This is so exciting!
Good people are drifting in…let’s bring the member list to 10,000 soon! How can we make it more exciting? I know…let’s release our resident troll! Everybody loves a good fight! He can say something really negative to set the bait...something like calling Bernie Sanders a vile name. Big Troll loves to call people "pig". That ought to get their attention. Big Troll can use the MSM tactic of quoting another source who quoted Bernie ENTIRELY out of context. He can quote some fringe blogger- rw, leftie, don't matter. That'll get em and that way he won't have to do the hard work of making sure that what he is claiming is actually true (way better if it isn't and everybody knows it).
Then we can switch to "war is hell", and "imperialists are bad" and THEN get into purity of essence. Let's see if we can all get the knee-jerk bleeding hearts to bleed all over Bernie! That will be truly progressive and oh! so productive. We will demand purity of essence from Bernie and when he fails we can blame him for every war since Crimea and THEN we can blame him for the way we treated the Native Americans, the Japanese Americans, slavery, the Hay Market Massacre, Bloody Sunday and for syphilis, typhoid, neoliberalism, gonorrhea, polio, but not AIDS because that's on Reagan. Bet that they totally forget that they are saying all this under the banner: Bernie Sanders is a Pig!
SOMEBODY'S bound to react with another essay either defending Bernie Sanders or calling out the Big Troll or calling us out for standing around laffing and dissembling and yawning while Big Troll does his thing . Then we can ridicule them for being narrow minded, whitesplaining, thin skinned and BEST OF ALL whiningly impure! What a wonderful way to attract new members...good, pure, morally superior ones that will join us in beating the shit out of anyone that dares to respond to the Big Troll. If they won't join in, we could just use our insider imperialistic influence to get the dumb bastard banned (this works really well, as we know).
We can always argue that, after all, Big Troll isn't being a dick (that is against the rules), he's being a troll...he is being OUR troll. Then he can do it again! With any luck and enough dumb bastards we can keep this going for months. All in the name of free and open intellectual discourse. We should get to 10,000 good, pure, morally superior members in no time. And then we can get rid of these other assholes that were too cowardly to speak up. God, life is good!
Comments
That sounds exciting!
But honestly, I think you're confusing people supporting Al with people endorsing his perspective. I hope that what you're describing doesn't happen.
Still, it's hard to read this and view it as constructive.
prog - weirdo | dog - woof
I see it as constructive:
As a summery of the escalation when you have no control over your feed, this rant is spot on, IMHO. As a SysAdmin I would be looking for a way to provide each user the tools to control the flow of information to their devices. With control comes the ability to think rationally, just ask my autistic friends, fuck that: Let's cut to the chase, just ask me.
Or we could ignore Big Al
My strategy in the UseNet days was to acknowledge, engage, evaluate, then (if needed) edit my kill file. Simple, ignore said troll (by never seeing anything they post) and they evaporate, disappear, fadeaway. No fuss, no muss.
Al is a good friend with passion and strong opinions,
often enough, controversial ones. The very last thing he is is a troll however. I'm hardly the civility police, but how does "troll" here advance any useful or interesting conversation?
Hillary Clinton 2016: I'm a proud progmoderate!
progdog: I am not confused in the least:
the "perspective" that you are alluding to is predicated upon name calling, trolling, and blaming. It has already happened. This essay may be viewed as constructive if it plays a part in it never happening again. I suppose from your comment that you view the essay that you are alluding to as "constructive".
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” Voltaire
Yes, you hit the nail on the head.
Sorry, I shouldnt have minced words
You seem really angry and I don't get it. Big Al didn't write an essay talking about the doom and gloom shit that you did, he wrote what he wanted to in a place where that's supposed to be okay. You're using the same privilege to fantasize about how horrible things are gonna get here because of his one diary.
Fuck you if you have a problem with people speaking their minds. If you were to write a diary about trolling and name calling that didn't come across to me as advocating censorship, because you were hurt by words on the Internet, you'd have my support. That's what I mean by constructive.
prog - weirdo | dog - woof
I do not have a problem with people speaking their minds.
I have defended their right to do so with my life. Writing " a diary about trolling and name calling that didn't come across to me as advocating censorship" would be disingenuous at best. I am addressing what happens on this site, not some theoretical hypothesis that may or may not ever happen. I was not hurt by the words, but by the intent, the tone, and the duplicity. Fuck you if you think that my action to defend your right and that other guy's right to speak your minds was imperialistic.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” Voltaire
and then we calmed down
are you saying there was something dishonest in Al's latest work?
It definitely had an Al style headline. I think the exact same diary would have been seen differently if it had been titled "While Bernie Has Excellent Ideas on Income Equality, His Foreign Policy Concerns Me".
But then, one of Al's points is that we need to avoid hero worship and focus on issues.
Shahryar: Don't know the person you are
referring to. Don't know his history or his "style headline". I do know a troll when I smell one. Your substitute title would not have smelled trollish to me. Why didn't he use it? You want calm: why didn't you speak up then?
So, this guy's method of "avoiding hero worship" is to dump a shitty name on the hero? Bernie Sanders has enough people feeding him shit 24/7 without the two of us standing by while we can do something about it.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” Voltaire
I haven't met him but I know him from being online
and I can tell you he is absolutely not a troll. It seems odd to me to be discussing it, but then if you haven't had discussions with him I guess I can see how it might have come across as "funny".
You know, the bots "over there" make a mistake by saying any criticizing of Hillary is "rightwing framing" when, of course, that's absurd. Well, similarly, I can see how, if you didn't know Al, that the criticism of Bernie could appear to be from a Hillary supporter who was trying to dampen enthusiasm for Bernie. Which is wildly off the mark! Al is criticizing Bernie from Bernie's left. Most of us are to Bernie's left. We can say "thank god he's running!" because he's so much better than Hillary.
In any case, that diary or any other criticism of Bernie is not going to have an effect on the remaining primaries. It's a discussion, here in our discussion group.
Okay, Shahryar, I'll take your word for it. People that act
like a troll are going to be reacted to as one. It was NOT just a literary device: I gave him a chance to take it back and he refused. That makes him a PROUD troll.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” Voltaire
It makes him a proud person
Who the hell are you to tell someone their opinion isn't allowed?
I respect him immensely for not bowing down to you.
prog - weirdo | dog - woof
progdog: I didn't tell anyone that their opinion isn't allowed.
If you actually read what I said, you will see that I invited him to help me support Bernie. I then gave him a choice; either take back his namecalling or lose my support. He demurred. I said "So be it. " and left. The need to interject power tripping where it doesn't exist is far more telling about the accuser than the target. I disrespect you completely for suggesting that any one here should bow down to anyone for any reason.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” Voltaire
If I didn’t know, I’d think it was Trump or someone saying this.
That’s how imperious it is.
lotlizard: my actual statement is right directly above your
reply. I did not say what is in your quote. Can't you even copy my statement and paste it?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” Voltaire
Now I know for sure you’re just playing games.
As I am certain you realize, the quote was copied and pasted from a comment you made — farther up. This one:
lotlizard, you are a wise kitty cat! (n/t)
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
:: loud purring noises :: n/t
I have no response:
the cat's got my tongue.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” Voltaire
lol - if the cat on the photo is your's, that's
one sweet, tender, big-eyed cat, ears all up, and questioning everything.
You see a lot.
A friend’s mom’s cat — alas, now jenseits der Rainbow Bridge.
If it’s possible for a cat to know too thoroughly what evil humans are capable of, that probably applied to Jip. As a kitten he was rescued from a war zone in ex-Yugoslavia. His human family had likely been executed by an ethnic-cleansing death squad.
So dignified and leonine in his affection was he, that I (anthropomorphic projection, to be sure) thought I sensed both graveness born of what he had experienced, and enduring gratitude for the new long life in a loving home he had been granted.
He especially hated fireworks. Every year he would spend all of “Oud en Nieuw” (Dutch for New Year’s Eve) holed up in the coat closet, where the many layers of heavy fabric provided acoustic dampening of the loud recurring sound of explosions.
*schnief*
evening thrownstone...
so, you say:
is your objection that somebody called bernie sanders (a public figure) a name? or is it that you feel that somebody maligned your participation in a military action?
look in the mirror
The goal of the site from my view is civil and provoking conversation...not growth. If we have progressive open conversations, I think traffic will grow. But from my view that isn't the goal.
Seems like this is a rant about another diary calling Bernie a pig? Well I call Hillary Killary, $hillary, and Hellery. That's the nice thing about this site you are free to speak freely. Watch Scahill take Bernie to task about his acceptance of drones on Democracy Now today. Listen the Pulitzer prize winner Seymour Hersh say Bernie's foreign policy is weak and naive.
Not looking a Bernie's faults is as bad as the DailyLost not allowing criticism of Hillary. Posting insinuations and bad vibes here seems weird.
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Lookout: That's what I am doing: speaking freely.
Do you not apply this observation to the essay to which you refer? If not, why not. The mirror is before you as well.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” Voltaire
Whoa!
Telling people who speak their minds that some other place might be a better venue for them is exactly the kind of bullshit I wanted to leave behind on DK. People there told me to leave because I don't like Hillary or I didn't support our covert war in Ukraine or I think GMOs need further study (I'm not "reality-based" apparently, because I believe corporations will lie, cheat and steal to make profits). So I really don't appreciate your comment telling this essayist to love it or leave it. That pig shouldn't fly here.
I agree
Retracted.
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Thank you. n/t
Hey, I am the scientist here
I am about as reality based as it gets, and I ain't buying the pro GMO hype hook line and sinker. I get real grief every time I try to speak out.
That first sentence of yours really speaks to the issue. In addition, I, too, have heard the "Love It or Leave It" line way too often in my life.
gotta say I cring a bit when I see folks say that kind of thing
While I am unsure of the number of professional scientists and/or PHD's here. I am certain that reality based, critical thinking folk are in some abundance. I'm not really sure who the 2nd smartest person here is but,
I know it's one of ya all.
Anyway, GMO's are bad if they produce no seed for next years crop. And of course if they are created with intent to harm.
For ages on end we have modified the genetics of the foods we eat by planting the favored seeds. So, one way is slower, one way is faster.
Neither process is inherently bad.
Though the dangers of corporation controlled seed and food stuffs for the world SHOULD be more than troubling to far more people.
There is also danger in GMO's from the purely non-corporate scientific world to consider. Malfeasance, error and unintended consequences being prominently among them.
Anyway, I'll talk GMO's with you. I'm not a professional scientist and quite honestly it's not a requirement, to know that the greatest most bountiful plants are only good for one harvest if they produce no seeds.
With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU
Well I know that I am not the smartest pup in the litter.
The issue is complicated on several levels. There is a good reason not to have this in some regions. I will soon be living in Medford, Oregon. It is in the Bear Creek branch of the Rogue River Valley structure. This is a somewhat (as in partially) biologically isolated region. I know of locals that are trying to raise heirloom cultivars. They do not want them contaminated. This is a serious issue if you are a biologist, but if you are into making money maybe it's not an issue.
Holy crap!
You moving into my Rogue Valley?!?
I do not live out in the country - I am a city boy. But I have been in the Rogue Valley for 20+ years, so if you want, PM me a quickie message and we may go from there.
The last time the GMO issue came up for vote, both Jackson and Josephine Counties voted for full GMO labeling with telling majorities. As I have mentioned elsewhere, these are rather conservative counties, but wineries, farms and ranching abounds, along with horse boarding and other related work.
If you like pizza, ask me for recommendations. If you like Chinese (American version, actually), let me know. If you like... you get the idea.
Score !!!
I am a small town boy (Hermiston in the 50s and 60s), a native, and we don't want to talk too loud, we are not supposed to let anyone from the outside find out how nice Oregon is in spite of the rampant conservatism. Nothing to see here, folks, nothing at all. We don't want to have the place run over with riff-raff after all.
Even though I live an "All Hat, no Horse" life, I identify as an Eastern Oregon Cowboy. I am looking forward to spending time in the mountains around the valley. I used to run Parkour in the Blue Mountains when I was young, and stupid.
I have been to Abby's at Barnett and Pacific Highway. We only went there because we wanted to score a clean pizza box to give to my daughter's friend, Abby. Let's plan to meet up when we get moved into our home. As for preference, I like the Canadian Bacon with Pineapple option, but what I would really like to find is a place that does a real (preferably Localvore) vegetarian pizza with high quality olive oil and no mystery additives.
Come visit Corvallis sometime
I'll treat you to American Dream!
prog - weirdo | dog - woof
Ah! Corn Valley
Sorry, old habit: For those that are not aware: Corvallis is the home to Oregon State University, it started as the Land Grant Agricultural College, hence the "corn" in the Willamette Valley hence "Corn Valley". Now it is a major University with some impressive stats. I have family to the North and family to the South, but none actually in Corvallis proper. We will run into each other however.
LOL! I may know what you are talking about pizza-wise...
Right now, I do not have menus off hand, and I cannot be sure about that Localvore thing, but I sure as heck can be sure about vegetarian pizzas.
So, top veggie pizzas can be found at Kaleidoscope Pizza on Highway 62 (Crater Lake Highway), next best is Jackson Creek (a couple of options but they look great) with three locations and after that is Great American Pizza Company (located in Ashland, good for lunch or lunch to go). Same for 'Hawaiian' (Canadian Bacon with Pineapples) pizzas - we call 'em Hawaiian in the Rogue Valley.
The staff at all these places would be more than happy to work with you as to olive oil and lack of alleged additives. All other pizza places are greasespots but they are rather popular in the Rogue Valley, unfortunately...
But I am going to leave you with links to pizzas and willingness to go to PM and private communication...
Kaleidoscope Pizza - http://kaleidoscopepizza.com (high class establishment, yup real high class)
Jackson Creek - http://jacksoncreekpizza.com (my personal fave)
Great American Pizza Company - http://greatamericanpizzacompany.com (looks like a family place, feels like it but the pizzas are actually good along with great salads)
Yes, we can meet up just fine - let me know when you are all settled. Word to wise - not because of the climate crisis, but because it is the valley weather; heat does build up after several days in row of 90s and/or 100s. Really build up, so be prepared with your A/C and fans (notice lack of 'or' in the phrase...).
isn't it infuriating when monsanto sues a farmer
whose crops were contaminated by monsanto seeds?
With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU
Thank you, PriceRip
From a big fat nobody, well neither big, nor fat, but nobody, it seems that there's a huge difference between plants learning to produce certain things that help attract good bugs, or even harm bad bugs, (or people breeding them) and someone inserting something that is already harmful into the plant genome in order to (hopefully) produce this or that. Worse, enlisting the entire human population as lab rats, making billions of dollars for the companies holding the patents is unconscionable. Thing is, we'll never be able to trace any possible harm to GMOs, even if they truly are horribly unsafe.
It's too late. They're in virtually all processed foods, in one form or another. How long before we find out about some huge company lying to us with their 'Certified Organic " labels? It all makes me sad.
Even the new mushroom! It doesn't have anything foreign inserted into it but apparently you won't know when it goes bad. Wtf? How is that better?
hybridization is one thing
but modifying plant genes with things that would never happen in nature spells danger.
animals are designed to respond to real foods and when they eat something like food but it's not, all types of bad things happen. like fake sugars have done and chemicals in our food.
i'm not a scientist. but it seems pretty clear: the science hasn't been proven and GMO seed is contaminating natural seed. we do it with everything, like nuclear power, opening plants when there was no viable way to decommission them but hey, we'll figure it out... yeah. just look at Fukushima.
i mean really. we do not have the ethics in place to enter this realm... and the last piece, for profit, is the thing that really makes it corrupt.
we aren't prepared to alter food because we don't give a shit about the consequences.
“There are moments which are not calculable, and cannot be assessed in words; they live on in the solution of memory… ”
― Lawrence Durrell, "Justine"
To the diarist: Al's title was indeed inflammatory,
but he didn't coin it. It was borrowed from BAR; you knew that, right? The basic purpose of a title is to draw eyeballs to the content, so this one was pretty successful.
Did you also have objections to the content? Many of us, including the administrator of this site, encouraged Al to publish this, so I guess your issue is with all of us as well. Personally, I agreed with much of the diary and I welcomed ALL of the comments pro and con. I have no interest in seeing C99 devolve into just another tedious echo chamber, a lefty version of TOP. That means, pretty much by definition, that I won't agree with everything I read here. That's a good thing! Calling Al a troll is way way out of line.
Now, I get that speaking freely also includes your right to vehemently object to Al's diary... and my right to object to your objection. Another word for that process is discussion.
Hillary Clinton 2016: I'm a proud progmoderate!
Big Al's not a resident troll
and he's not a dick either. I may not call Bernie an pig but I sure as hell do not like his imperialistic pig foreign policy one bit. I have not picked up this opinion from reading fringe lefties or RW blogger's. I heard it from listening to what Bernie has stated. I also think Obama is an imperialistic you know what.
In your opinion the Black Agenda Report, the Intercept and far lefties like Cornell West may be fringe but not to this blogger. I too have used and still do use the term 'pig' as in capitalist pig, dirty copper pig, pig justice, and finally imperialistic pig. I'm an old DFH who still uses their descriptive colorful terminology.
I guess I am an ideological purist about democracy and imperial illegal endless war passed off as foreign policy. Nobody beat you up in that essay's comment thread. Sorry your so worked up but your barking up the wrong tree. Nobody here is required to toe the line for any pol not use sources that you define as fringe. We all are allowed to have divergent opinions and DFH are allowed to be anti-war and talk about issues they feel strongly about regardless of the pol were discussing.
A pol is a pol and none of them including Bernie should be considered above critiquing for their stances, policies, world views and agenda's. This is a democracy and I think Bernie would be the one of the first people to defend Big Al's right to call any imperialist a pig. 'Good, pure and moral' seems to be the same insult's I used to be called at dkos.
I'm also a reader of fringe lefty sites and think Cynthia McKinney who writes for BAR, is the cat's meow. I'm not a Democrat so I have no reason to toe the Dem. partisan line or carry water for any of these imperialist Dem. pigs. I'm an anti-war, liberal, purist and yet still I'm allowed to post here. Hope you calm down cause I'm also a hot head and know one when I read one.
ah comon now.. I wanna see what's next!
We got boycott the vote,, that's right don't vote at all.
And we got Bernie is an Imperialist pig. A socialist imperialist pig mind you.
Can you honestly say you aren't somewhat intrigued by what may come next?
Entertainment wise.
Speaking only for myself. I don't mind reading things I disagree with or think are,.. well.. kinda dumb.
I can engage and say so or ... I can move on to more useful endeavors.
With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU
PhilJD: You have gone about as far as
any human could possibly go in providing an excuse for that headline. Here's one for you: "Troll 4, Bernie 1". The administrator of this site also told that author that he was going to have to ride the tiger no matter what. What a thought picture that is!
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” Voltaire
Listen thrownstone...
what I meant by "ride the tiger" was that Al was on his own in that essay and I wasn't going to step in and sanction anyone for taking offense at it. That was a direct response to your "Fuck you" comment made at he top of that sub-thread, which by our rules you could have very easily been booted out of here for being a dick, yet it was allowed to slide.
I have known Al for years, he's one of my best friends on the internet, he was one of the first people I invited to this site when I built it. He is not a troll and I take offense to the accusations you are making in this essay.
Fine, JtC, I can see that
the author of the essay in question is well thought of here and his deliberate provocation was taken with humor. I am standing up for Bernie just as you are doing right now for your best friend. I accept, now, that your statement about "riding the tiger" was only in the context of that one sub-thread. If Bernie Sanders is a pig, then I am a dick. And a PROUD dick. I take nothing back. I gave your friend a chance to take it back and he refused. I can do no less. Do what you have to do.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” Voltaire
I'm as big a Bernie fan...
as anyone here. The "riding the tiger" comment was about not kicking you out of this blog for being a dick, don't you see the irony in all of this?
Nope, not yet, and I am a
magnet for irony. Must be too close to it.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” Voltaire
Cops are Pigs
We all have our limits: This is one for me. Part of why I had no problem leaving the Daily Kos was because of a2nite. There was no way we would ever have a civil conversation regarding the bad behavior of police officers. It's not that I don't know about bad cops, I know plenty of bad cops, but a2nite couldn't get her head around the notion that there existed some that were actually decent human beings. So when
Big Al stated:
I just clicked away, and found something else to read and write.
If Big Al wants to throw around "Cops are Pigs" you can expect a heartfelt "Fuck You" comment in response from me every damned time. That's why I liked the old email newsgroup option to edit a kill file. Not seeing such tripe helps to keep my comments sane.
I know nothing about your friend, just as you know nothing about me. More important nobody knows me so everything I type is taken at face value to the point that someone has already accused he of labeling your friend Big Al as a troll. This is ludicrous, I encouraged him to post the article knowing full well what the title would be!!!
But, I am sure someone will quote me as saying Big Al is a troll. So fuck it, believe what you will, and never ever read statements in context.
What has Sanders "lost" in the contest you constructed?
How has he been damaged at all? I don't think he's quite the delicate flower you imagine him to be.
Hillary Clinton 2016: I'm a proud progmoderate!
Oh, I see. And you took the administrator’s comment as a license
to then name-call a poster you don’t like a troll, over and over again.
If Black Agenda Report can call Bernie a “pig,” you can call fellow c99 members “trolls,” is that your position? Free speech? Otherwise we’re all hypocrites at c99? Am I understanding you correctly?
Hm.
lotlizard: I don't need a license to say what
needs to be said: I have an obligation to do so. The context of that statement (when you look , you will find it) was in response to someone using the "administrator of this site" as a justification for the headline which I find to be trollish in nature. That is all.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” Voltaire
You said your piece. Now you're harping
You're name calling, and you're escalating this all out of proportion. The only reason you give for it is that somehow you and it are ordained.
Your obligation here is to be a good guest. To work with others in good faith. You said what you wanted to say. You didn't get the response you apparently expected and need. You don't like it. You've said so over and over. We heard you. Time to move on.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
dkmich: Sooo, namecalling ISN'T okay?
Or just not okay for me? If it's time to move on, then go ahead.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” Voltaire
I am not going to roll in the mud with you on this.
Bernie is a public figure. Al is not. Al has been here a long time. He is no troll.
As I said, it is your job to be a good guest and to work in good faith with the group here. Noody died and left you in charge. You don't get to browbeat anyone. I'm done. I am moving on.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
good point dk
not to mention, I do love me some Big Al. i like his going out on the limb. very few people go far enough and he does.
i find it amazing that so many of us are unable to see out far enough.
i think Sanders is a good choice and I'm happy to cast my vote for him. but i do appreciate Al's POV. we've been burned and ought to hold more than a little in reserve rather than think Sanders is the be-all end-all.
but damn, Bernie does have the potential and the age to help get us in this game.
“There are moments which are not calculable, and cannot be assessed in words; they live on in the solution of memory… ”
― Lawrence Durrell, "Justine"
I didn't like the essay - I found it pointless
Don't get me wrong, I know Bernie isn't perfect. But I've always found this habit of the Left to attack the best candidate in my lifetime to be counterproductive. If one wants to attack Imperialist Pigs, there are several others who are much more hawkish and imperialistic that Bernie. Of course he's going to say he'll continue fighting terrorism. You can't expect him to say he's going to "let the terrorists win! OMG!!1!" but I suspect he would be far more judicial then Obama has been. But regardless, whether he is or isn't, he's still the best chance we've had of moving TOWARDS being less imperialistic, and so I always find these purity posts annoying.
That being said, Al had every right to post it and engage the group. I stayed out of it because as I said, I find dampening enthusiasm for our best chance to be pointless.
But this essay, basically doing the same thing to Al that Al did to Bernie, is kind of ironic, no? If one doesn't like name-calling, perhaps one shouldn't do it.
This reply isn't particularly aimed at you pfiore - I just was in the thread and clicked here to reply./
Please thrownstone
For your sake, let this go. There are much bigger fish to fry than this.
For the record, I have known Al for years on line and we have locked horns often. But the one thing I do know is that Al is not a troll. He is a very passionate person who sometimes can rub people the wrong way. The title of his post was taken directly from the Black Agenda Report article he referenced.
Please let this go. It is not worth it. Thank you. Nancy aka gulfgal98
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Why is it okay to call someone a vile name because you are
quoting some one else? How does that excuse the intent? the epithet? I will shut up, but I won't let it go.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” Voltaire
on the other hand, imperialism is kind of piggy
so anyone who supports various methods of imperialism....well....you know!
Sent to top comment baby
thrownstone, thank you.
I appreciate you speaking freely --- for expressing yourself honestly. I try to question the motivation behind writers, what drives them to express themselves, etc? Sometimes it isn't easy to determine those motivations, and sometimes I'm not able to determine them at all. I sense you are genuine.
I haven't taken the time to do any research on the "big Al", and I haven't decided if I'm even going to make the effort to actually do any research on him.
That being said, I think it's healthy to question. I think it's healthy to "get our feelings and perspective out there." I welcome your passion, love and care for this community! Your love for Bernie, as well.
The comment and conversation in Al's diary is interesting. And, it's healthy, as well.
I defend Bernie with all my heart. But, I cannot protect him from the shit that comes his way --- I can stand beside him, and honestly, I will give my life for him because I think he would do the same for me. We just gotta keep facing it together --- stay strong together!
PLEASE PEOPLE, don't start the 'research people' crap
just don't do it.
If you don't like what Al posts then do one of these things.
1. ignore it
2. comment
3. chuckle to yourself and go read something different.
IF Al is a troll (I DO NOT THINK HE IS). don't feed him.
It's really that simple.
I'm gonna say here one of the things I usually leave unsaid.
Talk of 'researching people' will, with out doubt, lessen my opinion of you and of you're opinions. There will always be that stain. ( not pointing, just saying)
If Al wants to post that Elvis is an alien who lives inside Obama, LET HIM.
The all so holy and desperately wanted non-member reader will see either a community engaging AL intelligently and kindly or they'll see a lonely post by Al.
Both speak to the tenor of the community.
Ya' all gonna upset me now if this 'research people' crap persists.
With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU
Thank you
Up voted a 1000s time- thank you for sharing it.
It is all good, all voices and opinions are welcomed. React accordingly, we need to have healthy discussions- no matter the source.
Dennis, I don't really care
what you think of me. If I want to research someone, I will. That's my fucking right to do research if I want to. Questioning involves research!
you have valid points
absolutely, you can certainly do as you wish. That's exactly how it is.
I should have made clearer that I wasn't pointing a finger at you in particular and was speaking to the larger attitudes that a site can express, or not express.
More so, I was saying that we might want to consider the argument on it's merit rather than the source of the argument.
I don't care who you are, I care what you think.
In any case, some things bug me. Witch hunts, purity tests, excessive paranoia among others (I have enough things to be paranoid about).
I tend to be less patient, less trusting and more cautious with those who promote such things And That's exactly how that it is.
With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU
I had never run across this term in this context.
Researching People: never thought of it. My life is an open book: I have always been in class every school day for 60 years. My life has always been under the microscope. Those that bother to "research me" know my financials better than I know my financials. As a public university faculty member, I am a line item in the state budget. As a public university faculty member (if you know how to access the records) my "service record" is, well, part of the public record. I live in a virtual glass house.
A wise man once told me that 'Man who live in glass house,
Have curtain around commode'.
I'd have to commit a super serious crime to come under that kind of scrutiny. And the scrutiny would pass, rather than last a life time of service.
Still, our Naughty Secret Auntie knows all our secret thoughts. Google told her.
With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU
This is not a partisan site
nor is it a Bernie site. Most of us here are support Bernie and most are liberal. I can only speak for myself when I say that I do not think It's healthy to place a pol on a pedestal like your doing here with Bernie. It the movement that he has engendered and not the persona of Bernie that matters to me. His take on economic disparity and reining in the transnational corporations is right on.
I don't like his foreign policy or war piggishness one bit. do I support his candidacy, yes I do as he is right about the oligarchical duopoly the deeply anti-democratic economy and many issues. The movement he has engendered and fostered gives voice to the 99% and encourages people to use their power. I don't have to idolize the man himself as that is not what he's about. Us not me.
For me it;s not really about Bernie it is about 'we the people'. Protecting Bernie from all the shit as you call it that comes this way may make sense on dkos as that is all its about over there. My girl is red hot, your guy ain't diddly squat. Here we are more into humanistic social issues, policy, human and civil rights, foreign policy and of course politics. Loving or hating pols is imo a bad idea. I got burned hating on The Mad Bomber in 2007 and believed that smooth operator who offered a pocket full of hope. No pol is gonna fix this mess, it's up to us. Bernie has showed us it's possible to take them on.
Al is a peace guy that's his thing. He's no troll and he's no dick and this is out of line. What's with this running around, troll hunting and researching people here when you feel some has insulted your candidate. Please also realize that most of us at caucus99% may endorse Bernie but were also interested in the truth and discussion's that allow people to talk about things that might put a pol or party in a bad light.
What are you going to do with your research results start a committee to declare Big Al or anybody else you investigate an enemy of the state and then blacklist them? Bernie wouldn't like that one bit.
I'll say it again ---
If I want to fuckin research someone, anyone, anything, any topic, I will! I don't give a shit what you think about me!
Nice.
Perhaps try leaving the anger at DK, or don't - as you prefer. But we generally try to be kinder to each other here.
IMO It's Kinda The Nature Of The Beast
People will write essays I may disagree with. I can ignore them. Or if I feel strongly, I will drop a comment or two to explain how I disagree -- which I did in the essay you reference.
Eventually, If I find I agree with less and less on the site, I'll find a more friendly place to hang out. So far, C99 has been pretty progressive and enjoyable.
I agree calling Bernie a Pig was meant to be Provocative. But as Lookout pointed out, I also call Hillary "Hellery". So Touche to Big Al. And maybe sometime I'll write challenging article about his candidate (if he indeed has one).
Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.
Seriously?
As far as trolling goes, Big Al would be rather pathetic. He pushed buttons, but it was well thought out and made rational points, even though I might consider some to be extreme. Heck, the comments included many opinions I do not share and that make me quite uncomfortable. But we're all struggling to map out a future for our basically shared viewpoint in the political sphere. I come here for info, but I also come to see how others are working out their struggle with the world as it is.
It strikes me as curious that the folks who built this site
…and worked hard preparing it as a safe place for thousands of folks jettisoned into cyberspace — that most of the founders and visionaries are pretty far to the left of Bernie Sanders.
At the same time, creating this site is a very "Far Left" thing to do. Springing into a selfless three-year rescue plan for the sake of everyone's well-being, regardless of their political orientation — that sort of thing is characteristic of the values of those on the Far Left.
When I dropped in just over a year ago, Big Al was already here. I was glad to see him, because he was the only person I knew that was as fiercely antiwar as myself. In any case, I didn't want to stick around because I was certain my antiwar attitudes would be too strong for the, then small, group. They insisted that nothing I could say would bother them. So I tried to make my most furious statements about how I really feel and who I blame. But they just stood around and uprated me.
That's how Far Left they are.
In any event, they got this handled a long time ago. The moderation system is the most advanced in the world.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Degrees of anti-war-ness and left-ness.
In the game of street cred I am not sure of the rules in this medium or even if there is really any point to the excercise in the world today. Back when there were consequences in the real world for being anti-war the battle lines were well defined and those who knew me knew where I stood. To suggest that some degree of left-ness, or anti-war-ness exists is totally alien to my Weltanschauung.
Maybe that's what drives me crazy, everyone seems to be fixated on defining their location (within an acceptable degree of precision) on a multidimensional map so as to proclaim their individuality. Accepting anything less precise and the sense of self dissipates as the morning fog. Paradoxically, all this is happening in an inherently anonymous milieu.
Think relativity. It's elementary.
There are both virtual and real world consequences pinned to degrees of antiwarness. And, this happens to be relative, also, to one's familiarity with open source intelligence.
It is one thing to have a passionate opinion about war. It is quite another thing to possess facts that collapse the last waves of probability into a flat, undeniable reality. It kills everyone's buzz.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Ah yes: Copenhagen Interpretation
The buzzkill for all TimeSpace.
Ah Thrownstone,
I'm just a 60 year old dude in my grandparents basement typing shit on my computer. Kidding, if you just take a look at my diary history, pretty easy to skim thru, you'll see that diary is what I've been doing for years. I started railing on Bush and the neocons and their wars, then I moved to Obama and got canned from Daily Kos, then they kindly invited me here and have put up with me. I'm purposely provocative yes, but I'm not a troll. I honestly want to end imperialism and militarism and nuclear weapons and all that and I'll use whatever tactics I can come up with to try to do it. Many don't agree, you're not alone
But forget the troll thing, I'm just a long haired hippie, veteran, 30 year fed analyst, father, grandfather and all around good guy in person. I don't hide, Al is my real name. I've been at this a long time.
Hey, you got passion, nothing wrong with that.
Big Al,
If it is okay, I just want to say that I love you!
We have always had similar goals, but have disagreed on how to get there. But I have always respected you and your passion. Now I respect how classy you have been too.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Back at ya gulfgal,
Appreciate the words. We are what we are.
Al, I honestly want to end imperialism and militarism and
nuclear weapons as well, but I would never open any argument by denigrating a person that I knew to be held in high esteem. I certainly wouldn't do it as a tactic because it's a damn lousy tactic: you are far more likely to offend a potential ally as a first impression than you are to strike an immediate accord especially on a site like this. The people here that know you might not be offended, but so what??? they already know what you are going to say because they've heard it all before. Scapegoating pore ol' Bernie Sanders to make your usual argument doesn't really help.
I accept you at your word. I hereby retract my concerns about you as a troll. I sincerely hope that you will consider other tactics in the future.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” Voltaire
keep pushing Big Al
you're one of the reasons to be at this site.
“There are moments which are not calculable, and cannot be assessed in words; they live on in the solution of memory… ”
― Lawrence Durrell, "Justine"
This is not That Other Place!
I sincerely hope it doesn't start being like it with people writing call out essays. I understand that you're upset, even though I didn't read your whole post. For what it's worth, I didn't read a word of his, because the title turned me off.
We've all got a little TOP PTSD, so I understand that it really pissed you off, but please, please, PLEASE let's not turn our calm little piece of the interwebs into the toxic, censored shit hole that is TOP!
[[[[ HUGS ]]]] eom
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
I certainly hope we're not gonna make up now!
not when we've got a rip-roaring, rip-snorting, barnburner going!
oh well....maybe we can sputter along a little more before this goes out.
sure...what is your preference?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” Voltaire
thrash it out, see where we agree or disagree
without anger 'cause anger blinds
OK so you don't like Big Al calling, or quoting someone calling,
Bernie a pig of one kind or another. I don't like it either.
But that doesn't make Al a troll. This is not Daily Kos, thank the gods, where we go around accusing people of being trolls because they hold opinions that differ from our own.
My own opinion of Al is that he often goes off the deep end in his style of debate and that no human candidate on the face of the earth would ever please him. I tend not to take his opinions seriously.
However, the accusation that he is a troll is out of line.
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons
Thrownstone - how many stones have you thrown in your life?
Have you hit anyone? Got them bleeding?
You said somewhere in this thread you don't know Al. So, fine, anyone who is sincere (and not a stone thrower) would conclude that it is a matter of character to not throw stones against a person you know nothing about.
If you had thrown pies, at least we could throw back some eggs, none of those can get people bleeding.
Just to let you know I love Bernie Sanders, I love pigs and I love Al. I do not love stone throwers, unless you admit you are a troll and are in fact a sweetheart. Well ... for a sweetheart you seem to be a bit too stubborn. But what do I know.
Don't pee in our swimming pool, please.
Thanks mimi
I too love and respect Al, love this site, respect and like Bernie and especially love you. You can learn a lot from reading here if you open up and listen to what people are really saying even if it pokes holes in your idols or cherished beliefs, fears and biases. When people say no we cannot stop these imperialist war pigs or else? I think this is not binary it's not a question of either we have a bloody revolution or allow this inhumanity to be done in our country's name.
This is a false flag. MLK talked about this at the end of his life. Chris Hedges talks about this so do the writers at BNR. Civil disobedience works and educating people to the horrors of what we do is also important. Politics are not static unless we the people consent to allow this to be the only way because this is how it is.
I love pigs also but i really cannot bring myself to accept the politics of hate that we have going on here. Why do we give even the decent pols a pass by saying it's just practicing politics when it comes to imperialistic pigs who are engaging in aggressive illegal war, committing universal war crimes and setting the world on fire. Because it's required for any serious contender to beat their chests and warmonger in order to win? I don't believe that is the case. Why pander to a the worst part of the American psyche?
Do I sound like Obama, when I say "I love you too" ?
I don't mean to.... but it's all so complicated, all these traps you can fall into.
Did you watch by chance the clip of Chris Hedges: Activist Rev. Berrigan Targeted by Church Hierarchy Joe posted in today's EB ?
[video:https://youtu.be/Ju79tSFaqYI]
It's good to listen to the whole thing, but it is the part where Hedges reads from a book of Daniel Berrigan "No Bars to Manhood" (starts at TC 5:20) I want to relate to. It brings out the thoughts I struggled with the most in so much clarity, while reading Al's "piggy" essay . Especially the last sentences made an impression on me and reflected a little bit what I felt when trying to comment to Al.
That passage of the book really got to me as being tragic and true. As we have to see our own "hands reach out with an instinctive spasm in the direction of our comforts - (and I would add our children's comfort, security and future well-being) and live with that inner conflict. That is not easy.
Thanks for your kind words, Shaz.
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