To the Clintonistas...

I'm certain there are more than a few supporters of Hillary Clinton lurking here at Caucus99. I've no idea if some of you have tried to join this site and been declined, or whether you haven't deigned to engage at C99 yet. If it were up to me, I'd allow such memberships without hesitation and give you a chance to state your case without rancor. Surely you have a case to make... but I've yet to encounter anything beyond Brockian spin and boilerplate lists of Sec. Clinton's "accomplishments." The only argument that makes any sense to me at all is the oft-repeated one of "electability." We'll return to that in a moment.

In particular, I'd appreciate answers to a couple of questions. You consider descriptions of Clinton as a "warmonger" to be nasty, baseless slams. With that in mind, please point out instances where Hillary Clinton has actively opposed the use of American military force, other than her long-ago opposition to our Vietnam adventure. I can't help but wonder what the idealistic Hillary who passionately worked to stop that awful war would think about today's all-grown-up version who vacations with Henry Kissinger and describes Dr. K as a "mentor and friend."

Another quick question, closer to home. What are we to think of Clinton's lucrative speeches before Goldman Sachs and other power brokers of Wall St. and the mega-banks? What could she possibly have said, no matter how brilliant, articulate and insightful, to justify such enormous payments? What did her hard-nosed sponsors think they were getting for their money? Is it really plausible to suggest that they didn't think they were paying for access and a sympathetic ear, from a woman who hoped to be President? Yes, like everyone, Hillary Clinton is fully-entitled to be paid for her labor, but if a Republican gave these same speeches, to these same audiences, for the same remuneration, would you accept their wide-eyed demurral that there was no quid pro quo involved at all?

Maybe none of this matters, if Hillary Clinton truly does offer America the best chance of preventing the nightmare of President Trump or President Cruz. Does it though? That's not what the polls say. Yes, I know, polling this far out from an election has only limited predictive value. It has the enormous advantage though of actually existing. Perhaps the data showing Clinton barely beating Trump and managing to lose to Cruz is unreliable... but from where I sit, the counter-argument is weaker still, nothing much more than a hunch. I'd prefer not to bet our future on a hunch.

Despite the canards often thrown our way, apparently in the hope that something, anything, will stick, progressive supporters of Bernie Sanders aren't secretly hoping for a victory by Trump. We live in the real world though, where we understand all-too-well that America really may wake up one November morning to the reality of President-elect Trump. A final question to the Clintonistas: Do you understand at all just how deeply divisive and unpopular your candidate truly is? Perhaps she could squeak out a victory against Donald Trump... but maybe not. Has the reality that Clinton might very well lose penetrated your cotton-candy lalalala all-is-rosy filters at all?

Two riders are approaching, and the hour is indeed getting late.

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Comments

detroitmechworks's picture

with the word "hate" in them, followed by the sexist and racist canards.

And a lot of talk about realism and the undeniable fact that your questions are slanted. Then immediately deflect to attacks on Sander's record.

But then, that's just the standard boilerplate, which would be immediately flagged to oblivion (Oh wait we don't do that) IGNORED because we've heard it all before.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

Blasphemy101's picture

Love the video. I quote that religiously with my friends in real life.

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War, War Never Changes - Fallout Series

and whether they've been declined from participating here.

All opinions are welcome here, we are an open community and all voices are welcome as long as the discourse is civil. An echo chamber would be pretty damn boring, no? No one will be declined from registering here except spammers, they can go directly to hell, everyone else is welcome though.

I expect that if someone comes here with a chip on their shoulder that it will be met with civil push back from the community. And in the event that staff here does not notice dickish behavior don't hesitate to use the "Contact Us' link. This site has become impossible for one person to moderate all of the comments, so if someone is out of line, don't hesitate to let us know.

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as far as spammers are concerned. If a rock crusher shows up, I just might let them through, maybe. Heh!

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PhilJD's picture

More and better rockcrushers!

Heh.

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Hillary Clinton 2016: I'm a proud progmoderate!

what's the best way to get in touch with moderators if we want to report trolls/spammers?

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thanatokephaloides's picture

..... use the "Contact Us" link in the upper right corner of the c99p pages.

Smile

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"I say enough! If Israel wants to be the only superpower in the Middle East then they can put their own asses on the line and do it themselves. I want to continue to eat."
-- snoopydawg

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Missed it from her; glad you used it.

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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." --Jiddu Krishnamurti

Jazzenterprises's picture

It's something that was on my mind when I started thinking how nice it was to not have them here... then I realized I'm a free-thinking progressive who always welcomes differing points-of-view, to the benefit of expanding my own thought processes. Nevermind that I actually respect and consider quite a few of them friends. Amazing what the primaries can do...

When the dust settles, I have a feeling many of our Clinton supporting friends will be by here to see how we're doing, and to participate in vigorous progressive-liberal dogma, the way it should be. I for one will welcome them, but we have to be wary about the DBAD types who masquerade as honest-brokers, only to throw their shit around. Growing pains and all that I suppose.

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Progressive to the bone.

pop up, let us know by using the "Contact Us" function. There's mucho content to be moderated now, so if someone doesn't catch it right away give us a shout.

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Jazzenterprises's picture

n/t

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Progressive to the bone.

I come from a very different background than most so my viewpoint tends to be all over the map in the political relm. In the last few years I have noticed a distinct narrowing of minds at kos. If I disagreed with specific ideas and gave my opinion the fall out was akin to being attacked by a rabid skunk.

It makes thoughtful discussion very diffacult. I am one to respect another's opinions even if I don't agree. Thoughtfully discussing differences without judgment has often led me to question my own views and helped me understand the better.

I learned more here about several things reading posts and comments than I have at kos for very long time.

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"...akin to being attacked by a rabid skunk". For that description alone I wish I rec your comment more than once!

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I come from a very different background than most so my viewpoint tends to be all over the map in the political relm. In the last few years I have noticed a distinct narrowing of minds at kos. If I disagreed with specific ideas and gave my opinion the fall out was akin to being attacked by a rabid skunk.

It makes thoughtful discussion very diffacult. I am one to respect another's opinions even if I don't agree. Thoughtfully discussing differences without judgment has often led me to question my own views and helped me understand the better.

I learned more here about several things reading posts and comments than I have at kos for very long time.

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gulfgal98's picture

wanted this site to be open for intelligent discussion, especially concerning the critical issues facing us. We wanted our posters to behave with respect to each other even when we disagree. We have around for over one year and thus far, it has worked. JtC vets new signups simply to ensure that they are legitimate people and not spammers.

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"I don't want to run the empire, I want to bring it down!" ~ Dr. Cornel West

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

ericinsantarosa's picture

It astounds me me that Clinton supporters well shrug these questions off as if they don't matter, but they really really do. Denial of that is just willful ignorance.

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"If you're on fire, and running down the street, people will get out of your way." Davey- Cordovan Athabascan Native

...& willful amnesia.

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sensetolisten's picture

DailyKosMarkos3.jpg

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“I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was hell.”
― Harry Truman
MonetaryLeviathon's picture

I have thought about the very same thing. However willful ignorance as the explanation is far too simplistic in my humble opinion though sometimes it does seem exactly that. An accurate collection of their respective professions would likely answer a lot of the questions. Most people in manufacturing industries are very afraid for their jobs and those not lucky enough to have one of those better paying jobs are struggling to keep afloat in a low wage economy. Then there is a segment of the working population that have jobs in healthcare, insurance and the MIC that have had their jobs for literally ever, though some encroachment in those industries by globalism has made its inroads into those industries. Then there are government workers at the local city, state and federal level.... virtually untouched and unphased by outsourcing... they have a vested (literally and figuratively) in the status quo however many do not realize that as the working population falls more and more into low wage, the govt employees do not have the tax base to support their retirement dreams... Michigan pensions are current under assault, the politicians 'borrowed' a huge chunk from the federal pension fund for something a few years ago, various cities have declared bankruptcy. I know people in the private sector that have lost everything in their pensions... everything. Ignoring such things is not just willful ignorance, it is basically insane and evil behavior. Seems like it is a 'it won't happen to me' mindset which is completely irresponsible ... its coming as nothing has been fixed in this economy except the illusion that something somewhere was fixed.

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Hey, Phil! Nice post you have here! Smile

I wish the Clintonistats at Dkos would have answered your questions in good faith, but it just didn't happen on the GOS. Totally pisses me off, but that's part of why I left.

Anyhoo, they have been downrating our group and individual members of Kossacks_for_Sanders on Reddit. A couple of people missed a step in the maturation process.

Have a good day, Philly! Glad we are both here. Wink

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I miss Colorado.

detroitmechworks's picture

You'll find Clinton with her thumb pressed firmly on the scale.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

PhilJD's picture

Joined me as a happy lurker? Cold turkey (other than a single inadvertent tip), two weeks as of Saturday, and counting.

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Hillary Clinton 2016: I'm a proud progmoderate!

I really don't have a want or need to be on Dkos anymore. Between this and Reddit, I think I'm good. kos made his stupidass decision and I'm A-OK with leaving, although I'm sure it will be hard sometimes.

It helps a lot, having all y'all here. Smile

Of course, though, I plan on lurking on Dkos, because how can I not?!

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I miss Colorado.

I miss DK before That Day.

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Emmet

Little Shiz is in Colorado so, naturally, I miss her. But I also miss the people and the environment; Wisconsin is way too provincial for me.

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I miss Colorado.

Ken in MN's picture

...I'm not afraid to debate them anytime, anywhere...

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I want my two dollars!

Unabashed Liberal's picture

prescriptions (for a change). My frustration is that most of the so-called discussions amount to little more than tossing out campaign 'talking points!' Had to give up on commenting there some time ago, for just that reason.

Thankfully, here, such discourse is still possible. Not to mention, encouraged!

Pleasantry

Mollie
elinkarlsson@WordPress


"I think dogs are the most amazing creatures; they give unconditional love. For me they are the role model for being alive."
----Gilda Radner, Comedienne

Thumbnail of 'Lily' for Signature Line.png

National Mill Dog Rescue

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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

Big Al's picture

personally I prefer war criminal because more than just not opposing any wars, she has actively engaged in them, particularly in Libya and Syria as SOS. I would ask Clinton supporters how they can excuse that, ignore that, even support that. Of course, very few would even admit to her actively engaging in war with Syria and Libya, the propaganda regarding those wars has been so effective that even many Sanders supporters still don't know the truth about what's happened in those countries. We won't hear the truth from the MSM except in bits and pieces that have to be pieced together to make sense of the situation. But it's no different from Obama who still maintains an approval rating from Democrats in the high 70's even though he has been the CINC over those illegal wars and the continued Bush wars against Afghanistan, Iraq and the War OF Terror. And now Obama has extended the sanctions against Venezuela because that country represents a threat to this country. Ya right, a threat to those controlling this country stealing their oil.

From what I can tell, and Kos certainly verified this, the mainstream democrats are not worried about some Sanders supporters not voting for Clinton, they're actively calling for the door to not hit them on the way out. In fact, they're doing it with glee. Of course they've got their little minds covered in that if Clinton loses, it of course will be because of Sanders supporters, not them.

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detroitmechworks's picture

As a sufferer of severe PTSD and depression resulting from my combat action, I REALLY want to know.

Does the money make the demons go away?

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

JayRaye's picture

More like ants than humans to them.

For all her protestations of concern for us, Hillary is actually right at home yucking it up with the likes of Henry Kissinger and Donald Trump.

She would actually rather see either of them as President than someone who would actually stand up for us peons, like, say, Bernie Sanders.

I'm very sorry to hear about your PTSD, DMW, and hope being here with us is of some help to you.

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Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons

detroitmechworks's picture

Don't use it every day, just when I start snapping at my kids, getting nervous, anxious, etc. Low dose, just to take off the edge, but it helps a LOT.

Still trying to get out in public more, especially considering how wonderful Portland is.

Thanks though. I try not to let it define who I am, and am TRYING to move forward with my life. Some days are better than others, and the disability pension helps as well. (Allows me to actually take care of my kids and write, which helps. Reason I'm TRYING to Diary Daily.)

Speaking of which, I was just thinking we might want to set up some C99 meetups, since I see a lot of folks from the PNW here...

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

cardboardurinal's picture

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shaharazade's picture

once said it's worth it to kill women, children, men, bomb villages, blow up weddings, torture and commit unspeakable crimes against humanity while setting the world on fire for profit and domination. . 'We came, we saw, he died...' These people are not just sociopath's their full blown psycho killers, qu'est que c'est. Hillary the Hun and the gangster cohorts she represents are a power mad global scourge on humanity and the planet we live on. The fact that she and Trump are likely to be our choice to ratify with our vote is a sick farce. She is the personification of Matt Taibbi's 'great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money.' If the Clintonites show up here I think their heads would explode as they would not be armed and protected by the goon squads and their foaming at the mouth top dog brain washer. Authoritarian followers who only know double think can't handle free thought. I never should have peeked at dkos this morning it did a number on my brain. I certainly hope they stay on their rat infested ship and don't pose as innocent women and children to get on this lifeboat.

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JayRaye's picture

the battle for President between Hillary and Trump is just laughable.

All the while they hang out together socially and yuck it up together at gala events.

We are being played big time.

Nope, I will not vote for either of them, no way.

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Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons

detroitmechworks's picture

I have. About 15 years ago, I took temp work at Asilomar Conference Center in Monterey, CA, working a few of those.

Everybody has the same fake laughs, the same damn suits/dresses, and the occasionally people migrate over to talk to "The Help". Lost track of how many people just wanted to talk about wine with me, when I didn't drink the stuff. I found the fastest way to make a good impression and get a good tip was to just parrot whatever the last guy had said.

Which I think says a LOT about those people.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

JayRaye's picture

right-wing BS anymore. Sad because I really do like genealogy and revolutionary war history and they were a great resource for that.

I also like hanging out with real oldsters where being in your 60s is considered young.

Pitched a fit about some anti-gay remarks and never went back and let my membership lapse.

There was one funny conversation where they were talking about their latest luxury cruise and they asked me where I went on vacation and I said camping at a State Park and the whole table went silent.

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Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons

Ken in MN's picture

...and not capable of feeling empathy. Low-functioning sociopaths descend to become petty and violent criminals. High-functioning sociopaths rise to the top of their chosen field in Finance, Business Administration, Politics and Law. No amount of money or power will ever assuage them, just like no amount of punishment or incarceration will deter the low-functioning sociopaths...

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I want my two dollars!

darkmatter's picture

Think of the famous obedience to authority experiment by Stanley Milgram. Key to that experiment was that the "subjects" who were getting electrocuted (or so it seemed) were in an adjacent room, heard but not seen.

In other words, distance makes amorality easier. As Blake put it:

For Mercy has a human heart
And Pity a human face
And Love the human form Divine
And Peace the human dress.

In other words, it is much harder to be monstrously indifferent or amoral to others when they are right in front of you as full, actual human beings. The system we have right now creates thousands of Flint, Michigans, but most of them are ignored or left for the back pages of the paper.

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gulfgal98's picture

The single best moment for me at our local weekly Peace vigil was the day when a vet and his wife stopped and talked to us. He had suffered PTSD and at first had a hard time opening up to us about his three tours in Afghanistan and one tour in Iraq. Iraq deeply affected him and as he spoke, we just listened. At the time, I thought that if every Congress critter and national politician would just listen to him, you, and others, perhaps they would rethink their war mongering.

He and his wife had a dog with them. She was a rescue dog, but he said that he thought they were saving her. Instead, she saved his life. When they left, my friend, Don, said it was the most moving day for him in his twelve years of Peace vigils. I was crying.

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"I don't want to run the empire, I want to bring it down!" ~ Dr. Cornel West

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Martha Pearce-Smith's picture

Second, they sleep just fine because they don't really SEE what their actions cause... they don't see the broken bodies or hear the cries of the children...they are in their little bubbles sipping on fine wine and perusing their balance sheets.

If they had to get dirty...to actually smell the blood of their foe, if our leaders had to, like kings of old, actually LEAD their troops into battle... things just might be a little different.

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Please help the Resilience Resource Library grow by adding your links.

First Nations News

detroitmechworks's picture

Or so I thought at the time.

You can't save something beyond saving. All you can do is salvage the best parts. Hard lesson to learn.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

sensetolisten's picture

How do these people sleep...
with the blood on their hands?

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“I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was hell.”
― Harry Truman
MonetaryLeviathon's picture

Because they don't have to do the dirty work except that of betrayal of the people they are fooling

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during the whole Libya thing. I got called unpatriotic and anti-American for not supporting the Libya bombing at Dkos.

That was a particularly ugly moment there.

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detroitmechworks's picture

And Syria as well. D's who never saw a war they didn't like if it was started by a person with the right letter designation.

Gross, and lots of stupid talk about "Realism". Killing people and breaking stuff never solves the worlds problems. You only kill people and break stuff to stop other people from killing people and breaking stuff.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

lotlizard's picture

Remember Libya

I still get enraged about Libya. Probably not as enraged as actual Libyans who have a bit more reason to be enraged than I do, but I still get really pissed off about it. All of the humanitarian interventionist liberals informed me that we had to bomb the shit out of the country in order to save the poor people of Libya from the tyranny of the guy we supported 10 days ago, and that not wanting to bomb the shit out of them made me a bad person. Predictably, everything went to hell in Libya, and humanitarian concerns magically disappeared as well. Where are the impassioned pleas for aid? They seem to be missing from the blogs and newspaper columns. It's not about me, of course, but honestly there are people I will never talk to again because of the bullshit condescension I got about the need to bomb the shit out of Libya. Assholes.

Amen.

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enhydra lutris's picture

Daily Kos, it is a sickness that many in the US have contracted.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Their members chose Bernie over her. She thinks it is because of her position on Afghanistan and other hawkish positions and she is partly correct but what is really rich is that Moveon.org was formed to SAVE Bill's ass from impeachment and removal. I remember it well. I now think that was a mistake. He lied under oath and should have been removed from office. His removal would have given us Al Gore. It is likely that some of the seriously damaging Wall Street legislation would never have passed. Move on.org members know Bill and Hillary well and they know they are not authentic and not to be trusted. She attacked them behind closed doors....she doesn't have the guts to attack them in public. They would destroy her and she knows it.

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Unabashed Liberal's picture

Cruz will either get the nomination by taking more delegates, or the RNC will nominate fiscal austerian John Kasich at a 'brokered convention.'

BTW, Kasich has been endorsed by 30 newspaper editorial boards.

Too much PAC money (negative ads) is being thrown at Trump for him to prevail as the nominee, IMO. The internals of the last voting returns show that Cruz is on the rise.

I 'fear' Cruz as much as 'the Donald.' He would completely undo the federal tax code--including nullifying or doing away with the payroll tax. This would clearly disassociate Social Security benefits from earnings.

He will do away with estate taxes, federal incomes taxes (I believe), and replace it with a VAT tax (which he denies is one, but experts say 'is').

But, the worst candidate regarding dismantling the Social Safety net (hands down) is Ohio's John Kasich.

Kasich is proposing to index the COLA to 'prices,' instead of wages. Including the Social Security PIA, which determines your base monthly benefit!

That is 'why' the Repub Establishment is trying to move heaven and earth, to draft him.

Whew!

Hey, have a good one!

Mollie
elinkarlsson@WordPress


"I think dogs are the most amazing creatures; they give unconditional love. For me they are the role model for being alive."
----Gilda Radner, Comedienne

Thumbnail of 'Lily' for Signature Line.png

National Mill Dog Rescue

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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

PhilJD's picture

is the worst of all.

If in some surreal nightmare I absolutely HAD to choose between Trump and Cruz or the kitten gets it, that really would be a very easy choice. Cruz is terrifying, the most dangerous sort of true believer, but in the end, Trump's only core belief is spelled T-R-U-M-P. Cruz would tack right and right and then right some more, but I suspect that Trump might edge ever so slightly towards the center, if to his own surprise he woke up one morning as President. Lord knows I desperately hope we never find out, but with Clinton as the Democratic nominee, I think we really might.

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Hillary Clinton 2016: I'm a proud progmoderate!

detroitmechworks's picture

or the guy standing next to him, telling us to do what he says, because he'll have to give us what we want later, IF we give in now?

I don't fear the Republicans as much as I fear the Democratic Party who will sit calmly by as they have for the last 16 years and allow the Rethugs to smash us in the face with their policies.

Video linked for the Irony in "Professional Party People"... Smile

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

gulfgal98's picture

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"I don't want to run the empire, I want to bring it down!" ~ Dr. Cornel West

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Trump is Nero.
Cruz is Caligula

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Solidarity

Maybe it's just a living nightmare, but when I saw Mittens stepping in, I swear the image which flashed before my mind was Mittens/Fiorina.
It was one of those Sunday am talkers, usually have on while I read the Sunday papers, and he was praising Fiorina - which got my attention.
It's such a conundrum the Republicans have created for themselves: they hate Cruz, Rubio is so shallow, Trump isn't a possibility for any of them, Kasich fades after Ohio.
Honestly think Mitt is a possibility. Thought he would've run if Jeb! hadn't kept him out, and corned the money so quickly.
Can't get rid of the image in my mind, what a nightmare, except I was, am, awake.

Also, think any one of them would defeat Clinton.
I'm in MA, and will write in Bernie Sanders.

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MonetaryLeviathon's picture

doesn't want Trump in office because he's not a globalist... the rest of their 'lineup' of confidence men are all globalists.... just like Hillary.

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markets.PNG

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polkageist's picture

One has to give financial people credit for keeping their eye on the ball: money is all that is important. If one dispassionately looks at the Dem and Rep candidates Hillary is the only truly "market friendly" one of the bunch. Trump is a loose cannon; Cruz is a sociopathic theocrat; Kasich is acceptable but secretly crazy; Bernie is the enemy; but Hillary has a track record second only to Bill. Markets like greedy politicians who don't rock the boat.

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-Greed is not a virtue.
-Socialism: the radical idea of sharing.
-Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
John F. Kennedy, In a speech at the White House, 1962

MonetaryLeviathon's picture

only non globalists are Trump and Sanders ... does anyone pay close attention to this shit show? cruz worked on the north american union under the bush administration and his wife works at goldman sachs and bona fide CFR member, Kasich is on the surface moderate but crazier than cruz if that is possible and will do whatever the money people tell him to ... like Hillary would and Obama has done. This country is so f'g up,

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PhilJD's picture

Anyone who remembers me from that other site knows I've been very critical of Pres. Obama's use of military force, particularly his escalation of the horrific drone war. That view hasn't changed at all, but the prospect of Pres. Clinton II shows just how much worse things still can get. Barack Obama drank too deeply of the military koolade for sure, but Hillary Clinton chugged a gallon jug of War-ade in two seconds flat and angrily demanded a refill.

I truly fear the future if she's elected. I'm grateful really that I'm getting older and my wife and I don't have kids to inherit the wreckage.

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Hillary Clinton 2016: I'm a proud progmoderate!

Haikukitty's picture

I honestly don't know how people with kids take a anxiety about the future. At least I've lived half my life and have no one after me to worry about.

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(would have had to put a shrink on retainer at birth for them), but I do have great-nieces and great-nephews I worry about. The great-nephews are all under the age of 5 so I worry about the sort of world in which they'll be growing up; the great-nieces are all high-school or college age so I'm hoping that they'll be part of changing this world for the better.

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My kid is in the Army. You bet I worry.

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NWIA's picture

What I honestly cannot fully comprehend are the Clinton supporters who are friends of mine. Good, reliable liberals who are firebrands on topics ranging from abortion, LGBT issues, gun control, military spending, entitlements, etc. Yet...when faced with a candidate who is dedicated to only some of those issues, while obviously holding positions on trade, foreign relations, macroeconomics, energy, and other parts of our regulatory structure, they not only shrug, but they defiantly support her. In part it's age that defines them (my boomer friends...I'm Gen X). In part it is single Gen X women. (At my NW IA caucus location, my wife and I were joined by other bernie supporters who brought their kids. Only one Family for Hillary showed up.) But it is too simplistic to state that older and female voters stick with Hillary, no matter what.

As much as anything it still seems a matter of sticking with what is better known, regardless of the ample opportunities to do sect Bernie as a candidate. I understand this. I'm stubborn and hate giving up preconceptions as much as anyone. But when I see total bullshit like the Washington Post's coverage of last night's debate, I know that any stubbornness I might have had were I a Hillary supporter would have shrunk under the weight of the MSM's overreactions and misinterpretations. Folks who were once upon a time as skeptical as I am about what I encounter through the media suddenly have sold out as easily as their candidate of choice.

I've never been this passionate about a pol. It hurts watching good liberals treat the only decent human to run for president since before I was eligible to vote as just another object for their snark. And they're winning. And they're satisfied. With so little when so much is possible. Positive thoughts anyone?

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Jazzenterprises's picture

it's depressing as hell, especially after spending 8 years agreeing on the majority of issues, it leaves me wondering how committed they really were... again depressing.

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Progressive to the bone.

My five siblings and I are in our 70s and 60s. All Bernie supporters with the exception of my fatheaded youngest brother, who showed alarming tendencies of leaning Hillary. I sent him a link to the CNN article about how she and Bill had made $150 million plus in speeches since 2001 (?). He was astonished; he didn't know anything about it (or the pay-to-play concerns about the Clinton Foundation). And he follows politics!

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Emmet

hester's picture

I feel you. I have the same issue only it's w my family (siblings) . I am an old woman w 2 millennial children both Bernie supporters. One of my kids lives in MA, so her Sanders vote counter acted the vote of my sister, who voted for HRC. What surprises me most is that one of my brothers, his wife and his millennial child, also in MA, ALSO voted for HRC. They don't like her at all, but my brother doesn't believe a socialist Jew (we are Jewish) can be elected. I was stunned to learn that my daughter's vote counteracted only one family member and the other 3 (maybe 5... if my sister's hubby and kid voted) voted for Hillary. I don't know what to say. We are long time liberals.. like forever.

And one of my other brothers sends me stuff about Bernie's trade policies he doesn't like. I'm disheartened beyond belief. Never in my 60+ years have I had such an opportunity to vote for such a candidate. And my so-called liberal relatives are in the tank for HRC. Stunning! And Depressing.

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Don't believe everything you think.

detroitmechworks's picture

Until the torture started.

Then they happily switched to Barack. Now they're with Hillary. I'm of the opinion that they never really changed their positions, just let the political parties move right around them.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

gulfgal98's picture

The same here in my family. My mother likes what Bernie says but believes he cannot win. She loves Jane. In laws are all Trump supporters. They would support a dead potted plant if it was a Rethug. Dash 1

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"I don't want to run the empire, I want to bring it down!" ~ Dr. Cornel West

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

I've never been this passionate about a pol. It hurts watching good liberals treat the only decent human to run for president since before I was eligible to vote as just another object for their snark. And they're winning. And they're satisfied. With so little when so much is possible. Positive thoughts anyone?

It's as if you inhabited my deepest thoughts, and expressed them much better than I could.
I feel such a deep sense of loss, for us and the world, for not winning this election for Bernie Sanders. Jane Sanders too. Think they are both the best two people we have seen in politics, and will ever see. Can't see anything positive, just makes me cry.

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I was watching MSNBC tonight as Joy Reid and Laurence O'Donnell grinned about how it didn't seem Michigan voters were hearing the truth about Bernie's auto bailout support (she had been listening to Michigan radio, and apparently Clinton's latest lie is all the talk). So I changed the channel and listened to CNN commentators rip Bernie for using the word ghetto. I was pretty much demoralized in about ten minutes. Bernie is apparently completely selfless, he campaigns for months and months and months and months - and does his job at the same time - and they light into him over lies he doesn't adequately refute, and a word he allegedly misused. Bernie a racist? A sexist? This is insane. I expect this kind of garbage from Fox News. That's why I don't watch it. But man. I haven't seen this many faux kitchen sinks thrown by people I thought had some decency in them since 2000, when Al Gore was made by the media into a "pathological liar."

Positive thoughts? Only one: until this election cycle, I had no idea as decent a human being as Bernie Sanders had ever been a successful politician. He is an inspiration.

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Twain Disciple

mawnjilla's picture

is insufferable. larry o'donnel has his moments at least, but msnbc is just shameless these days. I also saw that bit earlier. It is reprehensible how they smugly report on the local Detroit media narrative on the auto bailout sounding slanted against Bernie, not calling it out or anything, just presenting it as another expected obstacle diminishing his chances. A discouraging tidbit for the audience to sleep on, at the end of the episode, before they vote tomorrow. just foul. I plan on cancelling my cable subscription, and in the meantime I'm learning a lot about corporate propaganda techniques. It has always been bad, but I think the corporate media has become significantly less substantive very recently, pretty much across the board.

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bern baby bern disco inberno

Lady Libertine's picture

on GOS but Im gonna go find it. It just breaks my heart.

here it is, delphine posted this there on Saturday, its one of the best things Ive read in a while. (btw Has she made it here yet?) I think that might've been my moment, on some level, that I really utterly gave up on any of Those People ever having an honest or genuine moment. As she says in the post, they are determined to CRUSH him, and us. Winning more delegates etc isn't enough for them. (Hence kos' anihilistic mandate)

Mistakes, though, should not breed so much contempt. There is more behind it — the DNC and other power brokers and the Clinton campaign came to the conclusion that they had to utterly crush Bernie Sanders: his youthful actions on behalf of civil rights, his prolific Senate career, his ability to reach across the aisle and negotiate pragmatically, his message of inclusion and working together, his early advocacy for LGBT and women’s rights, his bedrock Democratic policies. All of it had to be misrepresented, denigrated, erased. Along with the integrity, thoughtfulness, and open hearts of those of us who support him.

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MonetaryLeviathon's picture

Positive thoughts? Yes, I am positive they are dead wrong.

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enhydra lutris's picture

done electronically by Move-On.org. The topic and issue was what will you do to get us out of Iraq quickly. HRC, IMOP, barely beat Obama as worst possible peace candidate. One thing was her passionately volunteering the information that we needed to be always ready and willing to deploy troops and military force to protect our foreign interests. I forget it all, but she was clearly interventionist and imperialist and her recent statements about being a global force for democracy (free market capitalism) bear that out.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

sensetolisten's picture

In particular, I'd appreciate answers to a couple of questions.

Yes. I would also appreciate answers to a couple of questions, as opposed to... ad hominem attacks, bullying, and outright censorship!!!

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“I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was hell.”
― Harry Truman

My Clinton supporting family members fall into two groups- !.) Low information voters who believe what the media says, and 2.)Conservative Democrats who see the Clintons as our modern day royal family that can do no wrong.

The second group is impossible to talk to because they easily get angry when things like Wall Street speeches get brought up. In fact, this same group would vote for Chelsea Clinton in 2020 or 2024 just because she is a Clinton.

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