Open Thread - Thurs 03 Aug 2023 - USA In Decline
USA In Decline
Recently I read an article on Consortium News by Michael Brenner, Professor Emeritus at the University of Pittsburgh. The article, 'The New 'New World'' (with this subheading: 'What happens when reality hits delusion? U.S. mythology and fantasy will remain resilient. Denial, doubling-down, scapegoating, recrimination and more audacious adventures are the instinctive responses') is very good, and made me really think.
I've been wrestling with posting this article, because of a couple reasons: 1. It's depressing and scary 2. It's way too damned long and repeats itself, but then, the writer's a professor, so, of course, it is and, of course, it does. 3. I agree with his points in the article, but I don't agree with them as well, at least as they pertain to me and those closest to me and, I think, as they pertain to most of the people on Caucus99% too. On the other hand, the writer, Brenner, is insightful and argues his points well. I wanna know what you think about the article, so here's the beginning of it:
Americans discount the past. They live in the present and imagine the future. Events are assimilated into a mythologized pageant of progress that leads to an ever fuller realization of a more perfect union — liberty and justice at home, goodwill and good works abroad.
My thoughts: Like I said above I agree but then I don't agree. I'm an American who does not discount the past and has learned from it. In fact, I think I often live more in the past than in the present. As for imaging the future... how gloomy. Is there constant progress towards a more perfect union? I don't know. Certainly not in the 'goodwill and good works abroad' category, at least politically and powerfully. Maybe there's constant progress on the home front, maybe not.
More of Brenner's beginning:
Happenings of an unseemly nature are sanitized so as to conform to the self-image of destiny’s child born in a state of original virtue; or they are encapsulated and repressed.
Deep within us, though, they survive in a state of indeterminant hibernation — along with the passions, impulses and ambitions that generated those misdeeds. They become spores, dormant until a favorable environment appears for their reactivation.
What we are witnessing in the United States today is a recrudescence of baneful elements from earlier times: the rapacious society that ruthlessly decimated the indigenous peoples from sea to shining sea; that warred against Mexico to steal half of its lands; that attacked Spain’s overseas possessions to build the early foundation of empire; that policed the Caribbean basin to its commercial advantage; that jailed those who voiced disagreement with the U.S.’ entry into World War I; that has glorified the frontier’s violence, sharp-dealing and wanton destruction of nature denied its status as an heirloom.
Certainly, those unbecoming episodes from the past resonate with what we observe today: in the United States’ rampage through the Middle East, its resort to systemic torture, its belligerence and bullying, its repressive treatment of critics at home, its crude and corrupt electoral politics.
These deeds are at variance with the country’s principles, its self-image, its external image and, too, a 20th century record that included policies and attitudes that aimed at generating public goods and attentive to the general welfare.
Moreover, our largely capable leaders who possessed an ingrained sense of responsibility for the good of the commonweal contrast sharply with our present crop of inept and feckless leaders with whom the nation is saddled.
We now are experiencing a clash between those latter virtues and the revival of those malign, demonic elements wresting free of their sublimation.
Brenner discusses 4 interwoven facets of modern society: plutocracy - rule by the financial sector, neo-fascism's rise, the 'erosion of fidelity to core Constitutional values', and timidity to defend those values resulting in nihilism and narcissism, especially amongst our 'leaders'.
What do you think? Will we, America and Americans as a whole, find a way out of this? This happened in the early-mid 1930's (when there was a dire economic crisis and war - so elites HAD to give in a little) until the late 1970's or so. Can we get back to that?
America isn't the only country going through this. I think much of the world is. Another article from Consortium News, by Craig Murray, discusses the end of democracy in Britain. It's called 'Democracy's Demise: What we had from roughly 1920 to 1990, when voting really could make a difference, is not what we have now. We live instead in a post-democratic society.'
On the other hand, we have been here before. All societies cycle through these changes, moving from bad to ok to good to bad to ok to good and so on, forever. Sometimes bad means the society is destroyed and the people form something else, other times it means the society is triumphant and spreads itself into other areas and other societies.
Here's a great video for a song by Pink Floyd, from 1987, 'On the Turning Away', about moving into the dark from the light. Sounds like it was written yesterday, doesn't it?
So, thanks for reading. Tell me what you think, if you have any thoughts on this topic and here's the open thread. Remember, everything is interesting if you dive deep enough, so tell us about where you're diving, whether it's about this topic or not!
Comments
Happy Day!
Here we are, starting August. Who'd have thunk? Gonna be Autumn soon!
There's all kinds of festivals (like Seafair) around here right now. The tourist numbers are up, the traffic sucks, staying at home and enjoying the hot dry days seems to be the best option. I harvested our Walla Walla onions a few days ago. Beans are doing beanie things, and mesclun is mesclunating. Tomatoes and peppers are ripening or already ripe in the greenhouse. The basil, oregano, dill, and more are growing like mad. So, eating is good! There's tons of blackberries on the brambles, I won't cut them off until we harvest them. And the first of them are starting to turn from green to purple/black. Ohh and the first of the apples are starting to turn a wee bit pinkish, ripening soon??
Let's all aspire to do things like this when we are 'really' old: This 93-year-old went to all 63 US national parks. Me and my husband are thinking about something similar, but visiting national parks in other countries.
Hope things are well. Let us know what's up, what you are learning lately and all that!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Hey, good morning
Have witnessed the steady decline of US conditions for the past 50 years.
Think you are correct in that this is caused by corporate greed
and govt. indifference.
Glad to hear you are harvesting. We have the bush green beans, tomatoes,
green peppers, eggplants and red onions on the plate as well.
Thanks for the OT Sima.
question everything
Sounds like your harvest is going well!
Good!
Corporate greed and government indifference: Yep, that is a big part of the decline. How can it be stopped? Not sure it can be.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Hey Sima
Simplicious has a piece up labeled Dissapative People that touches on the same themes as Brenner, only on a more personal level for individual Americans.
Reading his thoughts kept bringing to mind "comfortably numb" lyrics from Pink Floyd.
It too was uncomfortably long , but packed with fascinating insights.
In my view, most Americans are swirling down into the black hole of NPC existence and so devoid of critical thought as to render them not much different than farm animals.
Harvesting spuds, broccoli, and zucchini. The decade old Anasazi beans have grown into a 6'x 20' wall of thick green, overshading my tomatoes. Whodda thunk?
Also have pole and bush beans that we have been enjoying for weeks now.
Thanks for the Brenner piece, will finish it later.
Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.
Here’s the link for anyone interested in it
The Dissipative People
I haven’t read it yet. He does pack a lot of words in his essays so you get your money’s worth. I think it’s one subscription for both sites.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt
Unlocked
I read The Dissipative People a few days ago. It's not behind a pay wall, or at least I've not paid to read it.
Right
I read his work for free. Am considering a subscription though.
Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.
I don’t think he puts his work behind paywalls
He does limit who can ask questions that he responds to in a big essay and only paid subscribers can ask. But he often answers questions in his regular sitreps. He just ran a special for 20% off subscriptions.
Ahh I see my words were misleading. I just meant that he puts a ton of effort in his essays. I didn’t mean to imply that he posts a lot of essays behind paywalls. He said that he puts in 8 hour days and that most of his time is spent looking up information. It doesn’t take him too long to write it up.
Paywalls..ugh. I like how Alex Berenson does his. If he paywalls an essay he unlocks it in 72 hours. I wish more did that.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt
Smart move
That strikes me as a pretty good idea. Make a few bucks, but get your ideas out there.
Thanks for the link!
Gonna read this tonight. Thanks!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Go Beans!
They sound so good! Our tomatoes, in the greenhouse grew to be about 8 or 10 feet tall and then collapsed, sorta. They are still growing, but it's a tangled trap of tomatoes - see what I did there? - all making fruit and doing well. Haven't harvested spuds yet but will so! All our garlic is harvested, so that's going well.
I'm gonna read that article by Simplicius tonight. Thanks for letting me know about it! I really agree with what you said here, 'In my view, most Americans are swirling down into the black hole of NPC existence and so devoid of critical thought as to render them not much different than farm animals.' How sad, and yet, how true. I wonder, maybe it is how most people are, throughout history (and pre-history)?
Anyway, thanks for stopping by and your great comment!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Hi all,
Hi all, Hey Sima, Hope it's all good!
Don't have time to read and comment on your post but... it fired a dusty neuron off...
I used to listen to Michael Brenner on the radio in L.A. on Sunday mornings in the 90's he had a talk show. When I was city 'urban' birding at my local parks, that is what was on the radio. I read him off and on still. He was often thought provoking in a good way, and I enjoyed his radio show. One thing he said always stuck with me. I thought it was great. To paraphrase...
The problem with either or thinking is that it eliminates
the possibilities of neither and both.
gotta fly...
have good days all!
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better.
both - Albert Einstein
Nice memory of Brenner
And that thought of his is spot on. Good quote to remember!
Also, birding in the parks sounds great. I bet it was fun!
Hope your day was great!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Hola Sima - I beg to differ a tad, principles? Fahgedit!
The principles are part of the self image and part of the mythology and largely mythological. "We hold these principles blah, blah, blah". "
Allsome MEN (literally)are equal(LY to be judged based on their station). It was, ab initio designed as an oligarchy of the privileged; free, unindentured, white males with property. They alone had the franchise in any meaningful form. They had mandates and grants from god and royalty to seize and settle, and, after the revolution, to also rule. The myth of exceptionalism, not openly expressed, was ever with us.The idea that some of the ruling castes, sometimes acted for the good of the people is really pretty thin. Here and there charitable souls set up soup kitchens and such, but consider that from day one the elite were wary and fearful tht the masses would gain enough authority and control to redistribute their wealth and property more equitably and set in place structures to prevent that. They, at all levels, did their damnedest to suppress unions, socialists and communists, the grange, and a wealth of others who did have the interests of the hoi polloi at heart. FDR acted perhaps partly out of lesse majesty, but also partly out of fear of an uprising. Perhaps LBJ had a soul, but he saw threats to his power too. Carter was not above the siren song of the CIA. And those are the exceptions. Nixon, Reagan, Bush & Bush, Clinton, Trump, Obummer, non of these had the wellbeing of the hoi polloi as a major goal.
be well and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
I agree with every point you raised
I too think FDR acted out of fear, at least, he warned the other richie-richs that if they didn't give up some power, and help out the multitude of Americans, there would be an uprising that would take those richie-richs down.
And since Nixon, including Carter, the presidents we've had have been... bleh, at best. But then, they are just figure-heads and mouthpieces, aren't they?
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Al Capone also put up Soup Kitchens. Birds of a feather...?
So, I am so curious what will happen with Trump
late night appearing in Court (?) in DC (late night my local German time; i think).
OMG, may be he will be - sent to hell? I doubt it. What do you think?
Life is so difficult to understand these days. I give up.
Have a good day or night, wherever you are. Be well and be kind.
Peace and love, eyo would say.
https://www.euronews.com/live
Sent to Hell? Trump?
But then his usefulness as the 'opposition' for all the centrists in government will be gone. They can't do that!
I really dislike Trump, I have for a long time, since way before he was president. On the other hand, he's being used, and willingly being used, as the 'other'. Just like he did through his whole tv 'career'.
So, I hope things are well with you, Mimi!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Opinions/reaction based on skimming your essay
Fatalism is worse than worthless; it is unrealistic AND entirely self-sabotaging. I hate that so much of academia enables this.
REALITY IN POLITICS IS MADE BY FIAT. This is part of why people who think themselves "smart" keep losing embarrassingly to others whom they habitually look down on. The "scientific" approach to politics as set off by Adam Smith and Karl Marx has proven itself nothing short of a nightmarish global scourge. The relatively-informal, "homespun" approach of the 18th-Century thinkers and doers was far more effective.
American values may be "mythological", but I am frankly sick of the disparagement of mythology (another pseudointellectual hobby-horse). Many of us here today have negligible-to-no ancestral connection to the soap-operas of the 19th-Century ("Blacks" and "Whites" need to recognize that they are both Southerners, and share common cultural pathologies - likewise, "North" and "South" need to recognize that they are both Easterners, we out west of Tornado Alley are not just your Mini-Mes - if they get to play the nationalism game, so does everyone else!). OUR America got its start sometime shortly after WWI, when people came here with naive visions of the American Dream - and something remarkable happened as a result: WE WERE ABLE TO MAKE IT REAL. People who carry on about national original sin, in addition to thinking in the Nazi mold by doing so (so what if they swap out the Thalia-mask for a Melpomene-mask?!?), are sabotaging this miracle and ONLY harming the good and innocent. Let 'Caucus 1932' lead.
- Lao Tzu
I am sick of depression and despair. It is our enemy's weapon against us. It is the mendacious logic that was known in 2016 as being "pragmatic".
EDIT: For the record, I am also sick of what I refer to as (for mind-bogglingly esoteric reasons of my own) "The Talons": The supremely pathological reflex, which in recent years seems to have spread like the plague COVID-19 could only have dreamed of being, of angrily batting away any idea that could actually solve problems, or any assertion that any cause to be miserable could ever be wrong. Petulant depression has gone from private dysfunction to public norm - which is especially harmful for actual depressives. I'm starting to understand some of the reasons people may have voted for Reagan.
In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.
Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!
Good points, very good!
Fatalism sucks. And yet, it is hard to get around.
I appreciate your comment, and it's given me something to think about. Thank you!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Many consider Hungary's Orban a pariah but this makes sense.
Yes, it does make sense...
Thanks for the link!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Its not a joke. For once Zelensky was telling the truth.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1687144345445572626
Can anyone actually see the tweet? If not I will delete.
It tells me it doesn't exist. :(
I'd love to know what it said.
In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.
Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!
Thanks I thought that this might happen.
The author of the tweet makes them private. I will leave it up to keep your comment in context.
Consider this a replacement. Worth clicking on show more.
I saw it
Zelensky doing a parody of a Banderite camp. Describing himself and pretending its a joke.
語必忠信 行必正直
Yep I though that it was pretty good
Too bad that everyone is unable to view it.
HI...
Was it this video? I did a search and found this on Youtube:
Funny (not really) how he's made his comedy his reality.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
You are correct. You must have gotten it from a different
Source. Thanks for finding it.
The most outstanding flaw in American politics
is the Biden foreign policy, and the fact that the Democrats are all united behind it because omigod Trump or some other delusion they feel obliged to protect. Sure, you could argue that the adverse trends that Brenner mentions:
lay the foundation, but let's be clear:
1) plutocracy -- for instance -- did not destroy Russia when Yeltsin created the oligarchs. Nor has it destroyed a number of other this-era nation-states with plutocrats. Why? There were people in these places who said, "sure, things suck, but we can improve them if we organize." The US political class, on the other hand, is deeply handicapped by being too busy pretending that things are just fine when in fact they do suck. The standard Biden pitch is that "the economy" is doing great so they don't have to do anything for that 58% of Americans who are living paycheck to paycheck. As regards Biden foreign policy the trend shows up in "Putin is weak" propaganda.
2) "neo-fascism" is more or less "omigod Trump," when anyone who was paying attention noticed that Trump was basically a lazy bum and failed billionaire deeply enamored of the sound of his own voice (which sucks). There's nothing about "neo-fascism" that holds a candle to the actual fascism of the period between 1914 and 1945. Question for the fascist-phobes: have the "fascists" yet done ANYTHING comparable to the expansion of the school-to-prison pipeline of the 1990s? But let's continue to pretend that Cornel West will help Trump. On the other hand, if Trump is re-elected we might get slightly less World War III, and who wouldn't be horrified about that? Meanwhile, the Republicans just sow chaos.
3) Our "leaders" have been nihilists and narcissists for some time now. It's with the Biden foreign policy that these attitudes have started to have some pretty profound consequences.
“The loyal Left cannot act decisively. Their devotion to the system is a built-in kill switch limiting dissent.” - Richard Moser
Yep, everything you say is...
true, I think. And I really appreciate the addition you've made to this discussion in your comment. I learned even more from it!
Thank you!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Re the illegal
immigration discussion last night, a few comments. RFK Jr's position is not to build a wall running the entire 2200 mi length of the border. That would be insane, Trump's ultimate border dream. But he is in favor of a physical barrier in heavily populated border towns, which are getting swamped with immigrants, local hospitals being overrun by immigrant medical issues. For the rest of the border he wants a ground sensing radar system, very effective, some of which was in place during DJT but for some reason taken out by Biden. Border Patrol in place for all the rest.
Stronger borders sounds right by me, as opposed to what appears to be open borders, at least according to RFJ Jr, who has visited down there and spoken to all concerned, which none of us online have done.
Proposed solutions the other day of having the military in charge sounds like a) a lot of military personnel to cover a 2200 mi border, and b) a recipe for disaster as these people are trained to shoot and kill. Also the alternative of "getting at the root" of a problem is a lot easier said than done. Per Kennedy, hundreds a day at one crossing are coming originally from various countries in Asia and Africa and E Europe, far fewer from Mexico or Central America. Even getting at a root problem wrt Mexican authorities agreeing to crack down on what looks like an overt, systematic scheme of allowing the flow of illegal immigrants through Mexico would be a major problem to solve in itself.
Nice if that could happen, but in the meantime we should first take care of what we can control then work on the other things diplomatically.
Sima, great OT!
I may have the time to read your links over the weekend. Today was so busy, it was nuts. I am pretty worn out from court and more court and even more client interviews.
Congrats on your veggies. Here, all gardens in the area crisped in the sun, no produce of any kind made it. I am glad I didn't waste time, energy, and money planting a garden this year. Heat domes suck.
Americans are mostly ignorant about their inception, aristocratic Founding Fathers, and mostly everything from then to right now. Oh, depressed?
Those rebellious Puritans landing here betrayed and slaughtered the indigenous, setting the pace and precedent that continues in many ways to this day. The glorious Revolution was about 1 issue, and it was only tangentially about taxation. It was because Great Britain declared no more slave trade. Next year, we revolted. Then, we had some decent humans try to end slavery, and the mostly Southern aristocracy said, we got State's Rights, and declared in their Constitution that slavery would be protected.
Even Texians revolted against Mexico over the slave issue. Santa Anna said "no slaves to be brought here, Texians said screw you.
Slavery was and is racist, but it is driven by economics. Cheap labor. Black made it easy for whites to differentiate and identify slaves.
Follow the money. We can all fall into deep, dark, depression, or face the reality: There has NEVER been an egalitarian state anywhere, at any time in history. Money is power, always has been.
Turn off the tv, watch movies with a critical eye, stay away from MSM, and understand, no population ever ended the dominance of the rich and powerful.
This is life, as we stupid fucking humans designed it.
Find a way to be happy, as best you can, within a framework of the perpetual dominance of the rich.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Great comment!
Once again, you're having me to think about things in a slightly different manner, thank you! 'Money is power, always has been.' And that's the truth, and before money, it was who had the most bananas, or rocks, or whatever.
Just find a way to be happy, to BE, to exist and enjoy what you can of life. Exactly!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Migrant tribes of less than 120 people
were the closest thing history ever showed as fair and just people.
Perhaps we should get our arrows, spears, and teepees ready, and be in a walking mood, with a few horses. That worked. it will work again, if worse comes to worse.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Sima, I read the article.
Didn't think I would have time until tomorrow.
Anyway, the one thing I wish he would have stressed, or even mentioned, is that Russia is pure capitalist. Communism left the place. I have been there, done that. I am not a fan of capitalism, not sure if Russia did itself a favor.
But he is spot on that the US citizenry is in a fog. Why wouldn't they be? They are so propagandized, they have no real concept of our problems.
My sig line fits here.
Thanks, Sima. Interesting read.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981