04/22 Open Thread: Communication and narrative control

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Calling

All is propaganda, but all is not lost. We can replace the noise machine with our own narrative, and sidestep all the narrative control and manipulation by those currently running the show. Podcasts and podcasters, websites, probably twitsters too. One problem, of course is that the signal to noise ratio in the sea of podcasts, alternative media "stations", websites and the like is bad, reducing the efficacy of using those platforms to begin to deliver a reality based messaging stream, and I didn't bring up twitter because, well, twitter.

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Another problem is narrative control exercised by the owners and controllers of the platforms. Twitter, Facebook, and you tube, for example decide who can say what how, and seem to be reflexively conservative to right wing in their operations in this regard. Any ISP can block any web based content and hosting services can refuse to host sites and/or content for any reasons that they feel like and will increasingly come under pressure from TPTB to reign in or shut down those contradicting, challenging or questioning official psyops, propaganda and other narrative management campaigns, such as consent building for the next regime change war or junta, etc. At some point, the people will have to build out their own self- owned and controlled media and communication infrastructure, but that is a topic for another day.

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So what's the key for finding a reliable reality based narrative? Don't seek a narrative, just look for seemingly trustworthy information and keep checking and refining it. Discussions, back-and-forth communication, the exchange of sources; these things are all important. Gate-keepers not so much; in fact, eschew gate-keepers and all sites dominated by one, be it ideological, group think, some individual or committee, and the like. Admittedly totally anarchic sites are probably mostly noise, or at least difficult to put up with, but even c99 has gate-keepers. All the same, I think c99 actually pretty nearly fits the bill; Johnny, Joe, and the mods try very hard to only interfere in cases of serious incivility between posters, trolling, or posts that wander too close to one of those legal pitfalls that will get the site shutdown. That's in part because all of those involved are pretty much fanatical advocates of free speech and open, unfettered discussion. So, I'd look for places and persons that are very much advocates of, dedicated to, and believers in free and open discussion with no unnecessary restrictions.

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The blind pig problem:

We could try to apply Sherlock's dictum,"once you eliminate the impossible, whatever is left, no matter how improbable, is the truth", but we run into a snag with that "impossible" condition. If I am presented with putative information from the FBI, CIA, or any of the rest of the 17 "intelligence" agencies. I will usually insist on proof, though I might give conditional partial credence given enough sufficiently strong evidence. (Not that that matters, they never give any evidence, their reputation is supposed to ensure belief, but actually should do the exact opposite.) Just as it is totally fallacious to accept things simply on the say so of any specific person or organization (ad hominem or generic fallacy, as the case may be) it is likewise the same fallacy to absolutely reject anything simply because it comes from some specific source. Just as it is not impossible for some cop to get on the stand and tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, is is also not completely impossible for one of these organizations to actually somehow discover the truth about something and then turn around and actually divulge said truth and actually do so without in any way coloring or slanting it. (Not impossible. That's a perfect example of why I like to phrase things in the negative. To me, it really makes the intent and content much more clear than "possible".)

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So we cannot just dismiss sources or their contents outright, but we can still engage in filtering, or can we? We all know all kinds of sites and sources that are per se not objective. Republican sites and platforms, Democratic sites and platforms, candidate specific sites and platforms, electoral politics sites, capitalist sites, socialist sites, communist sites, government sites, etc. all have an axe to grind. The fact that they aren't objective, of course, doesn't make them wrong, and certainly not on everything. The local DMV, PITA though it probably is, is vastly more credible than the feebs or CIA. A used car salesperson will probably at least get the brand and year right, but will the average politician? Some things that influence the filtering process are verifiability, falsifiability, history, and, of course, cui bono. If it is trivially easy to prove or disprove a statement, then the likelihood that it is true usually increases, and if it is very difficult or impossible to do either, then there is no need for the presenter of the information to be worried about being caught out and the probability that is true must be dependent on other things, like, cui bono, history, and the like. That's why self-interested or conflicted sites and persons are generally not to be trusted, though they still could tell the truth, especially if it serves their interests to do so in the case at hand. Both the guilty and the innocent have an interest in claiming innocence, so a vested interest isn't necessary damning.

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The main thing is that if we wish to build out a network of trustworthy sites and sources, we are going to have to be it. There are plenty of folks who seem to more often than not be on target. These are generally people who insist upon having hard evidence and credible first hand witnesses before asserting something to be fact. These are the people whose information (though not necessarily opinions and/or conclusions) we should be sharing, after, at a minimum, an at least cursory analytical scrutiny of the likelihood that the instance of reportage under consideration is in fact substantially more likely than not true. Sometimes we should make independent checks or tests before so doing, but that decision can't easily be rule based, so it is, obviously a judgement call. Persons or sites not meeting those standards need to be identified as such as the alleged information is transmitted with some sort of caveat such as "this is from such and such, a less than gold standard source, so take it for what it is worth" or somesuch. I emphasized credible, above, and that is a big key here, assessing credibility. One think I'd like to point out cn be illustrated by some information I posted from Greg Palast the other day. He, in part, relied on testimony from an ex-spook. Not a per se trustworthy source. Can a spook ever be an "ex" spook while living, and can they ever be trusted on anything? In this case, the spook's testimony was essentially self-incriminating, and that makes a big difference. The general rule is that self-incriminatory evidence is vastly more credible than self-serving, or even neutral evidence. At law there is a presumption that such evidence is true. While presumptions are always rebuttable, they are useful and two that I find particularly useful are that self-incriminating or self-compromising testimony is very likely to be true and self-serving testimony is inherently suspect. Of course, that's an indirect application of the cui bono test, so is included in the tool kit on that basis anyway. Another is the hearsay rule. I don't x to tell me what y said, I want y to tell me what y said. This is a legal rule, true enough, but it is as old as "get it from the horse's mouth", which goes all the way back to an egregious error of Aristotle's making.

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OK, that's about it for today. We need to be our own reliable, credible, reality based network. We need to remember and be conscious of that while we do it, and we need to refine, examine, share, explicate and discuss our assorted credibility determination tools and methodologies. The underlying key, as always, is to get to the evidence and make sure that there is evidence. Another of Sherlock's dicta was "observation and deduction", rumor and deduction just won't cut it. In addition, we need to always be conscious of specificity, today's narratives and statements tend to be complex and compound, so things like "bob's assertion is (true / false)" is likely to be too broad to be overly helpful without more detail as to what specifics and in what way it is so.

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be well and have a good one

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Title Image Calling; picture captured by Ryan McGuire of Bells Design and free of copyright restrictions.

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It's an open thread, so have at it. The floor is yours
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Comments

Lookout's picture

For years I hosted a school festival (sometimes at the park) for Earth Day.
It was fun, but lots of work to set up and organize.

As to propaganda and reliable sources, as you suggest no source is 100% reliable.
To me the scary part is the commercialization of information and use of algorithms to exploit you as a commodity. That's the reason I'm faceless and tweetless.

I must admit I appreciate Snoop and others reporting the twitter sphere here, and my friends on facebook have been sending me plenty of jokes which I wouldn't otherwise hear. I guess the real point is we must be critical thinkers about the information we consume.

Well thanks for the OT and thoughts. Hope you're all doing well and have a wonderful Earth Day! Enjoy the biosphere.
How NASA studies Earth (2.5 min)
NASA joins the world in observing the 50th anniversary of Earth Day, we reaffirm our commitment to understanding our planet’s interconnected systems to help protect them for future generations.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d815wa7aIMs]

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

enhydra lutris's picture

@Lookout

For several years I helped an organization with its presentation at local E-Day events, but stopped for assorted reasons. It was fun. Don't know if there are any this year, but I suspect not (no large gatherings rule), I too eschew tweetster and and Facething and hence only see whatever others re-post here or e-mail me. They're both firehoses of content, only some of which is information, and I would simply spend waaaaaaaaay too much time there, as well as the other issues I have with them as to security, etc.

Be well and have a good one.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Raggedy Ann's picture

Communication is so important, but false communication can be so destructive. As Lookout said, we must be critical thinkers in this time of information overload.

This site, to me, is the truth site. I feel I can count on 95% of information presented here. It's also why it is the only site I choose to support on a monthly basis.

Let's remember to live in the present and to live in love.

Have a beautiful hump day, everyone! Pleasantry

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

enhydra lutris's picture

@Raggedy Ann

reliable or trustworthy sites, though like you, I also know it isn't perfect in that regard. It is, all the same, pretty damn good. I also agree with Lookout that critical thinking is a key to getting by and to keeping this place what it is.

As the man said, be here now. Also--

be well and have a good one.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

My hand has gone useless again. Adding to the mix is the top of my arm all the way to my elbow is numb.
Can't wait to apply mascara with the wrong hand.
I am seeing my dr. this morning.
Thank goodness the office is 5 minutes away. I should be able to negotiate one traffic light.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

enhydra lutris's picture

@on the cusp

yesterday that it was on the mend, but I missed the original announcement that it ws giving you grief until yesterday afternoon when I revisited some post, perhaps Joe's, that I had visited and left before you posted. I've had hands and other chunks of the arm lock up, or go very weak and sore, but never numb and limp except when I've slept on it for a long, long time, and then it is quite temporary. In short, I have no clue and can't really make any suggestions. My brain keeps saying "nerve", but only because I keep pinching mine, but all the same have never matched that kind of symptom, but I have old injuries and trauma and chronic problems, which I suspect you don't.

good luck at the doctors.

Try to be well and have the best day you can.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

@enhydra lutris to feed the cat. Next stop is the er for a ct.
They want to rule out stroke, hope down the road it is a pinched nerve.
A nurse practitioner walked by as the dr. was telling me to get a driver or go by ambulance. The NP said, "She was my lawyer in a case where I won custody of my son. Forget telling her anything."
Jesus!

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Azazello's picture

Chinese Agents Spread Messages That Sowed Virus Panic in U.S., Officials Say

American officials were alarmed by fake text messages and social media posts that said President Trump was locking down the country. Experts see a convergence with Russian tactics.

"Officials say ...", "Experts see ..."
These phrases set off my bullshit meter.

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We wanted decent healthcare, a living wage and free college.
The Democrats gave us Biden and war instead.

enhydra lutris's picture

@Azazello

here. I am also leery of anything attributing anything to any sort of foreign agents. Some must, no doubt, exist, but historically it seems that our grief is almost invariably home grown. Variants of the "foreign agents" type of narrative have been the bane of this country for ages, and it seems that I've been a witting or unwitting one on many occasions myself if I were to believe the press and the US government sources.

It's not like I stick to a strict falsifiability criterion for everything, but shit like that is so amorphous and asubstantive that I won't bother trying to ferret out any content (or the possibility thereof) and won't bother trying to refute it if it is introduces as fact by somebody, but will simply call it articulate gibberish.

Do you ever feel like playing Wittgenstein and just rising up and shouting unsinn! and then sitting back down?

be well and have a good one.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

CB's picture

@Azazello
You can then do a quick check on the background of the media's sources used in the report to see if they have an agenda. In this case, one is the Alliance for Securing Democracy (the loaded name in itself s/b a red flag) which designed and promoted the now debunked Hamilton 68 Dashboard.

State-Backed Alliance for Securing Democracy Smears The Grayzone
February 13, 2020

The Alliance for Securing Democracy, an online censorship initiative of the Western government-funded German Marshall Project, falsely and hypocritically characterized The Grayzone and independent journalist Jordan Chariton as “state-backed media,” smearing them for their factual reporting on the shadowy network behind the controversial app that undermined the integrity of the Iowa caucuses.

The Grayzone has exposed the Alliance for Securing Democracy (ASD) in a series of investigative reports as a neo-McCarthyite outfit prone to spreading disinformation, staffed by counter-terror cranks and national security hustlers.

The ASD’s parent organization also happens to be bankrolled by the U.S. government, numerous European governments, and the European Union, to the tune of millions of dollars — making these false accusations against The Grayzone and Jordan Chariton actual state-backed smears.
...

Another factor to keep in mind is if the media uses unproved 'facts' as a basis for their report. In this case, both of the sources use Russian manipulation of Twitter and Facebook as a proven fact in affecting the political views of ordinary American citizens.

The NYT hit piece is an excellent example of Edward Bernays' - Manipulation of the American Mind.

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enhydra lutris's picture

@CB

for Securing Democracy are, in themselves, a red flag. Thanks for the link to the article on Bernays, there can never be enough light cast on him and his works.

be well and have a good one.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

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enhydra lutris's picture

@gjohnsit

of course, we did show up in media res. I sure would like to know for what and why and on what authority. If there is some ordinance closing all parks or playgrounds or that specific one or whatever for the duration, it seems like it might have made more sense to just leave unless this is intentional civil disobedience. I am often (generally?) a fan of civil disobedience, but usually not accompanied by kids and/or infants.

be well and have a good one.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

lotlizard's picture

their degree of ingrained distrust of “approved” information sources and news media.

This is a working class that knows from firsthand experience that everyone “above” them is — as part of the price of keeping that higher relative social and economic perch on the ladder — very likely either actively “in cahoots” with, or at least passively complicit in, an agreement to advance only certain ideas and narratives and suppress others.

Everything, while not quite as staged and falsified as before, is still in ideological lockdown, in service to a clique — only the elite is Western now rather than Soviet.

Unfortunately, the old East German system left tainted a lot of idealistic and altruistic notions, such as socialism and solidarity. Whereby notions of patriotism and pride in heritage and culture had already been left quasi-permanently tainted by You-Know-Who, before that …

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enhydra lutris's picture

@lotlizard

This is a working class that knows from firsthand experience that everyone “above” them is — as part of the price of keeping that higher relative social and economic perch on the ladder — very likely either actively “in cahoots” with, or at least passively complicit in, an agreement to advance only certain ideas and narratives and suppress others.

would that that was much more common knowledge globally, especially in the US.

be well and have a good one.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

boriscleto's picture

But Prince Andrew announced today that Bloomberg has been given a contract to spy on track NYers. I'm sure this isn't because of his 12 years experience of surveilling American citizens foreign terrorists.

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" In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy "

enhydra lutris's picture

@boriscleto

going to be spying for or on behalf of, The Queen, MI 5, 6 or 7, or the Tories or what??

be well and have a good one.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

boriscleto's picture

@enhydra lutris Son of King Mario

Bloomberg, the reverse Robin Hood...

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" In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy "

enhydra lutris's picture

@boriscleto

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

QMS's picture

@boriscleto

slipped thru my mind and became tourists
I guess most foreigners are either one or the other
the prince should know

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boriscleto's picture

@QMS The quotes slipped my mind.

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" In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy "

QMS's picture

Thanks for the OT.
Really like the pic of the ventilator.
Small minds like mine are just fooling around.
You all serious thinkers do your thang.

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enhydra lutris's picture

@QMS

checked out Cal's falcon cam yet. Good way to fool around. Link in yesterday's column.

be well and have a good one.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

QMS's picture

@enhydra lutris @enhydra lutris

[video:https://www.raptorresource.org/birdcams/decorah-eagles/]
https://www.raptorresource.org/birdcams/decorah-eagles/

three nestlings looking to mama for food

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Granma's picture

Off the community here. I keep wondering who is profiting off this mess. I remember when they were unraveling Watergate, the informant kept telling Woodward and Bernstein to follow the money.

More important is that we keep thinking of our federal government as a total failure during this crisis. But that depends on what the goal is. Trump's appointees to every Cabinet position were people committed to destroying the work of that department of the government. If the goal was to wreck that department and its activities, it has been a success.

What is happening now? Not only is the federal government not helping, not doing any of the things they should be doing, but they are actually interfering in several ways. They are outbidding states, cities, and hospital groups for PPE and needed equipment and supplies. And confiscating/stealing those things when an entity has succeeded in purchasing them.

The protests against shut down in various states are being funded by Kochs, DeVos, and maybe others, via far right political groups.

My head spins as I try to make some sense of these events. Big money did not want shut downs, wants things opened up again. I get that. I know they don't care about little people. But it seems to me there is something else going on out of sight. (The trillion $ giveaway was in the open, part of it anyway.)

And I keep wondering what the Feds are doing with the PPE and other supplies they have been acquiring since they aren't giving it to the places begging for it.

Any ideas, anyone?

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QMS's picture

@Granma

It may be as big as the elites trying to cull the herd.
Also, could be as small as ineptitude on many levels.
It would appear the authorities are not up to the task
of saving us from their purposeful destruction of
safety nets. Mixed blame and lack of accountability
seems about right. Have you a solution?

Thanks

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Granma's picture

@QMS @QMS

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QMS's picture

@Granma

haven't definitive answers
think we are all rolling thru the
muck about just yet
answers will come in time
meanwhile keep questioning
drowning in misinformation
and partial truths
gets us further from solutions

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enhydra lutris's picture

@Granma

the motive and perceived endgame elude me too. Perhaps stocking their bunkers, the private hospitals and clinics they will patronize? Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts and minds of men.

BTW, the spelling of your username has always intrigued me, as in
This Granma, aka La Granma?
Santiago de Cuba - Museo de la Lucha Clandestina

photo by Bartwatching, on Flickr

Granma with guard

photo by Ann on Flickr

be well and have a good one

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Granma's picture

@enhydra lutris we have that for sure. Like the rest of you, I want to look past or under that narrative. There is something more going on. We have a lot of really good minds here. Maybe we can come up with some, at least, partial answers.

My user name: That is how my young grandchildren pronounce Grandma and I was spending a lot of time with them when I needed a user name.

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smiley7's picture

@Granma
in time, will prove, it's by intent to solidify power. Who are the catbird daddy's pulling the strings, same old group of a handful of wealthy families and the corporate dudes, so shrewd, in feeding the oligarchs so as to not to get their heads chopped off in the process of bringing in the doh-ray-me.

The people die and the powerful gloat about ice cream in freezers. Damn, how gullible will this populace be? How long before we break? The PTB is prepared, instigating and funding the 'open up' movement, ensuring that even if good people rise, an army's properly propagandized and wanting to suppress the better intentions of the majority.

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lotlizard's picture

@enhydra lutris  
the Cuban newspaper Granma.

http://en.granma.cu/

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enhydra lutris's picture

@lotlizard

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Granma's picture

@lotlizard but went with the truth. I'm not good at names or handles. But I'm ok at coming up with passwords.

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travelerxxx's picture

@Granma

And I keep wondering what the Feds are doing with the PPE and other supplies they have been acquiring since they aren't giving it to the places begging for it.

My guess, and it's only that, is that it's for the US military to care for their covid cases. Several weeks ago, the government announced that they would no longer supply data on the number of US military personnel affected. We've found out some of it anyway, but I'm guessing they're stealing it for that. If not, and it's being hoarded, then they all need to see prison time ...or a certain French invention.

One thing that adds to my suspicion that the US military has a very bad covid problem is that Trump and/or Pompeo have made "unforced" announcements to no one in particular saying, more or less, to "Not mess with us while we're down." Well, no one was messing with us to begin with. I see no reason to even make such a statement unless there's something going on regarding rampant illness throughout the military.

Trump's appointees to every Cabinet position were people committed to destroying the work of that department of the government. If the goal was to wreck that department and its activities, it has been a success.

Yes, unfortunately it's been a resounding success. Hell, they didn't even have to fight – they've got the Democrats helping!

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Granma's picture

@travelerxxx be onto something. The supplies they are acquiring may well be for the military, some of it anyway.

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Sima's picture

@travelerxxx It is very insightful. I'm going to be keeping my eyes open. Thank you for posting your thoughts on this.

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

QMS's picture

magiamma's picture

Et al

Great essay and comments. Where else do you go besides here ? Just curious. Thanks for the ot.

Take good care and have a good one.

Edit to add -I just watched the Michael Moore movie. Fuck me. I’m in shock. So sad what we have come to be.

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Stop Climate Change Silence - Start the Conversation

Hot Air Website, Twitter, Facebook

enhydra lutris's picture

@magiamma @magiamma

I do cross post my OTs over on DK but don't really hang oout or browse around there. This place keeps me pretty busy as it is, given that I also have a lot of projects around the house.

As to reading, I get Caitlin and Counterpunch and some other stuff in my e-mail and sporadically check out asia times and other non-US news sources.

be well and have a good one.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

enhydra lutris's picture

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --