Open Thread - Thurs 20 Feb 2025 - Diocletian Sez!

Diocletian Sez!

In 301 AD (1700 or so years ago), the Roman Emperor Diocletian issued an edict in an attempt to control inflation in the price of just about everything sold in the Empire. I ran across a quote from the edict* and found it appropriate to our times too. Maybe our inflation isn't that high, and maybe the powers that be have learned, with repeated lessons over and over again through time, that they can't rob the common people of everything, but, I dunno, it still seems appropriate.

File:Edict on Maximum Prices Diocletian piece in Berlin.jpg
By User:MatthiasKabel - Photographed by myself in Pergamonmuseum Berlin, CC BY-SA 3.0, Link
Part of the Edict's list of maximum prices from the Pergamon Museum in Berlin

Here's what the edict said in part:

Who is not so dim-witted or so devoid of human feeling that he cannot have known or noticed that all items offered for sale or traded in towns have increased so much in price that unbridled greed is no longer restrained, even by a superfluity in the market or a good harvest? The men who are behind this business are constantly on the alert, scanning the stars, the wind, and the weather, vexed beyond endurance when the fortunate earth is moistened by rain from heaven as earnest of future fruitfulness, since they only pity themselves. These men, who have nothing better to do than carve up the benefits sent by the gods, for their own advantage, drumming up the open-handed favour of heaven and in bad years trading in seed corn and cornering the market. These men, who are swimming in wealth that would satisfy a whole people, think only of their gain and their percent. It is to forbid these men the practice of their greed that we are called by our care for humanity.

Proclamation by Emperors Diocletian and Maximinian and Caesars Constantius and Galerius, Price Edict of Diocletian AD 301' - pg 319 in the book* mentioned below.

Diocletian is interesting because he was NOT a member of the Imperial upper class, the senate, and so on. He was born and raised in Dalmatia, in a low status family (he was called Diocles then). Maybe he had some actual memories of what normal people experience(d) during their lives? Or maybe he was just empathetic. Many of his changes to the Empire, to how it was ruled, did not last much longer than his lifetime, although his rule did end the crisis of the 3rd Century AD and established the process of the split of the Empire into Western and Eastern parts, with two emperors, two 'caesars' (sub emperors or junior colleagues), two capitals (Rome and Byzantium), and eventually two histories.

Are we in such a time now? I don't know. I don't think we are there yet. Maybe TPTB will be smart enough to make sure all the lower classes and commoners have bread and circuses, even if they are in say, Ukraine, or Mexico, or wev the USA PTB want to own but not care for. I kinda doubt it, but who knows?

*The quote from Diocletian's edict comes from a book I just finished reading entitled Roman Vectis: Archaeology and Identity in the Isle of Wight. It's a good archaeology book, and the author, David Tomalin, puts Vectis in the context of the 400 years or so of Roman history of Britain in a good, detailed way, including discussing the economy. The book was published in 2022, so it's very up to date.

So enough of that history and archaeology! Here's the open thread - remember, everything is interesting if you dive deep enough, so tell us about where you're diving!

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Sima's picture

Hope it's a great day for everyone. I might be going to get some fencing and some... pizza. Woo hoo Smile The first seedlings are up in the greenhouse, even the peppers. Time to plant some more seedlings this coming week, tomatoes included!

What's up with you all?

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9 users have voted.

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

QMS's picture

.
This line makes a very good point ..

or wherever the USA PTB want to own but not care for

which would seem to be the entire planet. Like if you broke it, you own it. The follow
on to that should be if you 'own' it you have to fix it and take care of it. From the edict
of Cap'n Q, 2025 CE. Wink

Enjoy your pizza pie!

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4 users have voted.

question everything

enhydra lutris's picture

@QMS

tune, a great start to the morning.

If one issues an edict, solely in electronic form, is it then an e-edict? If so, should it be hyphenated, or possibly dotted ( e.edict ) or simply put out there unpunctuated "eedict"?

be well and have a good one

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3 users have voted.

That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

QMS's picture

@enhydra lutris

covering her mouth and exclaiming
(when the flasher shows his thing)
Eeeh, Dick!

Glad your path to revival is progressing.

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question everything

Sima's picture

@QMS
I was thinking that too! Great minds think alike Smile Or... something Smile

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2 users have voted.

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Sima's picture

@QMS

And the follow on of having to fix it and care for it if you own it are perfect. Too bad none of our leaders seem to think that way...

Ohh, that song was GREAT! Thank you Smile Smile

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2 users have voted.

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

enhydra lutris's picture

price control information. Did the list of specifics cover eggs? Though many retailers seem to be always out of eggs, some even rededicating the space where they used to normally be to other products like cottage cheese, it seems that they are still plentiful for those that can buy, store and use in volume. Costco has pallets full, but only in flats of 2dz, 5dz, or 40 jumbo.

I cannot help but wonder just how long it took to distribute the approved prices list throughout the empire and how it was enforced. Did those prices also apply to the Goths? What about the Gepids and were they even really a thing then?

It is not raining nor is it supposed to today, but it is current;y a day to day thing and the prognosis can change at any time, including the next hour or two, so one never knows.

be well and have a good one

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3 users have voted.

That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Sima's picture

@enhydra lutris
Yep, it applied to eggs. One could, at maximum, charge 4 denarii for 4 eggs. As for how well the edict worked, it didn't. It didn't apply to Goths or the Gepids, as they weren't part of the Empire. And even in the empire, before Diocletian abdicated, the edict wasn't super effective. I think making the money, which was after all based on actual gold and silver and so on (our isn't anymore!) stable after years of it being debased by sticking, say, bronze into the gold and so on, helped more than the edict. Still, the edict was an attempt, right?

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4 users have voted.

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Lookout's picture

Snow flurries earlier this AM and still in the 20's. Below freezing till tomorrow. Still have a few cabbages under row cover, but should be able to open them up next week as we head for 70 F. Don't like the weather here? Wait 15 minutes.

Clear enough to be gaining some solar heat. Currently no propane burning, just the sun heating the house at the moment.

We enjoyed exploring some of the Roman sites in the UK years ago. I think our interstate highways may persist like the old Roman roads.

Hope all is well on the homestead. Thanks for the OT!

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

Sima's picture

@Lookout
but I think you are right. Roman roads were strong and permanent. Ours will be too, at least the base of the roads (maybe not the tarmac, not sure).

We are using the sun's heat right now too, although the fire in the woodstove does get built when it's super cold at night. We had some super cold nights at around 18. Now they are around 45! Just a week or two later. We would have had some cabbages left but.. we ate them all, Hah! Have a good one Smile

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3 users have voted.

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

soryang's picture

@Lookout @Lookout

...in recent years. It's been 8 years since I quit OTR driving. One thing I noticed in the 10 years of driving across the US before that, is that the interstate system is not built to withstand the pressure from the typical 40 ton gross weight limit tractor trailer. This is why the right lane in particular is often rutted from the wheel pressure. When I quit driving in 2016, the pitiful condition of disrepair of crumbling interstate highways was obvious. A considerable repair effort took place after that, but much of it was superficial, just putting the blacktop over a crushed roadbed. The foundations of many sections of highly traveled interstates needed the entire foundation of the roadbed reconstructed, and in many places, that was not done. After more than 20 years, the roadbed of interstate 4 here was rebuilt. I don't what the condition of the interstates in Illinois, Arkansas, or Missouri is now but it was awful then and it was just being treated superficially. I hope they fixed it. But what it shows is that under heavy loads typical on the interstates, the roads deteriorate, and are subject to rules of depreciation like any other construction asset. They won't last unless they are completely restored every 20 to 30 years depending on the traffic level.

If there aren't any trucks they would probably last like Roman roads.

(edited to fix some typos)

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語必忠信 行必正直

Sima's picture

@soryang
Nor did they have tarmac/asphalt as the surface. The roads were stone, dirt, concrete (at times), but mostly stone. I wonder if 18 wheelers could even go over stone like that? Wonder if the speed of the vehicles, carts and horses and walkers are slower than say 55 mph cars, has something to do with the length of life of the road?

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4 users have voted.

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

has always turned to shit. Fascinating that Diocletian had such a practical grasp of economics and a practical solution.
Wish we had a world leader around today to take control of inflation!
It is 24 deg. and feels like it. Yesterday was 23 deg. with a wind chill at 19 deg. I will take it. It is the little things.
I read that inflation for we common people has increased 46% since 2020. This is using the old calculation table before food, fuel, and housing was discarded from inflation rate.
That we are being screwed is just history repeating itself. I am ready for a Diocletian.
Thanks for the OT, chica!

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5 users have voted.

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

QMS's picture

@on the cusp

the dollar is worth less now than before?
It was supposed to be a secret. People are
catching on tho. When the paycheck no longer
covers the bills, well it is pretty obvious to those
still thinking among us. Criminal distribution of our
funds is being exposed, which is good in a way.
What is a poor boy to do? Maybe go to mars Wink

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3 users have voted.

question everything

Sima's picture

@on the cusp
Hope it warms up to normal for you soon. We might be getting high winds next week. I will believe it when they actually happen, but that's the forecast.

I wish Diocletian's edict had worked. He had some good ideas, but unfortunately, there was really no way to make everyone follow them. After all, if the army/cops/politicians don't wanna enforce the edict, what can one do? History repeats itself over and over doesn't it? Must be human nature.

As for inflation for the commoners, yea, I think prices have increased that much. Just shopping at the grocery store has. It used to cost me about 200$ for about 10 days of food, now it's about 300$. And that increase is just in the last 4 or 5 years...

Ahh well, have a great weekend!

up
3 users have voted.

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

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1 user has voted.
Sima's picture

@gjohnsit
The stuff TPTB are doing is sickening, isn't it? And yea, crypto is dog sh$t as are capital markets controlled by banks and so on.

up
4 users have voted.

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

is gonna retire at the end of his term. We must endure him until 2027. The oldsters are thinning out.
Finally.

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3 users have voted.

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Sima's picture

@on the cusp
Don't let the door hit ya in the hinnie on the way out!

up
2 users have voted.

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Sima's picture

Typo!

up
2 users have voted.

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

QMS's picture

@lotlizard
.
Whip Inflation Now. Somehow we the people were supposed to
fix what the FED and bankster policy had wrought by holding our
collective breath until we all died trying? Didn't work out very good.

Whip Inflation Now (WIN) was a 1974 attempt to spur a grassroots movement to combat inflation in the US, by encouraging personal savings and disciplined spending habits in combination with public measures, urged by U.S. President Gerald Ford.

Most figured out that savings accounts pay less interest than increasing inflation. How was
that supposed to help? Stop spending and lose money in a savings account. Quite a leap of
illogic. Probably didn't make much of a dent in the machine. And what was the 'public' AKA
government doing about it? Nothing much. DOA

up
3 users have voted.

question everything