How can c99% keep discussions as great as it grows? Thoughts on trollproofing.

First of all, I do not have any technical experience with administering a site, let alone one with community participation. I don’t know the technical challenges of managing the flow of community content—what is easy to program and what is difficult. But I do know what makes for enjoyable reading and participating for me.

Most of the current members of c99% have migrated over from GOS for various reasons. JtC, in setting up this site, gave it much of the look and feel of GOS. This is a good thing—we all knew how to navigate over there and we could quickly figure out how to use this site. The familiarity helped us feel at home.

I very much hope, as Cassiodorus wrote yesterday, that this site continues to grow. I actually think 10,000 users is too modest a goal. I would hope that c99% can become the big forum for progressive values that we all pretended existed at TOP.
Right now, “there’s nobody here but us chickens”. We’re know we’re are among friends, and the discussions are very civil and affirming. If this site grows, it will inevitably attract other elements, whose goal is to either aggrandize themselves or disrupt what we accomplish. Right now, the number of users, comments and posts is small enough that JtC and a small circle of admins can manually police the content for DBAA. That won’t last forever.

I am concerned that, in adapting the general framework of GOS to structure this site, c99% will run the risk replicating the mistakes that have turned GOS and many Reddit sites into abusive cesspools of nasty comments heaped upon themselves, not informing anyone of anything and creating more heat than light.

Why do we have comments?

Really. We take it as a given that we should be able to post comments in direct response to a post. Why particularly? What if we started from position that there is no commenting function and ask ourselves what commenting adds to the experience for both the poster and reader of the comments? As a reader of posts and their comments, what I am looking for is 1) additional information or insight that helps me understand the subject; 2) reasoned and respectful disagreement; and 3) moral support for the poster and the community. I absolutely hate being expected to scroll through 753 comments under a good diary, 95% of it pie, me too comments and flung poo combat, to find those few nuggets of real thought. I rarely get to the bottom.
As a writer of comments, I have somewhat different goals: 1) I want to support good writers and good causes; 2) correct misinformation and challenge opinions I disagree with; 3) help out where I can with any background I might have. The goals of readers and commenters are similar but not identical. Managing the tension between the needs of readers and commenters is difficult and crucial.

We have some unspoken assumptions about comments:
1. Every user should have the right to comment.
2. There is no limit to how often, where, and when a user may comment.
3. All comments should be generally and immediately visible.
4. Any comment can be commented on, I.e. chains of comments can branch and form “trees”.

Let’s examine each of those assumptions, and see if they help meet our goals both now and in the long run.

Should every user have the right to comment?
Is commenting on posts a right or a privilege? Should one be able to join and immediately be able to post comments? The upside is that new users can immediately move into a discussion they feel part of and be welcomed. The downside is that trolls can join a site and immediately start disrupting it, doing perhaps considerable damage before they are removed. Should all users be equal in their commenting privileges? JtC has said he wants to run this site on donations and not have to turn to advertising to pay for it. What if he said that only paying users could post comments? C99% could also have a ‘soft’ comment paywall, such as you can comment for free the first 90 days and then pay, or you only get 1 comment a day until you contribute. Upside: we would all be reminded that this site costs money to run and do the right thing. Downside: some of us are genuinely indigent and cannot afford to contribute. One tactic paid operatives use is to set up “Rip Van Winkle accounts” to use years later to shill whatever cause they are promoting. Requiring that users log on and participate with some regularity in order to keep posting/commenting privileges would counteract that.

Should commenting be unlimited?
We assume that one should have unlimited commenting privileges. One of the products of this is pie fights and flame wars between individuals with dozens or even hundreds of comments being posted to the same post by one individual. What if you were restricted to, say, 5 comments per day? You would make sure you used them well and wisely and made meaningful contributions. Or the number of comments a user was allowed per day or week on their standing as a users—how long have they been on the site, how often have they posted diaries, and how well received their posts and comments were.
Secondly, who owns the discussion attached to the post, the OP or the community as a whole? When I comment on someone’s post, I try to see myself as a guest in their space and behave accordingly. It’s wrong to go into someone’s post and attack them in their comments, unless their post is truly a piece of hateful garbage that should not be posted in the first place. Even then it should be about the ideas and not the person. Should OP’s have some say in who may comment? What if there is a user that trolls all my posts? Should I have a right to ban them from commenting on my posts, independently of whether admin bans them?

Should all comments be visible by default?
On c99%, GOS and Reddit, we are presented with all comments visible by default to everyone. There are alternatives: I also visit Medium.com, which hosts a wide variety of material, some of it quite good. What I like about Medium is that the default comment view is only comments that have been recced by the OP, moderators, or lots of people in general. I have to scroll down to the bottom of the comments view and click a button to “view all comments”. So the comments I get to see first are the most thoughtful ones. It’s a form of soft moderation that really works well, in my opinion.

Likewise, should a comment be visible immediately? I know it’s valuable when there is an exciting news event or dynamic discussion to be able to post right away. The downside is that this immediacy is also precisely fuel for a lot of the negativity that happens in online forums. People want to get their word in first. We don’t take the time to think about what we are writing, and things said can’t get unsaid.

Is commenting on comments the best way?
We relate and display comments in a “tree” fashion, i.e. comments are displayed starting from the oldest and with their subcomments nested under them. I never liked this view; it’s too confusing who is commenting on what, some of the best thoughts wind up buried deep in layers of subcomments, and good top-level comments that came along later are often ignored. There has to be a better way. Again Medium.com has a different approach: The top-level comment box is right under the post. To comment on a comment, or to even see its subcomments, you have to click on the comment first. This tends to keep the comment tree much “flatter” and easier to read.

I’m really glad caucus99percent is here. Here’s hoping it grows, attracts all the like-minded folks out there and keeps the “nattering nabobs of negativity” at bay.

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gulfgal98's picture

As of March 215, 2016, any remaining semblance of reality went out the window in favor of partisanship over there.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

PROGRESSIVES.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

Unabashed Liberal's picture

Reality is non-partisan.

Couldn't agree more. It's also non-ideological. Especially since the Dem and Republican Party Elites worship at the altar of neoliberalsm (an ideology, of a sorts)

And, you say,

I think the only way to fight "talking points" is with a relentless attachment to reality from all of us.

Totally agree. Unfortunately, that can be trickier than it sounds. But if a Community is indeed fact-based, it's doable.

What distressed me the most about TOP was that in so many instances, and on so many issues (ACA anyone?), misinformation and Dem Party/DNC talking points were generally accepted as 'the truth.'

Therefore, the idea of Community moderation (there) was a joke, at best.

Mollie
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SnappleBC's picture

Not only was this true:

What distressed me the most about TOP was that in so many instances, and on so many issues (ACA anyone?), misinformation and Dem Party/DNC talking points were generally accepted as 'the truth.'

The converse was also true. Anything which came from a "right wing source" was implicitly not truthful.
In neither case was there any attachment to objective reality. It was simply pure partisanship.

The other thing I found disturbing was how solid factual information (Libya anyone?) that didn't fit the narrative was simply rejected out of hand without any attempt to even rebut a well sourced diary. And why do I have to assume that if a Republican president had dropped as many bombs as Obama they would be up in arms... yet Obama is perceived as a negotiator for peace. I wasn't there for it but I'm guessing DKOS's reaction to the Patriot Act was not exactly positive. But they are full-throated in support of it now that Obama has expanded and utterly discount the fact that he has lied about it repeated.

What enables that is more a function of the community than anything else. If trolls popped up and put such diaries here they would be laughed at or just ignored. But somehow a critical mass of the community at GOS shifted into an entirely partisan world view. We resist that here by resisting it... each and every one of us. We need to relentlessly demand solid citations and hard facts. I've seen a few theories here that, frankly, were not well supported by any factual evidence yet the narrative was anti-Hillary and so nobody said, "But wait...."

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A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard

Unabashed Liberal's picture

as untruthful, or inaccurate--when clearly, all are not. The truth is, it's sometimes necessary to cite a right-wing source, because some so-called progressive sights are prone to lie/propagandize inconvenient topics or issues, by omission.

And, think of all the issues that never saw the light of day at TOP. Or, at times, the laughable and distorted spin coming from the Front Page when a controversial topic was introduced for discussion.

Whew!

What a relief it is to have this place, now!

Smile

Mollie
elinkarlsson@WordPress


"I think dogs are the most amazing creatures; they give unconditional love. For me they are the role model for being alive."
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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

PhilJD's picture

like TOP is doing these days.

Markos obviously isn't the very brightest star in the planetarium but he never struck me as especially gullible either, so I find it hard to believe that he honestly thinks the endless stream of formulaic Clinton conversion diaries is on the level, the infinite coincidental variations on "I adored Bernie until he grimaced!" (Suggested alternatives: until he sniggered, until he sneezed, smirked, smiled, burped. Edgier-but-acceptable: until I noticed he was from Brooklyn, until the damn bird landed. Not recommended: until I noticed he was a Jew.)

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Hillary Clinton 2016: I'm a proud progmoderate!

shaharazade's picture

contention and authoritarian mind sets are going to get bored here. I agree with this comment 'Here's the key: if nobody listens to them, they go away. ' There was a essay the other day by someone who wanted to sow fear about not voting for Hillary. Was this a troll? I don't think so but people in the comments handled it pretty well. Usually if you tell a new writer here who's getting all wound up about partisan politics this is not a partisan site they will back off. This writer was flogging a dead horse as he said.

One of the reasons I like this site is that you do not have to self censor your opinion, subject matter, or ideology to suite some mission statement about US electoral politics. I noticed the few dkos'ers who came over to promote Killary seemed to just go away as this is not fertile ground for their authoritarian mind set or gotcha ad nasueaum. You can call Democrat's, Demo-rat's here. Someone may disagree but so far this place is free of talking points from above and everyone takes a dim view of media propaganda and fear and loathing that's spewed by the establishment pundirt's and the political machines.

I don't want the members to be able to blacklist people that's trouble. The trolls are coming! So how do we stop them seems unduly fearful, perhaps it's natural as dkos is built on a contentious model that became a cesspool of nastiness pretty early on. When I joined in 2006 there was a huge flamer pie fight going on they were rehashing the Civil War. "Fuck you' was the first reply to my first comment. Within this model I found community but the main arena was always a blood sport coliseum.

I also agree with the comment that said not liking the comment works too. If this place keeps growing it would seem to me that the people who are going to settle here are attracted and interested in creating a community that's not about bullying, trolling or fighting or sowing distension for disruptive purposes. I'm sure that JtC and others will come up with a good system for moderation that does not go against the spirit of caucus99percent.

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I like the comments, and omg, I like the commuity says the lady who choses the ATM over the humans.

I don't want blacklists, blocks, fealty oaths, rules, or anything else. I want c99 to have the freedom to evolve. I want adult behavior from adults. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it and then blame others because you put it on. No bullies, no matyrs. If Al wants to publish a diary that says Bernie is a pig, I don't care as long as I have an equal voice deserving of the same magnamity that allows me to say in return that Al's diary is a pig (if it is).

I trust Johnny to give us bells and whistles that will enhance our experience, not dictate or control it. I hate rules. I hate rigid. I hate consensus. I hate hot tempers that flare and then result in petty, grudging, petulent behaviors nursed so they can be carried to the grave. I don't expect to be special, but I do expect to be equal. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I am one of the several moderators here,and I like the way we function. Nobody goes off solo. We chat and look at things from our different points of view. We respect each other and the users here. We seek clarity and resolution, not crime and punishment. I was at dailykos today, and I couldn't believe what I saw. People's comments in LD's diary are being monitoried and reported for sanction. They are admonishing one another to be careful "how" and "what" they say so no one gets in trouble. BobSwern published one of his free use diaries, and the comments are captor to captive. I have never seen anything to thoroughly sadistic and maschoistic in my life. Why OPOL, LD, Bob and others subject themselves to this repeated abuse stupefies me. They can fight for Bernie, but why MUST it be there?

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Unabashed Liberal's picture

because some members don't realize that there are '10' people [Admins/Mods] reading the threads. I'm basing this observation on a comment, upthread.

I agree--the less authoritarianism, the better.

Mollie
elinkarlsson@WordPress

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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

Borkrom's picture

To me there is no such thing as troll proofing and most rules are made for the few bad people. With this in mind, my approach is just to ignore or do not engage a troll. You just give them power and attention which is all they seek. Therefore, just ignore or speak (write/respond) with them.

We have a controlled community but there will be instances where we have disagreements, but if we treat each other with respect and consideration then it will all work out and we can self discipline ourselves. These trolls will realize they have come to the land of the mature people and will wander away on their own.

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