expect the threat was much worse than that.
And yes, of course this is CT, but this is a speculative topic. I'm telling you what I believe; feel free to think it's as crazy as a bowl of Fruit Loops. (I think people have a right to state their beliefs, as long as they make it clear that their beliefs are not the same things as facts.)
This is what I believe: Sanders was threatened to pull him in line and keep him there, and the threat had nothing to do with people working with him in Congress. There's no way the Clinton Party will give him anything he wants in Congress, anyway; not after he inconvenienced Hillary and made her look bad. Which he did, mainly, by contrast, and the only way it could have been avoided would have been for him to leave the race after 3/15 like she expected him to. Clintons are vindictive bastards. They don't forget, and they don't forgive.
As far as beating Trump, I'm with ya there, but I'll add this: anybody who can rig a primary as well as Hillary Clinton doesn't need my vote for anything.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
It's not the CT that bothers me.
It's that if it is true, Then Bernie folded.
He is very high profile and I believe threats against him should be acknowledged and made public.
Snowden faces much more in the way of true national threats and he is risking his life to expose the corruption of our government. If Bernie was threatened, what character does it show if he says nothing?
Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.
So do I:
But how do you propose he "make public" such things? The problem is the reporting of it will be compromised or used against him insultingly, it will be postulated that he's CT-ing, etc.
So what. It's not as
though the 'reporting' by the ministry of fear and propaganda has any validity to anyone with an unwashed brain. I think people are smarter then this. i took an online poll at the Guardian about the news media online and off and a whopping 70% said they don't believe a damn thing that the media pumps our as news or even politics. Since the media so called progressive and conservative worked in concert with the powers that be to rig the primary election why does it matter if people say it's CT? People say a lot of stuff is CT if it doesn't follow the ridiculous story line were told is factual and nothing but the truth so help me god.
It's not like they didn't insult him before he acquiesced and kissed the bitch's ring. Their is no more fourth estate, no free press, and people need to stop dancing to their tune especially the pols who are not yet compromised. Bernie compromised every thing he preached and regardless of his reasons there is nothing that lets him off the hook for campaigning and working for the Democratic party and the inevitable one.
You can't talk political revolution and then turn around on a dime and call the platform or the D party the most progressive ever and start lying your ass off about the crooked Clinton crime family. the least he owes his movement ids the truth. He obviously knew what they were about before he took them on. I see no reason why if threatened he did not just end his campaign call her the winner (lol) and exit the stage.
Instead he has lent his hand to of this phony baloney Our Revolution that works to get better Democrat's elected . Now where have I heard this bs before. No I'm not throwing him under the bus. This bus is not going anywhere I agree to or have ever been on. I purpose he gets up and tells the people who believed in our political revolution the truth of what happened and quit playing for the very people that rigged the primary and stand for everything he purportedly was against.
I expect the threat was much worse than that.
And yes, of course this is CT, but this is a speculative topic. I'm telling you what I believe; feel free to think it's as crazy as a bowl of Fruit Loops. (I think people have a right to state their beliefs, as long as they make it clear that their beliefs are not the same things as facts.)
This is what I believe: Sanders was threatened to pull him in line and keep him there, and the threat had nothing to do with people working with him in Congress. There's no way the Clinton Party will give him anything he wants in Congress, anyway; not after he inconvenienced Hillary and made her look bad. Which he did, mainly, by contrast, and the only way it could have been avoided would have been for him to leave the race after 3/15 like she expected him to. Clintons are vindictive bastards. They don't forget, and they don't forgive.
As far as beating Trump, I'm with ya there, but I'll add this: anybody who can rig a primary as well as Hillary Clinton doesn't need my vote for anything.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I'm not sure if it was you,
or I, who missed the point of the diary.
There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.
I disagree Pricknick.
"You are the revolution." Forget the military background conditioning for just one moment. I am not looking for a magic wand or a saviour. Help if you so choose or take a seat at the back of the bus. Do not discount the value of every voice for peace.
Look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Try to make sense of what you see, and wonder about what makes the universe exist. Be curious. Stephen Hawking
What?
My conditioning was done long before the military. If not, I would have complacently fallen in line. Nope.
And who gives anybody the right to tell another person what part of the bus to ride on? Rosa Parks would roll.
Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.
Amen. This still is
Bernie's race to win. Neither Hillary nor The Donald could win prom queen. Then or now. All he has to do is get back in it, start booking those appearances. Fifty states in fifty days. And... he may have bowed to The Machine privately, but his, "Mdme, Chair, I move that the convention suspend the procedural rules... and I move that Her Highness, ~err Hillary, be selected as the nominee of the Dem party for president of the United States," was not a public bow. He did not say,"I wholeheartedly endorse Hillary as the... " Hell, "support" was as close as he ever got to "endorsing" her. Now, some may quivel about semantics, but if Bernie even halfheartedly endorsed Her Highness why didn't he say so? Exactly. Bernie tap danced around the word, endorse, never once using it.
He can still win it. There still is time, and HRC is barely hanging on to an 8 point lead. Eight points against the weakest candidate the GOP could ever have mustered. Bernie still can win it. He just needs to get back in it.
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
Oh, just move on already
Bernie is out, he's gone, he's done, he's not coming back, and the sooner you accept that truth, the better. The dem establishment is not going to give Sanders the nomination, even if Hillary is rendered completely incapable from ever running for president. They'll just give the nomination to someone like Biden, and the loyal democratic voters who backed Hillary and ignored how horrible she is will cheer and applaud and pull the lever for him in November, not caring that he didn't have anybody vote for him in the primary. Sanders is out, and he's not jumping back in.
There still is a path.
And, there is no Bernie Revolution without Bernie. Hell,"Our Revolution" is practically toast before it gets started, what with all those former staffers jumping ship. No Bernie, no bern.Time to buy some land in Arizona, buy a used RV, and ride out the the apocalypse. Funny how all those Mad Max / Zombie movies coming true right before our very eyes. Or not.
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
I realized what Bernie was up against
when he came straight from a meeting with Obama and a reporter had to tell him that Obama had endorsed Clinton. He looked like he had been kicked in the gut and I felt like I'd been kicked too. I and a lot of other people broke down in tears.
Bernie is just a man, not a god. And at least, he's still alive, which is more than can be said of some other people.
But yes, focus on the issues. Both Tribblehead and Her Majesty have plenty of faults but they are fighting each other anyway. Let them have it. Let us talk about income disparity, debt overload, and the earth.
When I become discouraged, I remember that Siberia is burning, including parts of what used to be the permafrost. Then I pick myself up, have a good stiff cup of coffee, and go again.
Life is strong. I'm weak, but Life is strong.
I have seen you write a few of these diaries now, Michele.
I am not sure what your aim is here, but this probably going to go over like a lead balloon.
Here's why: I very much want you to have your say in how this site functions, and I don't want to bully, but I also don't want to be told what to do, how to think, or how to behave. Quite frankly, I got enough of that shit on DailyKos and from the Democratic Party, and I don't want to deal with it here. I have a feeling I am not alone in that.
There are many diaries and comments I disagree with on c99p, but this website DOES NOT promote ideology, OR Bernie Sanders. There are many, many people here who do not like Bernie Sanders. That's their right. Just like on Dkos, there are people I ignore here because I know I won't agree with 'em. You are not required to read every diary, or even agree with them.
"Positivity" is in the eye of the beholder. For example, I think it's a much more positive enterprise for me to have c99p as my web home and disagree with some folks some of the time than to remain on Dkos where I disagree with pretty much all of the folks all of the time. c99p causes me much less stress and heartburn than TOP ever did. That's a net positive.
Your last paragraph really does not work for me, at all.
I reject your either/or scenario. I do not have to become a Democrat in order to fight Donald Trump. You should also know that a few people here are voting for Trump. I don't agree with them but, again, their choice.
According to who? You? I agree that people should not call each other names, but again, I think we are more united at c99p against Hillary Clinton, not necessarily against Donald Trump.
Then don't. But, let me tell ya, I don't like being condescened to. It drives me absolutely nuts.
About what? How to behave?! I was not aware that we had to make any choice at all.
I really wish I understood your goal here. I know that c99p can be tricky to navigate, and it is very different from Dkos in terms of content, but I don't like it when c99p is spun as being "the bad guy" somehow. If your goal was to defend Senator Sanders, I would submit that I don't think he needs defending. I'm extremely appreciative of Bernie's presidental campaign and all that he's accomplished, but I don't think I'm loving the direction he's currently heading in. And I disagree that I need to follow him now just because I followed him before. The circumstances are very different.
Good luck to you, Michele. I do hope you find what you're looking for, either here or elsewhere.
I miss Colorado.
Well said, Shiz.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Same here.
And hey, I would send this off to Top Comments but misplaced the address.
A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.
lol, thanks!
That made me laugh pretty hard. Hee hee.
I miss Colorado.
Shiz
a voice of reason. Thank you
Look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Try to make sense of what you see, and wonder about what makes the universe exist. Be curious. Stephen Hawking
The Point
If Trump becomes President with a Republican Senate and House then people like my brother and I who live totally on Social Security and Medicare are going to have serious problems even surviving until the next election because Social Security and Medicare will be cut to the point we will not be able to physically survive. You may have the resources to survive Shiz but Reid and I do not. Defeating Trump is not political for us it is a matter of whether we will physically survive a Trump and Republican four years. A literal matter of life and death.
A dreamer is one who can only find his way by moonlight, and his punishment is that he sees the dawn before the rest of the world. Oscar Wilde
I do understand that. I really do.
However, I refuse to be blamed for the shenanigans of the two major political parties. Both the Democratic and Republican parties have offered us absolutely terrible candidates. It is not the voters' collective fault that the PTB suck and only seem to want to take care of themselves and those like them.
Your argument, while certainly imporant for you and your brother's health and well-being, is a non-starter. It doesn't make any sense to blame the people with no power when the people with all the power offer us Shit Sandwich #1 or Shit Sandwich #2.
Take it up with them.
I am offended by your comment. Deeply. You have no idea of my life circumstances, and you'd be wrong about what I can and cannot afford. You just insinuated that, if something bad happens to you or your brother, then it will be my fault.
Fuck that. Just no. And please stop with the guilt trips, that bullshit does not work on this website.
I miss Colorado.
EXCUSE ME!!!!!!!!!!!!
How the fuck dare you! I never said you were responsible. I said I don't know your situation and I insinuated NOTHING! You are reading stuff into what I said. I said Reid and I won't survive but your answer quite clearly says you aren't going to fight for us.
You owe one hell of an apology.
A dreamer is one who can only find his way by moonlight, and his punishment is that he sees the dawn before the rest of the world. Oscar Wilde
Get a room, you two :-P
Frankly, BOTH candidates are utter poison for anyone who isn't in the .01% - Trumposaurus because he breaks a lot of wind and will likely do nothing/get nothing achieved, and $Hillary because she WILL claw out the last pennies she can get from anybody and everybody she can get them from (and will lie herself blue in the face before, during, and afterwards about how she's not doing exactly what she IS doing).
I trust neither one, detest them both, and don't intend to vote for either one - regardless of any other considerations whatsoever. And I'm not exactly in a secure financial position either, so everybody STFU about that.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Cry-bullying people into voting for Hillary
Just like the rest of the Internet.
Easy, girl. [[hug]]
Life is strong. I'm weak, but Life is strong.
Uh, no
you really should apologize to others for laying guilt trips on them about your own situation. I don't own your problems any more than you own mine. Inferring that Clinton won't touch Social Security and Trump will is misguided at best. I feel certain we've been over this...
It's one thing to set up
A go fund me page and ask me to help you (which I probably would) it's another thing entirely to ask me to give you my vote by guilting me into it. That "argument" is not helpful. Especially when you've personalized it in this way, setting up any response other than acquiescence as unfeeling and cruel. This is a fucked up conflation of two different things.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Even in your reply, you give yourself away.
Fuck that. I am a proud progressive, and I will fight for the little guy every single day of the week and twice on Sundays. The only thing I'm sorry for is that you and your brother are not doing well. I can still have some compassion, Michele, but you would apparently rather place blame where it doesn't belong.
I refuse to accept any blame. You personalized your response to me in such a way that you did, in fact, insinuate that it would be on my head if something bad happens to you or your brother. That's a disgusting thing to insinuate.
I owe you nothing. In fact, I think you owe the community an apology for insinuating that people who don't vote for Hillary Clinton are not only mean and cold, but do not even care about life and death.
Fuck that.
The only reason I keep saying "fuck that" is because I can't say what I really feel. That would pass the DBAD perameter.
I miss Colorado.
This is a fairly transparent political move, actually.
Guilting progressives because they won't support your horrible Democrat du jour, and implying they will then be responsible for all the horrors that ensue under a Republican administration, is as old as Al From.
What I want to know (heh) is: who is responsible for all the horrors that ensue under the administrations of these horrible Democrats? Wouldn't that be me, if I voted for them?
If the poster is sincere, she's going to be horribly disappointed. Relying on Hillary Clinton to protect your Soc Sec benefits is a fool's errand. I say this as someone one of whose family receives Soc Sec disability. I'm no less scared of Hillary's effect on those benefits than I am of Trump's.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Yup, you are right on every count.
I really hoped to escape the Democratic guilt-trip bullshit when I left Dkos. Everytime it's happened on c99p, I've been both surprised and dismayed.
It's not that I'm unsympathetic to Michele's plight, but I am unsympathetic to her argument.
I miss Colorado.
But somehow you are okay with Clinton's plan to
privatize social security? Remember that Bill would have done it during his term if he hadn't got caught with his pants down.
Everything I have read about Trump and social security is that he has no intention of touching social security (and, in fact, has said he would like to strengthen it), so I am not sure where your fear is coming from. Trump refers to social security as an earned benefit, not an entitlement. You don't see Democrats using that language.
I suggest you take a look at Trump On The Issues. In addition, even the current Republican platform states that for current and those who will soon become recipients of social security, there will be no changes.
Obama offered social security to the Republicans on a platter. Because they had chosen to not work with Obama on anything, they let that one slip for the time being. They won't pass it up again with Clinton.
Being on social security myself (and at the low end of the scale already), it is a topic very near and dear to my survival, so I look for facts rather than listen to fear mongering.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass
Be wary of terms like "reform" and "strengthen."
"Reform" these days means cut, end or otherwise undermine. Hence, Bill Clinton is said to have "reformed" welfare because he "ended welfare as we know it." "Strengthen" Social Security (OASDI) often means cutting it, in one way or another, so *wink wink* it lasts longer. Nancy Pelosi said chained CPI would strengthen OASDI. I believe Hillary has promised to "strengthen" OASDI. Unless a politician is very specific about how he or she is going to "strengthen" OASDI, I assume it means cuts of kind or another. We need to eliminate the cap, but none of them will do that, especially Democrats, who fear their "tax and spend" label.
In my opinion, New Democrats are a bigger threat to OASDI than
Republicans. If you had become dependent on a social safety net in a different way, you would have been dependent upon welfare. No Republican actually ran for President on ending "welfare as we know it," then boasted about having done it. Bill Clinton did that. It was a primary way he achieved the "modest budget surplus" that he and Hillary have boasted so much about since he left office.
While Obama did not run on "reforming" "entitlements," he promised to do that before he ever took the oath of office. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/15/AR200901... He cut fuel subsidies for the poor. http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/11/news/economy/obama_heating_cuts/ He also signed several SNAP cuts (sometimes still called food stamps) into law.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/10/28/food-stamps-will-...
http://www.results.org/issues/supplemental_nutrition_assistance_program/
http://www.cbpp.org/research/food-assistance/more-than-500000-adults-wil...
I don't think the above links represent all the cuts to SNAP Obama signed, but maybe you can google that on your own.
When negotiating with Republicans, Obama, not the Republicans, put Social and Medicare on the table. http://www.crewof42.com/news/conyers-on-jobs-weve-had-it-lays-out-obama-...
Some say Obama was playing 13 dimensional chess. I think the only reason that OASDI has not been "reformed" is that Republicans decided not to go along with him on ANYthing, including that. Maybe you want to base your only income on a 13 dimensional chess theory. That's your choice. But please don't portray people who believe what he says about "entitlements" as not caring about people on Social Security. Nothing could be further from my mind. I simply take Obama at his word on that, and his actions with regard to fuel subsidies for the poor and SNAP sure didn't make him seem like a liar.
Nancy Pelosi claimed that chained CPI is not a cut to OASDI. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/19/nancy-pelosi-social-security_n_... That is a lie. She said chained CPI would "strengthen" OASDI. That is Doublespeak. So, when Hillary says she will "strengthen OASDI, I believe she, too, means, at a minimum, chained CPI.
Please notice. I have not called anyone a name, though I think many politicians amply deserve to be called names. They have earned that and more. I also have not engaged in wild speculation. I have cited facts about their statements and actions and backed up my statements.
New Democrats have attacked the New Deal and the Great Society, aided and abetted the policies of Reagan and Poppy Bush by continuing "trickle down," and getting NAFTA and other trade deals passed. As much as you depend on OASDI, people depended on the jobs that left this country and their payroll deductions are what paid for OASDI. New Democrats also instituted for profit prisons, and cut SNAP and fuel subsidies for the poor. That's just a taste--and I'm not even at serial drone murder or other foreign policy or "national defense" issues.
Forgive me but I think your image of New Democrats is based on unexamined assumptions and wishful thinking. Their rejection of the Democratic past is the very reason they call themselves New Democrats. New Democrats are far more like Reagan, the President of the 1980s, than they are like FDR or LBJ. But, don't take my word for that:
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsg0gfNi424]
Word. Fantastic comment.
The supposed "New Democrats" and the outright neoliberals have literally ruined the Democratic Party.
Thanks, Bill, Hillary, and Barack. Jesus Christ, it is a shambles. The reason why people keep saying there is no difference between the parties is that it's so miniscule that you need a fucking magnifying glass to see it.
I miss Colorado.
Thank you. Much appreciated.
Thank you very, very much.
This is absolutely the point.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
It took Nixon to go to China.
It will take a Democrat to cut Social Security and Medicare. As part of her "legacy", I can see Hillary Clinton making a grand bargain that involves cutting SS and Medicare. And believe me, I care. My wife is on SSDI and would be dead without Medicare.
But Trump is not my enemy. I won't vote for him, but I cannot in good conscience vote for an evil war-mongering lying threat to the future of America like Hillary Clinton. Just ain't happening.
It also took Reagan and Poppy to raise taxes.
Reagan raised a lot taxes and fees and Bush famously agreed to one tax increase in return for (I think) pay go. Still, Republicans "held his feet to the fire." When Democratic Presidents betray the party, they get re-elected.
Wow. You think Hillary Clinton will
save your Social Security.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
methinks you are too reactionary
The President cannot pass legislation, or spend money on his own. SS and Medicare are a great talking point to gain votes, but very Republican I know is quick to scream bloody murder if there is any suggestion that they will lose Social Security benefits. They just don't want to have to pay in, or match their employees contribution. The GOP candidates know full well that SS is a sacred cow that will get them kicked from the barn if they take it away from the bread and butter greed fest in the cushy DC barnyard. GOPPERS are simply required to talk the Party line, but IMOP, will not risk offending the constituency. And do realize that it is Bill Clinton who was talking with repugs about restructuring SS, and Obama weakened it by giving a "holiday" from it by reducing the rate for a period of time to appease TPTB. It is one tax ( the shitheads in DC have redefined it as an "entitlement") that benefits the taxpayer directly. If the IOU's the legislators have signed were to never have happened, or were paid back, there would be a very solvent retirement fund, but...you know as well as I that the fund has been repeatedly robbed by both parties over the years...
If I were a CT person...and I lean there after this primary; I believe it would get really ugly if Hillary does not get to experience her "Coronation". TPTB are too invested, and have too much to gain from a Clinton Presidency. You know all that military hardware being distributed to Police Depts. nationwide?? I'm afraid it will be rolled onto the streets if there is a threat to "Hillary's Turn"
thanks shiz...
well stated!
I agree
I personally find the "Bernie abandoned us" viewpoint to be uncompelling. But rather than rail against those who hold it, I'd prefer to simply argue my point. And it's not like it's very hard to argue either side of that one.
On the "Obama is golfing" bit, as I remember the commentary it was hardly a pig-pile on Obama. Didn't someone pretty early in the comment thread come up with the quotes from the state authorities?
I don't agree with a lot of what's posted here but the way to avoid going the route of GOS is to debate points with facts rather than ideology.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
Thank you Shiz,
you said it much better than I could. In fact, I ain't gonna say anything at all.
"Love One Another" ~ George Harrison
Same here Shiz
Speaking for the site, we are non-partisan, and we prove it routinely.
Speaking only for me, I don't appreciate Michelle lecturing/guilting me. I also have a problem with this being an open thread since it is in direct opposition to the sites non-partisan mission statement. Michele writes an open thread for c99, but is everything she writes an open thread? It appears she thinks so since I've never seen her publish anything that wasn't pinned as an OT. Not even Johnny and Joe do that. I did not follow her series at dkos, which I thought was suppose to be her OT here. So frankly, I have no idea what this is.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
I agree that we need more positivity--
However, I don't think I've seen anyone lie about Hillary Clinton on this site. There's been some speculative stuff about her health, which wasn't IMO entirely proved, but I don't require that a blog post provide jury proof of something, just present a hypothesis with some evidence and let me sort out whether I agree.
As for personal insults, I totally understand why people want to insult Hillary Clinton. She, and the forces she represents, are essentially destroying our country. Also, she just fixed an election, or had one fixed for her, and people don't like that.
That said, you're right; we need to focus on something less negative than attacks on Hillary, no matter how well-founded.
As for Bernie, when people say he betrayed us, or ask whether or not he did, I see that as justified, honest responses to a man who ran a campaign against corruption and then endorsed the poster child for that corruption. And actively campaigned for her.
I'm personally not angry at Bernie for that, because I assume we're living in Al Capone-world and that somebody made him an offer he couldn't refuse. I'm only angry at Bernie because he lacked the foresight, somehow, to see that obviously he'd end up exactly where he did. He seemed almost like the election fraud, the voter purges, and all the other bullying was unexpected to him, and that he thought, after making a good showing, that somebody--Reid, Obama, or Biden--would side with him instead of with Hillary's corrupt and cruel political edifice. I'm not sure how somebody who spent so much time in DC could make that mistake. Having made the mistake, and obviously not having planned for the crushing pressure people like Hillary Clinton can apply to those who oppose them, he ended up basically on her leash. The sight of him campaigning around the country for her is supposed to demoralize the hell out of us, divide us, rip our hearts out.
Hillary Clinton works basically like dementors and ringwraiths do. It's a good rule to remember that.
So I don't actually agree with the specifics of what you say. I don't think anybody's making cruel attacks on Hillary or Bernie. Have people made unfounded attacks? I would say no, although some of the attacks are better-founded than others.
But I do agree with your general point: if we don't have something positive to do, we will continue to dissect the toxic nature of establishment politics, and eventually, that toxicity will choke us on our own despair.
The problem here is not, IMO, whether we're being mean or unfair to public figures. It's that we need to create something positive for ourselves.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I disagree.
It is time for me to leave discussion for the pleasure of music.
Look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Try to make sense of what you see, and wonder about what makes the universe exist. Be curious. Stephen Hawking
Thank you hawkingfan!
One of my favorite Jim Reeves songs.
I no longer believe in the religion of progress
Agreed, with one caveat
I don't look at this as a "mistake", I look at it as a "miscalculation", insofar as Sanders probably thought "Surely, if this corrupt bullying and blatant vote rigging is brought to light, that someone HAS TO DO SOMETHING"....and to me, that's not a far-fetched notion, mostly because no one has tried it to this extent in the last 30 yrears....
Well, no, they don't. And that's why I have forgiven his mis-calculation. He may have lost, but he also won, and sadly, so did we. He ripped the lid off this corrupt crap and showed us all exactly how bad it is. And it's BAD.
Now, I don't know about you, but it's fine by me to know what we're up against. At this point, I believe we're all fairly fucked, but I'd rather know that going in. YMMV, though, of course
I'm not really particularly mad at Bernie. :-)
From my point of view, it's like watching a really great warrior from your side get taken captive. Depressing, but I'm not *mad* at him.
It's not really that I haven't forgiven his miscalculation--it's that I'd never have made it. And I expect him to be, if anything,smarter AND more worldly-wise than I am (having spent all that time working on the Hill). I guess I'm really more surprised than anything. It's a little like what I felt about Kerry--these guys seem to not understand what looks very clear from the vantage point of far, far below.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfR9iY5y94s]
The Clinton folks, like the Bush folks, are horrible, corrupt bullies. They've got most, if not all, of DC, either bought off or running scared. I think Reid once had some good points, but they were long ago bullied out of him, back during the Bush administration, and after the rotten stuff that happened in NV--twice--it's obvious that he's now completely in the bag for Hillary. Obama obviously doesn't like Hillary's PNAC extremism--because it's fucking stupid world-destroying shit--but he's not gonna make one move against her for principle.
As for knowing what we're up against--that's fine by me, but I just don't know why Bernie didn't know it sooner. There are moves he could have made had he understood what was likely to happen. Would have been nice if those moves had been made. Ah, well.
As for the rest of us, the up side is we can do what we want to without worrying about the system, because the system is clearly and totally rigged against us:
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjPau5QYtYs]
or perhaps this is more apt:
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuN6gs0AJls&index=8&list=PLL0OP20vQGAEdU...
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I agree, but
I'll get back with you on my feelings about Bernie after tonight's watch party.
I would respectfully disagree with your top priority...
Namely, "fighting Her Drumph."
I would suggest that the principal issue is - mentioned somewhat blithely by you - election fraud.
For if it is real - and there are likely few here that doubt it - then our democracy has truly died.
It goes to the point that Ed M. made some days ago: why vote? Why show participation in a process that is prima-facea corrupted and meaningless?
Voting for or against Her Drumph or Her Heinous doesn't really matter, does it? The system has already decided which Potemkin candidate (the clown or the criminal) is going to win.
The real challenge for progressives is what to do now that we have lost our democracy?
My complaints about Senator Sanders are more along the lines of why did he stop in the face of this corruption.
The only thing I can conclude, is what you have concluded, that his family was threatened.
Three months ago I would have never, ever guessed that our political system had collapsed to the point of a nationally recognized U.S. political figure would be forced to withdraw their candidacy, and be subsequently silenced, by fraud and threats of physical violence to themselves and their kin. But I am forced to conclude that this has happened.
And so, we have to face the fact that the voting is just a placating charade, and we no longer have control of the strings of power in our government. That was well known before, that lawmakers and administrators are only responsive to the Oligarchy, but now it is apparent that we can't even chose representatives that will further expose this fact.
I guess I cannot blame Sen. Sanders. I think he would have sacrificed himself - but apparently his grandkids were his Achilles heel. I cannot blame him. He said, 'they were the joy of his life.'
We are indeed in deep yogurt at this point.
The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
Well said.
The more I think about these two candidates and the fact that voting third party won't matter because it's rigged for her heinous no matter what, I am leaning toward not participating in their charade. Still a few months to go. We'll see what fleshes out.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
TPTB *WANT* people not to vote
People who don't vote, don't matter and can be safely ignored, mistreated, abused, whatever.
People who don't vote for their puppet candidates are a threat and do matter - which probably explains the intensity of the attacks on Jill Stein and the Greens. (Jury's out on whether the Libertarians are a "third puppet force" or still in "safe to ignore" territory.)
Keep this in mind when you decide what you will do.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Thank you
For saying this. We are hearing the same things we heard about Bernie when he first ran that we are hearing about the Green Party. It can't happen. Well, you know what? I call bullshit. I think the more people who do not vote for the 2 puppet candidates and VOTE INSTEAD for another party, one whose platform is basically "people, planet, and peace over profit" is a helluva statement to TPTB.
So, why negate our voice?
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
I'm hearing cognitive dissonance...
If the vote tallies can be rigged, why do you have any confidence that the reported results will be anything other than what TPTB want? On the other hand, if only (for example) 10% of the public shows up at the polls (as a form of protest) that is a fact that is much harder to rig - though I'm sure through collusion with the MSM, it will be tried.
The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
No confidence, but if you think voting doesn't matter, then they
don't have to rig it, they'll win because you won't be there. Make them commit massive election fraud. Vote Green.
We saw how voter apathy worked in 2014. They did exactly the same this year as they did then. Protest ignored.
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Exactly
Make them commit massive voter fraud and give us another trail to record. Giving up just makes no sense.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
They've already committed massive voter fraud, with a trail...
And…? Here we are. How many more experiments have to be performed. If you vote, you are tacitly acknowledging the competency of the system. I do not acknowledge that any longer.
Not voting is not giving up. What it is is not giving in.
Not voting is not what they want. Not voting is a danger to them, because it is overt recognition that the system is terminally broken.
The spirit of party serves to enfeeble the Public Administration,
agitates with Jealousies and false alarms, and opens the door to corruption,
which finds access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.
George Washington
Yeah, I don't see that
Not voting has worked fine for them for years, and where has that gotten us?
If voting Green is such a waste of time, why is CTR spending so much time smearing Jill Stein?
Nope, they've done quite well with our "protest" no confidence vote for years now. I say lets do something different. Remember when we voted Green in 2000? They even had to bring SCOTUS in to help them. Let's see what we make them do this time.
I'd rather force their hand for all the world to see then continue the way we've been going with low voter turnouts buried in the lead of some newspaper nobody fucking reads anymore.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
If both answers to the question lead you nowhere
(or nowhere much), rephrase the question.
Asking the question "Voting or not voting?" in regard to fixing American politics is like asking the question "Roast beef or turkey sandwich?" in relation to post-lunch chess game.
I don't understand why people think the issue is whether or not people vote.
We've seen both huge turnouts and infinitesmal turnouts in the last ten years, and neither have availed us.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I'm not suggesting
That's the ONLY thing we do. I'm part of an organization here in California that is fighting fracking. I'm also working with another organization to stop the TPP. But when November comes I am not advocating for people to stay home and not vote. I am advocating for them to vote Green.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
We should vote 3rd party to try and destabilize
the two-party system. Sure. But we're not going to gain political power in DC through voting. That's clear.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I assume you mean building stronger
Connections on the local level?
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Well, yes, certainly.
If we're opposing the Clinton/Bush power structure, we need a much stronger web of relationships and connections than we've got now. We need communities. We need relationships built on trust. We need a reliable communications structure, and we need backup plans for what to do when they take down one piece of what we build--once we build it, that is.
People seem inclined to use the Green Party's infrastructure, because it's already there. Not really sure that's the best idea, but from my point of view--and people are likely gonna roast me for saying this--the best idea has already gone downriver, because Senator Sanders and his team didn't bother setting nets back when they could have (back when the establishment still underestimated him and he could get things done). Some preparation and forethought and we'd already have the beginnings of a movement, gearing itself up for the next stage.
It was absolutely clear that the movement rising around Sanders was ready to become its own political party, at the very least at the level of organization and independence that the Tea Party had. Understanding that his own political independence would likely not survive an encounter with the Clinton crime machine, Sanders needed to set up people to pass the work off to, people who had credibility with his rank and file--and their work needed not to be "let's elect a lot of progressive Democrats so we can convince Democratic party leadership that progressivism is a good idea and then they'll give us a seat at the table and we can move the party left etc etc etc" which, after 2008, anybody should know is a load of shit. Their work needed to be building a civic, social, and political infrastructure, a vehicle that the disenfranchised could use to create changes (starting in their own communities); a vehicle that needed to be absolutely independent of both major parties.
But they didn't do that, for whatever reason, and whatever it is they're doing, it won't prosper; I say this because it's already been tried, and tried from a position of considerably more power than we have now. If Dean's effort ultimately failed, and ended with him back in the veal pen, and with us holding considerably less political power now than we did in 2007--and I'd argue that it did--there's no way in 2016 that the exact same strategy is going to produce political change. Or policy change. Or any change.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Well I'm not going to roast you because I think this is a
thoughtful response. I see no reason not to vote Green in November. I think Clinton has the right wing sewn up so Trump will end up with some tiny number. That leaves the left wing for Jill. Maybe enough for a win in my irrational hopes and dreams, but if not maybe a ginormous protest vote so Her Heinous doesn't get her mandate.
FWIW, there was finally a big section of my parents' newspaper devoted to Jill and Gary. They thought Jill both looked and sounded the most Presidential of any of the four candidates. So she really can make inroads with the moderates. Per my parents, she just needs publicity to get better known.
But of course it will be a miracle if all this is enough this year. It took Bernie more than a few months to get to where the majority would vote for him. I do want to consider what to do next. And I think you're right, those next steps are way more important than whether or not we decide to vote Green as a protest or vote not at all as a protest.
It is too bad that Bernie wasn't more organized at an earlier point. Maybe we can get better organized by 2018 or 2020. I don't have a real strong opinion about starting from scratch versus going Green either. It depends on whether there are too many stuck in the mud in the Green party to make it worth fighting for their infrastructure.
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thank you for not roasting me--and for your own
thoughtful response! Like you, I'm voting Jill in November.
This baffles me:
It is too bad that Bernie wasn't more organized at an earlier point.
Because I thought, all along, that Bernie's main goal was to start a movement. Obviously, he was going to do everything in his power to win the Presidency, because to run for President and not give it your all is to betray your supporters. But I thought he was actually a bit surprised by how well he did. When he decided to run, he reportedly did it to "start a conversation," if I'm remembering correctly the story Jane Sanders told.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
This election specifically,
voting third party could be influential, because a substantial proportion of voters are quite likely to do just that. Probably not enough for either Stein or Johnson to win, but enough to do two things: Firstly to put the fear of God into both the D and R establishments, and secondly to strengthen and encourage future third-Party organizing.
For election reform to happen, for the power of the US duopoly to be challenged, a large number of people need to to want that to happen. This election could possibly signal the beginning of that desire taking a formal shape.
native
A marked increase in Green votes would say a lot.
It will not cause Stein to be President, but it will say a lot. Please reconsider. Thank you.
We should clarify, when we're talking about voting--
what we expect the vote to do. What are we trying to achieve?
Too often "voting" is held up as some kind of essential good that creates Good Democracy and Good Civilizations and Good Lives for People, just by its very existence. Because doing the Good Act of Good Voting makes us Good People and Good Citizens and then we get rewarded with the Good Government We Deserve.
I agree with you that getting Stein above 5% would be an actual Good Thing that could be created by Good Voting--if none of the PTB consider it worth stopping with their fraud. It's likely they wouldn't bother stopping it while Stein is still, comparatively, small potatoes. So I agree with you, and I'm gonna vote Stein.
But if we're trying to save the country or get good government or good democracy or a good life for our people, the question "Vote? or Not?" is particularly unhelpful--since obviously what's required to change things is far, far more than voting. Or running candidates for office. Or any of the standard DFA exercise regime.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
"Democracy" is a word that makes people feel good and so we love
to use it and politicians love to use it even more. However, a right to vote is suffrage, not democracy. A right to vote on every issue makes a government a democracy. A right to vote for people who, in theory, represent you makes a government a Republic. We have much more individual suffrage in this country now than in 1789, when only about 6% of the population had a right to vote for Congressional representatives and only legislatures could vote for Senators. However, the form of government is still the same as in 1789, namely, a Republic. We even vote for Senators now, but the popular vote still does not elect Presidents. Frankly, if the only way my vote may actually make a difference in this election is if I vote for Hillary or Donald, be my guest. Defraud me out of my right to vote. Neither of them is going to be in the same universe as representing me.
While Republicans were the ones complaining about ACORN, alleging voter registration fraud, Democrats have complained about election fraud. Democratic and Republican politicians zoomed so fast to kill ACORN--under Obama, ironically--that a constitutional challenge was mounted in court because they only crossed out ACORN"s name in the bill, rather than having it re-typed to avoid claims of attaint.
Democratic politicians, however, have done precious little to remedy the election fraud about which they geschrei, especially after Presidential elections. For purposes of this post, I am willing to say that the 2000 election was stolen from Gore, and the 2004 election was stolen from Kerry.
Waxman held hearings that proved how easily elections can be rigged. And, please, they can be rigged even without voting machines, Even the count on a caucus vote can be rigged. Soooo, one of the first things I would have expected to be ready for Obama's signature in 2009 or 2010 would have been a clean elections bill. As far as I know, though, no Democrat in Congress or in state government has ever tried to pass a clean elections bill. Why do you suppose that is?
Things that make you go hmmm.
What you say is so true - one would think that the Party which appeared to be the victim of election fraud would have had some interest in addressing the issue when they came into power in a wave election, but . . . . crickets. And still, crickets.
It would be ironic if Donald Trump glommed onto this a a very valid campaign issue since he's so afraid of stolen elections, although like most people, he's focused on the straw man of voter fraud as opposed to election fraud.
" “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR "
They weren't interested in 2000.
Not one white Democrat came down from DC to FL. Not even our own senator. And speaking of the Senate, not one Senator was willing to stand with the CBC. Not even Paul Wellstone, whom I deeply respect.
Which is why I left the Democratic party the first time, and became a Green.
Howard Dean and DFA brought me back. In retrospect, that was a mistake.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Howard Dean. Uber centrist. Born with a silver spoon in
his mouth. A rating from the NRA while Governor of Vermont. Rumored to have hated Sanders.
Trump alleged election fraud against Sanders during the
Democratic primary. He also called super delegates dirty or some other epithet.
See? He's not all bad.
Bernie is still speaking out on
issues just as he did during the primary. He did say that he would not go 3rd party should he lose the primary. He has chosen not to break his word even though Clinton et. al have lied, cheated and stolen.
I agree that cheap shots degrade the dialogue. I can't follow Bernie in supporting Clinton, but he still supports the little guy on the issues. There he will not be co-opted. Obama has failed on the issues. I won't make excuses for him, but name calling is counterproductive.
"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"
Bernie said he would not run as a spoiler.
A spoiler is not merely someone who does not run as either a Democrat or a Republican. It's someone who runs outside those two parties, knowing he or she has no chance at all of winning. I see nothing wrong with anyone who qualifies under federal and state law running, even if he or she has no chance of winning. I wish more people would do that. However, Bernie said that he would not run as a spoiler. I don't know if he ever expressly ruled out a run outside the Democratic Party if he had a chance of winning. If he did, I am unaware of it.
However, even if he said that he would not run as the candidate of a newer party, that is very different from saying he was going to campaign for Hillary and advocate only working within the Democratic Party to achieve his "revolution."
He lost the battle
Gained some ground but not as much as he hoped. He cut his losses and is now attempting a different tactic. His colleges say he is relentless. He only ran to get his ideas out into the mainstream. He knew he was a terrific long shot to start with. He said from the beginning he would back the winner of the primary and this is what he has done.
The war is ongoing and who will win is still up in the air.
What Shiz said. To which I add:
Bernie is rooting for the Dems.
I don't.
He no longer speaks to me or for me.
He is advocating at this time for the same oligarchy he railed against.
Go Stein!
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
I have also encountered nastiness
On occasion I have dared to introduce facts and logic in a comment when a c99 post set off my bullshit detector, and when the personal attacks come back at me I know my comment forced them to admit to themselves that what they wrote was ridiculous. Otherwise they could offer a logical response instead of just hurling insults. So I never take it personally. How could I? Nobody on this site knows me except from reading a paragraph I write once in a while.
"We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty."
Could you please be more specific?
Because my bullshit detector is going off *right now*.
I miss Colorado.
Some threads have turned into heated arguments
sometimes to the point where JtC or gulfgal has had to step in and tell everyone to cool it. I wouldn't say that's necessarily "nastiness" so much as getting all hot under the collar and venting in public. (Then again, one or two people don't seem to know the difference....)
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Yeah, I've seen this a few times myself,
but I do think most c99p members know to disregard such threads.
I know I do. In those matters, I usually defer to the Admin, unless they completely lose touch with reality, like kos.
Truly, I have not seen a lot of "nastiness" enough to make it noteworthy on c99p. TOP had a ton of that shit, but people are pretty sweet and chill over here.
Just my 2 cents.
I miss Colorado.
Ditto. I have had some heated discussions, but we've stuck
to the facts or lack thereof and are still civil to each other in general. If I see someone get nasty with personal attacks, I drop a line to the moderators.
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