The Big Question: Will Sanders Folks Vote for Hillary in Nov? Probably Not. (Data)

Much is at stake in November. If enough people do not show up to vote for the Democratic nominee, a Republican will be elected as president, and the GOP may very well control all three branches of government. In addition, the next president will likely have a rare opportunity to swing the court dramatically to the left or to the right for the next several decades. Republicans are offering a slate of presidential candidates that is especially horrific; much of the world visibly cringes at the thought of the current front-runner, Donald Trump, being sworn into office. To avoid many nightmares, the Democratic nominee simply must win the presidential election. The alternative is unthinkable.

Here’s the thing: I do not believe Hillary Clinton will win in the general election; those who are doing their best to see her become the Democratic nominee may very well win that battle but lose the war. Clinton voters and Sanders voters want VERY different things. Their largest area of disagreement is about Clinton’s character: 70% of Sanders voters (about 4.5 million people, or one third of everyone who has already voted so far in the Democratic primaries) answers NO to the following question, according to exit poll results:

“Is Clinton Honest and Trustworthy?”

And because they do not trust Clinton, and most politicians in general, many Sanders supporters are resolved to no longer play what they have come to see as a highly rigged game. Those who are more enlightened will still vote on down-ticket races, but others will simply stay home. Therefore, my recommendation is that those who truly care about SCOTUS do everything they can to ensure that Bernie Sanders becomes the Democratic nominee. Democrats have a choice in this election: we can either harness and leverage the excited energy and passion that Sanders has been unleashing around the country, or we can choose to swim upstream against it. Heaven help us if we collectively choose door number two.

  1. What Evidence do I Have for this Absurd Claim?
  2. Have I Simply Quantified What Many of Us Have Been Thinking?
  3. Summary of Key Findings
  4. Conclusions / Reflections
  5. Project Details / Description

1) What Evidence do I Have for this Absurd Claim?

About a month ago I read a diary: “[Daily Kos] Folks, we've got a turnout problem.“ A noticeable pattern was emerging after the first three primaries/caucuses: turnout at Democratic ones has generally been down from levels in 2008, while turnout for Republican ones has generally been up [note: for the remainder of this document, the word primary will be used to reference both primaries and caucuses]. I began an investigation to better understand how these trends might impact results in November because they concerned me; I also sought to investigate what was then merely an instinct: that when all the counting was done, Hillary will lose. Seth Abraham describes the situation well in his piece, The Democrats Are Flawlessly Executing a 10-Point Plan to Lose the 2016 Presidential Election.

2. Nominate the only person who can reunite the Republican Party once Trump failing to get the nomination has fractured it beyond repair.

Nothing unites Republicans quite like hatred of the Clintons. If Trump’s supporters are denied seeing their favored candidate win the nomination despite his lead in delegates earned through primaries and caucuses — and make no mistake, they will be so denied — their impulse to bolt the Republican Party completely will (and can) only be stopped by a Clinton candidacy.

[...]

3. Fracture the Democratic Party by broadly supporting the Clinton camp’s attempts to smear Bernie Sanders and his supporters.

[...]

5. Fail to nominate their most popular candidate, in particular the one with the best chance of beating Ted Cruz or John Kasich in the fall.

[...]

8. Do nothing whatsoever to address outstanding concerns about the character, integrity, and judgment of the Party’s front-runner.

Clinton has refused to release her Wall Street speeches when she could easily do so, making it look like she has something to hide. Clinton has refused to clearly articulate any mistakes she might have made with respect to her private email server, making it look like she exercises bad judgment and then has no ability or willingness to self-analyze or admit error — precisely the quality so many people find unnerving in Donald Trump.

[...]

10. Ignore the youth vote.

I wanted to investigate my hunch, find quantifiable data to prove or disprove my concerns. I think I found it: one third of everyone who has already voted so far in the Democratic primaries is not convinced that Clinton is honest and trustworthy. And to many people, this concern is a really big fucking deal.

PROJECT GOAL:

  • Find quantifiable data related to possible voter turnout issues in the general election.

PLAN:

  • Analyze voting turnout results and exit polling statistics for the primaries that have already been conducted.

KEY SOURCES:

2) Have I Simply Quantified What Many of Us Have Been Thinking?

Will Hillary win the general election if she becomes the Democratic nominee? Will enough people show up to vote for her? Isn’t this question the “elephant in the room,” the question on most everyone’s minds but rarely acknowledged directly? I see it as the core concern behind the question asked in so many diaries: “Will you support Hillary Clinton if she wins the nomination?”

What factors play into this concern? We know that Hillary and Bill are deeply disliked by many on the right … we can predict that these folks will come out in large numbers in order to vote against her. We also know that voters on both sides of the aisle have raised issues about Clinton’s “character, integrity, and judgment,” as Abraham puts it; a partial list includes

  • the appearance of impropriety of many kinds (industry lobbyists and ex-financial regulators hosting expensive fundraisers for Clinton’s presidential campaign, the timing of donations to the Clinton Foundation (including those by the fossil fuel industry) and corresponding actions taken by the State Department (which HRC headed at the time), the infamous highly-paid speeches to Goldman Sachs, etc.)
  • The Clintons have simultaneously depended on black voters and thrown black voters under the bus for years now” — Alicia Garza, co-founder of BLM; similar but slightly less strident remarks have also been made by Michelle Alexander (who quotes John Lewis) and others.
  • an ongoing FBI investigation over “use of a private email server during her time as secretary of State” and also "the possible intersection of Clinton Foundation donations, the dispensation of State Department contracts and whether regular processes were followed";
  • concerns that Clinton may be getting preferential treatment in that investigation.

President Obama has stated, “I guarantee that there is no political influence in any investigation conducted by the Justice Department, or the FBI, not just in this case, but in any case,” but little else has been done to address the above concerns, other than the Clinton campaign rebuking Sanders for attempting to impugn her integrity.

Will offensive remarks made by campaign surrogates to younger voters be forgotten? Is it even possible to forget feminist icon Gloria Steinem insinuating that today’s young feminists are sex maniacs (“Where are the boys? The boys are with Bernie”) or Madeleine Albright’s attempts to shame them (“There’s a special place in hell for women who don’t help each other!”) Older women argue that young ones are voting against their own best interests if they support Sanders, that they are too immature and naive to understand the reality of glass ceilings. People of color have described the disrespect they feel when others judge them as voting against their interests by supporting Clinton … why would young women not feel similar disrespect when others judge them in the same way because their support for Sanders? Could it be that young voters actually care more about other issues, such as being able to find a job and pay off debts after having forked over not-so-small fortunes to pay for a college education, or whether they will experience an eco-disaster in their own lifetime? Is it possible that when they carefully weigh the pros and cons, breaking glass ceilings ranks almost indulgently high on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs in comparison to lower-order ones that are much more pressing?

The biggest issue is that even my guy friends can't support themselves, find a job, or even think about having a family while all these executives, BOTH men AND women, are paid hundreds of times what their employees are and they are telling me why my opinion isn’t informed.

How much allegiance do young voters have to the Democratic Party, anyway? Will they fall into line to vote for Hillary? After they have watched Bernie expressing their hopes and dreams, and seen those dreams crushed by indifferent elders whose “financial situation is more or less OK”? And what about another critical demographic: independents. Did you know that their number is now at record highs?

“An average 43% of Americans identified politically as independents in 2014, establishing a new high in Gallup telephone poll trends back to 1988.”

How often do we hear Clinton supporters complaining that “Sanders is not a real Democrat”, and now even Hillary herself seems to be fanning those flames. WTF? Are independents listening? Will they remember these taunts come November? If independents are not considered real Democrats during primary season, where does the expectation come from that they will compliantly vote according to the demands of their tormentors in the general? Abraham writes:

By freezing Sanders and his platform out of the Democratic Party altogether, it ensures that not only will Clinton lose many Sanders supporters — which will already happen pursuant to step #5 of the Democrats plan to lose the White House — but also that she will lose most or all of the independent voters that Sanders has thus far been winning over her by 30 to 40 points. Indeed, Clinton has done everything she can do to signal that neither Sanders’ views nor his supporters will have any place in her Administration should she win the White House — which callous disregard of the Democratic base substantially decreases her chances of ever occupying that building.

3) Summary of Key Findings

TOP THREE AREAS OF DISAGREEMENT BETWEEN CLINTON AND SANDERS VOTERS
Clinton Voters Sanders Voters
Is clinton honest and trustworthy? Yes 86% (7,584,448)  
No   71% (4,598,955)
Satisfied if clinton wins the nomination? Yes 98% * (7,198,685)
No 51% * (2,502,316)
Candidate quality that matters most Has the right experience 46% (4,043,386)
Honest and Trustworthy 46% (3,024,886)
TOTAL NUMBER OF PRIMARY VOTERS: 8,858,380 6,510,190

* See section “2.2 Exit Polling in Moderate States” for more information

The largest area of disagreement between Clinton and Sanders voters relates to Clinton’s character: 70% of Sanders voters (about 4.5 million people, or one third of everyone who has already voted so far in the Democratic primaries) answered NO to the following question on exit polls:

“Is Clinton Honest and Trustworthy?”

On the other side of the spectrum, 86% of Clinton folks (about 7.5 million people) answered YES.

Compounding the impact of this difference of opinion is the third largest area of disagreement between the two groups: “candidate quality that matters most”. Intriguingly, the attribute “Honest and Trustworthy” is simultaneously rated the MOST important attribute by Sanders voters and the LEAST important attribute by Clinton voters. In other words, Clinton fails the most important test that most Sanders voters have for a presidential candidate, while Clinton voters collectively view those concerns as badly placed and/or unimportant.

The second largest area of disagreement between the groups relates to satisfaction if Clinton becomes the Democratic nominee.

  • 98% of Clinton voters would be satisfied, but
  • 51% of all Sanders voters would not be satisfied.

Will sufficient numbers of people who believe that Clinton fails the most important test that they have for a presidential candidate actually vote for her in the general election? Note that whether or not she actually is honest and trustworthy is beside the point here — as the saying goes, perception is reality. Please think for a moment of a babysitter. Would you hire one to watch over your kids if you believe they lacked the single most important attribute that you want them to have? No f**king way, right? Would you force someone to hire a babysitter that did not meet the standards of that person?

The results of my research shows that there are millions of Sanders voters who do not trust HRC: 4,598,955 of them so far. And yet, those who support Clinton insist / demand that these folks vote for a person that they do not trust to be president if she becomes the Democratic nominee. I sincerely believe that many Clinton folks do not realize that their requests are heard in this way by Sanders folks; the Clinton folks would not be asking if they themselves did not admire and trust Clinton greatly, but they seem to find it difficult to comprehend that others simply do not perceive Clinton in the same way that they do. It is one thing to vote for a candidate that you simply think is “second best.” It is quite another thing to vote for a candidate that you think does not have the stuff that is necessary for the job.

Furthermore, the nomination process itself has been plagued with issues (huge lines and long waits, insufficient ballots, possible tampering with voter registration data, etc.). These issues have led many Sanders supporters to suspect that the election process itself may not / is not being conducted fairly, which further exacerbates the entire situation.

4) Conclusions / Reflections

I’m afraid my fears have been confirmed with this project. I believe that significant numbers of Sanders supporters, the ones who do not find her to be honest and trustworthy, will not vote for her in the general election. As a result, Democrats are taking a huge risk with SCOTUS if Clinton becomes the nominee. We may not approve, but “Bernie or Bust” is a very real trend. I believe that for those who are attracted to this movement, Clinton fails the most important test that they have for a presidential candidate.

The good news is that there is a solution to this dilemma, a solution that seems painfully obvious. Those who truly care about SCOTUS should nominate Bernie Sanders for the very simple reason that Sanders will attract more votes than Hillary Clinton in the general election. All the world — even the Pope, for goodness sake — has taken notice that Bernie Sanders is drawing enormous and excited crowds, by advocating the same ideals in 2016 that he has been consistently advocating for decades. Hot off the press is news that according to a new AP/Gfk poll,

[Sanders] has one clear advantage over his Democratic and Republican presidential rivals — a lot of people actually like him.

By 48 percent to 39 percent, more Americans have a favorable than an unfavorable opinion of Sanders, giving him the best net-positive rating in the field, according to a new Associated Press-GfK poll. Unlike the other candidates, Sanders also is doing better as more Americans get to know him: His favorable rating is up from an earlier AP-GfK poll.

Furthermore, unlike Clinton, Sanders also consistently beats ALL leading Republican candidates, in general election polling. And he also consistently beats conservative opponents by wider margins than Clinton.

  Bernie Sanders RCP Average Hillary Clinton RCP Average
Donald Trump Sanders +16.5 Clinton +10.6
Ted Cruz Sanders +10.1 Clinton +2.5
John Kasich Sanders +2.7 Kasich +6.6

Independents and millennials are highly attracted to Bernie, and Republicans even seem to have a thing for him too (link, link, link, link). In fact, Crossovers for Bernie is a group on Daily Kos that has been established better keep track of them.



Figure 1. Image found on the"Republicans for Bernie Sanders" facebook site.

When I am asked

Q. “Will you support Hillary Clinton if she wins the nomination?”

my answer now is

A. "Hillary will not win in November, which is why I am doing everything that I can now to help Bernie win the nomination. I recommend that you do the same, that is, if you truly care about SCOTUS."

5) Project Details / Description

I went down many false paths before I found the kind of data I was looking for, but here I will describe only the best ones as I explain my project results. One key step was to divide all of the states into three general categories based on their past voting behavior: progressive, conservative, and moderate. I examined presidential election records back through 1992, the year Bill Clinton first became president. More specifically, I identified which presidential candidate won each state in each election. Frankly, the results surprised me, because I was not aware that certain states voted along party lines with significant regularity.


“Progressive” States

A number of states share a remarkable pattern of consistently voting for the Democratic nominee in every presidential election:

  2012 2008 2004 2000 1996 1992 Electoral Votes
Massachusetts Obama Obama Kerry Gore Clinton Clinton 11
Illinois Obama Obama Kerry Gore Clinton Clinton 20
Hawaii Obama Obama Kerry Gore Clinton Clinton 4
Maine Obama Obama Kerry Gore Clinton Clinton 4
Vermont Obama Obama Kerry Gore Clinton Clinton 3
Minnesota Obama Obama Kerry Gore Clinton Clinton 10
Wisconsin Obama Obama Kerry Gore Clinton Clinton 10
Michigan Obama Obama Kerry Gore Clinton Clinton 16
Washington Obama Obama Kerry Gore Clinton Clinton 12

* states that have not yet voted in a primary are not listed

Note I am using the word “progressive” in a very specific and hopefully non-controversial way: any and all states that have this particular voting pattern qualify for this category. My original working assumption is that the Democratic nominee, be it Clinton or Sanders, will once again win these states in 2016. The total combined number of electoral votes for the above states is 90.

Information about 2016 voter turnout for the primaries in these states will be provided in a companion diary to be published soon.


“Conservative” States

My definition of “conservative” is defined in a similar fashion. These states share a pattern of consistently voting for the Republican nominee in every presidential election (Georgia varies slightly, but I made a judgment call to include it in this group anyway).

  2012 2008 2004 2000 1996 1992 Electoral Votes
Georgia Romney McCain W. Bush W. Bush Dole Clinton 16
Mississippi Romney McCain W. Bush W. Bush Dole H.W. Bush 6
Texas Romney McCain W. Bush W. Bush Dole H.W. Bush 38
South Carolina Romney McCain W. Bush W. Bush Dole H.W. Bush 9
Alabama Romney McCain W. Bush W. Bush Dole H.W. Bush 9
Oklahoma Romney McCain W. Bush W. Bush Dole H.W. Bush 7
Kansas Romney McCain W. Bush W. Bush Dole H.W. Bush 6
Alaska Romney McCain W. Bush W. Bush Dole H.W. Bush 3
Utah Romney McCain W. Bush W. Bush Dole H.W. Bush 6
Idaho Romney McCain W. Bush W. Bush Dole H.W. Bush 4
Nebraska Romney McCain W. Bush W. Bush Dole H.W. Bush 5

* states that have not yet voted in a primary are not listed

My original working assumption is that the Republican nominee, whoever that person may be, will win these states in 2016. The total combined number of electoral votes for the above states is 109.

Information about 2016 voter turnout for the primaries in these states will be provided in a companion diary to be published soon.


“Moderate” States

My definition of “moderate” consists of all states that do not meet either of the two previous definitions. These states have more of a mixed record of backing both Democratic and Republican candidates.

  2012 2008 2004 2000 1996 1992 Electoral Votes
Nevada Obama Obama W. Bush W. Bush Clinton Clinton 6
Louisiana Romney McCain W. Bush W. Bush Clinton Clinton 8
North Carolina Romney Obama W. Bush W. Bush Dole H.W. Bush 15
Iowa Obama Obama W. Bush W. Bush Clinton Clinton 6
Arizona Romney McCain W. Bush W. Bush Clinton H.W. Bush 11
Virginia Obama Obama W. Bush W. Bush Dole H.W. Bush 13
Florida Obama Obama W. Bush W. Bush Clinton H.W. Bush 29
Missouri Romney McCain W. Bush W. Bush Clinton Clinton 10
Ohio Obama Obama W. Bush W. Bush Clinton Clinton 18
Arkansas Romney McCain W. Bush W. Bush Clinton Clinton 6
Tennessee Romney McCain W. Bush W. Bush Clinton Clinton 11
New Hampshire Obama Obama Kerry W. Bush Clinton Clinton 4
Colorado Obama Obama W. Bush W. Bush Dole Clinton 9

* states that have not yet voted in a primary are not listed

The behavior of voters in these“moderate” states is less predictable than the behavior of voters in the other states, and so I decided I needed to pay special attention to them. The total combined number of electoral votes for the above states is 140.

Notes:

  • Total number of electoral votes for all states that have completed their primaries to date:
    90 + 109 + 140 = 339
  • Total number of electoral votes for all remaining states: 199
  • Total possible number of electoral votes: 339 + 199 = 538
  • Number of electoral votes required to win the presidency of the United States: 270 (a little more than half of the total available).

Information about 2016 voter turnout for the primaries in these states will be provided in a companion diary to be published soon.

5.1 Voter Turnout in Moderate States

At the end of the day, the most important numbers in any election boil down to

  1. how many people come out to vote for your candidate?
  2. how many people come out to vote for each of their opponents?

As a starting point for the project, I examined voter turnout in the primaries that have been held to date. Of special interest is turnout numbers from both sides of the aisle in the states that will likely be the most competitive in the general election: the moderate states.

More information on this topic will be provided in a companion diary to be published soon.

5.2 Exit Polling in Moderate States

TOP THREE AREAS OF DISAGREEMENT BETWEEN CLINTON AND SANDERS VOTERS

  • Q1- Is Clinton honest and trustworthy?
  • Q2- Satisfied if Clinton wins the nomination?
  • Q3- Candidate quality that matters most?

Now that you understand the definitions being used for progressive, conservative, and moderate, you are ready for the really good stuff: the exit polling results. Due to the length of this diary, I will only share the results for three questions, the most important ones because they are the ones on which Clinton and Sanders voters disagree the most strongly.

The same convention is used in all of the graphs:

  • progressive states are grouped to the left (MA, IL, VT ...)
  • conservative states are grouped in the middle (GA, MS, TX ...)
  • moderate states are grouped to the right (NV, NC, IA ...).

Note that only the states for which exit polling was performed are included in these graphs, for the simple reason that exit polling results are the source data from which the graphs are generated.

Within each group, states at the left have the lowest ratio of Republican/Democrat turnout results, states at the right have the highest ratios; so in each group, states at the left are relatively easier for Democrats to win (according to primary turnouts) and states at the right are more difficult.

Q1- Is Clinton honest and trustworthy?

All Voters
Nationwide Totals (in millions)
Yes 59% 9.203
No 37% 5.726
Not Asked 2% 0.256
Other 3% 0.440
TOTAL 100% 15.624

The above graph and table shows results when all voters who attended the Democratic primaries (about 15.6 million people) are viewed as a single population, based on exit polling results. Note that in Nevada and Iowa, this question was not asked on their state exit polls.
Clinton Voters Only
Nationwide Totals (in millions)
Yes 86% 7.584
No 10% 0.879
Not Asked 1% 0.130
Other 3% 0.265
TOTAL 100% 8.858

The above graph and table shows results when only the exit polls of those who voted for Hillary Clinton are examined (about 8.9 million people). Compared to the first graph, the blue bars are dramatically longer.

Clinton voters as a group think that Clinton is honest and trustworthy much more than the average primary voter.

Sanders Voters Only
Nationwide Totals (in millions)
Yes 24% 1.553
No 71% 4.599
Not Asked 2% 0.125
Other 4% 0.233
TOTAL 100% 6.510

The above graph and table shows results when only the exit polls of those who voted for Bernie Sanders are examined (about 6.5 million people). Compared to the first graph, the red bars are dramatically longer.

Sanders voters as a group think that Clinton is honest and trustworthy much less than the average primary voter. The pattern appears to be relatively consistent over all states; voters in progressive states possibly answer NO more frequently than those in the other groups.

Q2- Satisfied if Clinton wins the nomination?

All Voters
Nationwide Totals (in millions)
Yes 61%/76% 9.489
No 18%/23% 2.828
Not Asked 20% 3.156
Other 1% 0.151
TOTAL 100% 15.624

The above graph and table shows results when all voters who attended the Democratic primaries (about 15.6 million people) are viewed as a single population, based on exit polling results. Note that in all states that have yellow bars, this question was not asked on their state exit polls.

Over the population of all voters, 61% answered YES and 18% answered NO. Note, however, that 20% of all voters were not given the opportunity to answer this question so the values 61% and 18% are misleading on the low side. To compensate, a second set of metrics was taken over only voters that had this question on their exit poll (15.624 - 3.156 = 12.469 million people). Over that population, 76% answered YES (9.489/12.469) and 23% answered NO (2.828/12.469)

Clinton Voters Only
Nationwide Totals (in millions)
Yes 81%/98% 7.199
No 1%/2% 0.133
Not Asked 17% 1.506
Other 0% 0.020
TOTAL 100% 8.858

The above graph and table shows results when only the exit polls of those who voted for Hillary Clinton are examined (about 8.9 million people). Compared to the first graph, the blue bars are dramatically longer.

Over the population of Clinton voters only, 81% answered YES and 1% answered NO. These values are misleading and on the low side because 17% of this population was not given the opportunity to answer this question. To compensate, a second set of metrics was taken over only voters that had this question on their exit poll (8.858 - 1.508 = 7.352 million people). Over that population, 98% answered YES (7.199/7.352) and 2% answered NO (0.133/7.352). Clearly Clinton voters would be highly satisfied if Clinton wins the Democratic nomination.

Sanders Voters Only
Nationwide Totals (in millions)
Yes 34%/45% 2.201
No 38%/51% 2.502
Not Asked 25% 1.606
Other 3% 0.201
TOTAL 100% 6.510

The above graph and table shows results when only the exit polls of those who voted for Bernie Sanders are examined (about 6.5 million people). Compared to the first graph, the red bars are much longer.

Over the population of Sanders voters only, 34% answered YES and 38% answered NO. These values are misleading and on the low side because 25% of this population was not given the opportunity to answer this question.

To compensate, a second set of metrics was taken over only voters that had this question on their exit poll (6.510 - 1.606 = 4.904 million people). Over that population, 45% answered YES (2.201/4.904 ) and 51% answered NO (2.502/4.904 ). The majority of Sanders voters will not be satisfied if Clinton wins the Democratic nomination. The pattern appears to be consistent over all states, and even more pronounced in the progressive states.

Q3- Candidate quality that matters most?

All Voters
Nationwide Totals (in millions)
Can win 13% 2.047
Cares about people like me 28% 4.314
Honest and Trustworthy 27% 4.250
Has the right experience 30% 4.646
Not Asked 0% 0.000
Other 2% 0.367
TOTAL 100% 15.624

The above graph and table shows results when all voters who attended the Democratic primaries (about 15.6 million people) are viewed as a single population, based on exit polling results.

The top answer was “Has the right experience” (30%), followed closely by “Cares about people like me” (28%) and “Honest and Trustworthy” (27%). Note that over this population, “Can win” is the least popular answer (13%).

Clinton Voters Only
Nationwide Totals (in millions)
Can win 18% 1.605
Cares about people like me 21% 1.877
Honest and Trustworthy 13% 1.143
Has the right experience 46% 4.043
Not Asked 0% 0.000
Other 2% 0.189
TOTAL 100% 8.858

The above graph and table shows results when only the exit polls of those who voted for Hillary Clinton are examined (about 8.9 million people). Compared to the first graph, the green bars are longer.

The clear favorite was “Has the right experience” (46%). Much farther back are “Cares about people like me” (21%) and “Can win” (18%). Note that over this population, “Honest and Trustworthy” is the least popular answer (13%).

Sanders Voters Only
Nationwide Totals (in millions)
Can win 6% 0.384
Cares about people like me 37% 2.378
Honest and Trustworthy 46% 3.025
Has the right experience 9% 0.559
Not Asked 0% 0.000
Other 3% 0.164
TOTAL 100% 6.510

The above graph and table shows results when only the exit polls of those who voted for Bernie Sanders are examined (about 6.5 million people). Compared to the first graph, the red and yellow bars are both much longer.

The top answer was “Honest and Trustworthy” (46%), followed by “Cares about people like me” (37%). Note that over this population, “Can win” is the least popular answer (6%).

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Pricknick's picture

I know how I feel. If Sanders is not the democratic choice, I will vote green. Those down ballot will have to prove that they've earned my vote or they'll get none.
As far as Clinton supporters, she can do no bad. Dark money is fine. She needs a war chest. Lies are fine. Everybody does it. Past military conflicts are fine. They were bad people.

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Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.

ngant17's picture

of radioactive decay, all in one potential near-future scenario i see.

madam battle-axe may be able to afford a wrong decision or two as commander-in-chief, as suits her grand tradition so far. perhaps she will not make that scenario happen in november, but any given repug will make a fine substitute. repugs are too self-righteous to apologize, mistakes are always rooted in liberal policy.

we shall suffer the tragic effects of our bad decisions. i want to think there is time to turn this runaway train from its course. we only may have that last chance in this year, in 2016.

my vote is all i have, and i will not reward criminal behaviour.

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even understanding what a Republican administration can do with all 3 branches. If neither candidate has reached the delegate threshold for nomination by the time of the convention, it's hard to believe that entrenched party operatives--even with the odds of an election loss with Clinton--would nominate Sanders, who threatens them and their graft machine more than any Republican, Trump included.

If she's the nominee, this will be my first election in 4+ decades not voting for the Dem at the top of the ticket, but I would vote down ticket--though not for candidates who endorsed Hillary Clinton. And that includes my governor, who has pledged her SD vote to HRC in advance of a primary in a state likely to go strongly for Sanders. If I can't find a Democratic candidate for national office who supports Sanders publicly, the Dem won't get my vote. Time for political revolution or bust. Elections have consequences, including rigged elections. Not playing the game any more. And I am not alone.

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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." --Jiddu Krishnamurti

Older and Wiser Now's picture

I completely get that, and agree with you. Being pressured into voting for someone you don't trust is rather insane if anyone stops to actually think about it ...

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~OaWN

I've already told the offices of Wyden and Brown that they have seen my last vote ever. There was no need to endorse. They should have withheld until after the Oregon primary. If the election boils down to Clinton vs. some republican, I will vote Pacific Green. It's time to burn the place down.

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If you don't know what you want, you deserve what you get.

But yes, Kate Brown made an error in judgment with the timing of her endorsement pledge (as did Planned Parenthood leadership and NARAL with their endorsements), and Wyden's a weasel. It was heartening to see Merkley take a principled stand for Sanders, at some political risk.

If Sanders isn't the nominee, I plan to write him in.

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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." --Jiddu Krishnamurti

Amanda Matthews's picture

years, never missed an election, and don't plan on missing this one. I will write in Sanders name. Everything that Hillary Clinton did while SOS turned to crap. In a sane country Mrs. Slick Willie wouldn't even be considered a viable candidate with all her baggage. The only thing she didn't turn into a bloody mess was the family slush fund and she managed to keep the donations coming in hand over fist with her pay-to-play weapons deals.

She's unfit for any office, let alone the presidency.

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I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

Older and Wiser Now's picture

I keep hearing that same comment over and over and over again from Sanders supporters, and I totally get why. Being asked to vote for someone you sincerely do not trust is borderline insane. But I think it is important to become familiar with downballot races and vote accordingly - we need to fill Congress with progressives!!! and we do that via downballot races. When you snooze, you looze. I know what you mean about Clinton supporters. The situation is highly frustrating.

FYI, I've just made a post on reddit to tell folks about this diary if they are interested. FYI, here is a link for that for anyone who might care:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Kossacks_for_Sanders/comments/4ejq1z/the_big_qu...

I ended it with this:

I have put in a bunch of time on a special investigation related to potential turnout issues in November. This diary shows perhaps the most important results. It was a data-driven investigation, and now that I'm done I feel like one of those psychologists who spends a bunch of time proving that people like ice cream Smile I've found data that confirms that most Sanders supporters do not trust Hillary, and quite probably will not vote for her in the general election.

Which means that if people TRULY CARE ABOUT SCOTUS, the should be GOTV for Bernie.

My hope is that HRC supporters will pay attention and re-think what they are doing. My plan is to post this diary on Daily Kos after folks here have had a chance to read it and discuss.

Again, Thank You!

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~OaWN

Thumb's picture

Is there a way to bookmark a post for future reference?

And I agree with your strategy on dealing with loyalty oath idiots. I also love throwing back at them that if they were honestly more concerned with beating Republicans they'd be supporting Sanders.

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"Polls don't tell us how well a candidate is doing; Polls tell us how well the media is doing." ~ Me

Older and Wiser Now's picture

I'm like the LAST person to be joining the fun over here ... I was too intimidated to learn a new environment during those days of chaos ...

I don't know of a way to bookmark, other than using the browser. Although there is one little trick you might do, which is to create a draft "diary" and use that to keep track of interesting stuff like URLs. I've been doing that over THERE. It's a bit of work, but it can be useful.

On reddit someone was asking about answers when the loyalty oath question is raised, and through that back and forth I finally realized how I would answer it from that point forward. I was glad that I was able to manage to squeeze that into the diary. Let all the guilt about SCOTUS be on their shoulders, where it belongs, not ours. The situation is all just insane, except when you realize that it is the actions of THE MACHINE, not "we the people". Thanks for popping in!

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~OaWN

thanatokephaloides's picture

Is there a way to bookmark a post for future reference?

They're web pages in and of their own right. Just load the post in the ol' browser and bookmark it. If it's a comment, click on the comment's subject line to open the comment by itself in the browser; then, again, bookmark locally.

Smile

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

MsGrin's picture

It's a pair of psychologists bantering about quasi-interesting topics having a discussion which ends up being condensed into a short piece that goes on the local public radio station. I was hoping for a provocative nugget for my mind to catch hold of (didn't get one). At any rate, some drunk guy at the end of it got the mic to ask a question and blathered for a minute about how he was a committed Hillary voter, but that this confused him since he sure as hell did not trust her. That kind of candor is rare on that side of the primary divide.

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'What we are left with is an agency mandated to ensure transparency and disclosure that is actually working to keep the public in the dark' - Ann M. Ravel, former FEC member

musicalhair's picture

I wanted to quip, 'you've gotta be drunk to be a committed Hillary supporter'. But it might be that in his drunkenness a truth came out.

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Older and Wiser Now's picture

I say go for it. "you've gotta be drunk to be a committed Hillary supporter" would make such a great sig at TOP, wouldn't it?

You'd certainly get attention with it!

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~OaWN

Older and Wiser Now's picture

It's almost like he admitted that he's been conditioned to do this thing that his heart or his mind was telling him that he was wrong.

But if you hear the messages and believe them, like "voting for Hillary is good for little girls" then I guess that would be the position you'd find yourself in when you noticed that things don't quite add up right.

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~OaWN

Think this is an important subject, and one we need to speak about in every media we have access to.
The super delegates have to get it - WE WILL NOT VOTE FOR CLINTON. Nothing will change my mind. I will vote down ballot, but expect most of the young people coming out to support Bernie Sanders will stay home. Those who were disgusted and/or discouraged by politics and became active to support Bernie Sanders, will go back to being inactive.

Believe President Obama took the "but SCOTUS" issue off the table by nominating Merrick Garland.

This is not a business as usual campaign. This is not 2008: Clinton supported Obama to preserve her own political viability, she knew she'd run for POTUS as soon as possible, even in 2012 if she could have done it!

I will not be shamed, scared, scotused, feared, guilted, blamed, if a Republican wins the election. We know Bernie Sanders has a much better chance of winning, so if the DNC nominates Clinton, THEY ARE TO BLAME.

This petition is older now, original goal was 5,000: https://www.change.org/p/i-support-bernie-sanders-but-i-will-not-support...?

Know this can't be written on DKos, but I don't got there except to red LD's BNR. WE must convince the super delegates we will not be voting for Clinton. Bernie Sanders deserves our work to make this public, well before the convention.

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Older and Wiser Now's picture

YES! WTF?

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~OaWN

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At 55% unfavorable, who is she trying to kid? As always, the interests of the country come behind the interests of the Clintons.

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"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho

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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." --Jiddu Krishnamurti

gulfgal98's picture

This comment is absolutely spot on!

Believe President Obama took the "but SCOTUS" issue off the table by nominating Merrick Garland.

This portion of your comment speaks to me too. I refuse to hold my nose and vote for someone who is a corrupt war monger. Her reputation precedes her and it cannot be rehabilitated no matter what she pretends to promise.

I will not be shamed, scared, scotused, feared, guilted, blamed, if a Republican wins the election. We know Bernie Sanders has a much better chance of winning, so if the DNC nominates Clinton, THEY ARE TO BLAME.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/majority-americans-believe-sanders...

Again, evidence this is not a "business as usual" election, and we will NOT vote for a Democrat unless the nominee is Bernie Sanders.

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new minas's picture

I have always said that if they field Clinton through the dirty tactics, media complicity and (possibly) party fiat, that they will lose the white house to a republican. I have also said that the DNC/Thirdway would rather have a republican in the white house than Bernie Sanders so that they could shift into "opposition" party mode.

The fact is that, even in absence of an FBI indictment of her or her aides, there is no way in hell that there will be another Clinton or Bush in the white house.

If she is the nominee then they will lose Colorado, Nevada, Florida and Pennsylvania, Minnesota, Michigan and Wisconsin will all be in play.

There is no democratic party victory under these circumstances, by any condition.

Thanks for this work, will take a deeper look into it.

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If you do not understand that being part of the "establishment" is a slur in the minds of 99% of the U.S. population then you are completely out of touch and probably are one.

new minas's picture

Ohio?

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If you do not understand that being part of the "establishment" is a slur in the minds of 99% of the U.S. population then you are completely out of touch and probably are one.

Older and Wiser Now's picture

I only wish I could have somehow made the dang thing shorter. There is a lot of information ... I hope you find it as interesting as I did. Thank you for your kind words.

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~OaWN

new minas's picture

and concise. You took all those poll data together and made graphs that aren't shown anywhere, indeed, it is this kind of critical analysis that the MSM (and POS) refuse to do since it doesn't push their narrative. I knew these things intuitively, following the exit polls and such, but have never seen it so clearly laid out! Thanks again for this.

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If you do not understand that being part of the "establishment" is a slur in the minds of 99% of the U.S. population then you are completely out of touch and probably are one.

Older and Wiser Now's picture

Thank you, your words are lovely to hear considering the time that I put into this. FYI, as I was working on this I was thinking that exit polling has the potential to be almost like a census ... getting opinions of "we the people" on major issues of the day. I ended up learning/becoming aware of issues with exit polling - for example, they aren't taken after every primary. I wondered why? Apparently there are six news organization that have gotten into some kind of habit of taking them, they are almost a ritual, and I guess if you are a news organization I can see why they would do them - they are newsworthy.

But I was bothered sometimes at the way the polling is done, and that the questions can vary widely from state to state. For example, there were a number of states that didn't have the "would you be satisfied" questions, for either Clinton or Sanders. I wonder what is behind that? By not asking certain questions, it's almost as if "we the people" are being muzzled. It's a very interesting subject, especially after I looked more closely at it.

Anyway, thanks again. You made my day Smile

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~OaWN

thanatokephaloides's picture

If she [HRC] is the nominee then they will lose Colorado,

In part because of me!

Sean McCullough
Colorado Springs, Colorado

Diablo

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

After watching the Democratic Party of Colorado cover itself in glory for the last week or so, I have no problem voting Green if Bernie is not the candidate. My state senator and representative are people I like, even if they are Dems, so I'll vote for them. Bill Bennet is a RINO, if his seat goes to a Republican, no one would be able to tell the difference, and there's no way I will vote for someone who supported Keystone XL. The Dems need to prepare for the lowest turnout in years if they nominate Queenie.

This is a great article and thanks very much , Olderandwiser!

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Dhyerwolf's picture

While I do think that Clinton would beat Cruz (he's just too far to the right and I don't think he'll stand up well to scrutiny), either Trump, Kasich or a great unknown could be a problem for her. By all rights, she should have had no issue with Bernie (especially given that she's spent over a decade stacking up as much establishment power as she could grab), but she's such a flawed candidate that she once again left a gap for someone else to potentially step in.

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Dhyerwolf's picture

then I will be voting for Jill Stein in the general; Hillary lost me at the Reagan funeral. My partner will probably write in Bernie, but he definitely won't be voting for Hillary (I'm going to try to convince him to go for Stein since anything that strengths a decent third party even a little will be worth it, IMO). My father may vote Stein; I was with him when Hillary brought up Kissinger and I think that she lost his vote in the general at that moment. My mother will hold her nose and vote for Hillary and wants the rest of us too as well, but I keep telling her that if Hillary needs our votes to win California, she's lost every swing state and therefore the election already anyways. So I guess that puts me in the "Bernie or Bust" category.

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musicalhair's picture

Trump, if he gets their nomination, is such a loose cannon he could come out and just start running to the left of her on a lot of issues, even back track on his abortion comments and return to his pre-anti-choice position. Sound crazy right? That's even more of a reason he might do it.

That's really the only thing that could "up" the circus of insanity that we're heading for if Hillary wins the nomination.

Bernie or Jill for me.

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He's not an ideological Republican; he's an opportunistic republican.

And he will dice Hillary into a million little pieces.

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won't it? All that arrogance wiped off that face in front of a national audience by the likes of a barking carnival clown. And it won't matter two shits if he uses blatant lies to do it.

In my vindictiveness, if Bernie doesn't win, then I will have to watch her attempt to "debate" Trump - for the sheer entertainment value and the smug satisfaction of watching her stumble. Well hell, if we're going to be subject to a President Trump, we'll need all the sarcastic laughter we can manage to find in that tragedy. A tragedy the Democratic party itself helped create.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

gulfgal98's picture

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

NonnyO's picture

... that pit Hillary against individual Rethugs, Hillary LOSES to Cruz, Rubio (this was before he bowed out), Kasich, and almost tied with Drumpf.

BERNIE beat ALL of them, usually by double digits. Bernie is the only "safe" candidate to be the Dem nominee who will win against every, any, all Rethugs to date.

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I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute ..., where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference. — President John F. Kennedy, Houston, TX, 12 September 1960

Amanda Matthews's picture

vote for her. My son won't vote for her. His friends, the ones that I know are voting and are voting for Sanders won't vote for her. No one I know among my Sander's supporting acquaintances will vote for her. All anecdotal sure. But I myself know that it's reliable.

Democrats are only 29% of eligible voters (a historic low), and a hell of a slice of them hate her, which means her fan club alone will not win her the election. When you consider that Millennials and Independents can't stand her and won't vote for her, there is no way that she can win the GE. That's why all the 'irregularities' during the primary. They're cheating. Openly. They don't care I personally think it will hurt them with the Undecided vote.

Where I think they plan to make up votes is with moderate Republicans. I think she's playing the same game that Slick Willy played during his first election. He went after the moderate Republican vote. And the Reagan Democrats. And I don't think there's enough of them to pull it off for her.

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I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

Older and Wiser Now's picture

He wonders WHAT THE HECK I AM DOING SPENDING SO MUCH TIME IN MY OFFICE?

Ironically, I first spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out just exactly it was I was looking for ... and then I found interesting stuff ... and then I realized it was a pretty big challenge to figure how exactly to put something together to show it to other people so they could see what I was seeing.

But the work is worth it if it convinces any voters out there that the most logical thing to do with their vote is to give it to Bernie.

Your thoughts match the same ones I've been having. I don't see where the votes will come from for HRC. Meanwhile, if we nominate Sanders I truly envision a landslide. Thank you for dropping by.

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~OaWN

thanatokephaloides's picture

Please convey to your husband our appreciation for your time and efforts on our behalf!

Give rose

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Older and Wiser Now's picture

Can I call you Mr. t? I'm glad you enjoyed it.

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~OaWN

Hillary is the threat to kill the revolution. She must be stopped. The Republicans have already dumped the Bush oligarchy. We have to dump the Clinton oligarchy by making sure she cannot win. If we defeat the Clintons in the primary or the GE our revolution will win the presidency in 2020 and beyond. Just as the Soviet Union fell, this will be the fall of corporate control of the US. One family stands between us and victory.

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I totally agree with your last paragraph. That is what is so frustrating about the Clintons: they never learn, or else they learn the wrong lesson. She expected to be coronated in 2008 and instead got her ass handed to her by Barack Obama. Instead of working on her flaws as a candidate and letting the people decide in 2016 she and the odious Debbie Wasserman Schultz decided to rig the primary instead. The Clinton machine went into overdrive, doling out cash and locking up endorsements and super delegates long before any citizen was able to cast a vote.

Now we're seeing the same sleazy smears and innuendo and half truths from her and her surrogates. We've got the internet to expose that now. They don't seem to realize it's not 1992 anymore. The world has changed, drastically. Bernie Sanders incredible run would not have been possible in 1992, and that's where their thinking is stuck. She clings to the old establishment ways; look at her reliance on big donors and constant fundraising. In their wildest dreams I don't think they could have imagined a competitor out raising her simply by asking people who trust him to fund his campaign.

If Trump is the Republican nominee she'll undoubtedly get some votes from people who simply can't stomach him. But I don't think it will be enough. Just as many Republicans and Independents can't stomach her and will vote for anyone running against her, no matter who that is.

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Older and Wiser Now's picture

Those stats are in the diary. I'm more afraid of Cruz than Trump, personally.

Trump strikes me as a bit of a bumbler. Cruz strikes me as a devout theological dictator, which terrifies me.

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~OaWN

wilderness voice's picture

Trump is a loose cannon and there is no telling what he would do as president. He is not bought and paid for, so the Republican puppetmasters would choose Hillary over him anyway in the general. Curz has made it very clear he wants to turn this nation into a theocracy and give all the federal lands to private interests to exploit as they please.

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ngant17's picture

by the uberclass in which he comfortably lives and breathes, that allegiance has been cemented into his psyche and will exist for as long as he is alive. doesn't really matter to me who first shoved a million dollars in his face, or who gave him the silver spoon.

i would say his game has been on top form for the peon vote, it was easy enough to play that in dixie, was not getting my peon vote here in florida, but i do know relatives who worship the guy. you don't bother to explain, it just as well would be trying to explain differential calculus or rocket science. go teach fine arts to the illiterate.

but new york, nah, that is gonna be one tough sell for any con man or con woman.

i sense that bernie may be getting into street fighter mode, but i don't know if can he keep winning and still play by the rules when he is forced to play craps with loaded dice.

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hillary, i won't vote for her.

if it takes a ted cruz to finally rid american politics of the clintons, then so be it.

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and you know that, just filling in here. I have felt for a long time that the only thing that might get actual traction to kill trickle down economics, or neoliberalism now but same damned thing, is for a Tea Bag Repugnant agenda to truly take over everything. I think it will need to be painfully evident to the every day life of the idiots who continue to vote that way that they have been duped before any of them wake up. And a Repugnant Tea Bag "trifecta" of House, Senate and White House may be the only way that happens - if they really DO what they say they'll do, the whole thing comes crashing down a lot quicker. When Susan Sarandon made that remark about the revolution coming quicker rather than later? I think that's exactly what she meant - if we let them take it and make one hell of a mess, then maybe a dumbed down America wakes up.

If it takes a Trump or a Cruz to get rid of the oligarchy that controls us all, then maybe it is time to let that happen.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

the recent recession didn't hurt nearly bad enough for people to stop believing the lies being fed to them. Republican and ConservaDem economic policies have hurt the country for the last 36 years. it's going to take a hell of a lot more hurt for the whole country to get behind a generation-long progressive movement.

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will not get my vote and that goes for a lot of my friends and family. I will vote for some of the down ticket dems.but I think many that I know will just sit it out.hrc will not be POTUS unless she figures out a way to rig the GE!

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momsie's picture

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I live in NY and have never voted for her.

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pswaterspirit's picture

I hang my head in shame as I say the last time my state voted republican was the year JFK was first elected. It could happen this year. Lots of Stein votes, lots of blank presidential votes. We have a fair amount of republicans that would vote for Bernie but Hillary is out of the question.

Truth be told democrats in my world are no happier with the federal government than the yahoo militia folks that invaded the wildlife refuge. We just have different ways of expressing ourselves and we wield a mean ballot box here.

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musicalhair's picture

on twitter who jumped on me after I tweeted with a #resistcapitalism hashtag. He ends up saying that us comrades who gave us the single payer ACA screwed over everyone with higher premiums worse care and more money in the insurance company pockets. I tried to set him straight on how wrong he was about the idea that's it's single payer (really, you'd have to live in your mother's basement to not know that it is not a single payer system at this point.) and how us comrades fought it because we wanted single payer and we hate the insurance companies more than anyone does. I hope it sinks in. I'm an optimist that way.

I also was arguing with a guy who insists that I'm the authoritarian because I'm calling him out on his making excuses for the Kent State shootings and for the Bonus Marcher shooting. You can't have twitter without twits.

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ZimInSeattle's picture

that no presidential nominee with favorability ratings as low as hers has ever won a general election. On the other hand, no presidential nominee with as high a favorability rating as Bernie's has ever lost a general election. You combine that with the Independent vote that Bernie would win yuge in the general, and I'm stunned that anyone in their right mind would think Hillary the better choice to beat the Republicans. It will not happen. Let's hope she doesn't get the chance to lose.

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"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - JFK | "The more I see of the moneyed peoples, the more I understand the guillotine." - G. B. Shaw Bernie/Tulsi 2020

Hillbilly Dem's picture

I went to TOP today, to read and rec the Bernie diaries (some very good ones today, go over if you can stomach it). What do I see on the Rec List? THREE separate teacherken diaries promoting Hillary. It's like talking to pod people, they won't listen.

And rest assured that when Hillary Clinton runs a shit campaign and loses the general election, they'll tell us that it's the fault of every single person who supported Bernie. If we wind up with President Cruz, President Trump or President Kasich there will be one person to blame and her initials are Hillary Rodham Clinton.

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"Just call me Hillbilly Dem(exit)."
-H/T to Wavey Davey

musicalhair's picture

It's more important to the establishment (which is this decade's "the man", and I'm OK with that) keep us in line behind Wall St cronies than it is for them to win elections. I fully think the DNC likes not having the house or senate, or having it so divided they can pretend to avoid blame for giving everything away. Cruz and Clinton are both backed by Goldman Sachs, if it comes down to them in November, they won we lost. We'll get blamed only because it's like a negotiating tactic, the way blaming Nader is still used.

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Older and Wiser Now's picture

because I want to put this information front and center before them. I don't care so much about the usual suspects, it is more the lurkers that I want to affect. I'd appreciate help from anyone who is so inclined to rec it up, to maximize visibility. I stopped reading teacherken a while ago, ever since he trashed Bernie for saying that he was "with" MLK in 1963. He was pretending to be undecided at that point, but I knew where he was leaning ...

I want the burden of SCOTUS to be on their shoulders: they can save SCOTUS, or nominate Hillary. Unfortunately, the two are mutually incompatible.

I agree, they will blame Sanders folks when she loses. It's what they do.

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~OaWN

I will be proud to have the honor of being blamed for Hillary's GE loss.

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musicalhair's picture

I used to go all out of my way to show how Nader cost Gore nothing: 1) he won Florida if they had recounted the whole state; 2) a recount was stopped (!?!?!?!); and all the registered Dems who voted for Bush bear some of the "blame" if voting for who you want is a blamable offence (for W, yeah, I guess it is).

But this time the gauntlet is thrown down, I'll pick it up later and put it in the sink. Maybe I'll wash in a couple of days, I'm busy. OK? But the gauntlet is thrown and I will be "god damn right we fucked over that election for you, and we'll do it again. Now, here: have some kale, join this Green Party meeting, and lets see if we can reach a consensus the way politics ought to be done"

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Older and Wiser Now's picture

Too funny. Sanders people are nicer, smarter, and way funnier!!!

And better-looking too. Can't leave off the better-looking.

And our kids get better grades in school, I just know it. But I think I'll pass on doing research for that this time Smile

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~OaWN

Can I come? Smile

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Twain Disciple

Martha Pearce-Smith's picture

Good to see you here....(SaraBeth here).... you must have a stronger stomach than I do... I had to leave TOP to keep from breaking things here in my office... I cannot in good conscience go over there and rec anything... it just gives kos one more page view, one more click... can't do it. I wish you luck there though...but I hope you have good Kevlar...because I think you will need it.

And THANK YOU for all of this hard work... I am posting this to my Face Book and recommending everyone else do so as well... Let's get this out there and make it go viral...

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Please help the Resilience Resource Library grow by adding your links.

First Nations News

Older and Wiser Now's picture

I didn't mean to stay away so long, it was more of a time management issue than anything else. Which I still am wrestling with ... I respect your views on TOP, just wanting to spread the word for those who are inclined (and maybe encourage others to temporarily "break their vows" for a good cause, but it's all good Smile

THANK YOU SO MUCH for posting to Facebook and spreading the word, you rock!
xoxoxo ~OaWN

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~OaWN

Hawkfish's picture

You need to examine the mirror question: Will Clinton voters support Sanders? Their perception is that experience is the most important attribute and that Bernie is seriously lacking in that department. Do we even have the data to perform an analysis like that? I suspect the answer is "Snarl, yes." but your argument would be stronger if you had that data too.

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We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg

riverlover's picture

It sure seems like teacherken is a de facto front-pager now. While he is busy teaching IRL and going through another round of worry about his wife's health. Very strange.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

thanatokephaloides's picture

If we wind up with President Cruz, President Trump or President Kasich there will be one person to blame and her initials are Hillary Rodham Clinton.

With some blame saved aside for the one whose initials are Markos Moulitsas Zuniga.

Bomb

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

MsGrin's picture

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'What we are left with is an agency mandated to ensure transparency and disclosure that is actually working to keep the public in the dark' - Ann M. Ravel, former FEC member

SnappleBC's picture

It confirms exactly what I've always suspected. Clinton voters simply don't care about things like honest and trustworthy. In other words, they have no honor and they don't care about such things. That is why they "don't get it". When I talk about honor and integrity those words are meaningless.

What I've never quite figured out is what they DO want. Why is Hillary so attractive to them? What about her makes it so desirable to elect her that even continuous warfare and Henry Kissinger is acceptable?

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A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard

Older and Wiser Now's picture

Whatever the heck that means.

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~OaWN

ngant17's picture

so it's a compliment on great artwork.

there is nothing attractive with that lady. I always had respected hillary until she totally lost me after the ny senate and 2002 iraq war vote. and then it escalated into complicity with the 2009 honduras coup. the death squads, the assassinations. much closer to home now. that hurts. you don't win any respect after all of that.

but she did those wonderful things for african-americans.

nothing makes sense to me about this lady any more. except all that money, it totally corrupted a human being into a lower form of life, someone who could have made a difference for peace and social responsibility here and in the whole world. that's gone forever.

i know bernie won't be solving the world's problems as president, but the man has a conscience and wants to advance the human species into a place much better that what we've been thru so far.

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Hawkfish's picture

That a Bernie supporter admitted that they didn't know Clinton's proposals on climate change. But if you can't trust her to implement them, why bother reading them?

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We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg

cinnamon68's picture

I have worried off and on about the enthusiasm level of Democratic vs. Republican primary voters, wondering if it foretold anything important. I am grateful for the data in this diary and wish the HRC supporters could/would take a better look. Her campaign is not very effective in many ways and other than trashing Bernie supporters on line (all over the web), I don't see any positive energy for HRC. Maybe it's hard to get enthused about the Wall Street candidate. This diary combined with a lost diary by Ms. Grin, I think, on TOP, taking a closer look at both the Sanders and Clinton fundraising, makes support for Bernie imperative. After looking at the SuperPAC supporters of HRC, I am just plain appalled. Thank you, OaWN for jumping in an examining this data.

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cinnamon68

...being given a Clinton rehash as a choice in 2016. choice? who am i kidding? there was to be no other choice but Clinton. the DNC tried to make sure of that. a good many voters still have not learned about Sanders to be enthusiastic.

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Bernie really can't endorse Hillary. How can you endorse someone who you said has bad judgement?

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"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho

As he has repeatedly said.

But it won't help her if that endorsement doesn't bring his supporters. And a speech at the convention isn't going to be enough to do that.

Plus, he's already said that if he doesn't win the nomination, then he'll use his delegates to extract progressive concessions. Unless those concessions are meaningful and he's out on the hustings campaigning for them, she won't get his supporters.

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i'm still clicking the wrong "reply" sometimes as the bottom of a thread. deleted the double post.

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Older and Wiser Now's picture

So hard data should be appreciated and respected. Something makes me suspect that it won't quite come off that way to the HRC folks. Sometimes they are strangely silent in my diaries, apparently I don't given them much to go on at times.

You are welcome, cinnamon, and thank YOU so very much for slogging through what turned out to be the pre-first draft for this. As a writer, I seem to need to get it really wrong sometimes before I can figute out how to get it right. I knew that what I was seeing in the data looked very important, but figuring out how to share what I had learned was more than a little bit of a challenge. Thank you so much for your help, and for dropping by today. xoxo

I do think than nominee Hillary Clinton will generate plenty of enthusiasm, unfortunately in the base of the WRONG party.

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~OaWN

MsGrin's picture

clear you've put a yuge amount of work into collecting data.

Will it be attacked in comments? Of course. Mercilessly. You are very generous to post for the lurkers and undecideds.

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'What we are left with is an agency mandated to ensure transparency and disclosure that is actually working to keep the public in the dark' - Ann M. Ravel, former FEC member

Older and Wiser Now's picture

Of course they will attack, it's what they do.
I've come to seem them as flies on a horse's face ... they are annoying, nothing else. I am doing them a favor by letting them know where they are going ... they honestly don't see it, poor souls.
If they truly care about SCOTUS, they would thank me, is how I honestly see it.

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~OaWN

gulfgal98's picture

I recommended it over there too.

Ignoring facts seems to be the choice over there lately. The edict has turned that place into a hollow shell that echos off its walls.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Older and Wiser Now's picture

I truly appreciate the support.

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~OaWN

NonnyO's picture

I see NO difference between Hillary and a Rethuglican. The patented SCOTUS scare is useless when used on me. I know she would pick the same kind of justices as the average Rethug. Six of one, half dozen of the other. Makes no difference. She's thick as thieves with corporations, the religious right (The Fellowship aka The Family - if they wanted to set up a government-mandated religion via the office of faith-based initiatives, she would most likely let them break the constitution's separation of church and state and let them), Wall Street, TBTF banks, military-industrial-mercenary corporate complex, etc., and Bill would probably take over getting money for their foundation with his association as first spouse. I see NO upsides to a Hillary Clinton presidency.

Vote for a woman because she's a woman (& in her case, she has name recognition, albeit not very favorable)...? No. That's not a good reason to vote "for" a presidential candidate when her platform and proposals are either so weak or SO plagiarized from Bernie's platform. Issues before gender! Vote "for" a woman because she's a woman is illogical. By that definition we would have had the Tundra Tramp as VP from '08 until now (as is, I think a lot of people were like me and voted against those two and voted "for" Obama by default - I didn't back Obama because he didn't want to impeach the Bushistas or investigate their lies and war crimes; I'm positive - in my own mind - that Obama was elected as a protest vote against the twin disasters waiting to happen that were McFartbrain and the Tundra Tramp).

"It's about time we had a woman president." Well, yes it is..., just NOT Hillary! WHAT IF she were elected. Anyone between the Rethugs and microphones and/or cameras after the media declared her a winner on election night would be killed in the stampede as the Rethugs rushed to tell the world they are going to impeach her over the emails, reopen the Benghazi investigation, that they will continue their congressional gridlock (or surprise us and pass legislation favorable to banks, corporations, and more fucking wars), and whatever else they can dream up. I realize Moronic Media favors Hillary, but they're planning on the bajillions they'll get in viewership and readership as they talk about the scandals involving her 24/7/365. Seriously... could you stand to hear about more Clinton drama, complete with the breathless excitement of reporting on a reality TV show, after what Bill put us through 15-20 years ago? think about it. Remember the drama of sex headlines with EVERY news break.... [Gaaaaaaaah!!! ]

When we have so many critical things that need fixing, starting with climate change, there really isn't TIME to waste on the rumors and drivel of yet another Clinton scandal!!!

If the woman to be elected prez were Elizabeth Warren (or her clone), I'd say "Show me her plans, proposals, things she would like to accomplish in office, let me see if she's supported by Super PACs with nefarious contributors or not.... and if her plans matched what Bernie is currently proposing (with our help), I'd almost certainly vote for her (assuming no dirty money financial backers). I'd like to vote for a woman president before I die in the next 30 years, too (just NOT Hillary!).

As I've repeatedly said, there are NO circumstances under which I will vote for Hillary. None. I'm a "Bernie or Bust" person. I will either be able to fill in the oval on a ballot next to his name (if the delegates come to their senses by the time of the DNC in Philly), or I'll write in his name. In lieu of that, I'll either leave the prez-VP category blank, or perhaps Green party if they're on the ballot.

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I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute ..., where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference. — President John F. Kennedy, Houston, TX, 12 September 1960

is worth it. I don't like her. Don't trust her. But, with a replacement for Scalia:

Citizens United, decided on a 5-4 with Scalia in the majority, is reversed.
Roe, currently with 5-4 in favor, is protected for a generation.
Obergefell, decided with 5-4 in favor, is protected for a generation, meaning that Gay Marriage survives
Dc v Heller, which greatly expanded the application of the 2nd Amendment, is reversed.
Shelby County v. Holder, decided on a 5-4, which restricted the application of the voting rights act, is reversed
The Obamacare case, decided on a 5-4, becomes 6-3.

There are more I could list.
Gay rights
Abortion Rights
Voting rights
Labor rights
The rights of the accused

Replacing Scalia with even a moderate democrat has an enormous and generational impact.

As much as I dislike her, it is enough.

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petral's picture

One more factor against Hillary: her mouth. You never know what she'll say.

I saw somewhere that, by 2020, 2/3 of the college graduating class will be female. Hence, the glass ceiling really won't be as much of a problem for them.

Hillary is doing best (outside the South) in contests which are Democrats only. Independents are going for Bernie.

The question isn't who you'll vote for if she's the nominee but who you would vote for if you were/are in a swing state.

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gulfgal98's picture

and I cannot, in good conscience, vote for her. If the chips fall to the Republicans, it is the DNC's fault, not mine.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

While all of this data is impressive, the big story behind why people don't trust Hillary resides in plain sight in the history of the first Clinton Administration.

Hillary was tasked by her husband with delivering a workable health care program so that more people could afford having health care. To borrow a meme from Aesop, Hillary Mountain labored mightily and only produced a mouse. There was a lot of noisy bragging about what a great job Hillary was going to do in achieving this goal, only to have the effort completely collapse when the Congress took a look at her incredibly convoluted scheme to ensure that the insurance companies made more money than people got coverage.

In brief, she made promises she couldn't keep.

People who do this tend to be deemed untrustworthy after such a failure. It is thus with La Hills. She has done nothing since to redeem herself and her vision except reinforce the idea that a voter's trust is better invested elsewhere.

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Vowing To Oppose Everything Trump Attempts.

Older and Wiser Now's picture

"perception" that HRC is not honest and trustworthy. Because that is not arguable, it is measurable and it actually has been measured in the exit polls. I just took the next step and calculated the numbers of people who hold that perception.

Ignoring the fact that one third of the voting population, millions and millions of people, are distinctly unimpressed with a candidate does not seem a wise strategy to follow if one truly wants to win the election.

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~OaWN

Daenerys's picture

Nobody I know likes her. Where's the enthusiasm, what enthusiasm? Hubby and I will write in Bernie should he not get the nomination, unless Utah becomes a swing state. But I doubt that will even happen if Hillary does get the nom.

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This shit is bananas.

Alligator Ed's picture

Back in January of 2016, while the campaign was just starting to heat up (Bernie being too mellow in 2015 for my taste), while at GOS, I made several comments appended to different threads, that although I was for Bernie, if HRC won the nomination, I would vote for HRC over any Repuglican. Then the typical Clintonian evolution started. When Hillary started feeling the heat because she had REAL competition, her surrogates got into the scene, blasting Bernie, his supporters, and also his policies. As the heat has continued to rise, due to a now formidable winning streak, even HRC is descending into the mud herself, since her acolytes have been unable to stanch the Sanders tide. She gets uglier all the time. The number of gaffes and unforced errors by her have steadily grown. Thank heavens for Hubby Bill, who most recently told Black Live Matters activists essentially: "you're a bunch of g-damn cowards for supporting people in your community who go out and murder other blacks". After this enlightened bit of repartee, the next day Bill "almost" apologized. WTF. The list of Clintonian gaffes and horrendos would fill a post in and of themselves.
I have abandoned DK--happily (tho still lurk there to give BNR and OPOL some recs). I have also abandoned my pledge to support Hillary in the general election--it's Bernie or Bust for me now.
While Jill Stein may be an excellent candidate, she hasn't got a snowball's chance in Hell to get elected. I will vote for any Berniecrats down-ticket--but not Clintonistas. I will contribute to Berniecrats like Grayson and Canova--but not one dime to DNC or PACS.

OaWN: excellent post--save your time and effort to reposting this at DK--as your own excellent graphics explain, Clintonistas won't be convinced. 98% of them feel she is trustworthy! Talk about confirmation bias.

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Dr. FSKopus's picture

After long conversations with my mother (who is a huge Bernie supporter and whose views on politics and philosophy have greatly shaped my own opinions) about this same topic, I could not believe that she wasn't going to go Bernie or Bust, especially with how fervently she attacks Hillary on issues of transparency and honesty. The best answer I got was "Well, she's ultimately better than any republican candidate...", which is true, but I'm still not convinced of her trustworthiness. It just looks too slimy and conniving from my view, especially with how condescending and flippant she is with the millenial generation. She's not entitled to my vote, especially if she constantly puts us down and constantly says that she's not on our side.

At this point, I feel like I've got nothing to lose by going Bernie or Bust. Climate change is a huge deal to our generation, and still we're dragging our feet through the sludge... for what? Bernie's got plans to do something about it; the Greens have plans to do something about it. At least that way my voice will be heard loud and clear even if my candidate doesn't win, especially when I vote for the downticket candidates (Illinois politics are completely screwed otherwise...).

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