Open Thread - 08-30-24 - Post Constitutional America

Where are we headed in this country, post Constitution? Have you given it any thought?

The US Constitution is one of the most, if not the most, enlightened documents in the history of mankind. It was meant to curtail the power of the federal government, to keep it in check. Notice I used the word "was" since it seems like there no longer are any checks on our government.

inverted constitution.jpg
Constitution (Preamble) in Distress - Inverted by JtC
Attribution: Pxhere

The past several decades has seen the Constitution trampled upon. It has been altered by courts and ignored by politicians to the point where it seems but a distant dream of a civil society. Note, as the Constitution unravels so does American society.

What may replace the Constitution that was supposed to safeguard the populace from a runaway government?

Who may determine the new set of laws, post Constitution? The Democrats, the Republicans, the Uniparty?

Whomever may prevail it's a sure bet it wont be We The People.

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the Constitution is, and will be, whatever the Supreme Court says it is. With the possibility of one or more justices retiring in the next four years amplifies the importance of the 2024 election.

That is, if we have an election this year. Which increasingly, in my humble opinion, becomes more doubtful by the day.

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QMS's picture

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Sometimes I think mob rule is preferable to the system the government has
morphed into. Self preservation would not require global military confrontations.
So many cancerous growths which affect society are not enshrined in the
Constitution. The Federal reserve is one. Corporations are another. Many of our
basic human rights have been legislated and litigated out of existence.

On one hand, I think a new constitution needs to be written to reflect present
conditions in society. On the other hand, who would write such a document without
selfish greed motivating the essay? Maintaining the spirit of the original screed
emphasizing freedom and equality may be a challenge.

Thanks for the stimulating OT!

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10 users have voted.

truth is considered foreign influence, world peace is a threat to national security

@QMS
You've put your finger on the main problem with altering the Constitution:

On one hand, I think a new constitution needs to be written to reflect present
conditions in society. On the other hand, who would write such a document without
selfish greed motivating the essay?
Maintaining the spirit of the original screed
emphasizing freedom and equality may be a challenge.

Who indeed could be trusted to rewrite the Constitution? Nowadays, many, if not most, new laws are written by corporations and then given to the law makers to pass. I envision rewriting a new constitution would be much the same.

Much has been said that the Constitution was written by wealthy landowners for wealthy landowners. Have things really changed that much since then. Obviously not with the advent of Citizens United and the proclamation that corporations are people too.

As I've said many times over the years, "The struggle is not horizontal, it is vertical". It's been a struggle of the working class versus the monied class from time immemorial. The monied class wont let a piece of paper, either new or old, get in their way.

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9 users have voted.

ain’t nothing wrong with
the constitution it’s the lack of enforcement
of its principles

gov’t is necessary because people
unchecked will do evil

gov’t is full of unchecked people

oroboros@tae comments

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8 users have voted.

Ya got to be a Spirit, cain't be no Ghost. . .

Explain Bldg #7. . . still waiting. . .

If you’ve ever wondered whether you would have complied in 1930’s Germany,
Now you know. . .
sign at protest march

@Tall Bald and Ugly
to agree:

ain’t nothing wrong with
the constitution it’s the lack of enforcement
of its principles

What's the old saying about money and evil:

gov’t is necessary because people
unchecked will do evil

gov’t is full of unchecked people

Add power to the list and the root will grow unchecked.

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6 users have voted.

Around 25 years ago I was working at a call center for Directv. This was when Bush pushed through all that Patriot laws garbage. I remember telling someone there that we were losing our rights. The reply was that "but they attacked us." One thing has nothing to do with the other. We've been attacked before this.

Here in Florida, these idiots voted to make it 60% to amend the Florida Constitution instead of a simple majority. That way it's harder to pass anything which actually helps people.

I've been going to PT most mornings. Todays was cancelled because they are putting in a new system. Most mornings I have to listen to these old men complaining about politics. So far, I've learned that the U.S. has abandoned Israel, that the reason V.A. benefits were cut so that they could give more money to "The Welfare," and that California is giving everyone a "free house."

Sometimes I feel like I'm either on the wrong planet or a different species. Does anyone actually read, study, or investigate anything anymore? Are we really so propagandized that no one sees reality.

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QMS's picture

@Enchantress
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it is just not the common agreements most people bounce off each other

kinda sucks you have to go to PT. Guess I was fortunate with my hip
replacement in that the PT lived 2 doors down, so it was performed
in my domicile.

good luck!

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9 users have voted.

truth is considered foreign influence, world peace is a threat to national security

@Enchantress

Are we really so propagandized that no one sees reality.

That's how the will of the people is subverted. It's insidious, and it works.

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9 users have voted.

that we are still using a 234-yo document to run our affairs of gov't and the rest. Most countries freshen theirs up more frequently or redo them completely to meet modern needs. Not so the US, which over-venerates the Framers making them into demigods of wisdom and making their document unamendable except in rare circumstances.

Then we get the further absurdity of 5-6 Scotus geniuses, not exactly unbiased, who claim to also be historians as they cherry-pick their way into discerning what the Framers were thinking 2 centuries ago to dictate how we should govern ourselves today.

Just getting one substantive constitutional amendment today is near impossible. This is in part due to the high hurdle set up in the document, and in important part due to the increased partisan divide today which devalues compromise for the greater good in favor of preserving party political power.

That said, the main structural areas of the Constitution that need reform or outright scrapping would be 1) the Electoral College. Go to straight popular vote like every other country in the world. 2) the Senate -- needs to be more proportional in representation like the House. Absurd situation today of a tiny pop state like WY (576k) having the same number of senators as CA (39m) with 68x greater population. 3) Constitutional amendment process. Hurdle is set way too high. Bring it down to 55-60% needed in both chambers of Congress, not the super-supermajority of two-thirds in the document. 4) Age limits for P -- 75 yrs old. 5) Scotus -- 18 yr term and that's all.

Some changes I'd like to see, but of course most are impossible w/o a constitutional amendment, which it itself is impossible these days.

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@wokkamile

1) the Electoral College. Go to straight popular vote like every other country in the world.

2) the Senate -- needs to be more proportional in representation like the House. Absurd situation today of a tiny pop state like WY (576k) having the same number of senators as CA (39m) with 68x greater population.

4) Age limits for P -- 75 yrs old.

5) Scotus -- 18 yr term and that's all.

I disagree:

3) Constitutional amendment process. Hurdle is set way too high. Bring it down to 55-60% needed in both chambers of Congress, not the super-supermajority of two-thirds in the document.

I would suggest not leaving that up to a Congress that has shown disregard to the wants of the people. That should be determined by direct vote by the people, leave the grifters out of it. They're supposed to reflect the will of their constituents, but time after time, they prove that they don't. Lobbyists and corporate money are their masters.

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snoopydawg's picture

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Zuckenburg just told republicans that he felt bad for letting Biden tell him what content to censor and promises to do better….as in not to censor anymore?

Last week — on the first day of the Democratic National Convention, indeed — Meta permanently banned The Cradle from Facebook and Instagram, the holding company’s most trafficked social media properties. Narwani now stands accused of “praising terrorist organizations” and engaging in “incitement to violence.” This ruling came without warning. All Narwani got was this:

Your account, or activity on it, does not follow our community guidelines. No one can see or find your account and you can’t use it. All your information will be permanently deleted. You cannot request a review of this decision.

https://scheerpost.com/2024/08/29/patrick-lawrence-the-sound-of-enforced...

Well maybe he won’t do it for Biden, but bets are off when it comes to Israel’s orders.

Journalists around the world are being censored for Israel. Think you can vote yourself way out of Israel‘s control over government?

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“When out of fear you twist the lesser evil into the lie that it is something good, you eventually rob people of the capacity to distinguish between good and evil.”
~ Hannah Arendt

QMS's picture

@snoopydawg
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the clapping congress was both disgusting and revealing
in their fealty to the zionistas via nutty yahoo

embarrassing to a country in a so called 'democracy'
genocide is now a right to defend? Bibi shit.
congress only represents their wallets

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9 users have voted.

truth is considered foreign influence, world peace is a threat to national security

@snoopydawg
hedging his bets, as all wind socks do.

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5 users have voted.
QMS's picture

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broke and lonely

nothing to do with the theme today, but just wanted to play it here

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4 users have voted.

truth is considered foreign influence, world peace is a threat to national security

@QMS
but I'm badly bent.

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Cassiodorus's picture

-- as has been pointed out above, is that the functions of government are "parted out" to private corporations like Meta, which have no Constitutional restrictions.

Another way is with Constitutional interpretation, which was shredded when the current Supreme Court was created. The current Supreme Court is laser-focused upon telling you which rights you don't have.

But, yeah, the idea that the Constitution protects us from anything comes and goes. Nowadays it mostly looks like it's going, because we are a society in decline. Maybe they will revive Plessy v. Ferguson or overturn Loving v. Virginia?

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“One of the things I love about the American people is that we can hold many thoughts at once” - Kamala Harris

@Cassiodorus
they have there, thanks to SCOTUS. The government is getting more brazen with it now that it's out in the open:

One way they do it as has been pointed out above, is that the functions of government are "parted out" to private corporations like Meta, which have no Constitutional restrictions.

You've got that right, it's ass backwards, the Supreme Court is supposed to check the Constitution which determines the rights that the government doesn't have:

Another way is with Constitutional interpretation, which was shredded when the current Supreme Court was created. The current Supreme Court is laser-focused upon telling you which rights you don't have.

The real danger lies in a situation where the Constitution is suspended and the law becomes whatever the government says it is. There are several scenarios floating around that could very well make that a reality. If that were to happen chances are very good that the interim government will not be benevolent.

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Cassiodorus's picture

@JtC if some ay-hole were to stand up and say "the Constitution is suspended!" Does the Constitution have provisions for its own suspension? If so, I must have missed it. The original document was weaker than what we have now and the Fourteenth Amendment changed a lot by making the Bill of Rights apply to the states.

Right now it seems as if the Powers That Be are content to pull the strings of those who are "official." Since they are all in the same control net, you see things like Presidents beginning wars (ignoring the War Powers Act), which was briefly regarded as a Constitutional problem before the Supreme Court said "yeah, whatever." If everyone in office is in cahoots, there is no Constitution because nobody is placed into a position where they can object in any effective way. I don't remember the name of the case.

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“One of the things I love about the American people is that we can hold many thoughts at once” - Kamala Harris

usefewersyllables's picture

@Cassiodorus

after the first warhead detonates on US soil, or the complete financial collapse occurs (whichever comes first), the constitution will be nothing more than a distant memory- no matter which color jersey the nominal “president” wears.

It won’t be suspended- it will simply be ignored.

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Twice bitten, permanently shy.

@Cassiodorus often that the Constitution wasn't the best document the Framers could produce -- it was merely the compromise document they could pass at the time.

Also still underappreciated is how Scotus has arrogated to itself over years and decades more and more power to be the final arbiter of what the Constitution says and means. Correct me if wrong, but I'm not aware of anything chiseled in stone that gives Scotus the sole say to decide what is constitutional. Congress also has a role.

Congress needs to reassert its given (Con) power and take away much of that Scotus power. In key policy areas, write bills that include a jurisdiction stripping provision preventing review by Scotus and lower fed courts. Very simple. And constitutional.

We've all gotten complacent, libs and cons, about Court power -- it doesn't have to be this way.

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enhydra lutris's picture

Only the executive has troops. Allegedly they are not to be used as police, but who has the power to enforce that? The states have Polizei, and highly militarized ones at that, but since when are they gonna stand up for the rights of the individual? Some corporations have troops, but which side are they on?

be well and have a good one

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7 users have voted.

That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

@enhydra lutris
of the Constitution, Congress's abrogation of the war powers:

Why the Founding Fathers Would Object to Today’s Military

Today, we live in a state of constant, potentially endless war -- always, without exception, undeclared; invariably by choice (rhetorically disguised as necessity); frequently in secret (to increase the license to act, while minimizing oversight and accountability); often labeled war (to engender fear and urgency), but just as often labeled something other than war (for reasons of expediency, convenience and legal circumvention); initiated and prosecuted by a now permanently imperial presidency, largely devoid of congressional consultation and consent before the fact, sometimes even with minimal congressional notification after the fact.

Such concentration of executive power, such abrogation of legislative authority and responsibility, such marginalization of popular consent would seem to be the ingredients of tyrannical government the founders said the people had the right and the duty to overthrow.

The founders also, we well know, had a pronounced fear of and antipathy toward standing armies -- large, permanent, professional military establishments -- because of the dual temptations for domestic oppression and international adventurism by those in power, the drain on public resources, and, not least, the not-infrequent aberrant behavior of those in uniform.

This fear led them to invest Congress with specific power to determine the size and composition of the armed services, make rules to govern those forces, mobilize and oversee the federal use of the militia, control the size and distribution of the military’s budget, and, most importantly, declare war.

These enumerated congressional powers and the designation of the president as commander in chief of the armed forces were designed to ensure civilian control of the military -- ultimate direction, oversight, and decision-making authority over the military in the hands of properly elected and appointed civilian officials -- a concept that has become a cardinal precept and precondition for democracies everywhere. And it was this fear of standing armies that led the founders to prefer the citizen-soldier to the professional. “When we assumed the Soldier,” said Washington, “we did not lay aside the Citizen.” And from Jefferson: “Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state.” They were not anti-military; far from it. Rather, they were anti-militaristic and anti-interventionist, preferring active, regular commercial and diplomatic engagement, not military involvement, with the rest of the world.

Today, we have much of what the founders would have feared most: a totally professional force, largely unrepresentative of American society, increasingly alienated from the public it is supposed to serve, huge in size, gluttonously expensive, more heavily and lethally armed than any other force in the world, deployed all across the globe all of the time, a source of recurring provocation and adventurism, principally prepared for a preferred American way of war that is no longer relevant, continuously guilty over time of socially and politically irresponsible behaviors (from combat atrocities to internal sexual assault), and singularly at the forefront of both global and domestic militarization (not least by virtue of America’s place as the world’s leading arms dealer).

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enhydra lutris's picture

@JtC

foreign entanglements and non-enforcement of the provisions requiring Congress to declare war, 3 abhorrent things.

be well and have a good one

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10 users have voted.

That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --