Please Don't Flame Me--A different Approach
First, this thing ain't over. There is the FBI, and there is the ability to make a miracle if California can be persuaded to dump Hillary. We still have time, and as they said about us in Taxi Driver: "They're way ahead out there."
I don't really know how to establish my Bernie love. You can see my Twitter https://twitter.com/SqueakBaxter/status/723023255087390721
Or you can read my screed:
http://www.caucus99percent.com/content/harlem-leaders-fealty-clinton-ano...
Or just trust me.
Let me say my problem boils down to this: how does a person or movement send a political message, separate and apart from a vote they endorse? I will get back to that.
I love Bernie, and I never liked Clinton. I was for Obama, and have been very let down by many aspects of his Presidency. However, he also sometimes impresses me. Since he deals with every issue under the sun, that makes sense. One thing I like has been his Supreme Court picks, until Garland. And I liked Bill Clinton's picks too. Are any of us against Justice Ginsberg, or Breyer?
Now, allow me to express the feelings of the #NeverHillary people, since I am one, about half of each day:
"I cannot vote FOR Hillary. I cannot IMPLICITLY ENDORSE fraud, war, neoliberalism, corruption, and more...And the last thing I want to see is her up there on TV, smiling, waving, LIKE NOTHING EVER HAPPENED...I can't listen to the pundits talk about how she overcame Bernie Sanders, the doubters, the GOP, the high unfavorables, and now has a mandate to continue to shape the Democratic Party and reward all her underlings.
I will never, never, ever be part of helping that happen!"
How'd I do? Not bad, right? I get it. But here's the thing. THE SUPREME COURT HAS MORE POWER THAN THE PRESIDENT. Gay Marriage. The Supreme Court made it legal in all 50 states. Think about that, bridges are crumbling across the USA, but Obama cannot pass an infrastructure bill.
Political gridlock is real. Nothing happens, except: Gay marriage legal in all 50 states, That was good. Then the bad: Citizens United opens up a flood of money even though the Democratic President called it out in the State of the Union. They gutted the Voting Rights Act and the GOP Congress wasn't even asking for it. The Supreme Court is a huge effin deal.
Make no mistake, HRC-DNC understands this, and that is why they decided they could tell us who the nominee would be. They've been looking at this election as a gimme. They think they can ride demographics, the Supreme Court, and fear of the GOP to victory. And if Bernie does not pull this out, or if James Comey at the FBI does not bring down the hammer, then I hope they are right. Here is why:
Can Jill Stein win? No
Will going to war with the entire Democratic Party, splitting the left in this country in a bitter way, help us in the long term or the short term? No
Can this Political Revolution fight the next President?
Of course, and it does not matter if it's HRC or GOP! We will fight them tooth and nail, either way!!!!
I think we can all agree that HRC is LIKELY to nominate an acceptable person to the Supreme Court. I think we can all agree that a GOP court, given their descent into extremism, would do unacceptable damage to this country.
"If I vote for HRC for Supreme Court purposes, or support her election in any way, aren't I responsible for bad things I know she will do, and rewarding her bad behavior and that of her underlings and surrogates?"
No, not if you voted for Bernie in the primary. You tried to stop one kind of madness, the HRC-DNC kind, when you voted for Bernie. But now there is a different madness to stop.
If you believe Jill Stein can WIN, then my thesis is wrong. But let's not kid ourselves. If we don't grab hold of ourselves right now, Jill Stein will get just big enough to hand this election over to the GOP.
Now, I already said that a vote for HRC is not a vote for her evil, because you tried to stop that the best you could when you voted for Bernie. But if you enable her defeat, by supporting a spoiler, aren't you failing to do your job of stopping a greater madness, the GOP? I agree both parties at this point are mad, evil, corporate, and warlike. But one is still worse and also hates women. It is our duty to stop it.
"But," you ask, "I cannot help put her in a position of power, and watch her gloat and act dismissive of the Political Revolution. And watch all her social climbing sycophants cash in at the trough."
Getting back to the original problem. How do I vote for HRC without sending the wrong message?
THERE IS ANOTHER WAY...A THIRD WAY
1. Stay United as Berniecrats in massive numbers: Democrats who want reform and are loyal to Bernie as long as he can deliver REAL concessions - sign a petition telling Bernie to fight for certain REAL concessions, and if they give them up then we will support HRC vs GOP
Necessary Concessions-TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT:
-A complete overhaul of the DNC with an infusion of Berniecrats into leadership positions.
-A complete overhaul of the primary system with more transparency, openness, uniformity, and geographical balance, that gives a Bernie Sanders type an equal and fair shot.
-A 50 state strategy led by Berniecrat State Directors for states currently neglected.
-A commitment to a slate of election, campaign, lobbying, and ethics reforms, for DNC rules, legislation, and the overall spirit of clean government within the DNC.
-HERE IS THE BIG ONE: Remove Chuck Schumer as the heir to leader Harry Reid in the Senate-Claim a scalp: He is the Senator from Wall Street and an Netenyahu-enabling Hawk--Get rid of him and replace him with...Sanders, Warren, Merkeley, or perhaps Brown. Or even Feingold if he wins (give him back his seniority, dammit!)
This will give our agenda a leg up in the Senate, and help us win the Senate in November.
2. Let them know, despite their concessions, and our help in them taking office, OUR PRIMARY AGAINST HRC begins the day after she is elected. We continue the Political Revolution, flooding all political meetings, bodies, and offices with progressive fighters who won't stop till we CLAIM THE PARTY. Those in the party who want to be an elite operator in a world of money and pay2play politics can be pushed out. They can join the GOP if they want that kind of action.
3. Force the Democratic progressives to take sides. Let's face it, they should have taken sides during this primary. It's been sad to see the Sherrod Browns and the Barbara Boxers up there spouting GOP logic to defend HRC's fundraising. But honestly, Bernie's rise was unexpected, and we should give some good progressive HRC endorsers one more chance to choose sides, over the fight for these concessions. Remember, if they say no, WE ARE GONE.
3. We don't celebrate her inauguration, but protest it majorly. She will know we mean business. BTW, protests vs Trump could become purposefully violent, due to provocation for political gain, and our movement will be crushed.
WE ARE GOING TO FIGHT ANYWAY. IS IT BETTER TO CLEAVE THE LEFT AND FIGHT THE GOP?
OR TO GET MAJOR CONCESSIONS AND FIGHT HRC? I LIKE CHOICE #2
Thank you for reading, and keeping an open mind.
UPDATE: Thanks for the great discussion. One thing I can say with gratitude and certainty, is that you did not flame me. And really, what else can a guy ask for these days? Especially when they are suggesting we vote for HRC.
Comments
I don't disagree, per se,
I don't disagree, per se, with your proposal but I belong strongly in the camp of 'power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely'. This means that whoever gets a leadership position is at risk for being corrupted and heavily targeted by corrupting influences - this is how the Democratic Party became as it is today. So even if you brought your vision to pass, there may be a short term benefit but the stage is set for a new cycle of corruption, one that is bound to happen.
We need systems at all scales which limit the concentration of power in all types of institutions (political, cultural and social). Competition between such institutions and the current establishment for alternative solutions and models of society may be a better check on power.
Yes, everything possible needs checks and balances.
Perhaps more transparency in the Dem party would help.
Certainly we need new media, since the old are all corporate now.
We also need Big Unions to balance Big Corporations.
I do think it may be easier to take over the Dem party than to replace it with a leftier party.
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Thank you for reading
I really don't want to see a GOP Supreme Court. The Political Revolution must fight on even if Bernie is President, so handing the government to the GOP out of spite is dangerous. As long as you are willing to fight HRC and the party with the same ferocity as you will fight the GOP, why not enjoy the marginal yet real benefits of her election.
As for "power corrupts." That is true, that is why one of our movement's goals must be to hold our own leaders accountable, even our favorites. But if the left is to really guide this country, they must learn to embrace the power that comes with political office, with checks and oversight. We must take power. That is the point. We need to show "the grown ups" that we are the real grown-ups, because we are not in denial about major catastrophes like global warming and Monsanto. But while we are right, and fact-based, and policy-based, we must be eager to wield power for the good. Or the bastards will fill the vacuum, as they do now.
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
Your premise seems deeply flawed
Your entire argument seems to rest upon these two statements being correct:
"I think we can all agree that HRC is LIKELY to nominate an acceptable person to the Supreme Court. I think we can all agree that a GOP court, given their descent into extremism, would do unacceptable damage to this country."
The first is, to put it lightly, laughable. Just look at who Obama has put forth already - the terrible pile of human refuse that is Garland. And Obama is likely to the left of Clinton...
The 2nd would definitely apply to Cruz or Kasich, no doubts about it. But Trump is a bit of a wild card, running against disastrous free trade deals and the like. Between Trump and Clinton I'd prefer to take my chances on Trump. (In much the same way I'd prefer to be shot in the foot than in the gut. Still if Bernie isn't on ballot its Green all the way)
Trump would be a disaster for women and minorities.
Unless you think he's all bluster and pandering and doesn't mean any of it.
I don't think a Trump coronation would bring anything good. It would go to his already swollen head. Suddenly we'd all be "losers," and you can kiss economic reform goodbye, if we're not rich it's our own fault.
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But the Dems are now Neoliberals...
no hope of economic reform from them either.
FEEL THE BERN: "But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing." - Thomas Paine
"Here I Stand, I can do no other." - Attributed to Martin Luther, 1521
I second that
The Democratic party is neoliberal and all that it entails. It stands for austerity for the majority; giving the basics of life like clean drinking water and safe refuse disposal to private for-profit companies; destroying the public school system so that an elite few can profit; war in the service of capitalist monopolies to encroach on the global south; and so on.
It's time to say to the two money parties: You have an obligation to provide candidates who meet my moral, ethical, and patriotic standards. You have not so I will take my energy and vote elsewhere.
"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"
It's quite likely
That Trump is gaming the system. He was a democrat before, remember? And right now, he's running against the craziest of Republican senators. The only way to beat crazy is to be crazier. I think the way the Republican nomination process has gone proves that. What I'm interested in is what will happen with him in the GE.
The Chump
Precisement, madame.
That wasn't Le Chump, that was Herman Pain, er, Cain!
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Garland was Orrin Hatch's preferred nominee
Orrin Effing Hatch. Obama took Hatch's several instances of praise for Garland and put the conservative forth as his nominee to the Supreme Court. It's hard to imagine a Democrat nominating someone worse; but then, Obama isn't much of a Democrat except in the DINO sense, which is where we find the Clintons.
"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"
Plus, Ken Starr and Alberto Gonzales support Garland. Yikes! NT
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
This seems to be a popular opinion
I must say, I think anybody who thinks the GOP or Trump would not nominate a monster to the court, or that Garland is no better, is crazy. However:
I can already tell my take on things is WAY unpopular. And I am not going to sit here and tell people that there is any pleasure in voting for HRC, or that she deserves it, because she doesn't. So I can tell you that I don't see myself pushing this idea too much, because I want to get things done in this movement, and I have to respect the strong views of my fellow Berners on this. I am not out to battle people, especially for the benefit of HRC.
I also know that my idea to use our power to replace Schumer with Sanders or Warren, and reform the party is pie-in-the-sky. But I do think it would make an impact if we could pull it off. Without such concessions, I can't see any Berners being motivated for HRC just to save the court. And I honestly doubt these concessions are possible, so much of this is an intellectual exercise.
Honest question: would it be smart to start putting out the idea that they make Sanders leader of the Democrats in the Senate? It would do nothing for HRC, and take place even if HRC lost, but Bernie could imply that without it his people will bolt. He's 74, why not piss off the entire Dem Senate caucus and make them swallow it? Schumer is the worst of the Dems right up there with HRC.
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
Replacing Shumer
I really do like the idea of Bernie being the Senate leader. Then he would be in the best position to mitigate whatever nonsense Hillary tries to accomplish.
Yes, that's the best idea I've seen
In these last few days. I don't think she would do it, though. I don't think she even could.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
No, Hillary is not better, she's a guarantee of wars, oligarchy,
Big Brother surveillance, and climate disaster. She'll support the TPP and sell our democracy to the multinational's. She'll crack down on "dissidents" (us) and go back to supporting fracking. She'll "reform" Social Security, and make sure the left never has another chance to influence anything. After all, she'll know that Rahm was right about us - "Don't worry abou the left, where are they going to go?"
If we have any principles at all, if we ever want to have anything to say about our own lives, we won't support Hillary.
some good points
And I like your attitudes about continuing the fight from day one.
However, I am not convinced that the world won't go to hell in a handbasket in less than 4 years under Hillary.
She's a neocon. She *may* limit her actions during the first 4 years so as to get re-elected -- or maybe not, she may intend to have every fucking evil thing in place by the end of her first term.
Either way, it's already too late to avoid perilous climate change -- 4 more years of embracing fossil-fuels cronies, 4 more years of melting ice-caps and the world is probably a goner. And that's if we don't have a nuclear war.
They want to dominate the world! This is not science-fiction, it is well established. And they would rather dominate a dying world then lose control to someone who wants to save it.
If Hillary wins the WH, yes, by all means fight from day one like our lives depend on it, as you describe. But unless she goes through a REAL "evolvement" between now and November, I'm not going to help put her there.
And there is no way she is going to "evolve" short of something radical like a miraculous soul-changing acid-trip. Not gonna happen. She does not let herself evolve, no matter what words come out of that mouth from one day to the next.
⍢
Agreed. A Shillery SC would still be an oligarchs
court.
I refuse to buy into that Fear Fire Foes Supreme Court OH MY!!!! meme anymore -
FEEL THE BERN: "But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing." - Thomas Paine
"Here I Stand, I can do no other." - Attributed to Martin Luther, 1521
Anyone read Meteor Blade's "story" OT?
I think he could be feeling a similar --ambivalence? How to hold the Movement together, with PTB hell-bent on getting their way?
I think in late May, a decision consensus should be derived to keep the Sanders supporters together, as a strengthening political and cultural force.
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Irregardless
as to whether Mr. Trump or Secretary Clinton becomes the next president of the United Googleface of America, it will hurt.
I do not believe for a moment that Secretary Clinton will appoint and see through the confirmation of judges who are at all progressive. Even if that is the case, the damage caused elsewhere will be overwhelming.
I have read that if Mr. Trump becomes president, it is going to hurt a lot of people.
Suppose that is true.
Then here is a hard lesson: through this pain one may become smarter for the next round.
Though I doubt it. Too many have exchanged an analysis of reality for a virtual reality, the one in which their dreams come true. They have been brainwashed to reject any ideology so that they can be programmed with the "consume everything" ideology of capitalism: it doesn't look like an ideology, but every advertisement and every sale price tag project the message: you too carry a price tag, you too are a sales item to be consumed.
So it will hurt and perhaps when it hurts enough it will be possible to mobilize enough of the population to act.
But as one monastic person one told me, I am a hypocrite. Still, this is the best advice I can give, if you cannot escape.
Until that train rolls in, the best response is to go down into the community and deal with the garbage that is there, and try to do something that changes minds. Grow vegetables, teach people to read, clean up the trash in the park, stop presenting as a consumer - anything that embraces some of the suffering that people have and transforms it into a movement.
And above all, forget about anyone helping you. You are on your own until physical bodies with minds and hands sharing the work next to you, day in and day out, prove otherwise. Even then, you are on your own until the day you die.
Peace and love be with you, reader.
I would upvote that comment twice if I could
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
No. We cannot afford to make it worse in order to bestir people
enough to make it better. There are already people suffering. They will die with that approach. If people can't see the suffering, it's because they don't want to look, and they will continue not to look. We need to do the best we can do right now and keep pushing for better. A nasty Repub President is no solution.
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But Hillary is no better.
She is not even for full reproductive rights for women.
Both parties do not give a rats ass about the Comman Person - they will throw crumbs to the plebes, but both in the end do whatever is best for the Oligarchy.
Until we break this vicious cycle of good cop/bad cop, of voting our fears instead of our Conscience, the Common Person will get the shitty end of the stick every time. And deservedly so.
FEEL THE BERN: "But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing." - Thomas Paine
"Here I Stand, I can do no other." - Attributed to Martin Luther, 1521
You are right
I am in agreement.
But we can still win, the candle Bern's bright my friends, remember all the media are owned by six corporations which are owned by ... how many and who? The want people to think Sanders is finished. Even here for fuck's sake!!!
As Spike Lee would say WAKE UP
Don't let the Clinton propaganda psy-ops wear you down, Obama lost NY waaaay bigger than the Bern! Believe.
Then precisely what do you recommend
..... if HRC is the Dem nominee?
Hillary Rodham Clinton is a Republican. To the right wing of the party on today's terms, at that. She got herself mislabeled so she could help her husband dismantle the New Deal Democratic Party and replace it with the Dixiecrats, or the "Third Way" as we know them today.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Excellent...thanks.
Go Bernie !!
I have anew Cairn Terrier puppy
who will grow up to be a Toto, similar line to FDR's Scottie, Fala. Mine is named Skya. I like that statue.
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Fear based thinking
The lesser of two evils argument. You have made the argument that we should always vote for the Dem no matter how bad they are. The SCOTUS argument would apply regardless of candidates and cycle.
A bunch of sweeping demands with no leverage will make no difference to anything. Politics is all leverage, concessions without leverage are meaningless.
The best way to send a message in my opinion is to vote Green. The platform is close enough to Sanders and a shift of couple of million votes from the Dems to another party will make the party sit up and take notice faster than any list of demands.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Yes, now it all becomes strategic for leverage.
Entrenched Power can only be dealt with by organized opposition. [my father would be so proud of me, early Ramparts reading paid off!]
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A wise father by the sounds of it
Couple that with
"Power concedes nothing without a demand" - Frederick Douglass
and we get
Power concedes nothing without a demand made by an organized opposition [organized being the leverage]
Ramparts was just ending as I was becoming politically engaged (mid 70s) so I missed it at the time. Some very interesting alumni and spin off publications though.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Well, you use the leverage to
Well, you use the leverage to force them to give in to the demand. Such as replacing Schumer with Sanders. That would have a huge impact on the direction of the Senate, especially if we take it back. Against Trump or Cruz she might win anyway, we might as well get something along the way for our efforts. And then get right back to finding somebody willing to start a primary against HRC on day 1, that we can all get behind.
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
I am all in, if a Schumer replacement can be found.
He is worse for me than Al D'Amato, recognized Republican sleaze, but at least his office helped out with visa and parking ticket issues for NYers. Schumer invented photobombing before the concept. Old joke.
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Unfortunately
the sitting senators will never elect anyone other than a 3rd way, corporate friendly, go along to get along type. It is simply not in there own self interest to rock that particular boat.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Oh yeah, what if the Bernie
Oh yeah, what if the Bernie delegates, at the Dem Convention, start chanting "Jill Stein", on TV, during the keynote address. That'll get their attention. Hold their feet the the fire. Warren should be leader. Sanders should threaten to endorse the Greens if they don't give up anything of substance.
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
What leverage?
We have no leverage over the Senate. The members choose there own leader. Incidentally they will always choose a leader who is corporation friendly because this makes their own lives easier. A senator voting for Warren say, would be the equivalent of a turkey voting for Christmas.
Demands are a process and have to be thought through:
Who has the power to influence or change what you want changing?
How do I/we gain leverage over that person or group (this is where organization/forming alliances and coalitions comes in)?
How do we insure that the person or group doesn't backtrack?
These are just the basic ones.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Your argument is one that
I articulated when I was still hanging out at TOP as of a few weeks ago. But now...? I am not so sure. It is important to make sure SCOTUS doesn't fall into the hands of the radical right, but I'm equally worried that although Hillary might appoint acceptable people to the Court, everything else about her presidency will leave us standing still or take us backward.
Everything else you say about building a movement over the longer run I agree with 100 percent. We have to hang together as a force inside or outside of the Democratic Party. I have a sense that the next President will be a one-termer anyway. If it's Trump, the Republicons will get shellacked in the 2018 midterms and the Democrats will be in charge of reapportionment after the 2020 census in a lot of states. If we play a part in the Democratic Party-- not the establishment, but as a distinct progressive movement-- we could have an impact.
P.S. The obnoxious Shillary assholes at the TOP made me seriously rethink the "hold your nose and vote for her" argument. It would be insufferable to put up with such people for the next four years.
For at least another hundred years we must pretend to ourselves and to everyone that fair is foul and foul is fair; for foul is useful and fair is not. Avarice and usury and precaution must be our gods for a little longer still.
John Maynard Keynes, 1930
And they whine about the mean Bernie Bros
and then turn around with the same psych strategy. And do not recognize that. "Hillary voters turned me to Bernie!!!!"
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Some are trolls
Don't forget that at TOP many of the most obnoxious are trolls paid to turn people off altogether. And we should not base our vote on anything but the practical outcomes that will result. What I am saying is, fuck those TOP losers, and don't let them have ANY effect on you whatsoever. This whole thing is a personal choice, and a difficult one.
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
But they are paid by TPTB...
that tells me all i need to know.
They are just the messenger.
FEEL THE BERN: "But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing." - Thomas Paine
"Here I Stand, I can do no other." - Attributed to Martin Luther, 1521
Really, Grady,
the only practical impact is that they drove me away from TOP. If that's what Markos wants-- epistemic closure around the subject of the presidential race-- that's his choice.
For at least another hundred years we must pretend to ourselves and to everyone that fair is foul and foul is fair; for foul is useful and fair is not. Avarice and usury and precaution must be our gods for a little longer still.
John Maynard Keynes, 1930
They drove me from there too,
They drove me from there too, because fuck em. But they won't affect my vote.
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
Independent something
I think the movement has to continue strong and then evolve into it's own animal. We are not going to fade into obscurity.
But also, like Aardvark said, we need to get out there and do it on a local level at the same time, and that might be the most important thing.
I don't know that the movement would evolve into a Jill Stein thing. If the Green Party was going to carry the wave, wouldn't they already be doing it?
I am not convinced that Bernie would not run as an independent. He initially said he wouldn't . . . and he is a man of his word . . . but the stakes are high and what he knows now, he didn't know then. At a recent interview, when asked if he would back HRC, he said something like this . . . "what is she going to give us?"
Also, I am a Jesse Ventura fan. If you have followed him, you know that he is a smart guy who sees through the crap and supports Bernie on pretty much everything. He won the governorship of Minnesota with write in votes. He has this Donald Trump swagger sort of, but in his head he is a political genius, and a compassionate good guy. I think possibly the movement could evolve under Jesse. Not 100% positive though.
I don't know . . . what do you think? I know I cannot in good conscience vote for HRC. We don't have time to let her screw stuff up for 4 years.
Marilyn
"Make dirt, not war." eyo
Well, I agree no matter what
Well, I agree no matter what happens, there are certain principles this movement needs to follow no matter who wins what election. And even more importantly, we need to be active when no election is going on at all.
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
I just posted OT in the slanted morning news
after Dworkin put up the popular vote meme. Pasted below, what do y'all think?
Color me confused. Primary and caucus voting is done within a state. Then, with some magic tricks, delegates are sent to the Parties’ conventions. Popular vote means nothing in a Primary race. In similar fashion, in national elections, we vote again, and the popular vote then goes through more magic, to the ridiculous Electoral College, again diminishing (or magnifying, depending on state population) the individual vote. Individual votes do not really mean all that much, in this “democracy”. Don’t get me started about Republics and Democracies. I do what I can, it’s all disconnected from the outcome.
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Talking with friends re who Bernie should pick for VP if he wins
the nomination, Jesse Ventura was among the names that came up.
Someone who has just as much independence and backbone as (if not more than) Bernie — a weak VP might too easily incentivize a return by the Deep State to the “lone gunman” script of half a century ago.
Bad thought. n/t
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No way, Jesse Ventura has been a Repub racist, IIRC
And a woman one step away from the Pres would be nice under the circumstances. It should be a strong progressive. Possibly Liz Warren or Tulsi Gabbard or Kirsten Gillibrand.
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I have never heard
him be racist or sexist. He is 100% pro choice and 100% progressive.
Sure, I would like a woman in there too. But, Jesse is a good guy.
Marilyn
"Make dirt, not war." eyo
Sorry
Jesse is an idiot who set the independent party movement back a couple of decades. I live in Minnesota, and was an eye witness to his brand of governance. It was an embarrassment.
"The real power is in the hands of small groups of people and I don't think they have titles. -- Bob Dylan"
Unlike most candidates, Jesse actually served in the military
— as a Navy SEAL too. Good qualification for the C-in-C job. Better than many who didn’t serve — such as neocon chickenhawks, who want to rule the world and brutalize other countries but personally have never risked anything.
OK, perhaps I have him mixed up with someone else.
I could have sworn he was a tea bagger.
Anyway, I'll worry about it after Bern wins some more states!
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No to Kirsten Gillibrand
She's another $Hillary surrogate.
It's a big club...and you ain't in it!
How about Cha Cha DiGregorio?
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
BARBARA LEE!!!!!!!
She still speaks for me, and lots of us out here in California's Bay Area. I can't remember an election where California's vote mattered so much. And just imagine, and how universally great it would be to have her in the Whitehouse!
Yes! I could get very enthusiastic about Barbara Lee. n/t
hmm, really?
How about Robert Reich, if he doesn't get another position in a potential Sanders cabinet?
He definitely should get a position in there.
How about someone who fights the MIC?
https://www.euronews.com/live
No flaming, although I'm not sure how I'll vote in November.
I think the additional price we should demand is the end to DWS. What a tool.
I'll wait and see. If Bern goes into the convention with the popular vote and the supers give it to Hill, then I say let's go third party, we have the votes for the left to win. If he repeats New York several more times, then okay, clearly the Dems prefer Hill, I think we stay in the party and try to push it leftward. There's no point to a left party with relatively few members.
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The end of DWS should be the
The end of DWS should be the appetizer of this negotiation.
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
No, because it's rewarding bad behavior, again.
This is the "Loyal Opposition" theory. The idea that the Democratic Party will accept criticism at all is laughable. They've put their cards on the table when they started stealing elections.
The Democratic party seriously believes that the little people DO NOT MATTER. This is why they abandoned the 50 state strategy, have embraced low voter turnout as a tactic, and voter suppression as a matter of course.
This strategy is the equivalent of sticking with the abusive spouse saying they'll stop drinking and hitting you... at an unspecified time in the future, after the kids are out of the house, maybe.
But you know what? We can and will live without them.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkb-1ryitXU]
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
right, dmw, we will survive,
sometimes with miracles included.
https://www.euronews.com/live
No time
We need drastic change now. Hillary will place more importance on keeping the system the way it is because that will benefit those who finance her and we just cannot do that in the face of imminent irreversible climate catastrophe, not to mention the loss of our freedom from oligarchy. Hillary is the old order that is corrupted and unsustainable. The times call for major change for our survival as a healthy, free, prosperous Country. I cannot vote for corruption, economic and political stratification and war, I cannot vote for Hillary.
Beware the bullshit factories.
"No Time" is by far the most important point . . .
You are absolutely right.
We do not have time to vote for Hillary or anyone else who is not 100% progressive. Mother Nature is not working on a timetable that allows for fuckups.
Marilyn
"Make dirt, not war." eyo
Leverage - you HAVE TO be ready to walk away
You have to mean it, and you have to follow through on it. If not, go home and pull the covers over your head for the next however many years. You need to know your big core non-negotiables (and they should be big), but you don't start by demanding the least you're willing to settle for, either.
Otherwise, why should they care what you want? You have to be prepared to take decisive action to hurt them. And you have to DO it if you don't get what you want. You don't say, well I really want Bernie, but I'll vote for Hillary if you won't let me have him. You don't say, I won't vote for her, but then cave in November. Not if you hope for any future.
Remember Rahm, "Fuck the Left. Where are they going to go?" OK, where are we going to go?
Bernie or Bust. Never Hillary. Never ever.
Here is the crux of my
Here is the crux of my argument: If we "mean business" and walk away, what do we get? Nothing. We get a split left against a unified GOP. To make that work, this movement has to work, and work hard. Constant activism, flooding every meeting and election, with constant voter education, neighbor to neighbor. That is what me must do.
Now, if we enable HRC's election, and work just as hard, we will have more and better change, than if we expend the same effort against a full GOP government. Our job is the same, to fight until we win. Why make our job more difficult? Just fight HRC the way you would fight Trump or Cruz. Relentlessly and without mercy. I can do all that and still vote for her in a 2 person election. Jill Stein is not a choice, she a is a spoiler.
I realize now that I am in the Berner minority, and my approach can gain no traction in this current election environment. And I really have no problem with those who disagree, like yourself, because your view is actually more morally consistent than mine. I get that.
I still think my approach makes more sense, and I can see the difference between HRC and the GOP, but I can see I will not be spending lots of time trying to convince my fellow Berners of this.
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
Oh, now you make it clear. You want to enable HRC?
You want to "enable HRC's election" ???
I wish you would have stated that in the first place.
I think these are the people you want to help:
⍢
"Enable"her election and then "fight" her?
Are you kidding me? All she wants is power. Once she's in power the fight is over. She'll brush us aside like the gnats she thinks we are.
Twain Disciple
What do you think of the Leap Manifesto?
If you haven't read it... here it is in PDF format
Now.... what do you think about it?
Please help the Resilience Resource Library grow by adding your links.
First Nations News
Thanks for that. I DL'd it
Thanks for that. I DL'd it but I gotta run. I will comment on it here tonight on this threadif you want to check back. Looks good so far though.
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
You write as though
Bernie had lost, it is losing. He's not, less than 200 delegates separate them. He has an excellent chance of winning, especially with a Rustbelt winning streak coming up. If NY provisional voters get counted, more delegates!
Tosh, ye if little faith.
Oh yeah, no matter what, Hillary will NEVER get my vote, even Bernie Sanders fliez out to Seattle, takes me to lunch, and begs on bent knee.
You write as though
Bernie had lost, it is losing. He's not, less than 200 delegates separate them. He has an excellent chance of winning, especially with a Rustbelt winning streak coming up. If NY provisional voters get counted, more delegates!
Tosh, ye if little faith.
Oh yeah, no matter what, Hillary will NEVER get my vote, even Bernie Sanders fliez out to Seattle, takes me to lunch, and begs on bent knee.