Open Thread - Thurs 30 Nov 2023 - Ludus Latrunculorum
Ludus Latrunculorum
Hope everyone had a great holiday! I have not been in the mood to do much news/media reading in the last week so... how's about we learn about a game? One that proceeded, and perhaps in part gave birth, to chess?
Ludus latrunculorum was a very, very popular game amongst soldiers, and probably everyone else of the 'lower' classes, during the late Roman Republic and the Roman Empire. There is archaeological evidence for the game (here's a fairly recent find of a game board), consisting of the game boards and the pieces. There is a written evidence of the game, basically mentioning it being played by soldiers and others. But sadly, no writer discussed the rules of the game or how it was played in any detail.
A Ludus Latrunculum game board found after it was reused as flooring at the Roman fort of Vindolanda in Northern England from Archaeology.org
The name means 'game of thieves' or 'game of brigands' or 'game of soldiers'. There were two players for each game, and the board looked similar to what we would call a chess board, or a draughts (checkers) board (see the image above of the game board found at Vindolanda for example). It was a strategy game. Each player would try to surround the game pieces of the opposing player and capture them. It is not known for sure if there was a more flexible and valuable leader piece, a duke or general. The game might have been played without the leader piece as well. Perhaps both things were true. It's not known how the pieces were moved and what constituted a capture, but people have made reconstructions with various rules - see for example here and here, and they play those games even now!
Here's a video about playing the game:
So, Enjoy playing whatever games you like, and thanks for reading. Here's the open thread - and remember, everything is interesting if you dive deep enough, so tell us about where you're diving!
Comments
Happy Day!
Hope the day has gone and is going well for everyone! It's been cold here, but we should finally be getting some rain. Yes, Yes, PacNW, rain. But we are in a drought, like much of the rest of the country. So rain is ok!
When writing this post my hubby noted, 'This post resembles the writer, it's short!'. So, it is kinda short, and yea, I am kinda short to someone who's 6 ft 2in like hubby!
Post whatever you want in the comments. I love learning all the stuff and hearing all the news!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Please tell me humanity can't be so depraved
I'm sorry for posting this but someone had to. How the Zionists
can do this and the fascists in DC help them in this is beyond
my comprehension
I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish
"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"
Heard from Margaret Kimberley
Too many things just don’t add up
First there was the people who monitor the border telling their superiors that Hamas was seen many times at the border doing nefarious things only to be told to shut up.
Then Israel moving lots of its troops out of the area and into the West Bank and not responding for hours.
The Israeli helicopters killing their own civilians and many, many cars were destroyed by bombs.
And why did Bibi finally get to see Biden just weeks before this happened? And why did he hold up a map that had no Palestine on it?
Then there’s the history of Bibi helping to fund Hamas for years and they live in luxury in Qatar and have visits with the CIA and Mossad. Qatar is in control of giving Hamas the money. Must have been a lot of money to get ready for the surprise attack don’t you think?
I will take off my tinfoil hat now.
Was Humpty Dumpty pushed?
I think your tinfoil
Is completely warranted. I agree with all you've said here, so maybe we're both wearing tin foil?
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
I know 'they' try to say different...
about why the Israelis went into Gaza but ... anyone with a brain can see that they want to exterminate the Palestinians. All of them. And take over the area they had up until the Romans started to kick them out 2000 years ago, with help from their own elites (like Josephus). So, bombing and killing children? It's in the plan. Women? In the plan. Civilian Men? In the plan. Destroy homes, hospitals, schools? In the plan. Netanyhoo-a&&hole has always said this, ALWAYS. It's in the plan. Many Israeli attitudes, especially in the government and military, come down to this. Palestinines are, to them, animals. Not human. Can destroy them with impunity. And yes, that's EXACTLY how the Nazis viewed the Jews (and the disabled, and oftentimes, the Russian peasants...).
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Good morning...
Ancient games are interesting. Many are still played. Two that come to mind are Go and Mancala
Many I never hear of are in this Smithsonian article. It includes Ludus Latrunculorum.
Thanks for the introduction. It was new to me.
We're due a rain tonight and through the weekend and it is much needed. Today's new map has taken us out of the exceptional drought category.
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Human Go champions v. AI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(game)#Computers_and_Go
I wasn't aware of the Kellin Pelrine story. Although I "intuited" that this flaw existed. But after the one champion was shut out in 2017 I lost interest.
語必忠信 行必正直
Wow..
This was something I knew nothing about. Hopefully AI is not allowed in actual championships! Yeesh.
Kellin Pelrine... never heard of them before. I'm glad I did now, it's heartening to know that humans can still beat AI, for now.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Great info about ancient board games!
Thanks! I am reading the websites and thinking about making a board for ludus latrunculorum, or maybe finding a way to play it online :). Might try Go too.
We are not in exceptional drought, yet. But, it is not as wet as 'normal', whatever that is/was. No water in the ditches, the streams are dry, the winter lake has not yet appeared. Rain is good, sometimes! I hope you get enough over time to take you out of any drought at all, but not flood!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
If ill will toward a dead guy was ever
warranted, the guy would be Henry Kissinger.
I ran across such a speaking ill of the dead remark: "Henry, enjoy your new 'tropical' location."
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
I had exactly the same urge...
to speak ill of the dead, upon hearing of his passing. I muttered, 'About damn time!' and said a few other choice things. Great quote about his new 'tropical' vacation.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Not a board game,
but stadiums in Guatemala where a type of soccer games were held for the rulers, with the winning team being honored by being drugged out of their minds, then having their hearts cut out by the king atop a pyramid. Afterwards, their bodies were rolled down the side of the pyramid, apparently to great cheering by the crowd.
I guess this is what is meant by playing your hearts out.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
So, did the players become gods?
I mean, if it were me playing, I'd do everything I could do lose. But, it ain't my religion so maybe it's different if one believes they will be a god after the king murders them.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Nah...
There parents were proud, I guess.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Good morning, Sima, glad you got rain.
I assume that there is enough historical information to support the determination that the game tokens sit in the cells, like checkers, and not on the intersections, like go. I watched the video with the sound off, a practice I sometimes engage in. This one had one looong intro where nothing changed visually, a class or category of such vids that I find a bit strange, but whatever.
I noticed a game token slightly different from the others and placed "in front" of them. This is how we can gauge the game's antiquity. Presumably that piece is the "leader", out busy leading the troops. Today's leaders are not out front of the troops, and, in fact, aren't generally even out among the troops. Today that token would be completely off the board somewhere drinking cognac and eating caviar.
be well and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
I think there is some information...
about where the pieces sit, basically in the form of paintings, wall illustrations and such. The leader is out in front, exactly! Some versions of the game appeared to have no leader. And the board size varies, but the squares in a line are always uneven in number.
Love the comment about how today's leader tokens would be off the board drinking cognac and eating caviar!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
2 questions of historical interest regarding the subject game.
1) Did Publius Quinctilius Varus ever play said game?
2) Did he ever win?
be well and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Bet he didn't...
'cause he wasn't a 'common' soldier.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Subsequent to ancient board games
"only in the capitalist realm" would something like this materialize ..
Perhaps this was the educational tool the fat cats used for their chilluns'
thanks for the OT!
question everything
Actually, it was intended to teach the *evil* of capitalism
But of course it was completely misinterpreted and popularized in the exact opposite way.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Yep
That's what happened to me! Played it a lot, learned the 'rules' of capitalism and hated them. Heh.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
I used to play Monopoly a lot as a kid...
And I always, always won. Always. Hoard the money, then buy everything you can. Like all the billionaires today! Really dislike the game now
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Looks like Pfizer has both sides covered.
Hmmm…
"Tell me again how an industry that makes its money off of sick people is going to give you a 'free shot' to make you super healthy."
Was Humpty Dumpty pushed?
Yep, all they are going to do...
Is give you a shot that'll keep you just sick enough to keep needing shots...
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
ludicrous
this ain't no damn game
but it is a damn shame
they get away with it
think Fauci has a stake in this?
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/faucis-net-worth-doubled-during-...
question everything
This was funny...
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
RIP Shane MacGowan, of the Pogues
who also wrote "Fairytale of New York" died. He was born December 25th, and to celebrate that, I included Fairytale of New York in my 12/25 OT which I loaded up just the other day, and now he's gone. He also used to sing with the Dubliners now and then
be well and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
RIP Shane MacGowan
Just read about Shane's death...
after being out all day. I'm crushed. Maybe that's not a strong enough word... a part of me has died too. I love the Pogues. Love their punk celtic sound.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Well, you got me started
I don't think
I've been reading much but the news these past several weeks. I can't seem to get in to anything else. I did though, listen to a conversation between C. West and G. Maté that was, I thought, really good. They conveyed a trace of hope that humanity is not entirely contemptible. It was (for me) a very welcome conversation in the midst of this terrible time.
I've got that one on my 'to watch' list..
I'm glad to know it is good and worth watching. Thanks!
I forced myself to start reading a book about the domestication of dogs and how they fit into human societies ancient and current. That has gotten my mind off the news, at least for short periods of time. Other than that, it seems like all my current books to read are about politics! Or the Roman Army, heh
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
I have a feeling
Your tactic of choosing less disturbing reading material is a good one. I would probably enjoy the book about dogs. Not sure about the Roman Army one though, maybe if it has pictures and
maps?
I read Mate's book
called In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters with Addiction a while back. I learned a LOT. I really, really like what he and other doctors did for those who are severely addicted and cannot be changed or change. So, I'm gonna haveta look for this new book that you listened to :).
I am going to do a post about the dog book, once I finish it. I think the book will be accessible to everyone as a pdf soon. It's good, but very scholastic. I read about the Roman army to keep myself up to date on whats happening in the archaeology and history of the era. Maybe, someday, I'll go back to working on such myself, maybe. I guess I can hope! A lot of it is pretty boring, but if you wanna read about it, I can suggest some good books with lots of maps and pictures
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
In the above post
So you can be the instigator with regards to this subject and I will happily go along for the ride. Besides it's very fun to learn something new, something you never really considered, and then find that it connects very neatly to something you do know about.
One of my reference points, or window into the history of the Roman incursion into the "flyover country" or "provinces" is the opera Norma. I know that's ridiculous but unfortunately true. The opera features the local Druid priestess who falls in love and marries the Roman head honcho in her area.
It is one of my favorite operas even though the Roman story line was initially very off-putting to me.
Over time I changed my mind about it and now Norma is one of my favorite opera characters. Anyway, who knew archaeology and opera can inspire one another?
The book you mention by Maté sounds good as well. I intend to check out some of his books as I move through my to-read-list. He's a good one.
Hopefully you will do an essay on the book
Dawgs are such an important part of our lives that I can’t imagine not having one. We didn’t have any pets until I was in 10th grade because everyone was allergic to them. I only had to look at a cat when I was young and my eyes would swell closed. I’m still allergic to cats but I can get used to them after a few weeks. When I had my jaw reconstruction I had 2 cats and after being away from them for a few days they had to spend the next 2 months in the basement because if I sneezed I would have blown my face apart. Not kidding. I got my first dawg when I was 23 and I haven’t been without one since except for the 2 months after Charlie died and I was waiting for Sam….
What I’m fascinated about dawgs is how they become attached to us. I thought about that last year when 5 dawgs would meet at the park and play, but when we split up every dawg went with their human. And during the play they would keep an eye on their human to make sure they were still there.
Was Humpty Dumpty pushed?
Dawgs are, as you say, incredibly important...
Got my first dog when I was a kid. He followed me and my brother home from the park. He'd been abandoned. He was GREAT. My Mom didn't want us to have dogs, but my father insisted. Except for when I was in college, I've had a dog as a companion for my whole life. Three dogs. 45 years. Nuts.
I have always had cats too. I think I'm slightly allergic but, I've had cats for so long it's hard to tell. When I go away for a week or more for whatever reason, I have the 'sneezes' when I come back. But not like you've had. That sucks, sneezing so hard you'd blow your face apart.
I'm fascinated by how dogs become attached to us too. How they know so much about what we are thinking, feeling, doing. And they do know tons about it. It's hard, at times, for us humans to interpret. But, today, I was going with hubby to the store. I carried my 'purse' (it's a backpack) out to the truck and put it inside. Then I let Jaska outside to go to the bathroom. She had seen me bring the purse downstairs, she KNEW I was going somewhere but didn't see me put the purse into the truck. She sniffed out the purse in the truck, even with the door closed, and then sat in front of the truck door and asked to go with us. When I told her she couldn't (she can't leap high enough to get into the truck seat anymore), she got a sad face and slowly went back inside. How does she know all that? How do I?
I'm going to write a post about the book, maybe several posts, once I finish it. It's fascinating! I hope I can give a link to a pdf of it too, we'll see how it goes
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
When my dawgs can no longer jump in the car
I bring out the ramp my dad built. About a foot wide and 5 feet long and covered in heavy grade carpet. Up they go.
He also built stairs for the bed with the same carpet. Don’t know why he built them so wide, but 5 dawgs have used them and the board. Hubby a builder?
Was Humpty Dumpty pushed?
I love this idea
Yes I put the ramp up for them to exit too
once they start having difficulty with their joints. Anything to make them more comfortable as they age. Both Bailey and Abby got crippling arthritis, but Abby responded well to glucosamine with MSN which I got at Walmart. Now that Sam is 3 I’m going to start her on a low dose of it and hopefully she won’t get it. I wanted her to be taller and skinnier, but she is short legged and more heavy than I want. It’s not like she’s a couch potato tho. She gets to run around for an hour almost every day. Including today even though it’s snowing. She tells me that I have a coat and gloves.
Lots of pet supplies sell stairs and ramps, but neither have carpet on them and they look unstable to me. None of my dawgs could have jumped on the bed because it’s so high and I couldn’t lift them. One of the few things I’m grateful for my dad for building these for my dawgs. I think they are 20 years old if not more.
Was Humpty Dumpty pushed?
I like the idea
It’s the human variety and I think the brand name is Smith
I will check to make sure. I gave it to Abby with ice cream or peanut butter.
Was Humpty Dumpty pushed?
Thanks
I'll do some research on it as well.
got a set of aluminum folding ramps many years ago
from Harbor Freight ??
they work great for rolling the generator
into / out of the truck, even used them
to roll one of my Insight Hondas onto a trailer.
Search: folding ramps
slip them together and even your grandma can get up there
question everything
That’s not a bad idea
Unless they are too heavy? But I like the slope of them. Maybe even Jaska could go up them?
Was Humpty Dumpty pushed?
the aluminum models are quite light
mine is a bi-fold, weighs maybe 10 pounds
but the tri-fold is longer, which gives a slighter
slope, so maybe 18 pounds?
question everything
That slope might work..
I'm gonna look into those.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Those are very cool
I like that they are lightweight and that they fold. No matter how light we think we are packing for road trips we are always just busting at the seams. We generally look like the Okies of the depression era, all we need is to hang pots and pans from the roof.
Thanks QMS!
We got a folding ramp...
from Chewy.com online. It folds, so it fits in the trunk or behind the truck seat. Unfortunately, for the truck it's too steep for my dog to use. She's just too old. But it's GREAT for the car. And we make her wait, so she doesn't jump, and go down the ramp to get out of the car too. It's made a huge difference, and she waits for us to put the ramp up for her to get into the car.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Waiting
Lol…
The things we do for them. When Abby was having strength issues I would park the car next to a cement wall that was the same height as the back seat and the ramp would be level so she could just walk across to the grass. If that spot was taken I’d find another place so she could get in and out easily. Someone walked up to me one day and said that they loved how I took care of my dawgs. I even got the people at the cemetery to help me with Abby.
I think you’re right that training them young is a good idea. It did take some time and effort to get them to use the ramp. But not the stairs. Sam used them as so as she learned to go up and down. Some times I walk by the bedroom and she is sitting on the top one. I just laugh…
Was Humpty Dumpty pushed?
We have a ramp for the car...
But going up in the truck, even with the ramp, is impossible. It is just too steep. I bought a ramp for our bed. Jaska will use it from time to time, but she loved the stairs we had. Unfortunately, she can't use those anymore. She falls off and hurts herself, so we had to remove them.
Your Dad was great! Building ramps and stairs is awesome. Never thought about doing it ourselves, now I am going to have to try! One thing we are going to do, when we get a new puppy/dog, is train it right away to use the ramps and stairs. That way, they don't have to learn as a middle aged, or old, dog. I think it will be easier.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Both you and snoopy
Oh yeah
When I go to Park City it’s my day to be alone with myself and I tell Sam that she is staying home and she seems to understand that and doesn’t get all excited like when she gets to come with me. Her ears go down, but she doesn’t sulk about it. And she still happily gets my shoes.
When I first asked her to get them out of the closet she jumped over her shoe that looked just like mine. I thought that was brilliant of her to understand the difference. And still every time I ask if she wants to get them she jumps straight up 3-4 times. Just a happy little dawg.
Yep life would be so boring without them.
Was Humpty Dumpty pushed?
Yet another example that dogs rock.
We humans would be so f*ed up without them.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Here is a good
vid from Scott Ritter, he lays it out.
And thanks for the OT! I read the one you wrote several weeks ago about Ritter's father-in-law. That was something. Thanks for that as well.
Yep...
It's a good video. I gotta agree with most of what he says. Thanks for posting the video here!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so