Open Thread: Thurs 09 Jan 2025 - The Decline of the Eastern Roman Empire
The Decline of the Eastern, aka Byzantine, Roman Empire
I happened across an article about the decline of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire a week or so ago and found it quite interesting. It's called 'What Brought the Decline of the Eastern Roman Empire - and What Can We Learn from It?' by Lev Cosijns and Haggai Olshanetsky.
Basically, the authors contend that the supposed decline does not seem to be a result of climate change. Yes, a volcano exploded in Iceland in 536 AD (and others erupted throughout the following decade) and the volcanic dust, etc, did block the sun in various places and perhaps caused a lowering of temperature - maybe around the world, maybe not. But there aren't any textual records of this happening (dust veils and extreme cold) in the Eastern (Byzantine) empire in the mid 500's.
The authors note that first instance of the Justinianic plague in the Eastern Empire happened from 541 to 544. This supposedly caused the death of millions of people in the Mediterranean (and other) areas. However, the authors of the paper don't think the plague started the decline of the Eastern Empire. In fact they see the 6th C as one of prosperity with economic stability for the Eastern Empire.
Detail of a contemporary portrait of Justinian I in the Basilica of San Vitale, Ravenna. Nice earrings! From worldhistory.org
Quote from the article:
It seems the Roman Empire entered the 7th century at the peak of its power. But Roman miscalculations, and their failure against their Persian opponents, brought the entire area into a downward spiral. This left the two empires weak and allowed Islam to rise.
I agree, and think the Empire in the east did have a lot of power under Justinian. After all, he managed to take back parts of what was once the Western Roman Empire, like Italy, southern Spain and North Africa. So the Imperial territory widened, and trade was doing well.
People have been talking about how the changes in our American Republic are leading to the USA being like the Roman Empire. And they talk about the decline and fall of said Empire. But, but... which one of the said Empires? And is it the actual end of the Empire, or the end of the Kingdom, the Republic, the one main Empire, the western Empire, the eastern Empire, the Holy Roman Empire? Heh, lots to choose from!
There are many, many parallels in all of them, and in what's happening in the USA right now, and what has happened many, many times over many, many centuries and millennia in history and probably pre-history. For example, those in power favor their children, right, Biden? right, Trump? They favor their friends. Rich, very rich, people get control, right, Musk? The 'Republic' continues, but the Senate is controlled by the rich and only really has a sort of ornamental control. That is how the Roman Republic ended around 0 AD or so, and those in power, rich, those in charge of the army, those related to these people, took control and the Empire started. It continued for a long time, around 500+ years in the West, 1000+ years in the East or longer. My Latin teacher at Penn always used to joke that the Roman Empire didn't end until WWI started with the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand. After all he was the last Holy Roman Emperor.
Thanks for reading! Here's the open thread - remember, everything is interesting if you dive deep enough, so tell us about where you're diving!
Comments
Happy Thursday!
Hope the day is going well for everyone. It's cleaning day here, at least in a couple of rooms downstairs. Nikko's toys have to be picked up and sorted! My greenhouse cleaning has come to a sudden end, as the sink won't drain. Might have to have a plumber in, it seems to be blocked about 15 ft under the house. Fun fun! NOT.
What's up with you? How you doing? Have a great Thursday!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Good morning...
A cold 20F here this AM. Snow due tomorrow...how much is yet to be seen. At least the sun is shinning today and helping to heat the house.
Empires come and empires go. Will we accept our own decline? I doubt it, but we'll see.
Thanks for the OT!
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Cold!
Brrrr. I don't think we are going to accept our Empire's decline, as you note, few do.
Great Music, thank you!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Thanks for the OT
It feels like we should learn from history, but other than the nuts and bolts of the process, everything else seem like (to me) 20/20 hindsight. When we are not actively shedding blood in wars, we are continually in economic conflict, from nations down to individuals in competition with each other. The only thing I see in history as constant is the lust for power and endless greed, all justified by whatever mythology the powers invent to rally us along.
Science, engineering, education, art, medicine has their time line, their histories, but in the end they all wind up in the harness of the wealthy and powerful. We have gone beyond single monopolies to a few entities having multiple monopolies with hardly any push back. Monopolies don't encourage innovation, they prolong the profit taking. If nothing changes school kids will be learning THEIR version of history and call it education.
State Farm canceled insurance policies
.
in California 4 months ago including the area that is being wiped out now.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/01/state-farm-canceled-hundreds-pa...
Why? Because they would have lost too much money if houses burned down.
I don’t know the answer to what insurances are doing, but there must be one. I can imagine executives opening bottles of champagne and laughing at how they acted just in time.
One billionaire real estate hedge fund manager put out a call for private firemen to protect his home and money didn’t matter. Sure one battalion could save his home during 100 mile per hour winds.
Gotta wonder how many of Kamala’s prisoners are fighting the firestorm for $2-5 a day?
Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.
While California is burning
.
Biden sent $500 million to Ukraine. The total amount sent to Ukraine is $175 BILLION. Just imagine what that money could have done for America.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/01/biden-announces-500-million-ukr...
Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.
I had Sam watch this video
I won’t repeat what she said to me, but it was along the lines of FJB!
Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.
They are all on the same team.
BFF
I wonder if Kamala heard what made Obama laugh?
Edited to add this as it seems to fit.
I can’t believe that the pomp and ceremony
is going on while California burns.
That was my first thought when I saw the picture of all the people gathered at the capitol when Jimmy’s coffin arrived today.
That’s on top of the news about how much money Biden is sending to Israel and Ukraine. But then they have lavish state dinners for the parasite class while millions of children go to bed hungry.
And why wasn’t Michelle Obama at the funeral?
Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.
Really, why should she be? Funerals are for the living, not
the dead. The dead benefit not at all. Some, close to the decedent attend to mourn and seek some vague sort of closure. Others show up to see and be seen and indulge in some vague sort of virtue signalling or importance signalling or rank signalling or whatever. I seriously doubt that any but a few attendees were family or otherwise close to the late Mr. Carter. and I seriously doubt that any had the emotional capacity to mourn him.
be well and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Seriously?
Good grief.
Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.
Michelle refused to stand behind her man
Like all the other wives.
Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.
LOL
VIVA! n/t
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Good afternoon, Sima, thanks for the info on Byzantium.
IMO, the Holy Roman Empire doesn't fit the model of most other empires, including the Roman Empire. Most empires have been founded by and centered on a specific nation state and the head of that nation state was also head of the empire. The roman empire, for example, was centered in Rome, Italy & ruled by the Roman head of state. The British Empire was centered in London, England, & ruled by the British Head of state.etc.
The Holy Roman Empire started with the Franks, mostly ruled by the Carolingians, in more or less France and wound up in more or less Austria, mostly ruled by the Hohenstaufens, but, not really. It was started by a Pope, who picked the Franks and Carolingians, but evolved to technically be run by whomever the electors elected and was a quasi pan-germanic thing in that respect, depending upon how one classifies Bohemia-Moravia. At whatever point "refrorms" made it's ruler elected by the likes of Hanover, Platine, Prussia and the like it wasn't really the same kind of thing as all of the other empires (Roman, Spanish, British,French, Russian, etc.)
Beyone that, it was dissolved in the 1800s when the then current "emperor" abdictated in favor or that Bonaparte Dude and became the French empire. Whatever was reconstituted later under that name wasn't really the same thing because of break and, iirc, the fact that the electors were no more and it was merely a momentary Austrian Empire.
(just my two cents worth)
Baking day, garbage day and more, sorry I'm late.
be well and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Good evening, sima!
My courses in world history were centuries packed in 3 months addressing very few aspects of each empire. The focus seemed to be social history and art and literature, the rise and fall due to wars, rebellions, or economic disasters were glossed over. Well, it was the 60s and very early 70s, after all.
That said, it always interests me when the history of empires is mentioned and discussed.
One thing that holds true is that they rise and they fall.
Techno humans won't change the pattern. Batteries do die.
I did visit the site where Archduke Ferdinand was visited by bullets, where the Persians messed with 300 Spartans, Where Napoleon got acquainted with the Waterloo-thingie, and where Constantine adapted that Christian thing to hold his over-expanded territory cohesively, among others. The visuals of the exact spot expanded my empty brain with info my college did not fill.
It is cold, rainy, makes anything outdoors totally suck here.
I have decided to drink and few beers and not worry about it because, like empires, the fall of the temperatures will rise.
Thanks so much for the OT. It brought back decades of memories for me.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Don't forget Phocas!
If I recall correctly, the only remaining historical sources we have on Emperor Phocas (602-610) were written by his enemies. But he must have had some friends somewhere to be allowed to do the damage he did, kind of like, I don't know, Dubya, or Biden...
The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.
Was Genghis
and his Golden Horde considered an empire?
Just asking because he conquered a lot of territory.
A couple of really nice sunny days here in the 50s. But colder weather coming Monday, down below freezing.
We be ready.
Thanks for the OT
Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.