Open Thread - Thurs 14 Sep 2023: A Couple of Thoughts about 9/11

Submitted by Sima on Thu, 09/14/2023 - 5:00am

A Couple of Thoughts about 9/11

Enhydra Lutris' Post on Monday, 9/11, covered so much of history that happened on that day through the ages. I found the post very informative and learned a lot. It was great! And really showed how our own 9/11 isn't that important in the long run of history, even if it's important, in varying ways, to many of us who see it as a horrid attack, the loss of more of our freedom, a government manipulated spectacle and excuse, and more.

Yep - From: https://xenianwallpaper.blogspot.com/2020/12/9-11-political-cartoon-he-identified.html

I remember when the attack on the towers in New York and the Pentagon in Washington (and the plane that went down in PA) on 9/11 happened pretty vividly. My husband woke me up to tell me the horrible news; airplanes had hit buildings in New York and more. We still had a TV, just barely. I never watched it, hubby did at times. But we watched the TV for the next few days; watched the planes fly into the buildings; watched the people jump and fall; watched the buildings crumble, saw the plane crash site in PA, and so on. I think the first thing I thought about 10 minutes after being woken by my husband, after feeling so much for those who died so brutally or got hurt, was, 'Well, this really screws us all doesn't it? Now the powers that be, Bush and his cronies at the time, get all that they wish for. Us common people are screwed.' And so it was, and continues to be.

Matt Taibbi wrote a good piece about 9/11 and its political and social aftermath which says about everything I thought on the day and have thought in the years since. I had no idea how current events would happen, but I knew the TPTB would tell us to accept limits and spying and loss of privacy to protect our 'freedom'. And so, they did and have. Here's the link to the article: A Day that Never Ended. The article is pretty short, here's a bit that spoke to me (and will probably to you) a lot:

It’s forgotten, but Barack Obama was sent to the White House in what a lot of the voting public at the time considered a referendum on the security state. The genteel Obama played up “constitutional lawyer” credentials, announcing in a national security address at the Wilson Center in 2007 his opposition to the “color-coded politics of fear” and “a war in Iraq that should never have been authorized.” Candidate Obama added it was time to “turn the page” with more peaceful means of “drying up” support for terrorism, a strategy that hurtled him past favored Hillary Clinton in primary season. Privately however he’d already met with people like Richard Clarke, who told him, “As a president, you kill people.” This is who Obama would actually be in office, an “idealist without illusions” who expanded the buildup, institutionalized the “kill list,” and in one of his last major acts, created a new counter-disinformation authority that helped birth the censorship state.

I didn't forget it. I knew this would happen before Obama was elected. He was all about hope and dreams, with no intention, at all, of fulfilling any of them. One thing I learned from the Thatcher years, 'they', at least in England and America, will never let a woman, or a black, or any one different, be elected to high office unless that person is pretty much a complete, dyed in the wool, entrenched supporter and follower of the powers that be.

And since Obama? Nothing's really changed. Trump didn't change anything about the surveillance state, about the government's control of the people, about its removal of the people's rights. Biden certainly hasn't changed any of that. It's going to take a revolution to change things, perhaps, or at least, a Bonus Army and people in power that are forced, and willing, to listen.

Here's a link to a site which takes a deep dive about 9/11 (Understanding 9/11) . The horrific event was the subject of a college course. Who knew?

Note: This post doesn't talk about anything but a few of the after effects of 9/11. There's tons to be said about how it happened, who made it happen, who was involved, was it a conspiracy or not, if so who conspired and more. That discussion is for another day, I think.

So, thanks for reading and here's the open thread - and remember, everything is interesting if you dive deep enough, so tell us about where you're diving!

Tags:

Open Thread

#9/11

#Obama

#taibbi

Vote

Comments

Submitted by Sima on Thu, 09/14/2023 - 4:56am

Great Thor's Day Everyone!

Hope everyone is doing well! Growing stuff seems to be garnering the rewards of a good harvest, right, Studentofearth ? Earthling1? Everyone else? It has here too, we're harvesting leeks, potatoes, more beans, apples... yea. Lots of stuff. Gotta make some blackberry jam/jelly soon. Hubby picked bags and bags of the berries, because he loves that jam/jelly!

Some pretty good news: Jaska had her annual vet exam yesterday. She did really, really well. The vet was very pleased with her health, said there was nothing bad at all to report except for her old age teeth and her old age overweight. She's recovered very well from that infection last year that nearly took her out. She's gonna be 14 soon. That's old for her breed, but... she's soldiering on very well! I'm very happy as I listen to her snore

Hope everyone else has had some good news recently. Post about it, and whatever else!

—

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Submitted by Tall Bald and Ugly on Thu, 09/14/2023 - 9:45am

Good on Jaska!

Maybe check out @Sima the
Worlds Oldest Dawg
31 years old
in Portugal

diet, exercise and Love

hmmm, just like us

—

Ya got to be a Spirit, cain't be no Ghost. . .

Explain Bldg #7. . . still waiting. . .

If you’ve ever wondered whether you would have complied in 1930’s Germany,
Now you know. . .
sign at protest march

Submitted by Sima on Thu, 09/14/2023 - 11:24pm

World's Oldest Dawg...

@Tall Bald and Ugly
That article was fun! 31 years old! I told Jaska she's got something to aspire to now Strange thing is, she's had a life kinda like Bobi's, the 31 year old's. She only eats human food. She's been allowed to roam free over our small acreage, out in the fields at will, like Bobi did in the woods around his place. She's got almost no stress, and when she is stressed, like when people's voices are raised, she just leaves.

Thanks for the stuff about Bobi! Hope your day was good and your weekend is even better!

—

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Submitted by TheOtherMaven on Thu, 09/14/2023 - 9:03am

I noticed on a current calendar

the obscenity of referring to 9/11 as "Patriot Day". Just another tool of the State to whip its c/i/t/i/z/e/n/s/ subjects into a frenzy of mindless hysteria.

At the very least, you would think there would have been some objection from Massachusetts and/or Maine, which have had April 19 (or, lately, the closest Monday thereto) designated as "Patriots' Day" for almost 130 years. But...crickets....

—

There is no justice. There can be no peace.

Submitted by Sima on Thu, 09/14/2023 - 11:32pm

Patriot Day?

@TheOtherMaven
Sheez, that IS obscene. You are so correct. This is so true, so true: 'Just another tool of the State to whip its c/i/t/i/z/e/n/s/ subjects into a frenzy of mindless hysteria.' We are subjects, not citizens, anymore. I'd rather have Maine and MA Patriot Day in April, please.

—

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Submitted by snoopydawg on Thu, 09/14/2023 - 11:04am

The 'New Pearl Harbor' was very beneficial for the government

It gave itself powers that it was never meant to have and those powers were to be used against we the people.

Everyone should know what happened in Washington on September 14, 2001, even though there is an exhortation to remember the attacks which took place on September 11, 2001. On September 14 the Senate and the House of Representatives passed joint resolutions which resulted in the Authorization for Use of Military Force of 2001 (AUMF) , which President George W. Bush signed into law on September 18.

Just three days after September 11, when senators and members of congress should have been asking hard questions about what happened on that fateful date, they instead chose to give President Bush carte blanche to wage war whenever and wherever he chose. In so doing they gave the same permission to his successors and established a new doctrine that the U.S. not only can but should wage endless warfare around the world.

The so-called War on Terror , which was in fact a war of terror, began in full force after September 11. In the intervening years more than 4.5 million people have died as a result of US post-9/11 wars. 38 million more have been displaced as refugees in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, Libya, and the Philippines. No president is going to raise these inconvenient truths, nor will their errand boys and girls who toil on their behalf in corporate media and in the halls of congress.

The AUMF of 2001 was quickly followed by the Patriot Act which Congress also passed hastily on October 25, 2001. The Patriot Ac t rendered moot decades of legal precedent regarding surveillance of individuals. Under the Patriot Act, the FBI can issue National Security Letters without a judge’s approval, which give access to email, phone, and bank records. The Patriot Act also prohibits recipients of NSLs from revealing to anyone that they received them. So-called “sneak and peek” searches are allowed under the Patriot Act. A home or business can be searched, and the target doesn’t have to be notified until after the search takes place. Let’s not forget that an entire new agency, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), was formed in the wake of 9/11 and it encompasses everything from immigration laws to air travel.

It would appear that the terrorists won after all. The word democracy may be elevated to sacred status, but in 20 years congress has not managed to repeal the AUMF of 2001 or the Patriot Act. It appears that DHS is also here to stay.

Remembrance of September 11 should be elevated above flag waving, and maudlin sentiment expressed by the same politicians who make wars and increase control over our lives. This columnist suggests that the dates September 14 and October 25 be added to the pantheon of solemn commemorations.

The Bill of Rights gave the power of the government to we the people, but over the years and especially after 9/11 the government confiscated our power and with very little protest. I thought that once people were treated as criminals just so they could fly there would have been a big outcry against it. But sadly too many people just wanted to feel safe. Imagine instead of just complying people boycotted flying until the TSA was dismantled.

Same with illegal spying. "I got nothing to hide so why should I care?.

"Those who give up liberty for safety receive neither."

—

Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Thu, 09/14/2023 - 11:10am

PCR adds more

@snoopydawg

Was There A “War On Terror” Or A War On The American People? (PCR)

In response to 9/11, Republican Attorney General John Ashcroft told an obedient Congress on a Wednesday to have a sweeping expansion of executive power and dramatic curtailment of American’s civil rights ready in bill form by the end of the week. As Matt Taibbi reminds us, “Congress quickly delivered with ‘roving’ wiretaps, warrantless searches, ‘trap and trace’ searches, law enforcement and intelligence access to grand jury information, use of FISA monitoring for non-foreign situations, reduction or elimination of predicate requirements for FBI investigations, and elimination of judicial review for most of these activities, among many other things in the USA PATRIOT Act. It all passed on October 26th.”

These measures had nothing whatsoever to do with fighting Muslim terror. To the contrary, these measures gave the government the power to terrorize Americans. Try to name Muslim terror attacks on America other than, if you believe the official narrative, 9/11. You can’t, because there aren’t any. Terror attacks on America were so non-existent that the FBI had to search for confused people and groups, convince them, enhanced with monetary bribes, to adopt a FBI prepared terror attack, and then arrest them before the attack could be attempted. The FBI always explained that “the public was never in danger” as control of the operation was in FBI’s hands. But the public is very much in danger from the police state measures that Taibbi lists. “Muslim terror” was so conspicuous by its absence that Homeland Security Director Janet Napolitano announced that Homeland Security was being refocused on domestic American “extremists,” which has come to mean Trump supporters against whom the US government is deploying the police state measures.

The first part of the “war on terror” was against Americans’ civil liberties. The second part of the war was on Israel’s opponents in the Middle East. In the case of Iraq and Libya entire countries were destroyed, millions killed and maimed, and displaced to Europe and the US with the strange result of importing Muslims who were said to be terrorists into the Homeland. Ask yourself how Americans managed to fall for the propaganda that the US was under widespread attack from Muslims. The “Muslim threat” was played to such an extent that the Attorney General said, “we need every tool available to us,” by which he meant getting rid of the US Constitution.

The foundation of the American police state was established on the basis of only one attack, 9/11, falsely attributed to Muslims. If the Muslims were really capable of outwitting the entirety of the US national security apparatus, why did they stop with the WTC? With such glorious success, why did they not continue? Why instead did the FBI have to create fake terror events in order to keep the public believing we were under attack? Notice how we are always “under attack.” If it is not Muslims, it is Covid, or Donald Trump.

And we recently found out that 2 of the Muslim hijackers were working for the CIA. Imagine that. But instead of stopping the crime just in time like they did all the others that followed they let them succeed. Or did they? Weird how an aluminum plane can crash through steel girders…

See the pictures I posted in Tuesday’s OT thread and the videos. FYI: Joe Biden wrote the patriot act in 1995 just waiting for a reason to get it implemented.

.

It gave itself powers that it was never meant to have and those powers were to be used against we the people.

Everyone should know what happened in Washington on September 14, 2001, even though there is an exhortation to remember the attacks which took place on September 11, 2001. On September 14 the Senate and the House of Representatives passed joint resolutions which resulted in the Authorization for Use of Military Force of 2001 (AUMF) , which President George W. Bush signed into law on September 18.

Just three days after September 11, when senators and members of congress should have been asking hard questions about what happened on that fateful date, they instead chose to give President Bush carte blanche to wage war whenever and wherever he chose. In so doing they gave the same permission to his successors and established a new doctrine that the U.S. not only can but should wage endless warfare around the world.

The so-called War on Terror , which was in fact a war of terror, began in full force after September 11. In the intervening years more than 4.5 million people have died as a result of US post-9/11 wars. 38 million more have been displaced as refugees in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, Libya, and the Philippines. No president is going to raise these inconvenient truths, nor will their errand boys and girls who toil on their behalf in corporate media and in the halls of congress.

The AUMF of 2001 was quickly followed by the Patriot Act which Congress also passed hastily on October 25, 2001. The Patriot Ac t rendered moot decades of legal precedent regarding surveillance of individuals. Under the Patriot Act, the FBI can issue National Security Letters without a judge’s approval, which give access to email, phone, and bank records. The Patriot Act also prohibits recipients of NSLs from revealing to anyone that they received them. So-called “sneak and peek” searches are allowed under the Patriot Act. A home or business can be searched, and the target doesn’t have to be notified until after the search takes place. Let’s not forget that an entire new agency, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), was formed in the wake of 9/11 and it encompasses everything from immigration laws to air travel.

It would appear that the terrorists won after all. The word democracy may be elevated to sacred status, but in 20 years congress has not managed to repeal the AUMF of 2001 or the Patriot Act. It appears that DHS is also here to stay.

Remembrance of September 11 should be elevated above flag waving, and maudlin sentiment expressed by the same politicians who make wars and increase control over our lives. This columnist suggests that the dates September 14 and October 25 be added to the pantheon of solemn commemorations.

The Bill of Rights gave the power of the government to we the people, but over the years and especially after 9/11 the government confiscated our power and with very little protest. I thought that once people were treated as criminals just so they could fly there would have been a big outcry against it. But sadly too many people just wanted to feel safe. Imagine instead of just complying people boycotted flying until the TSA was dismantled.

Same with illegal spying. "I got nothing to hide so why should I care?.

"Those who give up liberty for safety receive neither."

—

Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

Submitted by Sima on Thu, 09/14/2023 - 11:52pm

PCR is right!

@snoopydawg @snoopydawg
The FBI had to find confused and muddled groups, and people, to encourage them to 'attack' america. Some poor guy, a kid at the time, in Portland OR is in jail because of the FBI egging him on. It's awful!

Ohh and your pics in the Tuesday thread... very interesting. I dunno what to believe. I do think our government knew about it before it happened, one way or another.

#3 Was There A “War On Terror” Or A War On The American People? (PCR) In response to 9/11, Republican Attorney General John Ashcroft told an obedient Congress on a Wednesday to have a sweeping expansion of executive power and dramatic curtailment of American’s civil rights ready in bill form by the end of the week. As Matt Taibbi reminds us, “Congress quickly delivered with ‘roving’ wiretaps, warrantless searches, ‘trap and trace’ searches, law enforcement and intelligence access to grand jury information, use of FISA monitoring for non-foreign situations, reduction or elimination of predicate requirements for FBI investigations, and elimination of judicial review for most of these activities, among many other things in the USA PATRIOT Act. It all passed on October 26th.” These measures had nothing whatsoever to do with fighting Muslim terror. To the contrary, these measures gave the government the power to terrorize Americans. Try to name Muslim terror attacks on America other than, if you believe the official narrative, 9/11. You can’t, because there aren’t any. Terror attacks on America were so non-existent that the FBI had to search for confused people and groups, convince them, enhanced with monetary bribes, to adopt a FBI prepared terror attack, and then arrest them before the attack could be attempted. The FBI always explained that “the public was never in danger” as control of the operation was in FBI’s hands. But the public is very much in danger from the police state measures that Taibbi lists. “Muslim terror” was so conspicuous by its absence that Homeland Security Director Janet Napolitano announced that Homeland Security was being refocused on domestic American “extremists,” which has come to mean Trump supporters against whom the US government is deploying the police state measures. The first part of the “war on terror” was against Americans’ civil liberties. The second part of the war was on Israel’s opponents in the Middle East. In the case of Iraq and Libya entire countries were destroyed, millions killed and maimed, and displaced to Europe and the US with the strange result of importing Muslims who were said to be terrorists into the Homeland. Ask yourself how Americans managed to fall for the propaganda that the US was under widespread attack from Muslims. The “Muslim threat” was played to such an extent that the Attorney General said, “we need every tool available to us,” by which he meant getting rid of the US Constitution. The foundation of the American police state was established on the basis of only one attack, 9/11, falsely attributed to Muslims. If the Muslims were really capable of outwitting the entirety of the US national security apparatus, why did they stop with the WTC? With such glorious success, why did they not continue? Why instead did the FBI have to create fake terror events in order to keep the public believing we were under attack? Notice how we are always “under attack.” If it is not Muslims, it is Covid, or Donald Trump. And we recently found out that 2 of the Muslim hijackers were working for the CIA. Imagine that. But instead of stopping the crime just in time like they did all the others that followed they let them succeed. Or did they? Weird how an aluminum plane can crash through steel girders… See the pictures I posted in Tuesday’s OT thread and the videos. FYI: Joe Biden wrote the patriot act in 1995 just waiting for a reason to get it implemented.

—

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Submitted by Sima on Thu, 09/14/2023 - 11:48pm

Heh, this was very good to know...

@snoopydawg @snoopydawg
I hadn't thought about what Congress did after, at least not in concrete terms. I'm gonna start calling September 14th, today, 'Loss of Freedom Day'. No, let's make that 'National Loss of Freedom Day'. Yea. What should we do to commemorate it? Maybe march with the flag upside down? Annually look for other countries to live in? Heh.

There, I put it down in my calendar - repeats yearly, forever (or until stuff changes!). I might add Oct 25th too, like the columnist suggests.

I protested so hard against that damned Iraq war. Stood on the corner with others, every day, waving signs and talking to the people driving by. I'd say about 95% agree with us, if honking, waving, and thumbs up mean anything like that. We marched, we wrote our congress members and others, we did all the things we were 'supposed' to do to protest, just like so many others around the world. And nothing happened. My congress critter at the time, Inslee, came and gave us a talk. He agreed with us. He fought to have parts of the Patriot Act removed. But, so what? Nothing came of all the protests and his agreement didn't go very far.

.

It gave itself powers that it was never meant to have and those powers were to be used against we the people.

Everyone should know what happened in Washington on September 14, 2001, even though there is an exhortation to remember the attacks which took place on September 11, 2001. On September 14 the Senate and the House of Representatives passed joint resolutions which resulted in the Authorization for Use of Military Force of 2001 (AUMF) , which President George W. Bush signed into law on September 18.

Just three days after September 11, when senators and members of congress should have been asking hard questions about what happened on that fateful date, they instead chose to give President Bush carte blanche to wage war whenever and wherever he chose. In so doing they gave the same permission to his successors and established a new doctrine that the U.S. not only can but should wage endless warfare around the world.

The so-called War on Terror , which was in fact a war of terror, began in full force after September 11. In the intervening years more than 4.5 million people have died as a result of US post-9/11 wars. 38 million more have been displaced as refugees in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, Libya, and the Philippines. No president is going to raise these inconvenient truths, nor will their errand boys and girls who toil on their behalf in corporate media and in the halls of congress.

The AUMF of 2001 was quickly followed by the Patriot Act which Congress also passed hastily on October 25, 2001. The Patriot Ac t rendered moot decades of legal precedent regarding surveillance of individuals. Under the Patriot Act, the FBI can issue National Security Letters without a judge’s approval, which give access to email, phone, and bank records. The Patriot Act also prohibits recipients of NSLs from revealing to anyone that they received them. So-called “sneak and peek” searches are allowed under the Patriot Act. A home or business can be searched, and the target doesn’t have to be notified until after the search takes place. Let’s not forget that an entire new agency, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), was formed in the wake of 9/11 and it encompasses everything from immigration laws to air travel.

It would appear that the terrorists won after all. The word democracy may be elevated to sacred status, but in 20 years congress has not managed to repeal the AUMF of 2001 or the Patriot Act. It appears that DHS is also here to stay.

Remembrance of September 11 should be elevated above flag waving, and maudlin sentiment expressed by the same politicians who make wars and increase control over our lives. This columnist suggests that the dates September 14 and October 25 be added to the pantheon of solemn commemorations.

The Bill of Rights gave the power of the government to we the people, but over the years and especially after 9/11 the government confiscated our power and with very little protest. I thought that once people were treated as criminals just so they could fly there would have been a big outcry against it. But sadly too many people just wanted to feel safe. Imagine instead of just complying people boycotted flying until the TSA was dismantled.

Same with illegal spying. "I got nothing to hide so why should I care?.

"Those who give up liberty for safety receive neither."

—

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Submitted by snoopydawg on Thu, 09/14/2023 - 11:31am

Speaking of the government taking our rights

This case is a doozy and it goes back to Obama’s Kill List Tuesday.

What This Court Case Really Signified — Do We Have the Right to Exist?

One has come to expect a brutal disregard for human rights and lack of justice in war-torn countries. The fact that the “leader of the free world” has tacitly evidenced a similar disregard for the very existence of its citizens should have been front page news across America.

This journalist continues to daily receive contacts from US citizens outraged by court decisions which fly in the face of legal and constitutional rights. Some of these decisions result in loss of assets and some result in loss of life. In the hopes of clarifying the fundamental relationship between citizen and government, not as regards some far away country or some foreign individual without any standing or rights in the US, this report has revisited the Kareem case.

So fundamentally, we have no rights. Any questions?

Excerpt taken from end of article.

—

Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

Submitted by Sima on Fri, 09/15/2023 - 12:03am

That article was very good

@snoopydawg
very informative and... I knew that the government keeps documents secret, but didn't realize how much the courts support that. Bleh.

—

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Submitted by snoopydawg on Fri, 09/15/2023 - 12:50pm

Obama also killed 2 other Americans

@Sima

The al Awalki dad and for good measure his son and I think a nephew in Syria and then Trump killed the daughter in Yemen. I’m sure I butchered the name.

I don’t understand why people here didn’t have a problem with his kill list Tuesday where he decided who should die next. And he also bombed the Doctors Without Borders hospital in Afghanistan because he thought terrorists were getting treatment there.

He also rescinded habeas corpus and nary a peep about it. But yeah for the courts not to protect Americans from their government proves the adage: Why expect one government agency to protect you from another government agency?

—

Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

Submitted by enhydra lutris on Thu, 09/14/2023 - 11:36am

Good morning Sima, thanks for the nice words.

There is disputation as to whether or not the Reichstag fire was a false flag of sorts, but none whatsoever as to how it was used to further NAZI control of Germany, destroy civil rights therein and more.

It is said that "history does not repeat, but it rhymes" and 9/11/2001 is a perfect exemplar of that, not exactly the same, but generally highly similar. The oligarchs and fascisti took the ball and ran with it and are running still.

Here, btw, I use the classic understanding of "fascist". FDR distilled it as

ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power.

, whereas Benito Mussolini is alleged to have formulated it as the identity or merger of corporate and governmental interests. Apologists and deniers for the equivalence with the US form of rule note that Mussolini's "corporates" were not the same as US corporations, but a close look at what they were is also a rhyme, and one where, seemingly, Italy's corporates of the day were a bit more broad based and egalitarian than our corporations due to the voice given to labor in many/most of those corporates.

One of Hitler's goals for the NAZI party and German state, elucidated in the Reichstag fire law(s) was the elimination of communism and the communists. Here that has been a goal since well before Hitler's rise and has been broadened to include states not technically communist, but insufficiently similar and sycophantic to our corporationist oligarchy. Hence, our 911 laws are broader than the Reichstag fire laws.

be well and have a good one

—

That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Submitted by Cassiodorus on Thu, 09/14/2023 - 1:22pm

I'm in favor of abandoning "fascism" as a term of current use.

@enhydra lutris Much of what gave Fascism (and the other authoritarianisms like it in the period between the World Wars) its flavor was its complete disdain for democracy and nostalgia for old-fashioned absolute monarchy, in which you had a King who had absolute power over everything in his realm. Thus Hitler was appointed by old and sick von Hindenburg while being coerced by von Papen, both of whom wanted the old Prussian monarchy back. And thus Mussolini was uninterested in even the trappings of democracy. Nowadays everyone pretends to be democratic, even if only in a trivial sense (e.g. the Chinese). I don't think this is a trivial distinction.

And, as regards the government-corporate alliances of "fascism," such alliances have existed in historical time far beyond anything we could legitimately call "fascism." Are we to call 18th-century Britain, significantly an arm of the East India Company, a "fascist" country? It makes no sense.

There is, of course, always "authoritarianism" as a term of derision.

—

"the Democratic Party is not 'left'." -- Sabrina Salvati

Submitted by enhydra lutris on Thu, 09/14/2023 - 3:23pm

Point(s) taken; though, as I recall, pains were

@Cassiodorus

taken back at the beginning of this country to ensure that real democracy could never occur, most of the powers that were being definitely afraid of it.

be well and have a good one

—

That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Submitted by Sima on Fri, 09/15/2023 - 12:05am

This is a nice little dip into history

@enhydra lutris
and how it might not repeat, but rhymes. I never thought about 9/11 in terms of the Reichstag fire, but that makes perfect sense. Sobering, so sobering.

—

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Submitted by humphrey on Thu, 09/14/2023 - 11:43am

Nancy Pelosi attempts to stick up for Kamala. Was it effective?

Pelosi says what we’ve been think for a while … Kamala is not doing much. pic.twitter.com/bF3oI1iX1K

— Lord Bebo (@MyLordBebo) September 14, 2023

Submitted by Sima on Fri, 09/15/2023 - 12:10am

No, not effective...

@humphrey
Old b&tch sticking up, I guess, for young b&tch. Sorry for the swearing, watching Pelosi always makes the hair on the back of my neck rise. Always, even when I was much too young to vote and lived in her district/area!

—

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Submitted by usefewersyllables on Thu, 09/14/2023 - 12:23pm

Gonna be a

wet night in Denver, apparently. WUnderground is calling for 1.5" of rain overnight tonight- and we're already at 17.69" for the year (against our average of 14.48").

I'm glad that our apartment is located upon (somewhat) high ground. It'll be interesting to see what happens (if anything, of course- the forecast is no more reliable here than it is anywhere else)...

9/11 marked the death of sanity. There's not very much more to say about it than that.

—

Twice bitten, permanently shy.

Submitted by Sima on Fri, 09/15/2023 - 12:13am

Hope it's not as wet as predicted!

@usefewersyllables
Here, it is drier than normal. Grass has not greened up yet, but it's trying as we get a little drizzle every week or so. Nights are getting cold though.

Your comment here: '9/11 marked the death of sanity. There's not very much more to say about it than that.' Sums up everything very nicely.

Keep dry if you can!

—

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Submitted by humphrey on Thu, 09/14/2023 - 12:59pm

But! But! She is a good democrat. That is all that matters.

Penny Pritzker was on the board of Superior Bank, which her tax evading family bought with $645 billion in govt credits. It collapsed after a subprime scandal, costing 1400+ uninsured depositors their savings and forcing her to withdraw her 2008 nomination.

Slava Wall Street! https://t.co/WvaWwb9EIp

— Max Blumenthal (@MaxBlumenthal) September 14, 2023

Submitted by snoopydawg on Thu, 09/14/2023 - 2:28pm

Pritzers are just another family of grifters

@humphrey

who have gotten rich with the government’s help.

A Company Family: The Untold History of Obama and the CIA” [Covert Action Magazine (jsn)]. Re-upping this from Links of August 31; one stop shopping for Obama’s spook connections, and they are numerous. But see also the final paragraph on the Pritzkers, the oligarchs in the other Democrat state. “Penny Pritzker of the Pritzker banking dynasty—ranked number 9 on the Forbes list with a fortune of $32.5 billion—gave $500,000 to Obama’s second inauguration—earning her appointment as Obama’s Secretary of Commerce. The Pritzker family—which made its fortune through ownership of Hyatt hotels—had long ties to the CIA. They were leading depositors in the Bahamas-based Castle Bank, a CIA outfit founded by one of the CIA’s mob liaisons, Paul Helliwell, which specialized in off-shoring money.[27] The Pritzkers were also war profiteers. In 1953, family patriarchs Jay and Robert Pritzker founded the Marmon Group, an industrial holding company which includes the subsidiary Marmon Aerospace and Defense which manufactures wires and cables for aerospace, military vehicles, combat systems, radar installations and naval shipboards. The Pritzkers—like the Crowns—thus personally profited from Obama’s mammoth military budgets, which outstripped those of President Bush by an average of $18.7 billion per year, Obama’s naval buildup in the South China Sea and his overseeing more sales of military weaponry than any other president—$60 billion more than President Bush.[28]” • Meanwhile, I am persuaded, J. B. Pritzker waits for Biden to slip a cog….

I have posted this article a few times but have not gotten any feedback from it. It’s quite the eye opener on who Obama has always been and it’s unfortunate that it didn’t come out before he got to be betrayer in chief. Huge family ties to the CIA.

—

Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

Submitted by Sima on Fri, 09/15/2023 - 12:15am

Ick, she's ick.

@humphrey
And... she's just ick. Can our government stop with the ick people?

'Slava Wall Street!' Max has come up with a new slogan for us all!

—

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Submitted by humphrey on Thu, 09/14/2023 - 2:32pm

This has to sting. LOL

Hong Kong reporter starts asking Maduro a question in English

Maduro: "Speak Mandarin, there's no English interpreter - it's a new world!" pic.twitter.com/BDZ5lQygTv

— COMBATE | (@upholdreality) September 14, 2023

Submitted by Lookout on Thu, 09/14/2023 - 3:03pm

Good afternoon...

We're still getting a few tomatoes...just enough to feed us on the regular. Too many peppers, so giving them away since we put up so many last year. Beautiful red and green peppers. Got the last of the cabbage just as the weather is suited to plant more. So on it goes...

As to 9/11, we were played IMO....a power grab to my mind. A war of terror on us all has been the result. Makes obvious the role of deep state in the manipulation of America....but just another step in the long progression since the CIA was created and allied with the FBI and now, NSA, etc. It is what it is.

I'm happy to just hold up back in the holler and let it roll. I wish I could stop it, but just ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

Thanks for the OT!

—

“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

Submitted by Sima on Fri, 09/15/2023 - 12:21am

Afternoon!

@Lookout
Our pepper plants are getting aphids. It's getting a bit too cold at night for the frogs who control all the aphids otherwise. The frogs are thinking about hibernation or something. The lady bugs are about finished for the year too. So we're left with predatory wasps and such. Ohh, and safer soap.

Gonna plant next year's garlic this or next week. And I need to get some lettuce started. Maybe some overwintering cabbage too. Are you doing that?

I agree, we can't stop what's happening with 9/11, the 'war on terror' and so on, so just let it roll until we can do something.

—

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Submitted by on the cusp on Thu, 09/14/2023 - 11:31pm

Sima, great OT!

Long day, lots going on, but I did read it and the comments, gave it much thought.
The US was one thing, then after 9/11, another thing. And Biden wrote the Patriot Act. Or should I say, Brandon?
That event is destroying lives and our way of life ever since.
So happy for Jaska!

—

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Submitted by Sima on Fri, 09/15/2023 - 12:25am

Hope the long day was fruitful!

@on the cusp

Here, my big tasks of the day were making a ton of chili from our freshly grown peppers, tomatoes, garlic, onions, etc. And feeding the tomato, pepper and basil plants. And watering the same. And feeding the goats. And working on website creation. Not a lot, but at least I did it .

Biden writing the patriot act just.. well, I'm not surprised and it totally fits.

Jaska sends a few barks, lots of tail wags and a lick or two! Ohh and a sidling up and pressing on your legs to get pets!

—

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Submitted by on the cusp on Fri, 09/15/2023 - 12:37am

I felt Jaska

@Sima Hope she felt me

—

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Submitted by Creosote. on Sat, 09/16/2023 - 7:13pm

Coming soon

It was from this site, as I recall, that I learned that Biden basically wrote or specifically adjusted the legislation that resulted (was intended to result) in the crash of 2008. He still seems skilled in that area.
Offsite, including my relatives, I've found no one who knows much less cares anything about our time or history and workings or the actual state of things. One with five jabs says they now feel "bulletproof."
Meanwhile, most weekdays I get two or three phonecalls; people ask if I'd like to sell my property. No. The location, near the railroad and in 1978 a workingman's neighborhood, is going upscale fast; and now the city seems to have just changed building regs to permit single-family properties to have two "homes" because something must be done to provide for all the people who want to live here. I'm thinking that there's something to be said about old age.