My confession

For the sake of full disclosure, I'd like to say:

I've been wrong before

Not only that, but I fully intend to be wrong again in the future. I'm a serial wrong-doer.

I know, it's shocking that someone would admit this in public. I am not perfect IRL or online.
It's an unforgivable sin.

Why do I bring this up?
Because in a recent essay I made a statement that I didn't fully back up with facts. I still believe it is correct, but it wasn't a fully fleshed out idea.
Most people responding either agreed or disagreed (like you are supposed to do).

However, one person who disagreed took it personal, and demanded an apology for the unforgivable crime of being wrong.

Do people ever act like that IRL? I certainly don't, and no one I know does either.
But it is common online, and especially at TOP.

And that's what I want to address now.

Adults can disagree about something without taking things personally. If you feel strongly about something then say so.
I won't be offended if someone say, "Sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong and here's why."
That's a constructive response.

A non-constructive response is to think that because you had an emotional reaction to something then you don't own that emotion. The person who wrote something that caused you to have an emotion that you didn't enjoy must make some sort of restitution for your temporary lack of emotional well-being.
This sort of thinking leads us nowhere.

Please, please, please don't bring the bad habits of TOP with you.

C99P is not a"safe space". People here might say something that you don't agree with.
What's more, they might even be wrong (gasp).
It's a big reason why many of us left TOP. You can be wrong on C99P without the public shaming (within limits, of course).

Has anyone else been wrong online?

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Deja's picture

I agree with everything else, even though I no longer go over there to TOP.

Just curious about what in the essay you disagree with.

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essay. This was a great response from a great writer. I always enjoy this writer's work.

My disagreement with the original essay is that I'm quite certain that one of two things will happen. She will either be indicted by DOJ, and that will occur before the end of July, or Comey will resign as FBI Director and the FBI recommendation to indict will be leaked (but this will happen after the end of July, and it will doom us all).

The Democratic Party has one of two choices. Either force Hillary out now while the power still rests with the DNC and the Convention delegates, or lose the election to Trump.

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The beauty of modern man is not in the persons but in the
Disastrous rhythm, the heavy and mobile masses, the dance of the
Dream-led masses down the dark mountain.
- Robinson Jeffers, Rearmament

We are very lucky to have so much freedom to express ourselves. Ocassionally some of us push it pretty hard, and I just wanted to reinforce the fact that dailykos' community standards are asolutely not ours. Like you, I wish the dailykos essays and comments would be less. I am sure they lurk here and make hay with them back at the ranch.

I absolutely agree with you that the FOIA violations will end up nowhere. I am hopeful the FBI criminal investigation will at a minimum cost her the nomination. It may be wishful thinking, but it is all I have. I am sorry that poster got so emotional in his/her response to you.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Hillbilly Dem's picture

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"Just call me Hillbilly Dem(exit)."
-H/T to Wavey Davey

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

When those 700 people went out to Zuccotti Park with their bedrolls, I said "I give 'em 3 weeks!"

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

PriceRip's picture

Personally, I'm never ever wrong.

          you are, above all, Mr. Universe.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

I only wish I had 1/10 his computing skills.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Roger Fox's picture

Watched the live stream that evening.

I thought, thats really cool, but it'll never last. By mid october I was organizing food deliverys on fridays from NJ. I helped hand out 5700 meals at Zucotti Park that Thanksgiving.

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FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

May I be wrong a lot more.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

mhagle's picture

. . . and enjoyed reading the comments too.

I hope the dude is right who is convinced that HRC will be indicted. But your view is important too. It might go down one way and it might go down the other way.

All part of the discussion.

I always enjoy reading your essays!

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Marilyn

"Make dirt, not war." eyo

Big Al's picture

I can attest to the fact that you practice what you preach.
You know, if someone is never wrong, they are never really right.

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Hillbilly Dem's picture

"He's not always right, but he's never in doubt."

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"Just call me Hillbilly Dem(exit)."
-H/T to Wavey Davey

If people only want to hear likeminded views, their perspectives will never grow. If your point of view is constantly reinforced, never challenged, and you're not exposed to anything else, why would you ever engage in self-reflection and interrogate your own ideological assumptions?

That's my main issue with the idea of a "safe space." It's predicated on the idea that the people in said space have been persecuted or victimized, and therefore need a place to talk to one another and build up their confidence and identities before they can go out and interact with others.

The problem is that people never leave these "safe spaces" because they're too comfortable. Sure, it's good to know that others share your views, but if that's all you're getting 24/7, what's the point? It's a closed circuit. Personally, I want to know what others think and feel, even if I disagree with it. If you truly want to have a vibrant community, a diversity of opinions need to be accepted, even if it shakes up the apple cart every now and then. That's why this place is great. The point is to engage in debate, spark intellectual curiosity, challenge one another, and grow as a result.

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shaharazade's picture

starts shouting at me with caps about how wrong I am regarding an issue or an opinion it tends to make me lose it. I one time got into a loud and heated argument with a Libertarian who wanted me to sign a ballot measure petition for recalling our then governor and replacing him with a Libertarian. Our argument was not about the governor but about Libertarian's vs Liberal's.

This was on the side walk in front of Powell's bookstore. A bystander said I think you two are in closer agreement then you realize. You both seem to agree that the governor is a crooked Democrat posing as a liberal. That stopped us both cold. This was before I could even operate a computer. Maybe we are we both thought.

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mjsmeme's picture

Wink

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and making mistakes is the only way to learn something in my opinion. But then,of course, there are some people who never learn a thing no matter how wrong they are. I stay far away from them and TOP.
I came here just a couple of days ago...or so I thought. When I tried to sign up the box told me my account already exists.I have no idea when I signed up. Why is the twilight theme playing in my head?
Should I be worried??

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" El pueblo unido jamás será vencido. The people united will never be defeated "

riverlover's picture

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

Deja's picture

I only see 1 mint julep here. Are you referring to a different user ID you tried to sign up with? Or, are you joking and I missed yet another joke today?

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I signed up with my TOP id and was told it already exists and I have no idea when i signed up. I have to admit I'm no spring chicken,but haven't had trouble with my memory yet. Maybe this is how it starts....:)

BTW I love your chicken and I love our new Governor He brought 16 chickens to the mansion. Some people were not amused.He's such a breath of fresh air.

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" El pueblo unido jamás será vencido. The people united will never be defeated "

Deja's picture

Tell them your DK user ID, and email address. Tell them about not recalling signing up. It might be that you actually don't recall doing it, but it might be that someone else signed up using your DK ID. (That happened to me once, years ago on a site worlds away from this one associated in a way with another site - just like here, but they actually impersonated me - not in a nice way either!)

Knowing what happened to me, I got a bit of a creepy feeling when I first looked at the user list here.

Oh, before you contact them, is there a "I forgot my password" link? Try that for your DK ID. If it doesn't show up in your email (spam included), contact them.

Fwiw, I haven't seen evidence of anyone impersonating anyone here. One can hope it never happens!

Edit: Thank you! I didn't know anything about chickens at a governor's mansion. That must be a hoot!

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I don't think I got hijacked. I checked the memberlist and i signed up on 3/15/16 4:22 am, I remember I Dark night indeed.was in a bad place then. Right around my grandson's first birthday. My hours were cut I had no $ to buy him anything. I'm much better now.

I love the Gov's chickens. He must've gotten special permission to keep so many,cause I, as a poor mortal only allowed 4 within the city limits. I'm not jealous, he deserves his chickens and fresh eggs.

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" El pueblo unido jamás será vencido. The people united will never be defeated "

you've logged in with the mint julep username and also know the password for that account so I'm confused as to how you are posting here if you didn't join with this account. Did you originally register with a different username. If you need any help let me know and we'll straighten this out.

JtC

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elenacarlena's picture

and password? I used the same here as there.

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sure, but they would need to know that you are also a member here, but if they know that, sure they could log in here too. Making even a minor change in your password would help with that,

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elenacarlena's picture

with mint julep initially, that could explain why when s/he signed on now, s/he had the "correct" name and password.

How does one change one's password around here, anyway? I'm not seeing it as an option under my account.

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a logical explanation for what happened to mint julep is that he/she unknowingly clicked on the register button rather that the login button and when the username and password was typed in, it kicked it out that that username was already in use. That would explain it.

To change your password go to "My Account" and then click the "Edit" button and that will open your user account page where you can change a host of different settings including your password.

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elenacarlena's picture

draft diaries.

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Apparently I joined up back in March when my life was falling apart and TOP depressed me even more than usual.
It's all good now.

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" El pueblo unido jamás será vencido. The people united will never be defeated "

see my comment to elena right above this one that may explain what happened that it said your account was already in use.

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elenacarlena's picture

Nothing to worry about!

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elenacarlena's picture

I of course am never wrong.

And of course anyone who says that is wrong.

I tend not to apologize as much as I used to, however. Depending on the circumstances (and I'm not going to go back and look at the original controversy, I'll let that person have their anonymity), demands for apology often seem close to bullying.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

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mimi's picture

is getting hungry and needs a break. And I am not wrong about that !

So, JtC will give you us now the amount of prayers we have to do to be forgiven?

I just love this church. The Gods are merciful around here, all we need is a resident priest. And he/she will shrive you all of your sins. /s

Amen. Yes 3

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elenacarlena's picture

Shake things up a bit.

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shaharazade's picture

It seems to me it's a blog that is really trying hard to be a place to gather without the rancor, propaganda and authoritarianism that the so called 'progressive' blogs are wallowing in. Kind of interesting to see how they run. The breakdown seems to me to coincide with the so called net based progressives side of the Democratic party.

There are no god's in politics regardless of what Lloyd Blankfein claims. They are not doing god's work here on earth they represent the other side the one we should all askew . I don't mean the republicans but the ever present priests that through out history have brought human misery to a fine art.

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mimi's picture

apologize. I am sorry. I didn't mean to ridicule or be condescending to this blog or essay or commentators. It's just the way I survive my evening doing "silly jokes".

This blog seems very much to be that "place without rancor, propaganda and authoritarianism". And there are many brave moderators to keep it that way.

I guess I need to stop talking for this evening. My words don't cross over as what I hoped they would. So, everyone, who felt offended, I apologize.

I fully understand your comment and agree with what you say. For me that is an understanding that comes by default. I thought about the Gods of C99p jokingly, not Frankenstein Blankfein Gods.

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Deja's picture

Some of us can't hear the sarcasm or snark online. Me included! I heard the joking tone on this one, though.

*clink* Wink

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mimi's picture

to use the /s tag. I am sorry for that.

I also would need more of those in some comments I read here. I would misunderstand less of the comments that way. Especially if the comments refer to cultural things that I don't know anything about.

Clarification: This is no snark and no joke and very serious ... (/s)

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Bisbonian's picture

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

mimi's picture

for 34 years with no English speaking family member, no English speaking American employer and am not gone through substantive class work on an American University and thusly lived quite an isolated life here among other language speakers. In hindsight I am myself amazed how that could have happened. It could be a DC "feature" for "accompanying immigrating spouses" to other non-Americans. My former husband had as little English before coming to the US, but he worked exclusively with Americans or other English speakers, so his English was very good (spoke and written, he published). For me it was something else. I am not proud of that but that was just life. I came here to the US at age 34.

I know my English is lousy. I know how my German colleagues speak English, who are married with Americans and/or work with and for Americans for longer periods of times. My past life actually angers me quite a bit in that regard. But it's over and too late now.

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Deja's picture

I don't always hear the humor or snark from Americans with English (cough) as their first language. By the way (btw), that cough was a dig at Americans and our "English."

I also never know where to put the punctuation when a quotation ends the sentence. Too long ago that lesson.

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elenacarlena's picture

outside quotes in Britain, so do what you like online with a diverse audience. All other punctuation outside quotation marks unless it's part of what is being quoted. For example:

He yelled, "Watch out!"
I can't believe he said, "I never know where to put the punctuation"! Wink

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shaharazade's picture

I must have lost my mind and sense of humor due to CAPS LOCK'S DEMANDING APOLOGY. What are words worth? Yours are worth a lot. As my oldest friend used to say' fuck them if they can't take a joke.' so fuck me it flew right above my head which was not working to well.

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mimi's picture

Why is it that a person, who is communicating online with another anonymous person, makes up in her/his mind an image of that unknown person, which includes the gender, may be the age, may be the ethnicity, but most importantly the gender?

Why is the brain doing that? I always hate it when I thought of someone being a man and then it is revealed it is a woman or vice versa. And I ask myself on what basis I was making up that person's gender in my mind. I realize that my mind does it automatically without thinking. Why is that?

Is there a word for it in psychology or whatever science might be related to that question?

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shaharazade's picture

who I like, respect and are smart but have a user name that's non gender specific are women. Cassiodorus, ek, hecate, to name a few here and many others at dkos. I was shocked when I found out they were men. I even imagined what they looked like. Am I sexist?

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mimi's picture

a lot of people I like and thought of being men, turn out to be women. Worst of all, afterwards I forget what they were, because there are too many and all of it is just starts spinning in my head. Smile

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jorogo's picture

That abusive comment(er) seemed to turn a common phrase around – You’re entitled to your own facts, but not to your own opinion.

Both your post and the response you’ve referred to cited useful information, just came to very different conclusions. It could have been a very useful thought experiment, except for the responder’s tone being personally offensive, then when called out, going on to being personally defensive.

But to answer your closing question, yes. Embarrassingly so. Days before Scott Walker’s recall vote, a story was posted in a Wisconsin op-ed blogsite claiming that Walker had fathered a child outside his marriage, and covered it up. The story posted no author identity, not even a user name, just said it was published by the blog managers. The story even hit TOP. A blogger there and I both tried to stamp the fire out, as the story appeared to be a cheap shot, and could help turn opinion against the recall.

In the process, I got into an online argument with the proprietor of a Wisconsin blogsite which was prominent in the recall community, for having cross-posted the unsourced story. In that exchange, it looked to me like my comments were being removed, when in fact my computer was so jammed with multi-tasking that it wasn’t refreshing pages properly. So I made the accusation that I was being blacklisted at the site….wrong!

The TOP poster managed to reach a well-respected Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reporter who had been cited in the unsourced op-ed, and he put the matter to rest as total hokum. TOP removed their cross-post. The blog I got into it with moved their cross-post off its front page. I posted apologies for my accusation both at another story about the whole mess at TOP and at the “accused” site. The originator never removed its cheap shot fabrication, and it was cited in MSM as typical hysteria of the recall mentality. The recall, as you know, for multiple reasons, failed.

But where I was clearly wrong for having made a false accusation, you just speculated on what you thought would happen, or not. That’s part of what I look for and find is part of a learning process. You did no harm, and deserved no verbal retribution.

And BTW, one “safe space” I do wish for, is a place where emoticons (I’m refusing to update the word for something that just creeps me out anyhow, with a word that’s even creepier), rather than people, are banned. For now I just quickly scroll past until the annoying little distractions are off screen.

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"If I sit silently, I have sinned." - Mossadegh

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