The Big Question: Will Sanders Folks Vote for Hillary in Nov? Probably Not. (Data)
Much is at stake in November. If enough people do not show up to vote for the Democratic nominee, a Republican will be elected as president, and the GOP may very well control all three branches of government. In addition, the next president will likely have a rare opportunity to swing the court dramatically to the left or to the right for the next several decades. Republicans are offering a slate of presidential candidates that is especially horrific; much of the world visibly cringes at the thought of the current front-runner, Donald Trump, being sworn into office. To avoid many nightmares, the Democratic nominee simply must win the presidential election. The alternative is unthinkable.
Here’s the thing: I do not believe Hillary Clinton will win in the general election; those who are doing their best to see her become the Democratic nominee may very well win that battle but lose the war. Clinton voters and Sanders voters want VERY different things. Their largest area of disagreement is about Clinton’s character: 70% of Sanders voters (about 4.5 million people, or one third of everyone who has already voted so far in the Democratic primaries) answers NO to the following question, according to exit poll results:
“Is Clinton Honest and Trustworthy?”
And because they do not trust Clinton, and most politicians in general, many Sanders supporters are resolved to no longer play what they have come to see as a highly rigged game. Those who are more enlightened will still vote on down-ticket races, but others will simply stay home. Therefore, my recommendation is that those who truly care about SCOTUS do everything they can to ensure that Bernie Sanders becomes the Democratic nominee. Democrats have a choice in this election: we can either harness and leverage the excited energy and passion that Sanders has been unleashing around the country, or we can choose to swim upstream against it. Heaven help us if we collectively choose door number two.
- What Evidence do I Have for this Absurd Claim?
- Have I Simply Quantified What Many of Us Have Been Thinking?
- Summary of Key Findings
- Conclusions / Reflections
- Project Details / Description
1) What Evidence do I Have for this Absurd Claim?
About a month ago I read a diary: “[Daily Kos] Folks, we've got a turnout problem.“ A noticeable pattern was emerging after the first three primaries/caucuses: turnout at Democratic ones has generally been down from levels in 2008, while turnout for Republican ones has generally been up [note: for the remainder of this document, the word primary will be used to reference both primaries and caucuses]. I began an investigation to better understand how these trends might impact results in November because they concerned me; I also sought to investigate what was then merely an instinct: that when all the counting was done, Hillary will lose. Seth Abraham describes the situation well in his piece, The Democrats Are Flawlessly Executing a 10-Point Plan to Lose the 2016 Presidential Election.
2. Nominate the only person who can reunite the Republican Party once Trump failing to get the nomination has fractured it beyond repair.
Nothing unites Republicans quite like hatred of the Clintons. If Trump’s supporters are denied seeing their favored candidate win the nomination despite his lead in delegates earned through primaries and caucuses — and make no mistake, they will be so denied — their impulse to bolt the Republican Party completely will (and can) only be stopped by a Clinton candidacy.
[...]
3. Fracture the Democratic Party by broadly supporting the Clinton camp’s attempts to smear Bernie Sanders and his supporters.
[...]
5. Fail to nominate their most popular candidate, in particular the one with the best chance of beating Ted Cruz or John Kasich in the fall.
[...]
8. Do nothing whatsoever to address outstanding concerns about the character, integrity, and judgment of the Party’s front-runner.
Clinton has refused to release her Wall Street speeches when she could easily do so, making it look like she has something to hide. Clinton has refused to clearly articulate any mistakes she might have made with respect to her private email server, making it look like she exercises bad judgment and then has no ability or willingness to self-analyze or admit error — precisely the quality so many people find unnerving in Donald Trump.
[...]
10. Ignore the youth vote.
I wanted to investigate my hunch, find quantifiable data to prove or disprove my concerns. I think I found it: one third of everyone who has already voted so far in the Democratic primaries is not convinced that Clinton is honest and trustworthy. And to many people, this concern is a really big fucking deal.
PROJECT GOAL:
- Find quantifiable data related to possible voter turnout issues in the general election.
PLAN:
- Analyze voting turnout results and exit polling statistics for the primaries that have already been conducted.
KEY SOURCES:
- NYT 2016 Delegate Count and Primary Results — for 2016 voting results
- The Green Papers — for 2016 voting results
- United States Election Project — for comparing 2008 to 2016 voting results
- CNN 2016 Election Center — for exit poll survey information
2) Have I Simply Quantified What Many of Us Have Been Thinking?
Will Hillary win the general election if she becomes the Democratic nominee? Will enough people show up to vote for her? Isn’t this question the “elephant in the room,” the question on most everyone’s minds but rarely acknowledged directly? I see it as the core concern behind the question asked in so many diaries: “Will you support Hillary Clinton if she wins the nomination?”
What factors play into this concern? We know that Hillary and Bill are deeply disliked by many on the right … we can predict that these folks will come out in large numbers in order to vote against her. We also know that voters on both sides of the aisle have raised issues about Clinton’s “character, integrity, and judgment,” as Abraham puts it; a partial list includes
- the appearance of impropriety of many kinds (industry lobbyists and ex-financial regulators hosting expensive fundraisers for Clinton’s presidential campaign, the timing of donations to the Clinton Foundation (including those by the fossil fuel industry) and corresponding actions taken by the State Department (which HRC headed at the time), the infamous highly-paid speeches to Goldman Sachs, etc.)
- “The Clintons have simultaneously depended on black voters and thrown black voters under the bus for years now” — Alicia Garza, co-founder of BLM; similar but slightly less strident remarks have also been made by Michelle Alexander (who quotes John Lewis) and others.
- an ongoing FBI investigation over “use of a private email server during her time as secretary of State” and also "the possible intersection of Clinton Foundation donations, the dispensation of State Department contracts and whether regular processes were followed";
- concerns that Clinton may be getting preferential treatment in that investigation.
President Obama has stated, “I guarantee that there is no political influence in any investigation conducted by the Justice Department, or the FBI, not just in this case, but in any case,” but little else has been done to address the above concerns, other than the Clinton campaign rebuking Sanders for attempting to impugn her integrity.
Will offensive remarks made by campaign surrogates to younger voters be forgotten? Is it even possible to forget feminist icon Gloria Steinem insinuating that today’s young feminists are sex maniacs (“Where are the boys? The boys are with Bernie”) or Madeleine Albright’s attempts to shame them (“There’s a special place in hell for women who don’t help each other!”) Older women argue that young ones are voting against their own best interests if they support Sanders, that they are too immature and naive to understand the reality of glass ceilings. People of color have described the disrespect they feel when others judge them as voting against their interests by supporting Clinton … why would young women not feel similar disrespect when others judge them in the same way because their support for Sanders? Could it be that young voters actually care more about other issues, such as being able to find a job and pay off debts after having forked over not-so-small fortunes to pay for a college education, or whether they will experience an eco-disaster in their own lifetime? Is it possible that when they carefully weigh the pros and cons, breaking glass ceilings ranks almost indulgently high on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs in comparison to lower-order ones that are much more pressing?
The biggest issue is that even my guy friends can't support themselves, find a job, or even think about having a family while all these executives, BOTH men AND women, are paid hundreds of times what their employees are and they are telling me why my opinion isn’t informed.
How much allegiance do young voters have to the Democratic Party, anyway? Will they fall into line to vote for Hillary? After they have watched Bernie expressing their hopes and dreams, and seen those dreams crushed by indifferent elders whose “financial situation is more or less OK”? And what about another critical demographic: independents. Did you know that their number is now at record highs?
“An average 43% of Americans identified politically as independents in 2014, establishing a new high in Gallup telephone poll trends back to 1988.”
How often do we hear Clinton supporters complaining that “Sanders is not a real Democrat”, and now even Hillary herself seems to be fanning those flames. WTF? Are independents listening? Will they remember these taunts come November? If independents are not considered real Democrats during primary season, where does the expectation come from that they will compliantly vote according to the demands of their tormentors in the general? Abraham writes:
By freezing Sanders and his platform out of the Democratic Party altogether, it ensures that not only will Clinton lose many Sanders supporters — which will already happen pursuant to step #5 of the Democrats plan to lose the White House — but also that she will lose most or all of the independent voters that Sanders has thus far been winning over her by 30 to 40 points. Indeed, Clinton has done everything she can do to signal that neither Sanders’ views nor his supporters will have any place in her Administration should she win the White House — which callous disregard of the Democratic base substantially decreases her chances of ever occupying that building.
3) Summary of Key Findings
Clinton Voters | Sanders Voters | ||
Is clinton honest and trustworthy? | Yes | 86% (7,584,448) | |
No | 71% (4,598,955) | ||
Satisfied if clinton wins the nomination? | Yes | 98% * (7,198,685) | |
No | 51% * (2,502,316) | ||
Candidate quality that matters most | Has the right experience | 46% (4,043,386) | |
Honest and Trustworthy | 46% (3,024,886) | ||
TOTAL NUMBER OF PRIMARY VOTERS: | 8,858,380 | 6,510,190 |
* See section “2.2 Exit Polling in Moderate States” for more information
The largest area of disagreement between Clinton and Sanders voters relates to Clinton’s character: 70% of Sanders voters (about 4.5 million people, or one third of everyone who has already voted so far in the Democratic primaries) answered NO to the following question on exit polls:
“Is Clinton Honest and Trustworthy?”
On the other side of the spectrum, 86% of Clinton folks (about 7.5 million people) answered YES.
Compounding the impact of this difference of opinion is the third largest area of disagreement between the two groups: “candidate quality that matters most”. Intriguingly, the attribute “Honest and Trustworthy” is simultaneously rated the MOST important attribute by Sanders voters and the LEAST important attribute by Clinton voters. In other words, Clinton fails the most important test that most Sanders voters have for a presidential candidate, while Clinton voters collectively view those concerns as badly placed and/or unimportant.
The second largest area of disagreement between the groups relates to satisfaction if Clinton becomes the Democratic nominee.
- 98% of Clinton voters would be satisfied, but
- 51% of all Sanders voters would not be satisfied.
Will sufficient numbers of people who believe that Clinton fails the most important test that they have for a presidential candidate actually vote for her in the general election? Note that whether or not she actually is honest and trustworthy is beside the point here — as the saying goes, perception is reality. Please think for a moment of a babysitter. Would you hire one to watch over your kids if you believe they lacked the single most important attribute that you want them to have? No f**king way, right? Would you force someone to hire a babysitter that did not meet the standards of that person?
The results of my research shows that there are millions of Sanders voters who do not trust HRC: 4,598,955 of them so far. And yet, those who support Clinton insist / demand that these folks vote for a person that they do not trust to be president if she becomes the Democratic nominee. I sincerely believe that many Clinton folks do not realize that their requests are heard in this way by Sanders folks; the Clinton folks would not be asking if they themselves did not admire and trust Clinton greatly, but they seem to find it difficult to comprehend that others simply do not perceive Clinton in the same way that they do. It is one thing to vote for a candidate that you simply think is “second best.” It is quite another thing to vote for a candidate that you think does not have the stuff that is necessary for the job.
Furthermore, the nomination process itself has been plagued with issues (huge lines and long waits, insufficient ballots, possible tampering with voter registration data, etc.). These issues have led many Sanders supporters to suspect that the election process itself may not / is not being conducted fairly, which further exacerbates the entire situation.
4) Conclusions / Reflections
I’m afraid my fears have been confirmed with this project. I believe that significant numbers of Sanders supporters, the ones who do not find her to be honest and trustworthy, will not vote for her in the general election. As a result, Democrats are taking a huge risk with SCOTUS if Clinton becomes the nominee. We may not approve, but “Bernie or Bust” is a very real trend. I believe that for those who are attracted to this movement, Clinton fails the most important test that they have for a presidential candidate.
The good news is that there is a solution to this dilemma, a solution that seems painfully obvious. Those who truly care about SCOTUS should nominate Bernie Sanders for the very simple reason that Sanders will attract more votes than Hillary Clinton in the general election. All the world — even the Pope, for goodness sake — has taken notice that Bernie Sanders is drawing enormous and excited crowds, by advocating the same ideals in 2016 that he has been consistently advocating for decades. Hot off the press is news that according to a new AP/Gfk poll,
[Sanders] has one clear advantage over his Democratic and Republican presidential rivals — a lot of people actually like him.
By 48 percent to 39 percent, more Americans have a favorable than an unfavorable opinion of Sanders, giving him the best net-positive rating in the field, according to a new Associated Press-GfK poll. Unlike the other candidates, Sanders also is doing better as more Americans get to know him: His favorable rating is up from an earlier AP-GfK poll.
Furthermore, unlike Clinton, Sanders also consistently beats ALL leading Republican candidates, in general election polling. And he also consistently beats conservative opponents by wider margins than Clinton.
Bernie Sanders RCP Average | Hillary Clinton RCP Average | |
Donald Trump | Sanders +16.5 | Clinton +10.6 |
Ted Cruz | Sanders +10.1 | Clinton +2.5 |
John Kasich | Sanders +2.7 | Kasich +6.6 |
Independents and millennials are highly attracted to Bernie, and Republicans even seem to have a thing for him too (link, link, link, link). In fact, Crossovers for Bernie is a group on Daily Kos that has been established better keep track of them.
When I am asked
Q. “Will you support Hillary Clinton if she wins the nomination?”
my answer now is
A. "Hillary will not win in November, which is why I am doing everything that I can now to help Bernie win the nomination. I recommend that you do the same, that is, if you truly care about SCOTUS."
5) Project Details / Description
I went down many false paths before I found the kind of data I was looking for, but here I will describe only the best ones as I explain my project results. One key step was to divide all of the states into three general categories based on their past voting behavior: progressive, conservative, and moderate. I examined presidential election records back through 1992, the year Bill Clinton first became president. More specifically, I identified which presidential candidate won each state in each election. Frankly, the results surprised me, because I was not aware that certain states voted along party lines with significant regularity.
“Progressive” States
A number of states share a remarkable pattern of consistently voting for the Democratic nominee in every presidential election:
2012 | 2008 | 2004 | 2000 | 1996 | 1992 | Electoral Votes | |
Massachusetts | Obama | Obama | Kerry | Gore | Clinton | Clinton | 11 |
Illinois | Obama | Obama | Kerry | Gore | Clinton | Clinton | 20 |
Hawaii | Obama | Obama | Kerry | Gore | Clinton | Clinton | 4 |
Maine | Obama | Obama | Kerry | Gore | Clinton | Clinton | 4 |
Vermont | Obama | Obama | Kerry | Gore | Clinton | Clinton | 3 |
Minnesota | Obama | Obama | Kerry | Gore | Clinton | Clinton | 10 |
Wisconsin | Obama | Obama | Kerry | Gore | Clinton | Clinton | 10 |
Michigan | Obama | Obama | Kerry | Gore | Clinton | Clinton | 16 |
Washington | Obama | Obama | Kerry | Gore | Clinton | Clinton | 12 |
* states that have not yet voted in a primary are not listed
Note I am using the word “progressive” in a very specific and hopefully non-controversial way: any and all states that have this particular voting pattern qualify for this category. My original working assumption is that the Democratic nominee, be it Clinton or Sanders, will once again win these states in 2016. The total combined number of electoral votes for the above states is 90.
Information about 2016 voter turnout for the primaries in these states will be provided in a companion diary to be published soon.
“Conservative” States
My definition of “conservative” is defined in a similar fashion. These states share a pattern of consistently voting for the Republican nominee in every presidential election (Georgia varies slightly, but I made a judgment call to include it in this group anyway).
2012 | 2008 | 2004 | 2000 | 1996 | 1992 | Electoral Votes | |
Georgia | Romney | McCain | W. Bush | W. Bush | Dole | Clinton | 16 |
Mississippi | Romney | McCain | W. Bush | W. Bush | Dole | H.W. Bush | 6 |
Texas | Romney | McCain | W. Bush | W. Bush | Dole | H.W. Bush | 38 |
South Carolina | Romney | McCain | W. Bush | W. Bush | Dole | H.W. Bush | 9 |
Alabama | Romney | McCain | W. Bush | W. Bush | Dole | H.W. Bush | 9 |
Oklahoma | Romney | McCain | W. Bush | W. Bush | Dole | H.W. Bush | 7 |
Kansas | Romney | McCain | W. Bush | W. Bush | Dole | H.W. Bush | 6 |
Alaska | Romney | McCain | W. Bush | W. Bush | Dole | H.W. Bush | 3 |
Utah | Romney | McCain | W. Bush | W. Bush | Dole | H.W. Bush | 6 |
Idaho | Romney | McCain | W. Bush | W. Bush | Dole | H.W. Bush | 4 |
Nebraska | Romney | McCain | W. Bush | W. Bush | Dole | H.W. Bush | 5 |
* states that have not yet voted in a primary are not listed
My original working assumption is that the Republican nominee, whoever that person may be, will win these states in 2016. The total combined number of electoral votes for the above states is 109.
Information about 2016 voter turnout for the primaries in these states will be provided in a companion diary to be published soon.
“Moderate” States
My definition of “moderate” consists of all states that do not meet either of the two previous definitions. These states have more of a mixed record of backing both Democratic and Republican candidates.
2012 | 2008 | 2004 | 2000 | 1996 | 1992 | Electoral Votes | |
Nevada | Obama | Obama | W. Bush | W. Bush | Clinton | Clinton | 6 |
Louisiana | Romney | McCain | W. Bush | W. Bush | Clinton | Clinton | 8 |
North Carolina | Romney | Obama | W. Bush | W. Bush | Dole | H.W. Bush | 15 |
Iowa | Obama | Obama | W. Bush | W. Bush | Clinton | Clinton | 6 |
Arizona | Romney | McCain | W. Bush | W. Bush | Clinton | H.W. Bush | 11 |
Virginia | Obama | Obama | W. Bush | W. Bush | Dole | H.W. Bush | 13 |
Florida | Obama | Obama | W. Bush | W. Bush | Clinton | H.W. Bush | 29 |
Missouri | Romney | McCain | W. Bush | W. Bush | Clinton | Clinton | 10 |
Ohio | Obama | Obama | W. Bush | W. Bush | Clinton | Clinton | 18 |
Arkansas | Romney | McCain | W. Bush | W. Bush | Clinton | Clinton | 6 |
Tennessee | Romney | McCain | W. Bush | W. Bush | Clinton | Clinton | 11 |
New Hampshire | Obama | Obama | Kerry | W. Bush | Clinton | Clinton | 4 |
Colorado | Obama | Obama | W. Bush | W. Bush | Dole | Clinton | 9 |
* states that have not yet voted in a primary are not listed
The behavior of voters in these“moderate” states is less predictable than the behavior of voters in the other states, and so I decided I needed to pay special attention to them. The total combined number of electoral votes for the above states is 140.
Notes:
- Total number of electoral votes for all states that have completed their primaries to date:
90 + 109 + 140 = 339 - Total number of electoral votes for all remaining states: 199
- Total possible number of electoral votes: 339 + 199 = 538
- Number of electoral votes required to win the presidency of the United States: 270 (a little more than half of the total available).
Information about 2016 voter turnout for the primaries in these states will be provided in a companion diary to be published soon.
5.1 Voter Turnout in Moderate States
At the end of the day, the most important numbers in any election boil down to
- how many people come out to vote for your candidate?
- how many people come out to vote for each of their opponents?
As a starting point for the project, I examined voter turnout in the primaries that have been held to date. Of special interest is turnout numbers from both sides of the aisle in the states that will likely be the most competitive in the general election: the moderate states.
More information on this topic will be provided in a companion diary to be published soon.
5.2 Exit Polling in Moderate States
Now that you understand the definitions being used for progressive, conservative, and moderate, you are ready for the really good stuff: the exit polling results. Due to the length of this diary, I will only share the results for three questions, the most important ones because they are the ones on which Clinton and Sanders voters disagree the most strongly.
The same convention is used in all of the graphs:
- progressive states are grouped to the left (MA, IL, VT ...)
- conservative states are grouped in the middle (GA, MS, TX ...)
- moderate states are grouped to the right (NV, NC, IA ...).
Note that only the states for which exit polling was performed are included in these graphs, for the simple reason that exit polling results are the source data from which the graphs are generated.
Within each group, states at the left have the lowest ratio of Republican/Democrat turnout results, states at the right have the highest ratios; so in each group, states at the left are relatively easier for Democrats to win (according to primary turnouts) and states at the right are more difficult.
Q1- Is Clinton honest and trustworthy?
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The above graph and table shows results when all voters who attended the Democratic primaries (about 15.6 million people) are viewed as a single population, based on exit polling results. Note that in Nevada and Iowa, this question was not asked on their state exit polls. |
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The above graph and table shows results when only the exit polls of those who voted for Hillary Clinton are examined (about 8.9 million people). Compared to the first graph, the blue bars are dramatically longer. Clinton voters as a group think that Clinton is honest and trustworthy much more than the average primary voter. |
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The above graph and table shows results when only the exit polls of those who voted for Bernie Sanders are examined (about 6.5 million people). Compared to the first graph, the red bars are dramatically longer. Sanders voters as a group think that Clinton is honest and trustworthy much less than the average primary voter. The pattern appears to be relatively consistent over all states; voters in progressive states possibly answer NO more frequently than those in the other groups. |
Q2- Satisfied if Clinton wins the nomination?
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The above graph and table shows results when all voters who attended the Democratic primaries (about 15.6 million people) are viewed as a single population, based on exit polling results. Note that in all states that have yellow bars, this question was not asked on their state exit polls. Over the population of all voters, 61% answered YES and 18% answered NO. Note, however, that 20% of all voters were not given the opportunity to answer this question so the values 61% and 18% are misleading on the low side. To compensate, a second set of metrics was taken over only voters that had this question on their exit poll (15.624 - 3.156 = 12.469 million people). Over that population, 76% answered YES (9.489/12.469) and 23% answered NO (2.828/12.469) |
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The above graph and table shows results when only the exit polls of those who voted for Hillary Clinton are examined (about 8.9 million people). Compared to the first graph, the blue bars are dramatically longer. Over the population of Clinton voters only, 81% answered YES and 1% answered NO. These values are misleading and on the low side because 17% of this population was not given the opportunity to answer this question. To compensate, a second set of metrics was taken over only voters that had this question on their exit poll (8.858 - 1.508 = 7.352 million people). Over that population, 98% answered YES (7.199/7.352) and 2% answered NO (0.133/7.352). Clearly Clinton voters would be highly satisfied if Clinton wins the Democratic nomination. |
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The above graph and table shows results when only the exit polls of those who voted for Bernie Sanders are examined (about 6.5 million people). Compared to the first graph, the red bars are much longer. Over the population of Sanders voters only, 34% answered YES and 38% answered NO. These values are misleading and on the low side because 25% of this population was not given the opportunity to answer this question. To compensate, a second set of metrics was taken over only voters that had this question on their exit poll (6.510 - 1.606 = 4.904 million people). Over that population, 45% answered YES (2.201/4.904 ) and 51% answered NO (2.502/4.904 ). The majority of Sanders voters will not be satisfied if Clinton wins the Democratic nomination. The pattern appears to be consistent over all states, and even more pronounced in the progressive states. |
Q3- Candidate quality that matters most?
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The above graph and table shows results when all voters who attended the Democratic primaries (about 15.6 million people) are viewed as a single population, based on exit polling results. The top answer was “Has the right experience” (30%), followed closely by “Cares about people like me” (28%) and “Honest and Trustworthy” (27%). Note that over this population, “Can win” is the least popular answer (13%). |
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The above graph and table shows results when only the exit polls of those who voted for Hillary Clinton are examined (about 8.9 million people). Compared to the first graph, the green bars are longer. The clear favorite was “Has the right experience” (46%). Much farther back are “Cares about people like me” (21%) and “Can win” (18%). Note that over this population, “Honest and Trustworthy” is the least popular answer (13%). |
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The above graph and table shows results when only the exit polls of those who voted for Bernie Sanders are examined (about 6.5 million people). Compared to the first graph, the red and yellow bars are both much longer. The top answer was “Honest and Trustworthy” (46%), followed by “Cares about people like me” (37%). Note that over this population, “Can win” is the least popular answer (6%). |
Comments
"...she's ultimately better than any republican candidate..."
--that's just it, tho...she IS a republican candidate--running under the banner of the wrong party--& i seriously doubt she's better than any of them, especially when it comes to accomplishments/character/judgement/credibility.
in fact, i think she loses to all of them on that score.
Well, that's the thing...
I've been speaking a lot about (how messed up) American politics (is) with my students and colleagues in Austria, and they've told me that Bernie's pretty much a centrist in most respects--even slightly center-right. I know people have been talking about this point ad infinitum in other spots, but that's how far to the right we've gone.
Elections are just around the corner in Austria (literally next week), and even the Austrian extreme right-wing party (Freedom Party of Austria) doesn't even hold a candle to what we have in the states. Even Clinton would be seen by some here as belonging to that party (not to even think about how much further to the right Cruz, Drumpf, or Kasich might be...)! They even have their own Donald Trump running as an independent (Richard Lugner), so to see the bizarre success that Trump himself has been having is mind-boggling to them.
Things are getting weird this election cycle...
It is damned hard to give up the thought of
doing anything possible to beat a Repugnant. I made the pledge earlier this year to vote HRC if I have to, because of that. And I'm still having a hard time thinking I won't do that. But I too am reneging on my pledge. I have evolved and just can no longer be a ConservaDem. Your mother may come around too. For all of our fears, even a Trump or Cruz POTUS does not mean instant death, not really, even if it feels like it might. And it is horrible to think of contributing in any way to their victory. But the Democrats only have themselves to blame there, they've sold us out so long now they really do think we're stupid enough to allow it to continue.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
Right On
It feels good, feels right, to me, leaving Kos finally, I still go there.
My observations are that Hillary, and the Clintons, generally are divisive. But hell, George Bush was divisive. Richard Nixon, you KNOW he was divisive!
Bernie Sanders is inclusive. To me, it is the most gratifying facet of his awesome campaign (I saw a post in TOP that said Bernie's campaign was the worst run he'd ever seen. I suppose he was an expert, but, yeah... never mind, there's too much there!). Listen to his language, it is the language of honesty, of integrity.
If Bernie Sanders says it, by golly you can take that to the bank. A good bank, not a bank like Goldman Sachs..
Bernie is a win-win.
agree, with one exception: Grayson is one of the wealthiest
members of the House. Other candidates need campaign donations much more than he does.
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." --Jiddu Krishnamurti
I Recall Mary Scott O'Conner's Famous Post
If we don't elect Bernie Sanders, We are Fucked!
...remember that one... blast from the past.
When governance gets as bad as it can, and I am afraid that it can get worse under Hillary, in that the bankers will continue to be insulated from ordinary regulations, basically a perpetuation of the oligarchy that seems to be replacing our Democracy.
I am sure that Hillary will continue to insulate the bankers who made her rich if she is elected. The idea is, I think, that we are supposed to think that this wealth and income inequality is a benign Benefit of our capitalist society, and not a corrosive evil to be eradicated from our midst.
It's like thinking having a Wal-Mart is the best thing that could happen to a small town. It's not the best thing, really. It's the worst thing.
Bernie is a win-win.
Please vote Green or Socialist whenever you can!
This could be a pivotal moment in third party evolution, and dog knows the ballot access and funding problems are significant. A write-in will most likely NOT be counted (check your state law) and thus will look "blank". If you vote third party, you can send a message, and strengthen their voice at the same time
My problem with a write-in for Bernie is...
... it's too easy to just wash it away under the covers. So I'll vote Green instead. The Green platform aligns well with Bernie anyway and it'll be harder to hide the support and may even elevate the Green party into a viable contender.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
And think of how pissed off Bill Clinton
would be if not only did Hillary lose to Trump, but the Green Party took most of "her" votes! That actually might leave a mark...
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
Heard Koch brothers supporting Paul Ryan
brokered convention and put Paul Ryan as Republican candidate
learned from an atty in contact with "important" people
I trust what he said
No votes for Clinton
from this household. This election will improve the country one way or another - if it can't be in the short term then in the medium term.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Quick summary about my conclusions
Although I predicted a Trump nomination I'm now thinking not. He has had a terrible two weeks. On top of that the GOP is smelling victory if they can run Kasich or Ryan, especially against Clinton.
Bernie is not a normal regular alternative to HRC. His ideas represent revolution. He has exposed the great lie of both Hillary and the Democratic Party insiders. They represent more of the same, make the people bleed so that the oligarchs can enjoy their political and economic dominance. Make war everywhere to guarantee US military hegemony everywhere in the world. If they aren't making war they are busy trying to undermine governments that are even the slightest challenge to the US. This is self-reinforcing as the MIC then pays to elect more neocons. If you want to get depressed research the concept of "area denial" from the US military perspective. Their goal is to be able to bomb the hell out of every square meter of surface in the world. That's why they hate Russia and China so much.
Back to Bernie. Once you have made the transition to the new mindset there is no going back. It's a one-way trip. Clinton needed to squash Bernie early in the game to protect her chance of re-establishing the old Democratic Party. But she didn't for self evident reasons, she is incapable of good long term strategy and Bernie's message is an order of magnitude more potent than Clinton guessed.
So who will I vote for? I will make up my mind after the nominations. My choices are write-in for Bernie, Jill Stein, not vote, or vote for a Republican(ugh, but I might decide that stopping Clinton was a much higher goal). We'll see.
Capitalism has always been the rule of the people by the oligarchs. You only have two choices, eliminate them or restrict their power.
Even if Bernie endorses Hillary I'm voting Green Party.
Oligarchy is Oligarchy. We don't vote for it. Between the Bushes and the Clintons when are people going to wake up and see that this country has turned into a monarchy with the kings and queens just puppets for the corporations and rich. There is no America anymore. The world is a corporatocracy with the borders just an illusion to keep the 99% fighting each other for scraps.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho
Should HRC lose the general, the weakminded
establishment will blame Sanders and his unicorn-dreaming supporters for standing on principle and refusing to vote for HRC. (Except, of course, that they won't call it "standing on principle", they will call it, "throwing a tantrum" or some such).
The truth is that, notwithstanding the adamance of commenters in this thread, the fraction of November voters who would withhold their votes on principle is probably pretty small. What would kill HRC in the general is that millions of people wouldn't care about voting for her one way or another. They'll stay home, not out of resentment over not getting that damned metaphorical pony, but because HRC will give them nothing in particular to vote for, and something to vote for is what gets about 20% of voters off the couch and to the polls.
HRC kicked ass amongst African-American voters in the south, but how good was the actual turnout of that demographic (Honest question, I don't know)? She barely squeaked out a victory in Milwaukee county, because, yeah, she's still winning the majority of African-American votes cast, but I suspect that she isn't motivating most African-Americans to vote at all.
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
You are correct about people staying home
not voting will not be principled for most, just habit. But that is correct - people on our side of the aisle turn out to vote FOR something which inspires them. Democrats need to fall in love is a truism.
The people who will be driven to the polls to vote should Hillary be the Dem nominee are the folks on the other side of the aisle who love to hate her.
* * *
On your question about AA turnout, I cannot link to stats on it, but I believe it is documented that African American female voters reliably turn out in the highest percentages of demographic counts.
'What we are left with is an agency mandated to ensure transparency and disclosure that is actually working to keep the public in the dark' - Ann M. Ravel, former FEC member
I've seen that assertion about African American women,
but the important questions are:
A: How regional is that effect?
B: How was turnout this year relative to other years, rather than other demographics?
C: Which years/elections are included in those stats?
I guarantee you that, other than the 2008 Democratic presidential primary and the 2008 and 2012 General elections, African American women in Milwaukee County have not been turning out at the same rates as white voters in Dane County, WI or, sickenly, Waukesha.
The bottom line from my perspective is that Democratic candidates treat the African American turnout with an odd indifference, considering that there's a 90%+ chance that any African American who votes is going to vote for the Democrat. The Milwaukee numbers from 2008 and 2012 make it clear: African Americans will turn out in numbers comparable to others, if they can be persuaded that they have an interest in the outcome. With Obama on the ticket, millions of otherwise non-voting African Americans looked up and thought, "Whoa. Electing this man will make a fundamental difference in my life and in my community." -- but that case made itself, it didn't need to be made.
Contrary to the hokum peddled by the HRC punditry and sycophantry, those same millions don't believe that HRC has anything special to offer them -- if they did, Milwaukee County would have turned out about 30K additional voters last week. And to be honest, the Sanders campaign similarly failed to make the case. And moreover, I don't think that case is ever going to be made by phone-banking and TV/radio ads: It's only going to be made by recruiting people to spread the word, face-to-face, on the streets and the doorsteps, one vote at a time.
And then the part that the politicians and fixers can't wrap their heads around: after winning the election, they need to fucking come through. They need to make the changes, and to the extent that they fail to do so, they need to go straight back into those communities and explain why they've failed (e.g., Republican and Conservadem obstruction).
They need to stop the war on
drugscrimeAfrican American males, the war that devastates families and communities. They need to clean up the schools, and bring economic opportunities into the ghettoes -- yes, I used that word -- of places like Milwaukee County. It's not fucking rocket science. Do you think the average politically-marginalized African American living under American Apartheid gives a flying fuck about abortion rights and corporate personhood? Really? Because personally, I doubt it, and something interesting to me is that although plenty of people are eager to tell me I don't know fuckall about what ordinary (as opposed to activist) African Americans really feel, nobody seems to be trying very hard to get those folks' voices to any place where I can hear them.(Incidentally, I also wonder whether stats on African American males voting are skewed by a failure to account for the large fraction of that demographic who have been disenfranchised by the police war on
drugscrimeAfrican American males.)The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
They need to fucking come through
and that right there is the problem - they don't, and have not since at least Bill Clinton, but Carter didn't really do much either in coming through with actual changes and he certainly didn't hurt the plutocrats much. And that right there is why Dem turnout is low and getting lower - why bother to make that effort when nothing progressive ever happens? What difference does it make to even vote anymore? We've been battling that for decades, and Hillary is merely the culmination. Sanders offers honesty and real positions that he will fight for even if he loses. She represents whatever sells well that day, to that audience, and the next day, the next "position" for the next audience.
And that condescension of hers was NEVER going to win over anyone, but in particular younger voters. The last thing they want to hear is how she simply "knows better." I don't want to hear that tripe either, and I'm just as repulsed by it the more she does it.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
How good was the actual turnout of that demographic?
I've got stats for that! It's in Part II, the companion diary. It was originall in this one, but I took it out to try to shorten the diary. If you think this one is long, you should have seen the first draft!
My view is that millenials and independents don't feel they owe anything to anybody. They'll likely stay home and drink heavily, lol. I agree, HRC gives them nothing to vote FOR. Because she stands for nothing, she constantly runs in front of the parade and tries to pretend that she is leading it.
~OaWN
if the millennials that I met at Occupy
are any indication, you are right. The ones I met were not only very intelligent and aware of the issues, but they expressed disgust for both organized political parties.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
That is a spot-on analogy!
I would like to steal that, if you don't mind.
Feel free to take it anytime
I probably stole it myself from someone once upon a time ...
~OaWN
Of course - Remember kids
Progressives have nothing to do with any victory and are the sole cause for all democratic defeats.
I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it."
John Stuart Mill (1806 - 1873)
It won't be the people voting against her
It will be the people who do not bother to vote at all that will hurt her the most.
"You can't just leave those who created the problem in charge of the solution."---Tyree Scott
Do we really care what the establishment thinks?
Fuck 'em. That's the whole point of this thing.
This shit is bananas.
Waitaminit, I was told there was to be no math here....
Seriously, though, excellent work. I remember back in '08 that was my main reason for preferring Obama over Hillary; I believed then as I believe now, nominating Hillary guarantees a Republican in the White House.
As for the Supreme Court, I don't think that is anything like a deciding factor in the voting public's mind for a very simple reason: After Bush v. Gore there is little to recommend the Supreme Court as any kind of guarantor of rights. It is merely another corrupt, partisan institution in the capitol.
"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it."
-- John Lennon
Sorry, I didn't hear that rule ...
I love math. I know you were just funnin with me, so I wanted to thank you for the smile you put on my face
And Obama's nominee is in favor of CU. WTF? First TPP, now this?
I hope it's 3 dimensional chess or something ... but geez.
~OaWN
This diary is top of the rec list
A rant using a lot of the themes you've covered:
http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/4/12/1514516/-I-have-tried-to-stay-...
'What we are left with is an agency mandated to ensure transparency and disclosure that is actually working to keep the public in the dark' - Ann M. Ravel, former FEC member
Thanks for the heads up!
~OaWN
Hiya Older and Wiser
My personal belief is that the party was suppressing the vote, especially early on. The lower the turnout, the more likely the desired outcome of an HRC win. There was almost no MSM coverage of the Democratic race and still comparatively little. Debbie opted for a non existent debate schedule and a fait de compli meme ran throughout the party messaging.
I can't tell from your data if there was especially low turnout early (except for a strong NH) but I think Bernie would have won IA and NV with a better GOTV.
Several states are in the wrong column
Clinton Derangement Syndrome is real.
TN, MO, LA & AZ are in the bag for the Republicans.
I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it."
John Stuart Mill (1806 - 1873)
FYI, the definition I used for Conservative is explained
in the diary.
It had to do with voting patterns. In my diary, all it really is used for is to divide a big number of states into smaller groups. If you care about any state in particular, just find it on the graph and pretend it was in the group you prefer.
I actually realzed that some states in the moderate group are very conservative, as you say, and thought about donig something to highlight it, but it took to much time so I just stopped.
~OaWN
In my house, we have all decided
to write in Sanders name.
We can not and will not ever vote for a Republican - which is what HRC is. Not even if the DNC endorses one.
I will fight and protest against Trump or Hillary. Both are terribly wrong.
"Love One Another" ~ George Harrison
Great job OWN! Heading over to TOP now to rec it there.
Thank you posting here at C99.
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons
I posted the following
I posted the following analysis over on another blogsite. I'd appreciate it if any folks here would read it and comment. Am I right or wrong?
This was posted after a back-and-forth conversation with one particular Clinton supporter that had been continuing for two days. After I posted this, he never responded again. Although a different poster chimed in to claim that she personally knows many independent and Republican women who were Romney voters in 2012, but who would vote for Hillary because she's a woman. I asked her why they would cross over for Hillary when they already had obviously passed up the chance to vote for a Republican woman (Carly Fiorina), and she basically just said "because Carly was a horrible candidate". And Hillary isn't?
I think you make very good points here
my only caveat would be that she hopes what that supporter of hers said - to gain some Repugnant votes, although I highly doubt it is only because HRC is female. I think that's been part of HRC's strategy with the Reagan worship, and I still don't put it past Bill to have convinced Trump to run - thinking no one in their right mind would really vote Trump over Hillary. IF it isn't, then she's simply a worse candidate than even I think she is.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
HRC's strategy with the
Interesting point - it never occurred to me to consider that a conscious ploy, I just figured it was a case of pandering to whoever was right in front of her at that moment. But yeah, it makes sense if she is intentionally making a play for GOP establishment types ("centrists" just like her). In which case she could win, but feel even less need to throw any crumbs our way.
There really
isn't much evidence I can see that Clinton will lose much of Sanders support.
Clinton runs above 90% among Democrats - about as well as Obama did. She has problems with young voters who do not like her. But her margins currently aren't greatly different in trial heats than Obama's were.
Bernie runs better than she does, but is is not like she is likely to lose, or that she won't win the vast majority of Bernie supporters int he primaries.
She's still in trouble
It doesn't matter if most Democrats will vote for her. They only make up 28% of registered voters. No one is going to win with only 28% of the vote. She NEEDS the independents and they go for Bernie by about 70%. Thinking they will automatically vote for her, which is the assumption her campaign seems to be going on, is more wishful thinking than a real strategy.
I left the Democratic party the day after I cast my vote for Bernie in my state's primary. I have NO loyalty to them and will not vote for HRC under any circumstance. That goes for any DLC/Third Way/Corporate candidate.
Would you hire a baysitter that you didn't trust to watch
your kids?
The Sanders voters who vote for Hillary are essentially answering YES to that question.
"But the GOP is worse!"
A lot of people are very tired of playing this game. Even when we win, we lose (Obama TPP, SC nominee in favor of CU).
Sometimes there are lines in the sand that people just won't cross.
~OaWN
I'll be going for a hat trick
should Hillary be on the ballot.
I've voted against a Clinton twice already, soo....
Never voted republican and didn't vote for Perot
Perot was crazy though his ears were strangely mesmerizing.
With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU
No guilt here.
If the Democratic Party wants my vote, they can nominate a Democrat. And I mean a Democrat, not one of the current, snooty country-club, protect stock prices at all costs Republicans who call themselves Democrats and lie to us every four years. I mean a JFK, FDR, Harry Truman Democrat. If they don't want my vote, fine. But we liberals have begged and pleaded for crumbs for far, far too long. We've been called "f-ing retards" in return. Obama will talk to Republicans but not to the progressive caucus. How dare they blame me if a Republican who calls himself a Republican wins the White House? I'm tired of hoping and begging. Bernie is the real thing. It's like a damned miracle. He wins or I walk.
Twain Disciple
True story. I'd like to second that.
I proudly voted for Obama in 2008. 2012 involved a great deal of nose-holding, but the fact remained that there was still enough of him to get by on for another four years. Mitt Romney? AYFKM? I should vote against Obama so I could look at Little
Eddie MunsterPaul Ryan for four years? GAH, NO!So I am, by definition here, an Obama voter. And that woman will never get my vote. And I'm far from alone. So if Hillary is counting on "all Obama voters", she's in for a rude awakening come November, if she
stealswins the primary.Pages