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Open Thread - 07-25-25 - Nothing New Under the Sun

I've never been a particularly religious man, but I've always been curious about how we humans fit in with the cosmos, in the grand scheme, and with nature in the small.

When I was in my teens that curiosity led me to The Bible. I started with the Old Testament and was struck by its endless begattings and wholesale brutality and genocide. To my young mind it was not much more than a chronicle of births and deaths, and wars, both personal and of a people, with an underlying essence of fear. Fear of consequences for not adhering to a belief system emanating from a singular high authority and ultimately, a system of control.

Adhering to this belief system was the way, and the only way, into the Kingdom of Heaven.

I did not buy in.

Then I turned to the New Testament, which was revolutionary in its precept of a new way into the Kingdom of Heaven. A new way for all people to enter that Kingdom, all inclusive for those that believe in the divinity of the Son of the high authority. The same high authority of the Old Testament with a twist, one must believe in the Son to gain entry into the Kingdom of Heaven. One no longer needed to be a member of a certain people. It was the new way for all true believers to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but still, the only way.

The contradiction was not lost on me, and I still did not buy in.

We see the two Testaments playing out today in the same area where they were born, the Mideast. The New Testament "turns the other cheek" as the Old Testament stays true to its message of war, death and genocide. Forget that the Son and the Father are the same, but different.

It's clear, to me anyway, that the two Testaments, both born of fear, have failed humanity. We need a New Way.

Disclaimer: I apologize for my overly simplistic understanding of the two Testaments, I know many will disagree with my overview. I'm a simple man with a simple view of hate and death and war. Maybe I don't really understand it, but I do understand the genocide playing out in its name. How can the world allow it to continue? Perhaps adherents to both Testaments wont make it to their Kingdom of Heaven.

We, as a species, have failed.

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and then there's this:

And then there's this:

That lead to this:

Maybe there is hope, yet, for humanity, although it's wearing thin.

RIP Ozzie.

Edit to add: I think I traced down the bug that's been slowing the site down last night.

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usefewersyllables's picture

The very first Label That Must Be Capitalized. From my essay on Philosophy:

I had an epiphany of sorts when I was in college. Religion is known to be yet another form of Economics: primarily having to do with how to most efficiently part the believers from their money. I believe in no Religion, as I was raised in the complete absence of it.

Nearly every major Religion espouses, as one of its most basic primary tenets, that *it alone* holds the key to truth, or salvation, or whatever Good Thing they are selling that week. Only that single Religion is Right, and every other one is Wrong, and the adherents to such wrongthink will certainly burn in Hell, or go bankrupt, or whatever Bad Thing they are selling that week.

The epiphany was this: if the clear and present fact that every Religion believes that every other Religion is Wrong is to be accepted, then by Gawd (and Occam) it follows that they must *all* be Wrong.

Submitted as Snark, and with no intention of harming any other. Peace, and may the Flying Spaghetti Monster touch you with his noodly appendage, should you wish it... rAmen.

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Twice bitten, permanently shy.

@usefewersyllables
of the famous 20th century philosopher, Ian Anderson:

If Jesus saves, oh well, He'd better save Himself
From the gory glory seekers who use His name in death, ow
Oh, Jesus save me, oh

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QMS's picture

.
on that subject
(more like a cat spewing a hair ball)
evangelicals selling tickets to heaven?

Oh, there you go.
I may be crazy, but I don't believe
I am totally insane. Like the news ..

thanks for fixing the constipation

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Zionism is a social disease

@QMS
had a lot to say about "selling tickets to heaven". Indulgences. Which lead to a schism of Christianity and many more centuries of hate and death and war.

It's a recurring theme.

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QMS's picture

.
have never believed in any of the horse shit
as being 'gospel' in other words not worth a
bit of attempted understanding. Just saying

Thanks for the OT

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Zionism is a social disease

@QMS
Can I get a witness?

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Judaism was "improved" by Islam. Christianity is an "improvement" of Judaism, worthy of a new Bible. Hinduism was "improved" by Buddhism. Orthodox Churches are an "improvement" of Catholicism. Protestantism is an "improvement" of Catholicism in all it's forms.
Protestantism has many denominations, each one claiming to be an "improvement" over the rest.
I still get a kick out of Baptists who insist of full immersion baptisms do not believe Methodists, who merely sprinkle water of the forehead are saved and thus cannot enter The Pearly Gates.
Islam split over one sect choosing their religious leader by selection, the other by heirship.
What caused mass bloodshed throughout the world? The Crusades, the Inquisition, all to promote the Price of Peace.
Makes perfect sense, amirite?
Have a blessed day by whomever or whatever you think can bless you!
edit: to clarify and correct spelling. I sawwy, Lawd.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp
you'd think we'd be perfect by now.

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@JtC Prince of Peace, but it is a typo resulting in "Price". I think I will leave it the way it is.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Socialprogressive's picture

every Sunday and catechism once a week until the age of 15. Thankfully the programing didn't stick.

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42d9c2aea9b17f3c150aee5af8852a65d3e7da1d78ca280760d712548de7e1b7.jpg

imaginaryfriends.jpg

homeless.jpg

believers.jpg

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MAGA
Morons
Are
Governing
America

QMS's picture

@Socialprogressive @Socialprogressive
.
having faith in a make-believe
caricature from 2K years ago
is quite a stretch to begin with
let alone building temples and
posting idolatry to prove their
ignorance of the "rules"

thy shall not worship my father
in temples or with idolatry was
quoted by some scripture or another?
from what little I read in some motel
room provided by Gideon one night

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Zionism is a social disease

@Socialprogressive
my friend.

Is that the ring from Lord of the Rings that Jesus is wearing in that last meme? The one ring to rule them all? I bet it is.

The_One_Ring_on_a_map_of_Middle-earth.jpg

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enhydra lutris's picture

context.

1 - Old God is invincible creator and war god, follow and obey him and all shall be yours and btw way there are a)a thousand rules b) a privileged priesthood and c) an obligation to kick ass on, and possibly genocide, all who don't belong to the tribe or submit to said old god. Said old god is notoriously vengeful so don't even think of deviation from any rule.

2 - Rome then kicks ass on the chosen people of the invincible war god. Hmmmmm.

3 -New godling - I am extension of the old god (at one point he says he comes not to change "the law" but to enforce it. For now, however, turn the other cheek, pay your taxes but continue to fund the church, go along to get along and believe in and follow me, for soon comes Judgement Day. Everybody (especially Romans) who ever really pissed you off shall get theirs and be punished for all eternity, while we, the good guys, shall sit at my father's table and feast and look down and watch and gloat over their torments. This is one vengeful MF, just like his dad, but some patience as well as devotion to the brat and his priesthood is required in the meantime while we await or ascension and the downfall of all the others.

be well and have a good one

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

@enhydra lutris
there's this.

It gives the phrase, "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." a more purposeful meaning.

The theory is the Romans created the New Testament to teach the unruly Jews subservience and to "turn the other cheek".

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soryang's picture

I'm not into deism, but some of the more mellow prescriptive aspects of the "golden rule;" as well as the "Eight beatitudes," and the 108 bows (not that I do that physically) have made an impression on me. This in spite of rather decisively not taking the dogmatic aspects of religion seriously since I stopped believing in Santa Claus. Now, if it weren't physically difficult for me to attend a congregation of some kind I would be willing to attend regardless of the denomination just for the social aspect of meeting with people from community, who weren't politically obsessed and argumentative, and spending some enjoyable time with them. What the homily is about isn't particularly important.

Someone told me, oh I recommend the Unitarian Church. Yet when I took a look at a local congregation they were literally pushing Russiagate, or some other political fairy tale, so I didn't make the effort.

Once I asked my mother in law, who was 80 at the time, if she really believed that bible/new testament stuff because she attended the services "religiously" as it were. She replied "of course not." I had also seen her using prayer beads, in the Eastern tradition. The real purpose of the church functions in her tradition, at least as I understood it, was simply to recreate the sense of belonging to a community which shared similar customs. The church seemed to be the default mode. In contrast to her cultural heritage, I found myself unable to experience this in other church communities. Nonetheless, these more comfortable or less dogmatic, "Christian" congregations were subject to schisms, mostly power struggles between factions, in the congregation; disputes over abuse of, or conflict of interests, in the disposition of Church resources. This would typically involve Church funds and/ or real estate.

You know you're in trouble when the preacher needs a body guard.

Incidentally, I was listening to a discussion of the Moonie role in Korea as compared to the Moonie role in Japan. It was alleged the cult manipulated the conservative party nomination process and election of Yoon as president, and it was asserted that the Sincheonji cult which I have followed in the news for a few years (no doubt a cult preying on the lonely and gullible) was a part of the Unification Church (the Moonies). I had noticed the strong similarities of the two cults. I had also wondered where the Moonies had gone in South Korea. It looks like a rebranding operation. Perhaps like a subcontractor doing what the principal organization seeks to avoid being accountable for. The manipulation of the party election process in Yoon's case is currently subject of special investigation by prosecutors. The former first lady, Kim Gon-hee is suspected of receiving bribes in connection with this scheme by the cult to make the most incompetent and pliable dupe the president of South Korea. We'll see how much of these allegations prove out.

Thanks for the OT JtC!

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語必忠信 行必正直

@soryang
is it answers the greatest metaphysical question of all time, what happens when we die. It's that fear that draws people to it, and why so many provisos are attached to it. It's a perfect control system and has worked for millennia.

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enhydra lutris's picture

@JtC

we become skeletons.

be well and have a good one

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

@soryang

The real purpose of the church functions in her tradition, at least as I understood it, was simply to recreate the sense of belonging to a community which shared similar customs.

Can't you get that from many street gangs? It seems the military may work the same way, as I've seen various ex-soldiers talk about how on the battlefield they were concerned with protecting/being protected by their comrades (homies?) rather than the rightness or not of the reason for battle.

Kind of like Muddhead in "Don't Crush That Dwarf Hand Me the Pliers" who when asked what he'd do after graduation replied "I thought maybe I'd go out and find a bunch of guys and dress alike and follow them around". Sounds like gangs/military/cults/religions/political parties/life to me.

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soryang's picture

@MichaelSF

It's similar in a way. But in the case I'm talking about it's a reference to the fixation on the home community in far east culture. It is the exact opposite of what Hedge's always refers to as anomie. Koreans call it 고향 ko hyang and the Chinese call it 家乡 Jiāxiāng. It's the foundation of community, where the family and childhood friends originate. It provides a basis for social bonding, reciprocity, exchange, goodwill, community standards, giving, etc. Koreans return to their go hyang on the autumn and new year holidays to gather with the family and honor their ancestors. It's the old way. My point here is that the church community replaces the hometown for immigrants to the US.

It's lacking particularly in western urban cultures, where individualism and the culture of self reigns supreme. In this vacuum, the other behaviors, gangs, cults, religion, totalitarian behaviors thrive. I think the military indoctrination is designed to break down whatever socialization you entered with and replace with the new military behavioral conditioning. A lot of cults are like that too of course.

비 내리는 고모령 Rainy Gomoryeong
Looking back to the time I let go mother's hand
The owl cried and I cried too,
I long for the evening we crossed over the mountain ridges
with fallen leaves flying about.

How many years was it, I picked the amaranth blooming
Behind the water mill, enraptured?
Why can't I forget the budding wild rose?*
When will the falling rain cross Gomo pass?

Tears of childhood life, how many hills were there?
Among lanterns flickering at the tavern house,
Writing these sentimental notes to myself,
This evening yet, the night sings the homesick song

https://civilizationdiscontents.blogspot.com/2020/08/rainy-gomoryeong.html

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語必忠信 行必正直

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp
no comment.

I know when to shut up. Biggrin

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[1:26] Then God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."
[1:27] So God created humankind in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.
[1:28] God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth."

https://www.vatican.va/archive/bible/genesis/documents/bible_genesis_en....

My parents were not church goers, but they were not deeply committed to agnosticism or any other brand of philosophy. My mother's father was a Nazarine minister and she was neither an atheist nor an agnostic. She just had enough church during her childhood to last her a lifetime. My father had his own eccentric theology which rewarded his "good works" as a union leader with a pass into heaven. He had a profound dislike of preachers. They did not go to church or require me to do so, but they allowed me to go to church with my married half-sister who was 16 years older than me and was a deeply devout Southern Baptist. When she moved away when I was about ten years old, I started going to church with my grandmother.

At age 13, I quit religion and have never looked back. The story did not add up, much like the Covid tale.

I did not think much about metaphysics again until I got to be about 60 years old. The above quoted passage from the Book of Genesis was the ultimate deal breaker for me and the Jewish-Christian- Islamic Faiths. The idea of dominion is ultimately suicidal for our species and our planet.

Cooperation is necessary. Dominion is evil. Case closed.

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I cried when I wrote this song. Sue me if I play too long.

@fire with fire
the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth" sounds much like "the chosen". I didn't know God was such a supremacist. Or maybe it underscores the Old Testament writers biases.

The "dominion" concept may have origins in accordance with the hunter-gatherer forgoing living as a part of nature in lieu of dominion of the land and beast by agrarian and animal husbandry practices when moving from the forests to village life.

Cooperation is necessary. Dominion is evil. Case closed.

Yup.

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enhydra lutris's picture

@fire with fire

God's universe cattle were pre-domesticated, being set off from the wild things as something special.

be well and have a good one

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

QMS's picture

.
has never perplexed me
nor do I fear it
at times I welcome it's approach
as the pain gets a bit much to bare

bring it on, you geeks of legend
I'm ready.

and this

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Zionism is a social disease

@QMS

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the proper tools to answer the simplest of questions. Immersed in a matrix of time and space I am left wondering why. Am I being punished or have I been given a great opportunity? To which I feel both unjustly punished and undeserving of any reward.

There must be some kind of way out of here….

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“The story around the world gives a silent testimony:
— The Beresovka mammoth, frozen in mud, with buttercups in his mouth…..”

The Adam and Eve Story, Chan Thomas 1963

@ovals49
of existence, from tabula rasa to enlightenment, from birth to death, and all experiences in between.

"I can swear there ain't no heaven,
But I pray there ain't no hell"

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QMS's picture

@JtC

82 years young

hell of a performer

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Zionism is a social disease

QMS's picture

@ovals49

.

are imagination and wonder
think Hendrix had plenty of both

thanks for checking in BTW

you seem to have both in your belt
from memory of our bike ride on the cape

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Zionism is a social disease

QMS's picture

Tombstone blues
from highway 61

and seems to go with the flavor of this post

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Zionism is a social disease

@QMS of the day Dylan went electric.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

QMS's picture

@on the cusp
.
eclectic perhaps ?

play on words
saw him perform in Providence
a few years back with a terrible voice
doing his country / western music theme

very late in his career
ah, well

better late to the party
than missing everything?
I guess

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Zionism is a social disease

@QMS
I was among the disappointed with electric Dylan, loved my introduction to Johnny Winters (and his jamming with BB & Lucile), and was quite high and terrified when Sly and the Family Stone had the overflow crowd breaking through the chain link fence and rushing the stage in the middle of a thunderstorm. Then it was on to Woodstock in my friends VW Westphalia. I left Saturday morning, driving north on dirt roads to get home. The NY State through way was a parking lot. Too many people and far too few porta-potties already overflowing.

Good times……

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6 users have voted.

“The story around the world gives a silent testimony:
— The Beresovka mammoth, frozen in mud, with buttercups in his mouth…..”

The Adam and Eve Story, Chan Thomas 1963

@ovals49
I missed it:

Then it was on to Woodstock in my friends VW Westphalia.

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@JtC
I went to Staples High School, which enjoyed the perfect wave of famous and soon to be famous bands, for $2.00 - $2.50 per seat!

My only regret is that I did not go to ALL of the concerts

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“The story around the world gives a silent testimony:
— The Beresovka mammoth, frozen in mud, with buttercups in his mouth…..”

The Adam and Eve Story, Chan Thomas 1963

@ovals49 as opening act and back up band and did a major gig in Houston. I was a law student, and my lawyer pal and my law professor pal went to a football stadium, passed along all joints without taking a hit. We were good, but we took our time passing just sayin'...
I had always been a Dylan fan, acoustic or electric, but this was the day I dedicated my respect and my heart to Tom Petty and The Heart Breakers.
They were AWESOME. Unexpected, whereas Dyan was a given. He was that day. He was. He is. He will always be.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

QMS's picture

@on the cusp

Dylan was a given. He was that day. He was. He is. He will always be.

Nothing against the man or his talent.
Gets old after a fashion.

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Zionism is a social disease

@QMS have long since lost their voice. Dylan tours with Willie Nelson. I would go to their concert out of respect, not expecting much from their vocal chords.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

enhydra lutris's picture

be well and have a good one

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

QMS's picture

@enhydra lutris
.
almost in the gospel tradition
belt it out and tickle them ivories

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Zionism is a social disease