Open Thread - Thurs 21 Mar 2024 - Third Parties
Third Parties
A bit over a month ago Ron Placone (comedian, movie maker, political blogger, writer, used to appear on the Jimmy Dore show, and much more) wrote a substack/blog post about why he was joining the Green Party. It's called 'Why I Chose to Green Enter'.
I found the blog post to be interesting and thought provoking and I think Placone did a very good job of explaining why, even though he's really a 'no party preference' type of voter, joining the Green Party makes sense to him at this point.
The Four Pillars of the Green Party from https://www.gp.org/4_pillars
So, why did he join the Greens? Well, the Green Party fits his personal politics most closely. He's a lefty, eco-socialist. He's not a capitalist. The party is the furthest left-wing party which has something of a political presence (there's something like 100 Greens serving in office in the USA in some capacity) that we've got in the USA. The party is focused on things like ranked choice voting and campaign finance reform which are badly needed. The party is against war, and for supporting the people of Gaza and, of course, more (see the party's webpage at www.gp.org for much more information).
Placone gives responses to some of the usual objections to someone joining a third party, and thereby rejecting the Democrats (or Republicans). In brief, the first objection: voting for a third party is just giving a vote to Trump. Placone explains why this isn't true, and why joining the Greens (or another third party) helps them get and/or maintain ballot access and get/maintain matching federal campaign financing. The second objection is: “The Green Party will never be a mainstream party in the US!” My immediate reaction to this was, 'So???'. Placone points out that the Green Party isn't a mainstream party anywhere in the world, but, in other countries it forms coalitions and alliances with other left-wing parties and gets stuff done. Another objection he covers - our system is only set up for two parties. Once again, the response is basically, 'So???'. It shouldn't be set up just for two parties and that needs to be fought!
I, myself, am not joining any party at this time although I recognize the value of Placone's reasoning and might eventually join the Greens, or the Socialists, or whatever, if my joining is needed to maintain ballot access in my state and so on.
IN WA state one has to collect signatures to get a third party on the presidential ballot. So I'll be collecting signatures for the Green party. I'll also probably collect them for RFK, Jr. Why not? And maybe for the Socialists. Once again, why not? The more choices on the ballot, the better, I think. Which one will I vote for? I have no idea right now, except that I will not vote for Biden or Trump.
Thanks for reading! Here's the open thread - and remember, everything is interesting if you dive deep enough, so tell us about where you're diving!
Comments
It's Thursday!
That's close to Friday, and the weekend
. I hope everyone is having a good day. Mine is gonna be a bit full again, heading to a nearby 'big' town to pick up a locket I ordered to put a pic of Jaska in. Yea, I'm weird. And, if it's not raining, I'll be working on some plant beds in the garden.
What's up with you? Let us know!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Hey, good morning
-
The republidems fight ballot access for any serious third party contenders.
Read an article the other day about the DNC sending out droves of lawyers
to prevent states ballot access by hook or by crook. Can't find it now.
What are they so afraid of? Unrigging the system.
Thanks for the OT Sima.
Fear of Unrigging the System...
Exactly. I couldn't believe, ok, I could, but I was still shocked, and how blatant the rigging is getting, and how hard the two parties, the dems in particular, are fighting against letting third parties in. Sick of it, I'm just sick of it.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Good morning Sima. CA has at least 3 third parties as
of the most recent primary, and I think it actually has more but I can't say for sure. I've always been a proponent of both third parties and a multiparty system and worked to get one on the ballot back in the sixties solely because it wasn't either wing of the uniparty.
Speaking of politics, I got a letter yesterday exhorting me to help elect Democratic Scientists up and down the ballot. My wife's reaction, like mine was "Do any such things really exist?". It seems that anybody with a tech or medical job is a "scientist", whatever that may mean in today's lingo, and democrat means BIG D types, and hence persons not actually supportive of anything actually resembling democracy.
So, there's your morning giggle. 3 straight days of rain are supposed to start tomorrow, so there is about a week of outdoor chores and such to get done today, meaning I'm already descending into the "ah the hell with it" zone, but I suppose that I'd best at least give superficial attention to the nutritional needs of the fruit trees and producing planting beds as well as obligatory minimum weeding of same.
Besides withholding votes and funding, how can one boycott a political party, or, both wings of the uniparty? Is it possible to boycott all of their advertised supporters? Would it be meaningful to do so? We need some third party scientists to indulge in some third party science concerning how to bring about third party success other than standing out in the rain with voter registration forms that almost everybody will ignore.
Off to get my morning started -
be well and have a good one
Edit: fixed some typos
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Democratic Scientists?
Huh? The mind boggles. Just boggles. I suppose a marxist can't be a scientist, or a libertarian, or a republican, or whatever. Or a liberal, or a labor party person or... doh.
I'm going to be paying attention to what third party scientists say about stopping the main two parties, for sure!
More seriously, no one wants to say revolution, but I think it might come to that.
As for the rain, I'm feeling the same. I have to get some beds dug and some seeds planted but... maybe in a few days? 'Ahh... the hell with it' is a perfect description of my feelings about this. Good luck with the feeding, planting, digging and weeding! We all need that luck
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Colorado puts
anyone from any party (or no party) on the ballot- pay the filing fee, and you're in. Which make the whole "throw the cheeto off the CO ballot" thing quite hilarious, but I digress.
That is how Kanye West's vanity campaign nearly beat Green Howie last time out. So there will be *many* ballot lines to smear across with my Hershey bar this time. Spoilt for choice, I am...
Twice bitten, permanently shy.
Good for Colorado!
I wish WA was like that. Back on 2008 an initiative passed which made us a top two state. I was not happy then, and am still not happy. It does not apply to presidential races, but does apply to most other races. It was partly to stop 'spoilers', yea, meaning third party candidates.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Good morning sima, et. al.!
As for political parties, we need a 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc...
None of them, short of an anti-capitalist platform, will ever satisfy me, and none of them will get a donation, or any activism on my part beyond a possible signature, or a general election vote.
Looking back at a damn lifetime of activism, beginning at age 4, I have given up on it. It is all I can do to force myself to give a casual read to the latest new party on the block.
Given my frustration and refusal to join in on the action, I will not discourage anyone else for doing what I will not. In fact, I think everyone should follow their own muse, and should be applauded for so doing.
Thanks for the OT, sima. (Yeah, our favorite Jaska locket wearing weirdo!)
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Yes, all the political parties should be allowed on the ballot
All of them. And if they get votes, great. If they don't, ohh well. I have been active politically for a long time, but I am very discouraged now. I think gathering signatures might be a last hurrah for me. Maybe, as we grow older, we just learn that nothing changes, really. Nothing. So disheartening.
I LOVE being the Jaska locket wearing weirdo! Love it! Thanks!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
I keep thinking of the Four Pillars of the Two-Party System
1) Citigroup
2) Raytheon
3) AIPAC
4) Monsanto
Well, that's what I've come up with so far...
“When there's no fight over programme, the election becomes a casting exercise. Trump's win is the unstoppable consequence of this situation.” - Jean-Luc Melanchon
It's pretty amazing to see
how the determinedly the uniparty is working to deprecate those Green Party pillars. The woke dems have made everybody sick to death of "Social Justice", since the topic has now skilfully been reduced to a mere pronoun/bathroom battle. The hidebound repubs have made it completely clear that Ecology isn't ever going to be profitable, and Oil Must Be Pumped. Both sides have chronically laid waste to any concept of Peace for decades now- we must fear, and if possible kill, the Scary People Du Jour. And both sides have been working overtime here recently to make sure Democracy remains a fading mirage in the rear view mirror.
To paraphrase Henry Ford, "You can have any flavor of politics you like, as long as it is Awful."
Twice bitten, permanently shy.
I've made it clear --
that I don't mind if anyone uses the wrong pronoun for me. I really don't care.
I've suggested an alternative political path: instead of making transgender issues a forum for anti-trans Karens, persecuted transgendered youth (whose suicide rates are astronomically high), freakouts over sports participation, and the proliferation of snowflake behaviors, we work as a civilization to improve the medical technology to the point where wanting a different body will no longer be a big deal anymore. We'd all be so much happier for it.
Whether ecology is profitable or not is only an issue for the capitalists. At this point, capitalists go where the government drops money, and if the government drops money for Big Oil or solar power or both, that's where they'll go. It doesn't have to be that way. The rest of us benefit from biodiversity and quality "nature."
Peace is coming, the big deal being whether or not it will come as a result of long, protracted wars which the West will lose, or otherwise. Maybe peace will come as a result of everyone being wiped out, through nuclear holocaust or otherwise. The anti-peace forces must be made to know that their quest for endless for-profit war is futile.
Democracy is a much-abused word. Today the point is to fake popular rule while keeping oligarchies in charge. There are tools, however, for actual popular rule; one of the virtues of Occupy was that it introduced the public to those tools.
“When there's no fight over programme, the election becomes a casting exercise. Trump's win is the unstoppable consequence of this situation.” - Jean-Luc Melanchon
I can't argue
with any of those points. I would love nothing more than to see the status no longer remain quo, believe me...
Twice bitten, permanently shy.
I understand sensitivity of misgendering
when identity is not obvious. I am female, reek of womanhood, a solid she, her...and if I was misgendered, I would absolutely KNOW it was an intended insult.
I am a staunch believer that any rights given, or any rights retained, should be equal.
Nobody in these "categories" are anymore special or privileged than those in the other categories.
I wish this had not become a political issue.
My medical advance dream is to cure cancer, ebola, malaria, Autism, Alzheimer's, lupus, arthritis, etc...
Afterwards, play time with gender switch.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Being able to grant people the bodies they want --
is the medical problem that, if solved, will cure all of the other ailments.
“When there's no fight over programme, the election becomes a casting exercise. Trump's win is the unstoppable consequence of this situation.” - Jean-Luc Melanchon
Not sure about that.
I would like to have a brain like Einstein. Wouldn't we all? Can't wait for that medical advancement!
Wanting a body centering around how you engage in sex, and with whom, or how you want to be perceived by society, post-medical procedure, is a way down low priority with me.
Life as we are given at birth is a true given. It is the wonderful starting point. It is always shared and celebrated. The calculated change of what comes next is an individual's choice. It is a situation where society accepts someone's choice after they were celebrated at birth, and desires a second celebration because...Trans should be totally accepted, but not celebrated as elevated above others.
They are just people. No more, no less.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Why should we expect --
that Einstein was able to do what he did because of the physiology of his brain? Einstein, most obviously, was able to do what he did because he was able to train himself in the right way and was there at the right time and in the right place to do what he did.
My point is not specific to the transgendered. Gender reassignment surgery would simply offer an example of a situation in which we'd want to know how to make human cells do what we want them to do.
“When there's no fight over programme, the election becomes a casting exercise. Trump's win is the unstoppable consequence of this situation.” - Jean-Luc Melanchon
I dunno... maybe...
But, some people are truly nonsexual. Like, my sister, who is severely autistic, non-verbal, etc, and totally nonsexual. I don't think she has an idea of body, or what her body is, or what she wants. So I'm not sure giving her the body she wants, if she understand how to want it, would do anything. Maybe, maybe... How could she tell us?
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Gotta agree with this...
Your points are very good!
The freakouts over sports stuff just makes me shake my head. All they have to do,is change the leagues from 'male' and 'female' to, say, 'over 200lbs and 6ft 2in', 'over 150 lbs and 5ft 2 in', or whatever. In other words, someone, male or female or whatever, goes into a league based on their size and strength. Heh, pet peeve of mine!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
I would recommend --
greatly reducing the emphasis upon victory in athletic competition. Our obsession with competition, here in the US, has led us to celebrate the achievements of baseball players -- and then, only later, to retract the records of those same achievements to the extent that we found out that the achievers used steroids. It's not a good process. Society created Mark McGwire -- and then said, nope, we're not honoring that.
“When there's no fight over programme, the election becomes a casting exercise. Trump's win is the unstoppable consequence of this situation.” - Jean-Luc Melanchon
That's a pretty accurate...
selection of the four pillars of the two-party system! Thanks!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
It would seem --
that the point of standing outside of the two-party system is to reveal pseudo-debates for what they are: pseudo-debates.
“When there's no fight over programme, the election becomes a casting exercise. Trump's win is the unstoppable consequence of this situation.” - Jean-Luc Melanchon
I had been regularly visiting the Way of the Bern sub on Saidit…
But the Saidit.net site has been down for two days now.
https://www.saidit.net/s/WayOfTheBern/
The Saidit alternative had been set up as a possible refuge from increasing censorship, repression, and meddling by Reddit on the Way of the Bern sub there.
On a separate subject,
I just checked my political-spam folder. And I found exactly 500 rejected money-begging emails from various dem candidates/affiliates all over the country, since I last emptied it in January. Total that up with the literally dozens of text messages, each resulting in its source number being immediately blocked, and I'm probably at 600. And there are 5 months to go.
I must have been crazy to donate money to dems, back when I still naively thought that it made a difference. Crazy!
Twice bitten, permanently shy.
I've gotten about this many too...
Not on my cell phone, at least. Not yet. I didn't give them my cell phone number. I 'unsubscribed' from many of the lists. And so, now I get emails from candidates in states that are hundreds or thousands of miles away because the lists I unsubscribed from sold my info on. Why? I will NEVER give them money! Ever!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Just at closing time yesterday.
a woman, likely in her mid to late 50s, asked me for help. Her neighbors had chipped her (embedded a chip in her ear)and talked to her 24-7, trying to get her to harm or kill herself.
Hokay...to sort of distract her, I suggested she get to a dr. and remove the chip. She said she tried that, and the dr. put her in a psychiatric ward.
I gave her some suggestions, then locked myself in the office until she left. She was in full melt down, wanting to kill herself. I felt a little afraid, and very sad.
This is the 4th schizophrenic I have met in the past 4 years. They all claimed chips and microwaves talk to them. I have heard that people have been complaining about some hearing voices symptoms since 5g became a thing, although I have not researched to see if it is a real "thing".
I do know this: These 4 people are discharged from the psychiatric ward in less than 30 days, and they all wind up back into their homes or on the streets. They receive no help, they have no safe place to go, and people around them are not safe.
This country really screwed up when it closed permanent resident mental institutions.
How are these mentally ill people cared for in Europe? Surely, they have a working system.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Germany still has closed wards with use of physical restraints
Cost of caring for indigent patients is borne by the public purse.
When I went to the jewely store...
To get the Jaska locket, there was a brand new homeless camp across the street. It was, at least so far, well kept. Two or three tents and so on. But... we never have had those here before. We have homeless living down the gully behind the Macdonalds in our little town. Never before, but we do now. And many of them are mentally ill. Yes, drug addicts, and so on. But many are mentally ill. I am so sad for them, where has the help gone?
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
It is unfortunate that RFK Jr. has such a disastrous policy
with regards to Israel since he is spot on on many other issues.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4547234-rfk-jr-testy-interview-nyt/
Very much agreed.
Not only is his support of the genocide immoral, it is political suicide for anyone but staunch Evangelical Republicans. Many foreign leaders would regard him as the same sort of lowlife as they regard Biden, and soon, Trump.
The world has not turned on Americans yet, but they will, if we keep voting for genocide enablers.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
I really dislike this aspect...
of RFK, Jr too. I will try to help get him on the ballot just to have more choices and screw with the two party system.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
A small segment
of the left just can't stop bringing up his position on Israel, but overall his strong pro-Israel stance doesn't seem to have hampered his campaign as it's still showing strong in polls. Perhaps, like me, many lefties are crediting him considerably for his good work and bold outspokenness, light years ahead of anyone else, on many other major issues sufficiently to overcome his suboptimal stance on Gaza.
Issues such as the environment: he has done more to improve the environment and to go after corporate polluters than anyone associated with the Greens. And is far better positioned for political success than that hapless party stuck at 2%, even as his campaign would still be a long shot.
Issues such as public health: RFK Jr has of course taken point on covid and vaccine issues and for his efforts has received tremendous push back from the MSM and gov't. Meanwhile the GP embraced the powerful gov't establishment by officially supporting covid vaccine mandates. Will their presumed nominee have the courage to break w her party, or will she continue to prefer avoiding discussion of the subject?
On Ukraine and relations w Russia and China RFK Jr again is well ahead of anyone in the 3d party category, a position largely inspired by his uncle the president, one which generally reflects the pro-negotiation views of people like Jeffrey Sachs, who would make an excellent Sec'y of State in an RFK Jr admin. Meanwhile the GP/Jill Stein have offered only a muted voice in favor of negotiations. This is true on most issues: their views barely make it into the everyday discussion, even in independent media.
Generally my views of Jill Stein are a little more positive than of her GP, but mainly in the sense that I'd like to think she would be stronger on some key personal freedom issues if not for her GP association. Meanwhile, it's just a party that remains at 2% and gives every indication it is in no hurry to stop being stuck. A feel good vote doesn't impress me.