Open Thread - Thurs 28 July 2022 - Woke Hits Archaeology
Woke Hits Archaeology:
There seems to be a trend in archaeology and anthropology right now arguing that we should refuse to study and assign gender/sex to excavated corpses and skeletons.
This is because we can't actually know which gender the dead person being excavated or studied wanted to be and was in their society, so it's supposedly unfair to assign a gender based on their skeletal/etc remains (the sex they were born with) and/or the artefacts found with them.
I agree that we can't have exact knowledge of what gender the person wanted to be or was. While we can study overall trends (and let's be honest, most people accepted their role and gender, whatever it was, in their society and so the overall trend is probably correct), filtering out and understanding individual differences can be difficult. After all, it's a skeleton or cremation, how ever many thousands of years old, from a long gone society/culture that may or may not have left any recorded 'historical' (meaning written) evidence of how that society functioned and thought of the world. We are making inferences all the time about past cultures and societies and doing that based on our knowledge of our modern society. We can never erase our biases completely, we can never completely understand how it was to live in the cultures we study. That doesn't mean we should stop studying them, or not do our best to record what we've found and learned.
The answer, or one of the answers, I believe, is not to stop studying excavated remains and determining their birth sex/gender, or to stop examining whatever circumstances of their lives we can, how they were buried (or cremated, or exposed..) and what they were buried with and so on. The answer is to study all that we can using our own modern methods and theories about the context of those remains, about the artefacts found with them, and about the culture they came from and lived in. We should accept that our ideas and theories about those cultures change, as our own culture changes, but we shouldn't stop studying ancient cultures!
So, thanks for reading and here's the open thread - and remember, everything is interesting if you dive deep enough, so tell us about where you're diving!
Comments
Hello!
I'm off to bed early, so I won't be around when this posts. I'll be by in the afternoon though!
For all the bird lovers (like me) out there, we had a very strange thing happen early yesterday morning, just before and at dawn. We woke up to the sound of something scrabbling over our roof. It was LOUD and sounded big. Our roof is small, so the sound was coming from everywhere. I went to the bathroom and could hear whatever it was through the bathroom vent! Got out of the bathroom as my husband was waking up to the sound, and saw huge shadows flying around the windows. The windows were all open due to the heat wave. Turns out we had a 'murder' of crows on our roof. 20 or 30 crows! It was great (I like crows quite a bit). It seems a bit early for the crows to be regrouping for the winter, so it kinda worried me, but what do I know?
Hope everyone has or had a great day. As usual, comment about whatever you want, I love to read it!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
A 'murder' of crows. Good descriptor.
Found this headline today ..
America’s new third party emerges
https://www.rt.com/news/559745-forward-party-us-yang/
as much as I like the idea, it may just be another fundraising scam?
good day all!
Murder of crows
It's one of the words for flock that the victorians or earlier came up with, like an 'exhaltation' of larks. I love using murder of crows because everyone looks confused and then nods in agreement. Another word for a flock of crows, a 'congress' of crows. I'm not gonna leave a comment on that one
I'm hoping a third party takes. In fact, in the local primaries and elections, I'm only voting third, left wing, party if possible. I'm not a centrist, so a new centrist party isn't that exciting, but maybe, maybe it'd force the dems to the left!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
100% agree
and what you say has been happening. First American remains were returned to tribes from dusty storage room in museums. Old cemeteries discovered had the remains studied and reburied.
No, you can't tell the gender/sex/pronouns but in cases they can determine xx or xy. Recently a grave was excavated that contained weapons among the grave goods. They also found jewellery, and upon examining the remains closer found the person was female, and wear on the joints was consistent with weapons proficiency, a warrior. I am sure there were scientists wondering if they missed this in past digs. That's science for ya.
This instance of wokeywoke crap, though, is idiotic, and does nothing to advance acceptance and tolerance. I almost wonder if the republicans put it out there.
exactly, there were women warriors
in many ancient societies. Now, in most societies, warriors are men, just as, in most chimp groups, the males do the most fighting. But females fight, and females are warriors. I'm hoping to detail a few examples in my next OT. I couldn't this week, too much other work to do. But hell, there's even a female buried with male weapons, garb, and a horse in a ROMAN cemetery. Hah.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Heck
during WW2 women did everything. What happened after was the great forgetting by the WW2/Great Depression/PTSD generation.
The gender debate seem absurd to me...
What a waste of energy. My thought is this is an end of empire kind of issue. Of all our challenges this seems trivial and just another divide and conquer technique.
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
I gotta agree, it is absurb.
I'm just pissed because it's invaded some aspects of archaeology. But, whatever...
Harvested garlic and onions today. Will harvest broccoli tomorrow. Wonder what gender they are? Heh, actually garlic isn't gendered, no seeds. But whatever!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
woke skeletons?
Some special irony in getting to the woke skeletons portion of the show.
Whether Australopithecus, Cro-Magnon, or any homind, I can tell the sex from across the room by looking at the skeleton with one eye. Scientifically it is utterly ridiculous to pretend otherwise.
The current woke version of 'gender' is irrelevant to the science of the matter.
Gender apparently is a psychological construct. As such it is fluid. Whereas a skeleton much less so. One could change gender a hundred times in a life in theory. But not their skeleton.
We used to sort and separate athletes in sports based roughly on physical markers like sex, age, size, weight, etc. The idea being it should be a fair fight. Now it is sorted by some fluid woke factor. How ya feelin' today, or this year?
I think the way we should sort athletes is the same way you sort skeltons to sex from across the room. We take an x-ray of their body and they are sorted by pelvic girdle. They don't even have to take their clothes off. The types should never be mixed. We should not pretend we do not know what it means or why they are different. It is physicality. As an alternative plan we simply use DNA. Two of same chromosomes or two different, never the twain shall meet.
titanium asbestos undies engaged
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better.
both - Albert Einstein
It definitely is irrelevant
That's great that you have that experience with skeletons. I started doing that kind of work when I was much younger, on California Indian remains from a cemetery north of the Bay Area. But I got sidetracked into archaeology and my absolute academic love, the Roman Empire.
I also agree about athletes. If a man wants to turn into a woman (but no babies!), then fine, but she/he better compete against other men who have turned into women.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
a murder?
Hi Sima, Crows are cool. But nest predators on smaller species.
Murder is the correct term, as in a gaggle of geese. I had a long list of those, I'm sure one is findable on the intertubes. There are dozens, one of my faves is 'an exhultation of larks'.
be well, take care
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better.
both - Albert Einstein
I love the terms for the flocks of birds...
And murder fits with the crows. And with ravens. Ravens and crows will fly over in their 'murders' or 'congresses' and imitate the sounds of the four legged animals they are passing over. Had a pair of ravens that always barked like dogs when they passed over our fields. They were taunting our dog. Crows now fly over and sound kinda like goats. It's funny!
I never raised huge fields of corn or wheat, so I never have had much trouble with crows. I know they often eat seed corn pretty badly. And they will congregate around anything that is dead in the field. It's how we found a cougar killed goat, once.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Coincidentally...
...I just ran into this:
https://www.eatliver.com/sean-tejaratchi/#more-68372
In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.
Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!
That was hilarious!
Thank you, made me laugh out loud!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Lavrov drops truth bombs during his 4-state Africa tour
Truthbombs indeed!
This crap about Pelosi going to Taiwan is making me both very angry and very scared. I do not want a war with China! (Or Russia, or anyone!). Why that old b*tch thinks she can do this, when even Biden says no, is incomprehensible. I guess she figures she's gonna die soon anyway, so what does she care?
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Righteous rant - It's time to wake up
Wow..
That was awesome! Righteous indeed!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
The woke farce, applied in this manner, destroys
history. If you erase male and female, then you also erase the Berdache which were an extremely important and significant cultural and societal phenomena, from which we can all learn a lot.
fwiw, I am a mammal; my pronouns are "hey you" and "it". We have obtained a lot of understanding of the world by defining and refining, by classifying in ever more and more detail. The more detail we "erase" the more intellectual entropy prevails and the more all things become simply events. no different from any other event, from which nothing may be learned or understood.
be well and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
That's my worry, that it destroys
history. I see this in some minor history type groups (the Society for Creative Anachronism). One isn't allowed to try to understand what the historical culture thought about... well, for example gypsies. One isn't allowed to talk about slavery in Europe before the 'discovery' of Africa. And so on... Makes me very sad. How can we change if we can't understand, or try to understand, what life was like 'before'? For so many, many, many societies and cultures?
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Hey Sima,
I come from a large family, and some of us and all of my and my sibling's kids ("the cousins", 20 in all) stay in contact over social media. Two of those twenty are trans, and they do occasionally post something to "educate" the elders that follow the whole lot. The cousins seem to get it (the gender/sex part) 100% independent of their politics. The cousins range from 23-43 years.
Anyhow, recently, in response to one of the elder's posts, one of the cousins posted this:
Assigning Gender to Skeletal Remains
They are one of the younger cousins and I think might have studied archeology.
I actually found the article clear and convincing. It doesn't seem like any science is being squelched, just a calling for taking care in assigning labels that we don't *really* know? I think I read that some ancient skeletal remains were originally assigned as not just male but "warrior" by a 19th century archeologist, only to have a reanalysis change the findings?
Interesting subject on all accounts. I'm still working my way through Graeber and Wengrow's recent tome. It really smacks you in the face with the idea that we know so little about our cumulative cultural history and so much of what we think we know is based on more recent and Eurocentric views. Mindblowing and opening stuff.
Thanks!
That's an excellent article, excellent. I agree, and always have, that assigning 'gender' in archaeology is problematic. But using DNA or skeletal markers to determine sex is not. And finding out that 80% or 99% or whatever of graves with weapons have skeletons whose DNA or markers show they were male is just one of the things to lead archaeologists to say that in x culture men were usually or mostly the ones buried with weapons. This might mean that when they were alive they were usually warriors, it might not. And archaeologists will often acknowledge this uncertainty.
Once again, great article. Thank you for sharing it!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Just recieved this in my mailbox
outstanding !
you rock CB! and you win the internets today for me...
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better.
both - Albert Einstein
That rocks!
Laughing out loud... it's perfect, thank you!!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
We ought to be able to determine
the sex of a skeleton, and not be accused of asserting any cultural allusions. Good damn grief. Being born in one or the other sex possibilities is NOT a comment or criticism of anything.
Joan of Arc was famous because of her sex. Take that away, and she ain't jack shit.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
You are deliberately misgendering her
That should be "Jill shit". That will have negative consequences for her self-confidence and overall mental health in the future.
My very bad.
I wanted to see "Guys and Dolls", or
"12 Angry Men", or read about the Salem Witches, but I just can't.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Exactly!
And determining the skeleton's sex has nothing to do with determining their life in their society. Most times, we can only suggest aspects of their life, very interesting dribs and drabs...
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
I am already very
weary of woke. This is just so crazy for me, personally. I have friend who used to come clean my house. A guy who identified as a woman. Decades ago. He was attracted to men. He is my friend to this day. I never gave it any thought. I hired a gay paralegal. She dressed in men's clothing. I gave it no thought. I do not care, or judge, or even consider it my right to do so.
But I have been accused by a woke person of showing disrespect for using a feminine pronoun when speaking to her. (It?). Well, she looked like a she. I still don't have any info that tells me she is not a she. This just moves polite society into uncharted territory.
All the scientific areas need some damn place to start. Sex id is that beginning. You cannot argue or ignore DNA.
Those who are something else should either be polite and explain themselves, and get insulted because looks are deceiving.
Rant over. Hope the goats are safe, and that you got a bad ass Great Pyrenees.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981