TOP Crashing Into Reality's Gates

There is an amusing discussion over at TOP (will not link) about whether the internet volume there has declined. The free internet volume data source, Quantcast, shows a decline of 44% in unique views in the last 90 days, with a pronounced decline after the edict.

Plus you probably received a begging letter from the owner. I think his name is Ozymandias.

Good. The more here the merrier. When I heard (here!) that he was skimming off Bernie contributions made through his site, I just about puked.

Talk about the law of karma....

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mouselander's picture

You really should not disrespect Ozymandias, which is the Greek name for the Egyptian pharaoh better known in the English-speaking world as Ramses II, by comparing him to a miserable, no account little piss-ant like Markos Moulitsas.

From Wikipedia:

Ramesses II (variously transliterated as "Rameses" (/ˈræməsiːz/)[5] or "Ramses" (/ˈræmsiːz/ or /ˈræmziːz/);[6] born c. 1303 BC; died July or August 1213 BC; reigned 1279–1213 BC), also known as Ramesses the Great, was the third pharaoh of the Nineteenth Dynasty of Egypt. He is often regarded as the greatest, most celebrated, and most powerful pharaoh of the Egyptian Empire.[7] His successors and later Egyptians called him the "Great Ancestor". Ramesses II led several military expeditions into the Levant, reasserting Egyptian control over Canaan. He also led expeditions to the south, into Nubia, commemorated in inscriptions at Beit el-Wali and Gerf Hussein.

While certainly not an admirable character by modern standards, Ramesses II nevertheless succeeded in taking Egypt to unprecedented heights of power and influence as the most important and formidable nation-state of its time. Considering the constraints and realities of the world he lived in, I doubt Ramesses could have been a better or more effective ruler than what he in fact was. To compare him even jokingly with such a complete non-entity as Kos truly is an insult to his memory. The inscription on one of his sculptures, paraphrased in Shelley's famous poem, reads literally: "King of Kings am I, Osymandias. If anyone would know how great I am and where I lie, let him surpass one of my works." Is there anyone alive today who can truly answer that challenge? I suspect there are probably several billion individuals out there whose credentials would be more convincing than those of Mr. Moulitsas.

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inactive account

tapu dali's picture

Userma'atre (Powerful is the truth of Re)
Setepenre (Chosen of Re)
Ramessu (Re has given him birth)
Meryamun (Beloved of Amun).

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There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know.

The point, of course, is that the verse is "I am Ozymandias, king of kings:/Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!/Nothing beside remains. Round the decay/Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare/The lone and level sands stretch far away."

Daily Kos is going to decline eventually. The only questions are when and why.

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tapu dali's picture

Just 20 years after Shelley's poem, Sir Henry Rawlinson managed to copy and translate the Behistun (Bagastana: the place of the gods) inscription, featuring these eerily reminiscent words of King Daaryavaush (Darius I):

[Adam] Daaryavaush xsayathiya / [I am] Darius the King
Vazrka xsayathiya / The great King
Xsayathianam xsayathiya / King of kings
Parsyanam xsayathiya / King of the Persians
Dahnuyanam xsayathiya / King of [all] the lands

... ...

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There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know.

thanatokephaloides's picture

The comparison isn't to the living Ramses II, but to the one described below:

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
And on the pedestal these words appear:
'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away."

-- Percy Bysshe Shelley source

note: Emphasis on "colossal wreck"...

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

Smile

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

The begging for money. Stupid. I am banned over there. So I responded with something snide about maybe Kos hitting up Hillary for more money, since it's become nothing but a Hillary shill site anyway.

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If you don't know what you want, you deserve what you get.

elenacarlena's picture

That's funny. You should tell them to send you snail mail. Make them spend more money on you.

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Sandino's picture

for contributions? It would be fun is a $0.27 donation cost $1.10 to process. It could even get me to contribute... a couple times.

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Why was it necessary for Markos to destroy the site? What did he promise the person who bought his piece of VOX that required him to pick HRC as winner, and turn away anyone not supporting her? It seems all was planned for a long time. DK5, with the hidden flagging, adds to the frustration. Did that purposely coincide with the edict?

ORRRRRRR--- did he make enough money from the sale so he doesn't need the site's income?

ORRRRRRR---By suggesting a theme for future diaries (stories?????), is he suggesting that that's the direction he wants the site to go?

Someone talk me down and convince me that knowing these answers isn't important. I haven't been a participant for awhile, and I'm still just as feisty as I was. So I guess all is okay.

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contained a comment with this link

http://truth-about-kos.blogspot.com/2007/08/indictment-of-markos-ca-moul...

Reading it might help answer your questions.

As I learned during thirty years of marriage, I don't care about the motivation any more, the bad behavior just has to stop. It didn't and I'm divorced now.

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Yahoo

snoopydawg's picture

I googled Markos a few days ago to see what hits would come up and there was one about his family in San Salvador (?) that said it's very rich. Remember the nephew fundraiser diary where he asked for funds to get him to the US?
I think this is interesting.
There's more fun stuff on that site.

). Markos C.A. Moulitsas ZÚÑIGA was a Ronald Reagan Republican, taking credit for supporting Ronald Reagan, campaigning for George. H.W. Bush, and for Republican Representative Henry Hyde, the House prosecutor in the Clinton impeachment hearings.

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

kos' venom toward Bernie more understandable, imho. But hell, I didn't support right-wing death squad thugs in the 80s and I don't support them now.

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Yahoo

I spent half the 80's in CA. I could always smell these bastards a mile away.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

I remember in the 80s we ran afoul of a RW Cuban organization whose name I seem to be blocking from memory. They burst into our meeting in a Catholic church in Gainesville, shouted "Comunista" at us and left us a note saying that if the church continued to support us it would be considered a target.

It didn't come to anything, but if the church had been in Miami rather than Gainesville, I would have been much more seriously worried.

Oh, hey, the name just came back to me: Omega 7. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_7

Small, but dangerous, and not to be underestimated.
Apparently now defunct.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

really understand that death squads are holding up your philosophy.
It's another if you are politically awake and aware and choose that path.
It's pretty obvious that Markos, whatever he is, is not politically asleep.
And yeah--wealthy guy from a wealthy Salvadoran family whom the CIA "tried" to recruit?

Um.....

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Raggedy Ann's picture

He's a fkn zillionaire - pay for it yourself, Zuniga! Nea

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

That pitch was weird.

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Orwell was an optimist

The layout of that site is an seizure waiting to happen.

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Grannus's picture

until I got to the bottom and saw it was put together by Francis Holland. I rank him up there with Orly Taitz as a credible source.

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elenacarlena's picture

paid off by the Hillary campaign. He is making enough money from that source that he does not need the site's income any more. No proof, but that's my hypothesis; and it happened just after he retooled the site for better participation.

First he attracts more viewers. Then he tells everybody to go away. Something happened in between those two acts.

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He still believes you are all coming back. Build it here. I don't understand so many are still focused over there. Why continue posting diaries about Dkos? It keeps you connected. Cut the ties. There is so much smarts, good writing and passion right here.

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Mister Pants's picture

But only after Hillary is forced out of the race after being indicted, and Bernie rides in to win the nomination and Presidency. And only to spike the ball in a few extremely deserving faces.

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lunachickie's picture

if truth be known, that's been in the back of my mind, too. That's one that'll feel pretty good.

"Closure", if you will...

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TheJerry's picture

Only do it short term to gloat and heckle and snicker at how wrong he and his minions were.

Do that, get it out of your system and come back here.

There is no point to living in a burned and gutted castle...leave it for the ghosts and the specters of stupidity of selling out.

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____________________________________________________________________________
"I'm not interested in preserving the status quo; I want to overthrow it. "
-Niccolo Machiavelli

"Sorry Hillary"
-TheJerry

lunachickie's picture

it's pretty much my MO, I split between this site and my own social media--I only go over there to rec the Bernie News Roundup and take a look-see at The Spin Du-Jour (which is sometimes quite illuminating). Long as I stop before reading any comments, I can get away unscathed.

It's like a trainwreck, sometimes you just have to go look from time to time...

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riverlover's picture

can ever be regained. I lost respect for handles there when the sniping began. They are not our friends, even in virtual world. No doubt the feeling is mutual, except they think that we will swallow and come back.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

Cassiodorus's picture

it's not worth it.

I do plan on going back!

Don't bother. When dissent is treason, none of your literary bona fides matter. Build the political revolution -- that's what matters.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

It is surprisingly difficult to not go look at what is happening over there, but every time I do, I feel depressed and alienated. Right now I have almost weaned myself off of the site, but the whole thing still breaks my heart.

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elenacarlena's picture

gradually picking up other sites and things to do. It will end organically, as it began.

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Raggedy Ann's picture

I'm over there only once a day unless I need to make a bit of mischief. Mischief only crawls into my space once a week or so, though. I'm getting farther and farther away from there. It feels good!

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

elenacarlena's picture

where we don't fight all day. We can hop over there when we feel like fighting, then hop back here. I feel like it will all work out.

There are some times I may want a bigger group for some purpose, so I'll go over there. But this is my pleasant space. As this space grows, that one will shrink.

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LinQness's picture

I posted a lot & had a nice circle of fellow commenters. Once they took away community moderation & switched to FB I left but it was difficult.

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"Politics is not evil; politics is the human race's most magnificent achievement." Senator Tom Fries, 'Podkayne of Mars,' Robert Heinlein

mostly on Saturdays to check out Animal Nuz. Made it harder to do so by changing my Firefox settings to give me a blank page on new tab instead of my top sites (which was including That Place). I may end up going back, because there are people I miss. But I know that it's not the progressive site that it proclaims itself as being -- and that knowledge will help me read what's posted with a slightly more jaundiced and critical eye.

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lunachickie's picture

It is fun to tear down someone that's been tearing you down bit by bit for years, when you chose to go to him and you let him do it.

I go back and forth with this, as an internal battle. It's a co-dependency that I have to deal with. I know that place is bad for me, but it pulls me back from time to time.

It's why I make those remarks about "feeling like a lab rat" during my tenure there, from time to time. (sigh) it's hard to explain...

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wilderness voice's picture

I succumb from time to time. Just need to give oneself time to break the habit & stop looking for love, or even decency, in the wrong place.

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TheOtherMaven's picture

At least, there's a robed figure going around calling himself "Oz" or "Mr. Oz", and claiming to know everything about everything. (DC Comics: Rebirth #1) Whether he is the same person as the Watchman who used that cognomen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozymandias_%28comics%29 is thus far unknown.

It is known that Doctor Manhattan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Manhattan is getting the blame for the "darkening" and joylessness of the New DCU.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

featheredsprite's picture

is a wonderful thing. Used it right away and the sun still comes up every morning.

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Life is strong. I'm weak, but Life is strong.

Big Al's picture

What I've felt for along time is the democratic party is too big of a tent to make work. If people like the little CIA dude are democrats, and there are a lot like him, then how can those on the leftier side of the equation ever coexist in the same political party with them? It's really no different than trying to coexist in the Republican party.
It's either emphasis on more political parties or a new political system. It can't work this way.

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gulfgal98's picture

IMHO is the only way to escape the entrenchment of the current two party system. I am just not sure what it would be, but I like the idea of proportional representation instead of winner take all.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

pfiore8's picture

one component of that new system would be an easier way to recall those you've elected; open primaries, and all citizens are automatically registered to vote in national elections and, in local/regional, just bring a recent bill with your address on it. If you want voter IDs, then the state pays for it.

another would be changing the language of politics: no more winning. no more power. no more special interest. it should be elected to office, to service.

and more political parties while maintaining citizen activist groups, like #BLM and OCCUPY. the new lobby as it were.

couldn't agree more...

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“There are moments which are not calculable, and cannot be assessed in words; they live on in the solution of memory… ”
― Lawrence Durrell, "Justine"

traffic.PNG

It's not a dramatic decline, but it is noticeable. And the March 15 spike is a dead giveaway.

That traffic is declining during a highly contested primary is ominous...for DKos.

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When he wrote that piece for The Hill this week. I made the comment over at K4B after it came out about the views going down. I took a look at quantcast and went back to Dec, 2014 to find the same level of views on the week end. The low points is what gives away the decline. Viewership on the weekends are lower then during the week. That is when mostly the daily followers that participate show up. The week days are board people at work checking out news and people waiting for appointments with their phones. I thought his drop looked about a 30% loss but I am not surprised that it is higher. The peaks in the last month has been when Brock pr push was going on and the media was parroting his talking points. All the flying monkeys was out in force during those peaks. The highest peak was the trashing of NV delegates that supported Sanders.

Markos has operating costs to cover and that was what we helped him with. I don't think he is much of a bright man even if he is a left gate keeper hearding lefties to control propaganda. His writing skills are at a 8th grade level at best. I had trouble following his train of thought on the Hill piece because he was all over the place. He really has no clue how the country feels about things and how large of group that is now hurting. We are experiencing a generational change in politics and that group isn't going to read his site. If Hillary can't pull off the nomination for the establishment, then all those sock puppets will be useless. His lurkers and casual readers have also moved on because of all the nastiness. Normal people don't take time to read crappy mean comments from crazy people.

I find this interesting watching the graft on a weekly bases because it shows when the propaganda is being pushed from the Hillary camp. The actual primaries returns are not being followed as close as they started out because he has lost a chunk of this base that has moved on to friendlier and more informed sites to follow the outcomes of the elections. I tried to join in when the first primaries started but left in frustration over DK5 and Hillary trolls. I quickly moved on to TYT and then later to here after the first week of March. All I was doing was lurking.

I guess we will continue to watch his numbers go down because I think he peaked with Hillary and it is down hill from here on.

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people don't take time to read crappy mean comments from crazy people.

The toxicity of what he is creating also drives folks away.

Kos whips up Bernie hate and Clinton supporters form a mob. Regular, normal folks have better things to do.

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riverlover's picture

is full of Bernie crowd telling it like it is. Mostly politely. And why no one can make sense of Moulitsas unless it's money or title. I looked for a bit, then dropped out. Still NR over there, removed my email addy from my profile.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

elenacarlena's picture

Once I start reading something, I almost always read the comments, good and bad. Pardon

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Ravensword's picture

Did they stop coming onto TOP?

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lunachickie's picture

so if the 44 staff members are all using Buzzbundle (or another software suite like it, there are a number of them), then no matter how many personas they're managing, they still only count for 44 people.

If you read there long enough, and look at it through that prism, suddenly, there aren't as many trolls as you thought there were. Heh.

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Worthy .... The diary was about how the person is a 13 year old HRC supporter lol

When one checked the profile of this diarist you learn this person was also 13 over a year ago lol. AND people starting posting this persons other social media presence which clearly showed a professional "blogger" who was NOT 13 (smile)

This person was recced and vehemently defended on top.

lord what fools these HRC supporters on TOP be.

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Orwell was an optimist

snoopydawg's picture

Why the site's views are going down and its losing money.
There's a diary there about Bernie and Trump debating and people in are calling Bernie all kinds of heinous names.
Prick, asshole, dickhead to name a few.
We know that if anyone wrote that about Hillary, the flags would be flying and people would be getting banned.
I don't like Hillary or her policies, but I wouldn't feel the need to call her derogatory names.
As people have written, Kos has a lot of money, he can fund his his own damn site

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

MarilynW's picture

"who cares about polls?!"
"Do you really care who your barber, your grocer, your mailman vote for?"

She was talking about where the political million$ are spent.

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To thine own self be true.

k9disc's picture

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“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu

Trying to bring more Clinton supporters and get Bernie supporters to write counter-posts.

He did it himself. People are leaving TOP.

The red baiting is creating a new flow of refugees. Valtin GBCWed yesterday in a rec list post -- almost 500 recs. Saw it when I went by to rec BNR.

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Of brand new users posting "don't let the door hit you..." And worse. Saw a few long time users go off on these newbies, asking how many informative diaries have you posted on DK"

That is exactly the point... for ME, most of the people I respect and regularly read have left DK and now post elsewhere... Many of you post here on C99. so if I DO GO TO TOP it's because I am bored and into reading idiots talking to eCh other about idiotic idiocy... Endlessly

I do feel sad about MB... He is a paid FPer so I understand why he stays... But I have kind of stopped reading and reccing his diaries... Just can't anymore.

I DO READ AND REC THE BNR and will continue to do that until such time as the BNR,is told to go away ... I expect that to happen on the great media coordinated ITS,OVER HRC WON June 7 (at 5pm). Invasion of the INNERTUBES and your corp owned TeeVee news.

and yesterday was banner day for that LOL with idiot after idiot swearing undying loyalty (Zander their first born kids) to KOS ... Was like watching a bad tee vee sitcom that won't be picked up for another season

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Orwell was an optimist

gulfgal98's picture

and to Bill Moyers show exactly how tribal and ignorant so many people over there are.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Attacking Moyers. Just amazing.

The twilight if the faux progressive blog.

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Cassiodorus's picture

It's depressing how many people still go there. Ideal world is Markos talking to himself, alone.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

sensetolisten's picture

KOS: Ultimately, this site still gets more traffic than PBS, CBS News, WSJ.com, etc. If that’s supposed to make me sad,

Ahhhh.... yeah, but dude, those are sites whose primary source of business is NOT their website. DUH!!!!!!

lol .... Markos is an idiot. He just destroyed his business. I spent some time today studying those metrics, as someone who has a professional background in DataBase Marketing, and those metrics are devastatingly bad, 3 different ways. First of all, those drops in spikes are leading indicator. Second of all, the historical trends during the most heated period in the Democratic Primary season should be dramatically climbing, not dramatically falling. Markos can delude himself by claiming that the primary was "over" on March 15th, but everyone knows that the ONLY thing that occurred on March 15th was Markos IDES OF MARCH edict. And third of all, once the Democratic Primary really is over, the remaining Bernie supporters who still do visit there solely to support LieparDestin and the other remaining diarists promoting Bernie will immediate leave.

I will give it 3 to 6 months before Markos starts laying off staff, probably much sooner, and once that happens, he won't be able to hide his mistake and keep face, which will precipitate an even more dramatic downward spiral .... because he will have no content, hell, once the remaining Bernie supporters stop posting there, he will have no quality content anyway. Hell, Caucus99 has already taken almost all of the quality writers, and the rest are soon to follow. You see, the other metric, as a "leading indicator" of this political website business model, even more important than the readership, is the writers. The writers are the content providers. Markos has been losing the best writers in droves over the past 3 months since his IDES OF MARCH edict. That site is already dead, all that is left is a farce of a gesture that remains solely as a vestige to help Bernie by maintaining a marginal presence and narrative there. However, the most critical social media political discourse during this season has been occurring on FaceBook. TOP is nothing but an echo chamber and is considered a joke on FaceBook these days. Have any of your perused the comments on FaceBook for Markos' diaries. He gets destroyed. It is rather pathetic, actually. I didn't even have the strength to give him a piece of my mind, lol ... it was hardly needed, as there were more than enough ripping him apart. It was not pretty. And guess what? No one who ripped into him got a HR FLAG!!! HAHAHAHA!

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“I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was hell.”
― Harry Truman
MarilynW's picture

Seen them being rude to customers, customers who will never return. I've worked for people like that. Self-destructing business people. It defies reason.

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To thine own self be true.

I used to get several shares from DK every day on my home feed. That has dropped off this month. People are not sharing the crap. People really rip into DK and I find some of it really funny. I don't follow DK FB page anymore. I just look at the metrics out of curiosity.

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Cassiodorus's picture

Here where I live we had some nice Asian money move in and buy up a local bakery. It's now merely a restaurant, a restaurant not offering anything worth buying, with an owner not worth talking to. But none of this is of any consequence, because the owner's fortune was made in Korea, and that's that.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

Eyes the. PBS these days lol

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Orwell was an optimist

mimi's picture

I just decided to only donate to people directly, and only in my neighborhood, and only to the homeless. No middle man. I am a little low right now, but you could donate a little bit, no? I hope dailykos can pay the salaries for their employees. I found that in my junk folder.

xxxxxx, I'm writing today because we're short.

Daily Kos is $63,252 away from where we expected to be to close out the month and, with the holiday weekend coming up, time is running out.

Can you chip in $5 to keep Daily Kos fighting?

We're putting together our biggest election year program ever to stop Trump and take back the Senate and, less than six months out from the election, we need the resources now to pull it off.

Community support—that is, contributions from readers like you—makes up one-third of our revenue. It helps make Daily Kos accountable to our readership, but most readers don't contribute until later in the year, when the election is right around the corner.

But we need the resources now to get our Get Out The Vote programs running. So, please chip in if you can.

Keep fighting,
Michael Langenmayr, Daily Kos

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mimi's picture

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riverlover's picture

Touching tongue-in-cheek. Wink

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

That seems to be the logical outcome of their hate-filled rhetoric.

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Love is my religion.

PastorAgnostic's picture

I just posted there for the first time in months, in response to a plea for donations

"Seriesly?"

You want me to send my money here?
Seriesly?

Heh. The first response was I should use a spell checker.

Seriously.

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PastorAgnostic's picture

Sarcastic post there, laughing at the request for money. And I started off with "seriesly"

One person told me to use a spell checker, another told me to drop dead. But one sounded just like KOS, using another name.

Then the penny struck. What if GOS was all a CIA plot, to infiltrate liberals and trying to seek out plot makers? What if the idea of March edict was an attempt to get people to act badly and then be legally charged for those acts? Several of our Intel legs have often used false fronts. Police, FBI, and others have infiltrated anti war groups repeatedly, even regularly. (They are spotted when they try to foment violence . . . In others)

What if that place was nothing but a con job, a honey trap, an effort to discredit liberals in the long term?

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NCTim's picture

fuckoffmoneygrubbingasshole.

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The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. - Friedrich Nietzsche -

PastorAgnostic's picture

Doh.

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mimi's picture

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