My confession

For the sake of full disclosure, I'd like to say:

I've been wrong before

Not only that, but I fully intend to be wrong again in the future. I'm a serial wrong-doer.

I know, it's shocking that someone would admit this in public. I am not perfect IRL or online.
It's an unforgivable sin.

Why do I bring this up?
Because in a recent essay I made a statement that I didn't fully back up with facts. I still believe it is correct, but it wasn't a fully fleshed out idea.
Most people responding either agreed or disagreed (like you are supposed to do).

However, one person who disagreed took it personal, and demanded an apology for the unforgivable crime of being wrong.

Do people ever act like that IRL? I certainly don't, and no one I know does either.
But it is common online, and especially at TOP.

And that's what I want to address now.

Adults can disagree about something without taking things personally. If you feel strongly about something then say so.
I won't be offended if someone say, "Sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong and here's why."
That's a constructive response.

A non-constructive response is to think that because you had an emotional reaction to something then you don't own that emotion. The person who wrote something that caused you to have an emotion that you didn't enjoy must make some sort of restitution for your temporary lack of emotional well-being.
This sort of thinking leads us nowhere.

Please, please, please don't bring the bad habits of TOP with you.

C99P is not a"safe space". People here might say something that you don't agree with.
What's more, they might even be wrong (gasp).
It's a big reason why many of us left TOP. You can be wrong on C99P without the public shaming (within limits, of course).

Has anyone else been wrong online?

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Comments

regards
H R Clinton

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Beware the bullshit factories.

lunachickie's picture

HA! In our house, the rallying cry has become "Hang on a second, somebody's wrong on the Internet, lemme just finish this one comment...." , hahaha!

No, but seriously, I have never seen this better-described:

took it personal, and demanded an apology for the unforgivable crime of being wrong. ... The person who wrote something that caused you to have an emotion that you didn't enjoy must make some sort of restitution for your temporary lack of emotional well-being.

What a perfect way to put it. You don't own another person's reaction to something you wrote online. THEY own it. Whatever it is, it's on them.

I do have a question, though:

You can be wrong on C99P without the public shaming (within limits, of course).

Does this mean "you can be wrong within limits", or "there is some public shaming that we find acceptable, within limits"? Wink

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For instance, if someone started doing Holocaust denial, even I would have a problem with that level of "being wrong". And I consider myself pretty tolerant.
So yeh, nothing is absolute.

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which is DailyKos. And DBAD is don't be a dick. Stupid fucking phrase, and it's sexist.

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Deja's picture

I know I'm not normal, but I don't see insults like those as being sexist. It might have to do with the nickname my bff in highschool gave me - Cunt. Mine for him? Cock.

The following is going to make me look bad in some people's eyes, but so be it:

I tend to call anyone on the road who scares me or pisses me off with their driving a, "stupid fucking whore." I don't reserve it for females, and many times I never see the other driver. I also don't scream it out the window.

I just don't understand how some people (maybe even most) see these insults as sexist. But I know I'm not normal, like I already said.

Not trying to argue, either. Just tossing in my 2 cents.

On another note, it might be good to have an acronym post made sticky or at least linked in the new user essays.

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elenacarlena's picture

an evolving thing. But food for thought: I think there are two big reasons not to use the B word or the others:

First of all, you just know at the most inopportune moment, some right-wing sexist troll is going to happen by, read your words and say to all his friends, "See?! Progressives are sexist too!! We're SO right!!" And of course when you're responding to a nasty person who happens to be a woman, you're not responding to the fact she's a woman, but the fact she's nasty. You don't want to dilute your message or convey the wrong message.

Secondly, and this may be the more serious of the two: Domestic violence is still a common thing. And what does the abuser say while beating a woman, possibly to the point of death or needing hospitalization? All those nasty names. So these are potentially triggering words. For the same reason, we don't call minorities by insulting names referring to skin tone. We don't know how often domestic violence happens, but I guarantee you most women on this site have been attacked (physically or not) with those words. So I would request that they not be used. Of course if we don't have outright PTSD, we can steel ourselves not to be upset by them. But why should women be the only group whose insulting words are still part of the public discourse?

That said, I suspect dick or cock does not have the same emotional force with men, as most "isms" do not have the same emotional force against the oppressors as those used against the oppressed. But in order to be called the names I want to be called, I am happy to call others the names they want to be called. So one request that I not use the D word is enough for me to seek alternatives. Thus DBAJ. YMMV.

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Deja's picture

I don't say survivor lightly, either. He nearly beat me (slamming my head into the barely cushioned arm rest of our cheap couch while holding his other hand firmly over my mouth and nose, rendering me unconscious and "allowing" me oxygen/consciousness at his whim) to death. Held me at gun point too.

He tried the names. Cunt really pissed him off, and he eventually quit saying it because my reaction would be laughter. That made him really mad.

Been thinking about this since posted above. Maybe it wasn't the bff that desensitized me to "words" used in an attempt to hurt.

No, it was probably my childhood. Ya see, the first person to ever call me, "BITCH!" was my mom, when I was 12. Afterwards, she chased me down, cornered me, and beat the shit out of me because I wouldn't respond to her mean, antagonistic ass.

I can't imagine being triggered by words. Doesn't mean it never happen for people. I certainly relate to those triggered by sounds. I'm one. When the slamming starts, I'm about to be assaulted/bleed/hurt/die. Yelling too. Work kicks my ass because of the sounds.

I'll think on this more. I don't wanna hurt anyone, for sure!

P.S. I'm not asking for hugs or sorrys. Those make me really uncomfortable. I chose the sociopath, and now I'm free. Woot!

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mimi's picture

Cray 2 ... xoxo

here are words (as a foreigner I may have other sensibilities) I don't use and which irritate me when I hear them, though I can hide my emotions or thoughts about the person, who uses them.
German ones:
xxxxx
xxxxx
xxxxx
xxxxx
(I can't remember other ones, but I would never write or speak them out)

English:
xxx
xxxxx
xxxxx
xxxxx
xxxxx
xxxxxxxxx
xxxxx (in real life I do not use it ever, online I can say that, but always feel it's cheap to do so from me)

ok, I don't know other English bad words, so if you use them I don't know what they mean.

I usually don't say anything, if someone really uses some bad language, I mean bad, bad. I think my thing and go on.

I am more sensitive to malicious sarcasm, depends on how exhausted I am.

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featheredsprite's picture

if they sell their integrity in order to get something. When I call someone a whore, I'm not referring to sex workers.

"Cunt" bothers me. A lot. And I can't explain why.

"Bitch" is sometimes a badge of honor and it doesn't both me.

I assume being called a "dick" is insulting to a man.

My harshest criticism of anyone is "dildo", meaning sexually competent but completely without brains

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Life is strong. I'm weak, but Life is strong.

Deja's picture

Except he might never have had any integrity at all.

Pussy bothers me when it's used as a "you're weak" insult, (basically always) because, as far as I'm concerned, those muscles are the strongest, and most resilient in the female body. Weak? Not even close.

We have so jacked this thread! Apologies!

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Bisbonian's picture

was yet another weird banjo tuning.

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

elenacarlena's picture

sexist because of jerking off but I don't think so. I think being a jerk predates jerking off and has nothing to do with the latter. Someone else said they use DBAA, don't be an a$$. I guess it may take us a while to come to a consensus on this one.

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from DBAD to DBAA a couple of months ago.

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Don't be an asshole is gender neutral, so I think it's perfect.

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against those born without asses?

/s

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Clinton's campaign rhetoric is so cynical and insubstantial that it's not even wrong -- it's just fluff to fill what would otherwise be dead air.

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Please help support caucus99percent!

gulfgal98's picture

the perfect word to describe the Clinton campaign.

Cynical!

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Pluto's Republic's picture

What do you call it when people no longer bother to hide their immorality?

Is it sociopathic?

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
elenacarlena's picture

with anything, people will like you no matter what you do (or don't do).

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Eom

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Alligator Ed's picture

But sociopathy means more than lying, even pathological lying although that is included. Not bothering to hide one's immorality is part of a picture: having NO REMORSE for the consequences of one's actions. This descriptor is perfectly suited for Hillary and Bill Clinton.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

Smile

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

riverlover's picture

but most definitely in our lifestyles.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

But I was wrong. Smile

Seriously, though, good essay and spot on as usual.

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as someone having a bad day. But then, it wasn't directed at me, either.
But I have been that person on occasion and had to backtrack a bit with my projections. Shit happens, and tomorrow's another day.
peace

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Ya got to be a Spirit, cain't be no Ghost. . .

Explain Bldg #7. . . still waiting. . .

If you’ve ever wondered whether you would have complied in 1930’s Germany,
Now you know. . .
sign at protest march

gulfgal98's picture

I saw it as a misunderstanding. The interpretation of the impact of one investigation cannot be carried over to another investigation. FWIW, your essay spurred a lot of interesting discussion which I have totally enjoyed reading. Whether or not I agree is less relevant than if it makes me think.

BTW, I am wrong all the time in real life and I am sure I am here from time to time.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

I've always loved that quip.

What makes it funny for me is that I know it's BS. What might make it funny for Clinton is that she thinks it's true. She's never wrong. She just evolves.

With all this evolution she's doing, I want to see something bigger - actual proof she's evolved. Flippers. Nictitating membranes. Something.

If she can do that, and show some true evolution without it being all words. Maybe I'd vote for h… - er nope. Not a chance.

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Deja's picture

That's what she's hiding with her unflattering wardrobe.

It's what was being covered up by deleting all those emails.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

…before I would vote for someone with invisible friends in the sky.

That's just me, of course. But I may have to rethink that.

You hang out with chickens, which descended from a species with near-prehensile tails. So you would know if she was hiding one.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
elenacarlena's picture

our invisible sky friends are real? But don't worry, I think they're a lot more concerned with loving kindness than which bathroom you use.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

At least two of them. But they know others.

I'm pretty sure they are physicists. They are very service oriented and quite useful at times. They seem to be dependent upon my approval, which will somehow evolve them closer to my level of existence.

But if I were running for office, I wouldn't mention my invisible friends to anyone Wink It might make people uncomfortable.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
featheredsprite's picture

I think you owe them an apology.

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Life is strong. I'm weak, but Life is strong.

PriceRip's picture

However, one person who disagreed took it personal, and demanded an apology for the unforgivable crime of being wrong.

          Well that lets me off the hook. I never "demand an apology", I just fuss and fume and pout and shout. [Damn, I should'a been a song writer‽]

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PastorAgnostic's picture

Even though mine sport 11.5 shoes.

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elenacarlena's picture

Do tiny little hands mean also tiny little feet? (Not to mention of course tiny little minds)

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that Kos promoted. People do not disagree in good faith. They must be demonized. You're not wrong; you must be evil.

Some here are trying to move past that, but others are still stuck in it.

A more left Daily Kos is nowhere, at least not for me.

You're post was fine.

I am amazed that anyone thinks the Obama DOJ woukd ever indict Hillary. Just like anyone thinks that the super delagates woukd switch to Bernie.

What part of a rigged system do they not understand?

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

But two caveats:

1)Obama does not like Hillary.

2) (the more important point) Hillary seems to have genuinely pissed off the military part of the Deep State, in particular its covert arm.

If these two things were not true, I doubt there would be any proceedings at all, much less extraditing some hacker from Romania and reducing his sentence by over 100 years, and articles like this in the mainstream press: http://www.newsweek.com/hillary-clinton-email-terrorism-sloppy-communica...

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Thumb's picture

You're post was fine.

Well that certainly invalidates everything you've ever said. Ever!

/Grammar Nazi

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"Polls don't tell us how well a candidate is doing; Polls tell us how well the media is doing." ~ Me

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elenacarlena's picture

You're merely a fledgling grammar Nazi.

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Muddy Boots's picture

Said person was sure it would all come clear by Wednesday.

So Thursday would be mea culpa day for somebody.

Then I realized I had other matters more deserving of my attention.

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"If we all threw our problems in a pile and saw everyone else's, we'd grab ours back" - Regina Brett

riverlover's picture

I was wrong, thought I might have to test my water well capacity today. But it rained, with thunder. More on the way (on radar). Already over 0.5".

I am sure I have accused someone of something sometime and discovered I was wrong. Such is easily forgotten, if apology occurs. Unless the affronted carries grudges.

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Arrow's picture

{cry}{cry}{cry}...(returns to picking up hookers in New Orleans)

A very valid point you make gjohnsit.

I always try to be a big enough person to admit it.

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I want a Pony!

Deja's picture

I saw the exchange. I'd be interested in an essay by the person who called you wrong. But other than semantics, I don't see the big deal. Two issues regarding the same subject.

To me it's like I write an essay about a chicken and you come in saying I'm wrong because it's not about a sparrow. Both are birds, and you can eat them both, but a chicken will fill you up.

Then again, I could be completely wrong. Wink

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putting sunglasses on a chicken, that's just wrong. Biggrin

BTW, I love that avatar, it makes me cackle chuckle every time I see it.

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Arrow's picture

They used to give them red ones so they wouldn't peck each other to death.
So. you are wrong JtC

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I want a Pony!

that chicken wears sunglasses as a disguise, that's how chickens stay alive. Kind of like how nobody recognizes Clark Kent as Superman when he has his glasses on.

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detroitmechworks's picture

but he's not a man, he's a Chicken Trump...

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45bUOIK2cAo]

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

I couldn't tell because of the sunglasses.
What else haven't I noticed?

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elenacarlena's picture

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elenacarlena's picture

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Deja's picture

Biggrin

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mimi's picture

I didn't get it and asked him once what it is and he finally explained it to me and called me "silly woman". I felt really personally upset about it (silly me), but did not ask for an apology ... because how silly would that be?

May be I should put on some red glasses on before I read deja's comments. That would make me a sister chicken with glasses and I would be excused for any silly thing I'd say. Yes 3

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mimi's picture

within the context of this meta subject. Just saying, because it's hard to understand a silly woman's joke.

Deja, I love your chicken avatar and feel like I am smart enough to "get" it now. Smile

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Deja's picture

I never meant to hurt your feelings by calling you a silly woman. I thought we were joking with each other. I never meant to hurt your feelings.

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mimi's picture

and now you apologize for some jokes and old teases and make it serious. Stop immediately and go to prison/s. Wacko

Seriously, do not ever apologize to me again about anything that happens online.

Lord, forgive me my sins, because I don't know when I am doing them...Now I need a drink with you...
Drinks

Doesn't this exchange between Deja and me just demonstrate the stupidity of apologies and as such to ask for them as well?

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mimi's picture

is one of the hardest things to get right... tell me about it.

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Deja's picture

Blum 3

Hell yeah, I'll have a drink with you, but I have to wait 2.5 hours. My days of drinking in the middle of the day are past me. Too old to be sloshed by 7 pm Wink

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PriceRip's picture

Cray 2

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Deja's picture

I know, a freak of nature considering my Sir name; but, I'll take one over a Dale's Pale Ale any day of the year! That's pure liquid shit in a bottle. No thanks!

I'll just stick with gin and soda, or seltzer. Or hell, gin and water as long as it's cold. Smile

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riverlover's picture

cold, no ice though. Vermouth is optional. Regular drinking glass preferable. Green olives are a nice touch. Summer...

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Deja's picture

Hope you have your drink ready, because here goes (an oldie I love):

Here's to you.
Here's to me.
Should we ever disagree,
Fuck you; here's to me!

*clink* (the sound of our glasses tapping, not the place, spelled differently, where you told me to go)

Love ya, silly woman!
Blum 3

P.S. that's sisterly love so don't freak out on me lol

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mimi's picture

chickening out.

Cheers.

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PriceRip's picture

          As a professional scientist, if I am not wrong from time to time then I am not doing it right.

          I know, I know, that's not acceptable. I often interact with others that think that's a heretical thought.
          I have had students complain to the dean about me, based upon this very point. There are far too many scientists and nonscientists alike that think science is supposed to be an infallible process and that only "losers" make mistakes.

          I am rather intolerant of those that are intolerant of those of us that make mistakes.

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Aardvark's picture

your comment reminds me of one of the many pieces of advice that Dick Feynman used to give:

"Don't fool yourself. And you and the easiest person to fool."

This is not merely axiomatic to scientific inquiry, whatever that means precisely. It is axiomatic to a functioning society, including a functioning political apparatus.

However, ours is a society where a reality can be created which is not true. This untrue reality is created and perpetuated to protect another reality which IS true and is one which would disappear were we to stop believing in the first reality, which is false.

Peace and love be with you, reader.

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mimi's picture

if I may say so. Smile

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PriceRip's picture

          to talk to Feynman one day, but was afraid to approach him. I told Doug, "I bet he would have been delighted if you had." Yea, I said those words because I was lucky enough to grow up with a dad much like Richard's. And, like him and his dad, we often talked of how do you know you know a thing and other such mind bending topics.

          From some very specific perspectives "coming of age" in the 50's and 60's was very good. I can't say "those were the good ol' days." but they did have their moments.

Keep on truckin' [Damn where are those Bell Bottoms]

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wilderness voice's picture

is one that does not provide any information"
-Heard long ago.

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Thumb's picture

A few years back we made a bunch of shop T-shirts that had, "If you've never been burned, you're not trying hard enough!" printed on them.

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"Polls don't tell us how well a candidate is doing; Polls tell us how well the media is doing." ~ Me

elenacarlena's picture

to approach your hypotheses as if they are provable/disprovable. And even theories can be modified by new evidence.

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Aardvark's picture

for this post.

I have been wrong, or misunderstood, on this site.

I take stress seriously. I understand that this is not a safe site, as you put it. I understand too that we are engaged in discussions of difficult matters which we all take personally in one way or another.

Despite this, I have vowed to myself that I am not going to ruin someone's day to make a point, no matter how strongly I feel.

No one's mental health is worth me getting my way in a situation such as this, which is not germane to the immediate health, safety, or well-being of anyone.

If I am wrong about that, please close your browser and call 9-1-1.

Indeed, I am passionate about aspects of the human condition. I want to engage in real debate, well-founded, well-argued, about the details of what makes society function, how we think we understand the world around us, and how to change the cognitive reality with which we all struggle.

Yet when I detect more than a logical challenge in an argument, then I have to ask why someone is engaging in this way with me. Do they have a problem with which they are struggling, which surfaces in this forum as aggression?

No crime is committed is disagreeing with me, or insulting me - at least not if the server is in the United States! Therefore, I am free to take all matter of mitigating circumstances into account, and to err on the side of the well-being of another person.

Standing down in these cases in my view makes the most sense. Perhaps I shall make my point another way, on another occasion.

To react in this manner, namely, with deference to the emotional or psychological situation of another person, patterns behavior that is not expected.

I do not wish to suggest that this is a pattern of behavior I always follow. I do not wish too to suggest that everyone ought to do the same, every time.

One thing is certain: for me, a change in my attitude is an act of rebellion, a revolutionary act, against what I have observed and disliked.

Now where are the criticisms and attacks against a diary on ideology which I posted earlier this week? Was it so difficult to read?

Peace and love be with you, reader.

Corrected for ellipses of concentration. Again.

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wilderness voice's picture

No one's mental health is worth me getting my way in a situation such as this, which is not germane to the immediate health, safety, or well-being of anyone.

Exactly. This place is a breath of fresh air compared to what ToP has become. There will always be disagreements and different points of view. This site is a safe space as far as I am concerned because what I have seen practiced here so far is civility. By comparison, at ToP even the mildest objection to abusive behavior is met with the taunt, "Oh, so you won't vote for H because someone insulted you on the internet". No, I won't vote for H because her shills are abusive, engage in divisive politics, and she is a corrupt warmonger..

But I digress. I do agree with GJ that we are responsible for our own emotions. My way of taking that responsibility is to just say no abuse and hang out in healthy surroundings.

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mimi's picture

how often I have committed the sin of having taken something personal (can't recall I ever asked for an apology, but who knows, I forget my sins easily...) .

What can I say I take some shit diaries on TOP somehow personally in the sense that I get personally upset. Then I can lash back personally. I don't recall having asked someone to apologize. (I have been asked though and my apologies were never accepted) I apologize pretty often when I feel I posted something "over the top". But then, who takes those apologies seriously anyhow, when some person felt hurt or accused personally by what I did said or did wrong?

Am I in your books for that? Because I have had some bad days every so often. Sigh. I think I did bad to TomP.

It's a good meta subject to write about. Thanks.

PS: (I always wonder about apologies. There are those politicians feel necessary to make for the sins of their forefathers. Ok, I consider it a guesture, but do you really take them seriously? Should I apologize for the Nazis of my father's generation? I could, but would it have any meaning to you? Inhofe apologized for slavery when he spoke in Africa somewhere - the video of it I can't find anymore - and I found that almost an insulting hypocrisy. But YMMV.)

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stupid and evil. I might have been wrong, but now I come here and I'm I'm not stupid and evil. I can live with wrong, so long as folks can be civil and sincere.

Thanks for the diary!

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Peace out, tmp.

detroitmechworks's picture

is that an error doesn't become a mistake until you refuse to correct it.

Some politicians never make errors.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

riverlover's picture

I have apologized here to several writers about comments I made that came off sounding flip. I apologized to those writers, just to clear the air. I understand we all will not agree on everything. Differences in opinion should be honored and accepted. I am relieved to find c99p as a place, not safe, we are not babies, probably thousands of human experience years here. We have not come from same places, countries, decades. Just discuss. We each have a POV.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

precisely BECAUSE people can disagree without it becoming a flamewar.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Safe space for most people demanding it is 'no one can discuss anything in my presence which disagrees with my opinions.

It gets really annoying, ridiculous and even disgusting when someone like that makes the claim that they've been 'triggered' because someone dared to disagree their opinion.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

This hijacks my concept of Digital Safe Space and makes it the opposite of what I meant.

Fucking vortex of propaganda and spin shredding every concept and definition and word like tissue paper fed into a centrifuge...

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

wilderness voice's picture

Safe space to me means a place where people can disagree yet remain civil. Maybe we should distinguish between the two by calling the other a "safe space" with the quotations included.

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I use the term Safe Space in the way it is used on universities.
i.e. a place where ideas that may upset you can't be expressed.

That concept is incompatible with free speech. And censorship of ideas is one of the reasons I left TOP

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

They are now populated by many students that suffer from a variety of social anxiety issues and who only possess a surface level understanding of the subjects they are being instructed in, particularly when it comes to humanities courses that deal with social, cultural, and political theory. But they also recognize that there is injustice in the world and are optimistic enough to want to do something about it.

The combination of these three things often results in the cultivation of a culture of authoritarianism, where a bunch of insecure late teens and early 20-somethings, convinced of their own intellectual correctness, use tactics of shame and intimidation to get others to ascribe to their political agenda. When they are challenged or called out on this, they feel persecuted, as they believe they are only trying to do the right thing, which results in the creation of "safe spaces" where they feel they won't be judged.

Frankly, many college students are afraid to question their own beliefs and engage with individuals of different perspectives. They're ideologically conditioned to believe that the facts are on their side, and are only open to other points of view if they are framed as "new" information that doesn't conflict with what they think they already know.

It's not entirely their fault considering how the educational system works in this country--advancing the idea that going to college is more about career development than intellectual inquiry, hence the highlighting of STEM--and the way that universities are often managed by corporations or a board of some kind that have incorporated neoliberalism into the foundation of the institution itself, but often the behavior of many students seems counterproductive and goes against the basic idea of a liberal education.

Just my two cents.

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riverlover's picture

And I saw that at a minor Ivy 6 years ago. Snowflakes, if I want to dismiss them all, but I did not.

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elenacarlena's picture

a "safe space," where this is a safe space because there are no cliques, no hide ratings, and we're mostly civil about our disagreements.

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At dk a safe space is a Clinton open thread with a cutesy name. Only positive statement can be made in it about Clinton. If you say something critical, they HR you enough to hide your comment or to stick you in a time out long enough to be eligible for the SS she is going to destroy.

It was a bad day for someone conditioned by TOP to react emotionally. I am sure this diary and all of the comments in it recognize that. Top has response diaries to diaries. In the response diaries, people gather to mock. I just want to make it clear that this essay and thread is NOT that. Someone had a bad day. Let's just let it go.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

I just spotted something that always got under my skin at TOP.
I'm fully aware of where that sort of thinking leads, and I thought it would be constructive to have an open discussion about it.
That way we don't need to discuss it ever again.

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attempting to discuss this issue at TOP. So much so that I thought the tone was pretty harsh, but immediately understood why he'd use that language. Before the IG report came out, when you said anything about the e-mails, it was as if a thunderstorm of mockery would rise up from the desert to swallow the diary.

Now, that thunderstorm still arrives, but instead it's desperate spin so implausible that you know the campaign hasn't given anyone any real talking points about this. It's just a deluge of ignorance and scorn, with a hint of far-off fear.

I don't agree with your diary. A second campaign for president launched by one of the world's most powerful people is beginning to seize up and die. Did you notice the NY Times article with prominent Dems concern trolling the campaign, including Schumer? The long knives are being unsheathed, and if Hillary doesn't offer something other than "it was approved" before the CA primary, we'll have a new centrist Dem proposed before the end of July.

I mean, Feinstein had to go on the Sunday shows and say, "she needed it to communicate with Bill and Chelsea", repeating the now defunct "it was for privacy" talking point that the campaign is attempting to regurgitate. I hope that, out of the craziness of the next few weeks, Bernie finds an avenue to win at the convention. It would be the type of political miracle that this nation needs.

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The beauty of modern man is not in the persons but in the
Disastrous rhythm, the heavy and mobile masses, the dance of the
Dream-led masses down the dark mountain.
- Robinson Jeffers, Rearmament

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