Nato to expand "high readiness" troops from to 300K from 40K

High readiness means fully equipped and ready to fly anywhere on a moments notice. Many troops will be pre positioned and equipment stored close to Nato's eastern side. The Baltics are considered especially vulnerable to Russian aggression.

The invasion of Ukraine, and the way in which Russia has prosecuted it's war by purposely killing and terrorizing civilians has been a huge encouragement for all of Europe to join together in self defence.

300,000 troops all equipped with the most modern aircraft, armor, etc. would more than likely be enough to deter Russia from further invasions.

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Comments

I don't share your enthusiasm for death.

You don't see it that way?
Let's reverse the actors. What if Russia was building up forces in, say, Syria in order to deter America from illegally occupying more of the country.

Would you see that as preventing war?

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@gjohnsit I think the more accurate comparison would be if the "BRICS Defensive Strategic Initiative" was building up troops in both Mexico and Canada simultaneously.
Well if this country keeps acting as stupidly as it is, that time is probably not far away.

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@gjohnsit Russia is the country killing people. Some say 35K civilians so far. If Russia went home all killing would stop.

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@ban nock
We are stationing hundreds of thousands of troops on the border of a nuclear power.
Let's also recognize that we are killing people too. Hundreds of thousands of civilians.
Even more important, and largely ignored, the U.S. has BOMBED A NUCLEAR POWER AGAINST THEIR WILL.
I'm speaking of Pakistan, which we bombed for about a decade, despite Pakistan's protests.

So if you were Russia, what you would see is a dangerous escalation, from a nation more than willing to start hostilities against a nuclear power, from a nation who clearly said that they sought regime change. Oh, and we've openly meddled in their elections in the past.
I don't have to remind you of the last time we were successful in regime change.

If I was Russia I would be terrified. And a terrified Russia is likely to react the same way a terrified U.S. would react: By striking out at the people that terrify you.

Is that clear? Can you understand why this is a huge mistake?

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@gjohnsit

If I was Russia I would be terrified. And a terrified Russia is likely to react the same way a terrified U.S. would react: By striking out at the people that terrify you.

Russians don't tend to terrify easily. And they have something like adult leadership with an attention span longer than the next news cycle.

If they were as clueless as our own 'leadership' *that* would be something to worry about.

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@gjohnsit Russia is so terrified they invaded their neighbor. LOL. It's like the wife beater saying don't force me to hit you.

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CB's picture

@ban nock
The majority, by far, were not of any military threat to it.

Here's just the ones since WWII:

China 1945-46, Korea 1950-53, China 1950-53, Guatemala 1954
Indonesia 1958, Cuba 1959-60, Guatemala 1960, Belgian Congo 1964
Guatemala 1964, Dominican Republic 1965-66, Peru 1965, Laos 1964-73
Vietnam 1961-73, Cambodia 1969-70, Guatemala 1967-69, Lebanon 1982-84
Grenada 1983-84, Libya 1986, El Salvador 1981-92, Nicaragua 1981-90
Iran 1987-88, Libya 1989, Panama 1989-90

Here's the ones since the USSR has ended:

Iraq 1991, Kuwait 1991, Somalia 1992-94, Bosnia 1995, Iran 1998,
Sudan 1998, Afghanistan 1998, Yugoslavia – Serbia 1999,
Afghanistan 2001, Libya 2011, Iraq and Syria 2014 –,
Somalia 2011 –, Iran 2020 –

How many tens of millions of innocent deaths of civilians have been caused by these wars? It is estimated that well over 50 million died from direct and indirect effects to American covert/overt military action.

Take note that NONE, at the time of conflict, were near peers to American firepower. EVERY single one of these countries were relatively poor, defenceless and of ZERO threat to America's homeland!

Now tell us how many similar attacks came from the USSR and Russia? Any wars they have been involved in were in response to direct threats - instigated by the US or it's satraps.

Russia (and China) are not stupid. I would argue that their citizens are much smarter and better informed than the dumbed down Americans. They both are now preparing for war with the US and they will be formidable enemies when the time comes. They both have the means to reach out and 'touch' the US mainland. Maybe that is what will be required to end American wars once and for all - by striking the US capital where this festering scab on humanity originates from.

That's why I'm putting my money on Russia and China to put the US in it's place in the coming decade.

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@CB I don't have the time nor inclination to discuss every conflict you mentioned. Yes many we went into without provocation. I do think the South Koreans are happy to not live in the north. I don't know of any countries that ended up better off under communism, and I have family who are party members. Like in communist countries not the wanna be rich kids that take it up like a nose piercing here.

One thing though that is different between us and the Russians in Ukraine, Georgia, Kaliningrad, etc. Russia attacks neighbors, forcibly removes the populations, imports ethnic Russians, and absorbs the territory into Russia. China did the same in Yunnan, Tibet, and now Xinjiang.

You don't get arrested here for carrying a sign in front of the White House saying stop the war. In Russia you do. We vote, in contested elections, don't like the candidates, run. In Russia the same guy wins for decades, and opposition candidates have a mysterious way of ending up poisoned.

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Pricknick's picture

@ban nock
to stir the shit up.

I don't have the time nor inclination to discuss every conflict you mentioned.

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Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.

@Pricknick and make a long comment in gjohnsit's essay about the working class suffering in this economy. Interesting.

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snoopydawg's picture

@ban nock

to Palestinians with our blessing and support.

Russia attacks neighbors, forcibly removes the populations, imports ethnic Russians, and absorbs the territory into Russia

Weird how the world isn’t upset with what Israel has been doing don’t you think? And their constant bombings in Syria and killing Iranian scientists. Kind of a double standard I think. And gawd’s nightgown why don’t people have a problem with how Obama brutally overthrew Ukraine’s president and installed a puppet one? The hypocrisy of the world is beyond unbelievable. Not to mention all the other countries we’ve invaded and committed coups in.

I’d mention what we’re doing in Yemen and gawd only knows how many more countries, but you’re probably bored by now cuz my comment is too long.

But you are going to need a link that backs that up.

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It is not until the tide goes out that you discover who has been swimming naked.

CB's picture

@ban nock

China did the same in Yunnan, Tibet, and now Xinjiang.

Absolute nonsense.

Yunnan is the most culturally diverse region in China. There are 25 minorities in Yunnan which have more than 5,000 members. Among them, 16 are indigenous. Compare how the US has treated their indigenous minorities. Some of these groups have histories thousands of years old yet they are encouraged and celebrated.

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@CB CB I lived in Yunnan for a year, I also wrote and recorded public service informationals for their tourism sector. You should probably read more and post less until you have some vague idea what you are talking about.

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CB's picture

@ban nock
how China "Russia attacks neighbors, forcibly removes the populations, imports ethnic Russians, and absorbs the territory into Russia. China did the same in Yunnan, Tibet, and now Xinjiang" with specifics? BTW, that's the kind of thing that DKos is known for - unsubstantiated accusations with zero backup documentation.

@CB CB I lived in Yunnan for a year, I also wrote and recorded public service informationals for their tourism sector. You should probably read more and post less until you have some vague idea what you are talking about.

I have been studying China for well over 4 decades! Please enlighten us with your experiences. You can just post a link or two to prove your point.

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@CB Sure...
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1755-1315/690/1/012006/pdf
Especially look at 2.2. Yunnan historically had a very small Han/muslim population. They went from just about 0% han to probably 60 or 70 % today. Dali was the center of the Nanzhao Kingdom, and that's Bai, not Han.

The CIA used to encourage trouble down in Sipsongbana too. (Xisuanbana?)

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CB's picture

@ban nock
anything from the last 50 years or so to prove your point that the people of Yunnan had been forcefully ethnically displaced?

Especially look at 2.2. Yunnan historically had a very small Han/muslim population. They went from just about 0% han to probably 60 or 70 % today. Dali was the center of the Nanzhao Kingdom, and that's Bai, not Han.

The following from Wiki - History of Yunnan

Han dynasty

In 109 BC, Emperor Wu sent General Guo Chang (郭昌) south to Yunnan, establishing the Yizhou commandery.[2] The commandery seat was at Dianchi county (present day Jinning). To expand the burgeoning trade with Burma and India, Emperor Wu also sent Tang Meng (唐蒙) to maintain and expand the Five Foot Way, renaming it "Southwest Barbarian Circuit" (西南夷道).[citation needed] By this time, agricultural technology in Yunnan had markedly improved. The local people used bronze tools, plows and kept a variety of livestock, including cattle, horses, sheep, goats, pigs and dogs. They lived in tribal congregations, sometimes led by exile Chinese.

Nanzhao Kingdom

In 649 AD the chieftain of the Yi Mengshe tribe, Xinuluo (細奴邏), founded a kingdom (大蒙國; Dàméngguó) in the area of Lake Erhai. In the year AD 737, Piluoge (皮羅閣) united the six zhaos in succession, establishing a new kingdom called Nanzhao.

In 750, Nanzhao invaded the Tang dynasty. In retaliation, the Tang sent an army against Nanzhao in 751, but this army was soundly defeated at Xiaguan. In 754, another army was sent, this time from the north, but it too was defeated. Bolstered by these successes, Nanzhao expanded rapidly, first into Burma, then into the rest of Yunnan, down into northern Laos and Thailand, and finally, north into Sichuan. In 829, Chengdu was taken; it was a great prize, as it enabled Nanzhao to lay claim to the whole of Sichuan province, with its rich paddy fields.

The Tang dynasty retaliated and by 873, Nanzhao had been expelled from Sichuan, and retreated back to Yunnan. Taking Chengdu marked the high point of the Nanzhao kingdom, and it was a watershed: from then on, the Nanzhao Kingdom slowly declined. n 902, the Nanzhao dynasty was overthrown, and it was followed by three other dynasties in quick succession, until Duan Siping seized power in 937 to establish the Kingdom of Dali.

Yunnan in a development dilemma
August 11, 2020

The Chinese province risks exposing its ethnic cultures and cultural ecology too much, and eroding the basic principles of sustainability.

China’s western region, covering two-thirds of its territory and nearly 23 percent of the national population, comprises nine provinces and autonomous regions—Gansu, Guizhou, Ningxia, Qinghai, Shaanxi, Sichuan, Tibet, Xinjiang, Yunnan and Chongqing Municipality. After eastern China’s 14,000-km coastline brought fortunes to the country during the period 1980-2000, western China with a 3,500-km land frontier was considered to become the second golden area of reopening. During these two decades, China witnessed glaring regional disparity, and the western region emerged very vulnerable. Its seven coastal divisions handled 75 percent of national exports, more than 90 percent of all processing exports and 67 percent of imports. In 1998, Tibet and Gansu had the lowest per capita rural consumption of 710 yuan and 939 yuan respectively.
...
Kunming Initiative

China launched the Kunming Initiative in 1999. The core rationale was to gravitate the ‘backward zones of eastern South Asia and its periphery’ including Bangladesh, the north-eastern region of India, Bhutan and Nepal to the sub-regional idea of Kolkata to Kunming (K2K). This was both to subsume India’s Look East policy introduced in 1992 and facilitate China’s entry into the Indian Ocean from its unexplored western flank.

In Premier Zhu Rongji’s report on National Economic and Social Development during the 10th Five-Year Plan (2001-05), developing the western region for regionally balanced economic development and also deepening reform were major deviations. It launched the 'develop-the-west' campaign in 2000 with five major components—infrastructure construction, environmental protection, adjustment of the industrial structure, promotion of science, technology and education, and economic reforms. These measures brought significant development in the whole of western region. These provinces started interacting intimately with the neighbouring countries, particularly Southeast Asian countries.

Yunnan’s development status, along with Tibet and Sichuan, has undergone massive transformation. They have moved from the basics to more sophisticated interventions and to more pivotal roles within China. Just two decades ago, Yunnan—a mountainous landlocked province with Myanmar in the west and Laos and Vietnam in the south—was considered to be a slow growing poverty-stricken province majorly dependent on cattle rearing and tobacco farming. It had huge infrastructural gaps and poor connectivity with major Chinese cities and development centres. Its overwhelming ethnic population of 24 minorities kept it as a sensitive zone for any major development intervention.

Today, it is one of the most vibrant provinces and an over-bridge to Southeast Asia. During the period 1990 to 2018, the gross regional domestic product increased from $9.41 billion to $269.7 billion. Its per capita income recorded an almost 22-fold jump. Initiatives under the west-east (Shanghai-Yunnan) cooperation made huge investments, and helped alleviate poverty among various ethnic minorities. In 2011, the 'three prefectures helping three counties' model was adopted with a focus on aspects of production, living, education and medicine.
...

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@CB you have been "studying" and you post tourism videos from you tube????

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CB's picture

@ban nock
diversity that China fully supports. The US values it's "melting pot" where all cultures are quickly subsumed within 1 to 2 generations. Compare to the treatment of indigenous people/immigrants and racial disparities in America.

UNESCO World Heritage Sites in Yunnan

Yunnan, known for its beauty and stunning nature landscapes as well as unique ethnic minorities, has attracted many visitors to explore the region. When you travel to Yunnan, 5 famous tourist attractions that listed as the World Heritage Sites are recommended to you.

Up to now, Yunnan has five UNESCO World Heritage sites; 3 natural, 2 cultural plus 2 additional location on the tentative list. Being famous and regarded as world heritage, those destinations are the must visit places during your Yunnan Travel.

You have still not provided any specifics for your complaints about China. China has come a long way since their reform and opening-up policy started by Deng Xiaoping at the 1978 Third Plenum.

BTW, I had an ischemic stroke a year ago and have Broca's Aphasia which has affected my speech and writing abilities so I take short cuts to get my arguments across.

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studentofearth's picture

@ban nock @ban nock
a year in the tourism sector. It is one of the poorer provinces of China. Life in the region would have been substantially different than staying and working in one of the more prosperous areas of China.

Completing the high speed trains are improving future opportunities for tourism and trade.

A little info on Yunnan for our readers.
a 1971 CIA map on Wikipedia of the various ethnic groups. (link for a better view) (note: Burma is now called Myanmar)

Yunnan Wikipedia 7-2-2022

Yunnan UK: /juːˈnæn/,[5] US: /ˌjuːˈnɑːn/[6] (Chinese: 云南) is a landlocked province in the southwest of the People's Republic of China. The province spans approximately 394,000 square kilometres (152,000 sq mi) and has a population of 48.3 million (as of 2018). The capital of the province is Kunming. The province borders the Chinese provinces of Guizhou, Sichuan, autonomous regions of Guangxi, and Tibet as well as Southeast Asian countries: Vietnam, Laos, and Myanmar. Yunnan is China's fourth least developed province based on disposable income per capita in 2014.[7]

Yunnan is situated in a mountainous area, with high elevations in the northwest and low elevations in the southeast. Most of the population lives in the eastern part of the province. In the west, the altitude can vary from the mountain peaks to river valleys by as much as 3,000 metres (9,800 ft). Yunnan is rich in natural resources and has the largest diversity of plant life in China.
...
The main challenge that Yunnan faces is its lack of major development. Its low productivity and competitiveness restrict the rapid development of the province. The province also faces great challenges in social issues such as environmental protection, poverty elimination, illegal migration, drug trafficking and HIV/AIDS.
...
Yunnan Province, due to its landscapes, mild climate and cultural diversity, is one of China's major tourist destinations. Most visitors are Chinese tourists, although trips to Yunnan are organized by an increasing number of foreign travel agencies as well.

Yunnan Province Wikipedia 7-2-2022

Yunnan is a de jure province in the Republic of China according to the ROC law, as the ROC government formally claims to be the legitimate government of the whole China. It was one of the 22 provinces set up during the Qing dynasty. As one of the 6 provinces in South China, the territory it administers was slightly larger than the present-day Yunnan.

As the ROC does not recognize changes in administrative divisions made by the PRC, including this province, official maps of the ROC government shows Yunnan in its pre-1949 boundaries.
...
In Second Sino-Japanese War, Yunnan served as, among other things, a home base for the Flying Tigers. The Burma Road was constructed, along which supplies travelled into the province and then into the heart of China. In 1942 the Chinese Expeditionary Force entered Burma to fight with the British against the Japanese invasion, eventually fighting to a standstill across the Nu River for 2 years. The province was also a refuge for people, especially university faculty and students, from the east. These had originally retreated to Changsha, but as the Japanese forces were gaining more territory they eventually bombed Changsha in February 1938. The 800 staff faculty and students who were left had to flee and made the 1,000-mile journey to Kunming. It was here that the National Southwest Associated University (commonly known as Lianda) was established. In these extraordinary wartime circumstances for eight years, staff, professors and students had to survive and operate in makeshift quarters that were subject to sporadic bombing campaigns by Japan. There were dire shortages of food, equipment, books, clothing and other essential needs, but they did manage to conduct the running of a modern university. Over those eight years of war (1937–1945), Lianda became famous nationwide for having and producing many, if not most, of China's most prominent academics, scholars, scientists and intellectuals. Both of China's only Nobel laureates in physics studied at Lianda.[citation needed]

After the end of the Second Sino-Japanese War, Long was removed from office.[3] During the Chinese Civil War, Nationalist forces retreated to the southwest provinces of Szechwan, Sikang, and Yunnan. In 9 December 1949, Chairperson of the Provincial Government Lu Han defected to the Communists and most of the Nationalist troops were defeated in the province. Remnants of the Nationalist forces, led by Li Mi and using Mong Hsat as a base, engaged in guerrilla warfare against the Communists, briefly capturing parts of Yunnan territory. In 1951 the provincial government in exile was dissolved and in 1954, Li Mi's remaining troops retreated to Taiwan.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

@ban nock and yet it doesn't matter that you are right.

Just look at the propaganda from any war, especially wars of the United States.
WE WERE ALWAYS THREATENED! There was always something to be scared of. We never wanted to go to war, but the other guy never left us a choice.

That's how those monsters think! Those war mongers that exist in every government think that everyone else is an evil monster just looking for an excuse to kill all of them.
And to a certain extent they are right.

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@gjohnsit

Do nothing as he takes down another country on his border? IMO he has simply given NATO a concrete reason for its existence. Pretty dumb of him, I would say.

I just don't get the apologetics for Putin. I get that we and others have behaved badly, and I am constantly disgusted with our government's actions and foreign policy. But NOTHING justifies what Putin is doing to the people in Ukraine. And that is the core issue here.

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"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

CB's picture

@Fishtroller 02
of the causes of this conflict. You seem to be grossly ill informed and refuse to look at any historical context despite many here responding with recommendations.

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@Fishtroller 02 been prodding and poking and provoking the Russian bear for years about including UKR in Nato, arming UKR, shelling the largely Russian speaking population in the Donbas, and generally creating a direct threat to Russia, as Putin sees it and as he's clearly warned about for years, and somehow Putin is the bully here?

Try to see things a bit more from the other side's perspective. And no, you don't get to decide what they consider a direct threat to their survival. The point is they perceive our actions as a direct threat to them, period.

And if the tables were turned, and Ru entered into a military alliance with Canada or Mexico, de jure or de facto, and Ru began shipping in billions of $ in military arms, and then the leaders of Mexico or Canada also talked about getting nuclear weapons, the US reaction would be a spectacularly massive and fast military response, with far less concern than Russia has with UKR about civilian casualties.

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@Fishtroller 02

So how would YOU handle the bully?

How did the rest of the world handle the U.S. when it invaded Iraq? When it bombed Libya? When America was acting like a bully?
Oh, that's right. IT JOINED IN!

That's not what I am suggesting. But I wanted to point out the false scenario that the world must stand up to bullies, and do whatever it takes to stop them. Including risking nuclear war.
Perhaps there is a middle ground.

IMO he has simply given NATO a concrete reason for its existence. Pretty dumb of him, I would say.

I agree. I think he made a mistake. I believe I wrote an essay that said exactly that.

I just don't get the apologetics for Putin.

And then you went there...

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CB's picture

@gjohnsit
should have handled the situation that was developing in Ukraine by January 2022?

IMO he has simply given NATO a concrete reason for its existence. Pretty dumb of him, I would say.

I agree. I think he made a mistake. I believe I wrote an essay that said exactly that.

I think that the intent of the neocon warmongers now in control in the US were intent on pushing Putin to the wall and they weren't going to stop until they got their proxy war. (They have a limited time to defang Russia before the real conflict with China ensues. After 2025, the US will lose much it's hegemonic financial power over the world.) Fortunately, they completely underestimated Putin and the will of the Russian people backing him. It appears that they drunk the koolaid that they had mixed themselves and were serving up in the highly propagandized echo chambers of the western world. It's fatal to believe in one's own hubris.

US/NATO Wants War With Russia
John Rachel April 26, 2022

Cold War 2.0, Neocon Strategy of World Conquest, War and Peace, World War III

Here is a speech Vladimir Putin could have made but DID NOT make — at least in this specific language — to the Russian people just before initiating the special military operations in Ukraine:

“It is my responsibility as the president to warn our citizens of secret, swift, and extraordinary buildup of US/NATO lethal weaponry — in an area well known to have a special and historical relationship to Russia and the nations of our hemisphere, in violation of American assurances, and in defiance of treaties and our own policies — this sudden, clandestine decision to station strategic weapons on our borders — is a deliberately provocative and unjustified change in the status quo which cannot be accepted by this country.”

Does this have a familiar feel to it?

Here is the speech which President John F. Kennedy DID MAKE to the American people on October 22, 1962, when he warned of a ...

“… secret, swift, and extraordinary buildup of Communist missiles — in an area well known to have a special and historical relationship to the United States and the nations of the Western Hemisphere, in violation of Soviet assurances, and in defiance of American and hemispheric policy — this sudden, clandestine decision to station strategic weapons for the first time outside of Soviet soil — is a deliberately provocative and unjustified change in the status quo which cannot be accepted by this country.”

The Cuban Missile Crisis which resulted from the discovery of this military escalation by the Soviets, almost resulted in a world war and nuclear annihilation.

The tables have rotated 180º. Now it is the US which is putting the survival of humankind at risk, escalating the crisis with Ukraine by dumping more and more weapons into the conflict zone, demonizing Putin and everything Russian, apparently urging the Ukrainians to avoid a negotiated peace and to fight to the bitter end.
...

So ...

What conclusion can we draw from all of this? What message are we actually hearing from Biden, Blinken, Stoltenberg, Johnson, Scholz, Macron, and the rest of the US puppets around the world?

I can see only one: US/NATO wants war with Russia. Which frankly, hardly comes as a surprise. From documents, white papers, policy statements, speeches by officials in the State Department and various administrations along the way, all easily accessed by just looking, the dismemberment of Russia and looting its vast and varied natural resources has been on the agenda for at least three decades.

Yes, folks ...

It’s war. Not liberation. Not freedom and democracy. It’s war.

Please correct me if I’m wrong.

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snoopydawg's picture

@ban nock

has been killing Ukrainians in the Donbas. They’ve got Russia beat by 5,000, but obviously they don’t count as civilians in your mind. Another one believing what they are told and ignoring what’s inconvenient to their narrative.

It’s one thing that makes your outrage about Russia so hypocritical. That and nothing about what your own country is doing in Yemen, Afghanistan, Syria and Somalia. Why do you ignore your own country’s butchery and war crimes?

Will you bother to answer me?

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It is not until the tide goes out that you discover who has been swimming naked.

ggersh's picture

@ban nock please let me know.

Russiaamerika is the country killing people. SomeCIA/DOD say 35K civilians so far(How many died in Afghanistan,Somalia,Iraq,Libya,Syria,Pakistan. If Russia went home all killing would stop, except for in the Donbass where Ukraine will still use artillery on Russian civilians.

Oh, I'll just add supporting Nazi's just ain't my thing, why is it yours?

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“Those who choose the lesser evil forget very quickly that they chose evil.”
— Hannah Arendt

@gjohnsit

for death because he has pointed out that NATO is expanding it's defenses in response to Russian aggression? Are you also becoming a slinger of insults in order to make your points?

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"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

@Fishtroller 02 but you are seeing things only from a US perspective, with a mindset that parrots the US NatSec official line, and as a result you are getting flak for toeing the official line. I don't think the official line usually fares well on this board.

It's not a huge effort to consider that great powers, per Mearsheimer, tend to be hypersensitive about what's going on on their borders, particularly a long and important one like UKR-Ru that has tremendous historical significance wrt foreign invasions. Putin publicly warned the west/US way back in 2008 about messing too much in UKR.

Why didn't we listen to Ru's clear expressions of their security concerns? Because perhaps we are used to not listening to them and to doing what we damn well please bc we are the world's most indispensable nation?

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@wokkamile

I am not seeing this from any other perspective than my own. I'm not towing the line for any certain media. I happen to think (on my own) that the invasion of Ukraine was not justified. I happen to think that Putin is not just a dictator, but a bully who thinks he can run a war full of crimes against humanity. I happen to have a lot of sympathy for the people of Ukraine, who I don't think give a rat's ass about the history or the reasons behind why Russia is killing all their families and bombing everything to the level of a blade of grass.
I'm tired of being told that this opinion is not in vogue here, or that I know nothing about any of this, and therefore have the wrong opinion.
And speaking of media influence, I see an awful lot of influence of Russian or pro-Putin generated sourcing here that is nothing but propaganda from the other side. So don't lecture me on media sourcing.
So you think that the rest of the world "not listening" to Putin's security concerns justifies his annexation of sovereign nations along his border? And not just annexing.... absolutely destroying. If so, we do not agree.

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"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

@Fishtroller 02 your last comment, it matters a great deal our not listening to Russia's security concerns as by failing to do so we must not be surprised when they finally react, even in stronger ways than we might have anticipated. (And no person, official or otherwise, should be lecturing other countries about adhering strictly to international law. We invoke it only when it pleases us.)

So too what we are now doing via Nato with Finland and Sweden. The Russians have made clear they expect previous long-held agreements between Ru and Finland to be followed, and so Finland now doing a 180 is not going to sit well with Russia. The two countries do share a long 800 mile border after all, though densely wooded. Finland and Sweden have now guaranteed a large Russian military buildup in the vicinity, and far from making themselves more secure have guaranteed their countries will be among the first to face the might of the Russian military forces if, as current trends suggest might happen, we end up in the near future in a direct toe-to-toe with the Rooskies.

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@wokkamile

Finland etc. ..."Finland and Sweden have now guaranteed a large Russian military buildup in the vicinity, and far from making themselves more secure have guaranteed their countries will be among the first to face the might of the Russian military forces if, as current trends suggest might happen, we end up in the near future in a direct toe-to-toe with the Rooskies."

So it's damned if they do and damned if they don't. Russia attacking Ukraine with such vengeance and sick disregard for civilians is not a good reason to apply for protections? Also, Russia withdrew its signature from the Geneva Conventions. https://thehill.com/opinion/international/466531-russias-snub-of-geneva-...

I would say that is another good reason to join NATO. Putin made this bed and so he should lie in it.

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"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

snoopydawg's picture

@Fishtroller 02

NATO did. They’ve been moving the bed closer to Russia which threatens their security. How can you not get that? Russia didn’t overthrow Ukraine’s president..WE DID.

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It is not until the tide goes out that you discover who has been swimming naked.

@Fishtroller 02 feel it's in their best security interests to attack at some point as Finland has now announced it wants to join into the Nato military alliance which is clearly hostile and a threat to Russia. That was Finland's choice, the bed they themselves made, to move away from friendly neutrality to become a part of the group, led by the US, trying to undermine and destroy Russia.

The US/West's hostility to Russia has been overtly expressed by the Biden admin and various Nato leaders, and so it's clear that Nato moving its troops into places on Russia's border like Finland isn't just for purely defensive purposes. The US stated goal is to get rid of Putin and break up the RF into smaller more manageable pieces that prevent it from being a major power to rival the US.

Finland made the bed to sleep in. They should reconsider but won't. Now they must face the consequences.

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@wokkamile

If you saw another border state of Russia, like Crimea and Ukraine attacked and taken over by Russia, wouldn't you want to re-think that position. You give Finland no credit for thinking for themselves. You would like to choose for them? Do you think they now deserve to be attacked by Russia?

"The US stated goal is to get rid of Putin and break up the RF into smaller more manageable pieces that prevent it from being a major power to rival the US."

Could you share a source for this statement?

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"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

@Fishtroller 02 @Fishtroller 02 saw the events unfolding in UKR, and presumably some in that govt are aware of its long ties and importance to Ru/SovUnion and events since 2014 and the US-backed coup, did they seek to talk w Putin about reassurance over their neutrality agreement, or did they only seek to engage w the US/Nato?

Here is a link about the US wanting to break up Ru, including some history I wasn't aware of. https://mronline.org/2022/06/27/u-s-govt-body-plots-to-break-up-russia-i.... And here is the link to Biden's comments in march about desiring to get rid of Putin. https://www.npr.org/2022/03/28/1089300515/biden-putin-remarks-regime-change Did any US president or head of Nato back in the darkest days of the Cold War ever talk openly about getting rid of Khrushchev, Brezhnev or his successors?

re Crimea: Ru reclaiming what was once their territory, and a not unreasonable response as they saw what was unfolding in UKR in 2014 with the US/Nato seeming to be about to use Crimea to establish their own naval port. This Ru understandably could not risk. What did you think of the US-backed coup in 2014 which caused so much destabilization in the area? Were you under the impression that neighbor Russia would just sit back and watch passively? Is that what major powers do?

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snoopydawg's picture

@wokkamile

broke up. Clinton helped get Yeltsin elected and then he opened up Russia to the theft of their resources. One reason we hate Putin is that he put a stop to the theft and went after the Russian oligarchs that grabbed as much as they could.

As you said, Biden told the world that he wanted regime change in Russia and it’s why he is sanctioning them to the max. It’s what we’ve done in Iraq, Iran, Venezuela and countless other countries. They have as much chance of overthrowing their governments as we do ours. People need to understand that by giving trillions to the military industrial complex our government is sanctioning us. No money for anything that would help us.

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It is not until the tide goes out that you discover who has been swimming naked.

@wokkamile

because they come from Ben Norton, who I'm just not sure about. He says that Ukraine is a US proxy war with Russia. Problem with that is that it is Putin who started the bombing. Nice of him to comply with the US's wishes-right?

As for Biden's statement.... it came from a man who is teetering on the edge of full dementia. Not to say that there are not forces within our government who have a real wish to eliminate Putin, but if that was our goal, the CIA would have just done it years ago.

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"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

CB's picture

@Fishtroller 02
for 50 years and failed miserably despite Cuba being located in the Caribbean Sea right offshore from the US mainland. I'm sure Putin is quite safe sitting in Moscow.

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@Fishtroller 02

Are you also becoming a slinger of insults in order to make your points?

Says the guy who just called me a Putin Apologist.

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@gjohnsit

"I just don't get the apologetics for Putin." I did not call you directly a "Putin Apologist". I was referring to the general tone of apologetics for Putin that appears in just about every conversation about Ukraine here. And, I certainly didn't accuse you of having an "enthusiasm for death" which was remark directly solely to ban nock.

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"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

CB's picture

@Fishtroller 02
make you NATO and Biden "apologist".

The truth is that using 'apologist' is a derogatory term.

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snoopydawg's picture

@CB

Has replaced anti vax which is just as derogatory, but still used in crap brought in from old essays.

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It is not until the tide goes out that you discover who has been swimming naked.

@Fishtroller 02

I did not call you directly a "Putin Apologist".

Not directly, no.
You only obviously inferred it. Which isn't a whole lot different.
I'm not going to get upset about it, but I'm also not going to let you just get away with it.

I said this. And I stick by it.

You certainly seem eager for WWIII
I don't share your enthusiasm for death.

If you are cheering on a military build-up against a nuclear power, around a conflict in which the CIA has both been involved with and has boots on the ground in RIGHT NOW! Then you are knowingly or unknowingly promoting war. An extremely dangerous war.
And if you were not aware of that, then I'm doing you a favor and making you aware of that.
It's not an insult. It's a slap in the face of reality.

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@gjohnsit

He hasn't said much about it lately. So your solution then is to do nothing. Diplomacy has been tried but those talks have gone nowhere. What Putin learned from Crimea is that we and Europe will do nothing. So he went on to attack Ukraine. There is a very familiar ring about this. Do you hear it?

We live in a nuclear world. While you worry about this issue starting the nuking, I think our best bet is a sudden attack from Pakistan, or India, or even Israel. Why? Because these countries are headed by religious nuts.

Not dealing with Putin out of fear of a nuclear war just hands him and others like him the keys to the kingdom. I hate to say this because I was an active anti-war person for many years. I'm not pro war now, but I am more realistic in many ways.

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"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

CB's picture

@Fishtroller 02
of the history of the conflict that has developed in Ukraine vis-à-vis Russia since the end of WWII.

America's Ukraine Hypocrisy

Historical records show that Washington has meddled in the political affairs of dozens of countries–including many democracies.
...
A February 24, 2014, Washington Post editorial celebrated the Maidan demonstrators and their successful campaign to overthrow Yanukovych. The “moves were democratic,” the Washington Post concluded, and “Kiev is now controlled by pro-Western parties.”

It was a grotesque distortion to portray the events in Ukraine as a purely indigenous, popular uprising. The Nuland-Pyatt telephone conversation and other actions confirm that the United States was considerably more than a passive observer to the turbulence. Instead, U.S. officials were blatantly meddling in Ukraine. Such conduct was utterly improper. The United States had no right to try to orchestrate political outcomes in another country—especially one on the border of another great power. It is no wonder that Russia reacted badly to the unconstitutional ouster of an elected, pro-Russian government—an ouster that occurred not only with Washington’s blessing, but apparently with its assistance.

That episode, as well as earlier ones involving Italy, France and other democratic countries, should be kept in mind the next time U.S. political leaders or the media publicly fume about Russia’s apparent interference in America’s 2016 elections. One can legitimately condemn some aspects of Moscow’s behavior, but the force of America’s moral outrage is vitiated by the stench of U.S. hypocrisy.
...

The US has a shameful history of meddling in Ukraine

The current narrative on Russia and Ukraine is simple: Russia is big and aggressive. Ukraine is a small, harmless state just minding its own business. Russia wants to reconstitute its old Soviet empire, and Ukraine is now in its crosshairs.

But a lot more than that is going on. The U.S. spouts lots of freedom and national sovereignty talk, but in fact, it has a long history of meddling in the weak post-Soviet state, which is so corrupt that it can't get into NATO and has poisonous internal politics. For years, Ukraine has been like a cat's plaything to outside forces, and the U.S. is no stranger to it.
...
"The extent of the Obama administration's meddling in Ukraine politics was breathtaking," wrote the CATO Institute's Ted Galen Carpenter, in a clear discussion of the extent of U.S. involvement in the coup that overthrew Ukraine's President Yanukovych.

As the Biden administration now fails to resolve the ongoing crisis of Russian troops at Ukraine's border, we have come to this statement, in the U.N. Security Council, on Ukraine, from Vasily Nebenzia, Russia's permanent representative at the United Nations, as reported in the New York Times on Feb. 1, which, sad to say, is more credible that the remarks from Linda Thomas-Greenfield, the U.S. permanent representative at the U.N.

Mr. Nebenzia, in his remarks, said the United States and its Western allies had manufactured a crisis to weaken Russia and drive a wedge between it and Ukraine.

He said the United States had been behind the 2014 change of government in Ukraine that had driven a pro-Moscow leadership from power and had installed "nationalists, radicals, Russophobes and pure Nazis."
...

...
As has become the habit of the U.S. media, debate on Washington's policy towards Ukraine — and Russia — was not encouraged. The party line was: Putin bad, Ukraine must turn to the West, with a government accepting the U.S. diktat. This habit, faithful to the lamentable tradition of a controlled, not a free, press, continues...

You should watch the following documentary. (Unfortunately, your history at this site tells me you won't take the time to look or read anything that may affect your predetermined views)

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QMS's picture

@Fishtroller 02

'our best bet' is a sudden attack from Pakistan, or India, or even Israel

with regards to nuclear war
are you betting on seeing the end life on this planet?
Perhaps worst nightmare would be more sensible in this context.

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@QMS

place my nuclear bets. Geez, really?

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"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

QMS's picture

@Fishtroller 02

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@Fishtroller 02 not entirely surprising as Putin/Ru consider what was going on in UKR as an existential threat to their country. In that case, with their country's survival at stake, did you seriously expect Putin to take nukes off the table, bc he's a gentleman and gentleman leaders don't do such things?

Did Washington's boy Zelensky ever talk in recent months about getting nukes for his country?

Diplomacy? Not when puppet Zelensky is being told by Washington not to give an inch and just hold on. So, no, it hasn't really been tried, owing to the reluctance of the puppet master US.

Munich: A tiresome, over-used and abused historical analogy usually trotted out by warmongers on the Right. What Putin probably learned in the months leading up to the incursion is that UKR, according to some reports, seemed to be preparing to mass a sizable army to go into the Donbas and not just for fun military exercises. He learned, presumably, that immediate action was necessary and that failure to do so would lead to an even greater existential crisis for his country.

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@wokkamile

Munich: A tiresome, over-used and abused historical analogy usually trotted out by warmongers on the Right

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"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

@wokkamile I think you are confused. Russia invaded Ukraine, not the other way around.

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@Fishtroller 02

Putin threatened nukes early on .
He hasn't said much about it lately. So your solution then is to do nothing.

No, I didn't say that.

Diplomacy has been tried but those talks have gone nowhere.

Actually, no. It wasn't. The Biden administration flat out refused to consider the idea that Russia had security concerns of any kind.
And right now, the Biden Administration is telling Ukraine that if it even thinks of diplomacy that the U.S. will cut off all help.
So, no. I don't agree with that statement.

What Putin learned from Crimea is that we and Europe will do nothing.

We laid down huge sanction after Russia took back the historic naval base of it's Black Sea Fleet.
They were never going to let that critical naval base fall into enemy hands, anymore than the U.S. was going to let the Panama Canal fall into enemy hands.
The difference is that we could invade Panama and kill a couple thousand civilians and no one said boo!

Not dealing with Putin out of fear of a nuclear war just hands him and others like him the keys to the kingdom.

I'm guessing that we have a different idea of what "not dealing" means.

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@gjohnsit

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"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

CB's picture

@Fishtroller 02

Vladimir Putin answered journalists’ questions
June 29, 2022

In conclusion of his working visit to Turkmenistan, Vladimir Putin answered questions from media representatives.
...
Question: The NATO summit has begun with the war-mongering rhetoric. Russia has been declared a “direct threat” to the security of the Alliance. Stoltenberg admitted that NATO had been rearing for confrontation with Russia since 2014. The Prime Minister of Belgium said that Ukraine must win and that it must do this on the battlefront, which has allegedly been coordinated with the Ukrainian authorities.

How would you assess these statements? And how should we regard them?

Vladimir Putin: We should regard it as a fact. As regards their preparations for some actions against us since 2014, this information is not new to us. It explains our decisive actions to protect our interests. They have long been looking for an external enemy, for a threat that would rally their allies. I am referring above all to the United States.

Iran is not quite right for that role. Russia is much better. They see us as a chance to rally their allies in a new historical period. There is nothing new in this for us. This is fresh proof of what we have been saying all along: that NATO is a relic of the past, of the Cold War era. They always replied that NATO had changed, that it had become more of a political alliance, but at the same time they were looking for an opportunity to give it a new lease on life as a military organisation. Well, this is exactly what they are doing now. There is nothing new in this for us.

Question: What about Ukraine’s victory?

Vladimir Putin: As for Ukraine’s victory, we are aware of this as well. Ukraine conducted talks with us, sometimes better than at other times. We made certain arrangements at some point, but later they, pardon the expression, chucked them. The calls to Ukraine to continue fighting and to abandon any further negotiations reaffirm our supposition that the united West and NATO do not care for Ukraine or the interests of the Ukrainian people, and that their goal is to protect their own interests. In other words, NATO and the leading members of the alliance are using Ukraine and the Ukrainian people to reinforce their positions and their role in the world, not to reaffirm their leadership but their hegemonism in the direct meaning of the word, their imperial ambitions. This is what they want. What they have always said about their exceptionalism, the idea they tried to impress on the international community that those who are not with them are against them – all this are manifestations of the same policy. This is not new to us.

Question: Mr President, Turkey has abandoned its convictions on the issue of Sweden and Finland’s accession to NATO. Will that decision have any effect on Russia-Turkey relations? What will Russia do now, especially in light of Stoltenberg’s statement that you wanted less NATO on Russia’s borders but got the opposite: more NATO.

Vladimir Putin: I am aware of this premise, which is wrong and bears no relation to reality. Our position has always been, as I have already said during this conversation today, that NATO is a relic of the Cold War and is only being used as an instrument of US foreign policy designed to keep its client states in rein. This is its only mission. We have given them that opportunity, I understand that. They are using these arguments energetically and quite effectively to rally their so-called allies. This is the first point.

On the other hand, regarding Sweden and Finland, we do not have such problems with Sweden and Finland as we have, regrettably, with Ukraine. We do not have territorial issues or disputes with them. There is nothing that could inspire our concern regarding Finland and Sweden’s accession to NATO. If they want it, they can do it.

However, they should know that they did not face any threats before but, if military contingents and infrastructure are deployed in their territory now, we will have to take mirror-like actions and create the same threats for them that are created for us. This is obvious. Don’t they understand this? Everything was good between us before, but now there will be tension, which is obvious and certainly unavoidable if, as I have said, any threats are created for us.

As for the assumption that we were fighting against NATO approaching us through Ukraine but now have Sweden and Finland to deal with, there is no substance behind it at all, because Finland and Sweden’s NATO membership is not at all the same as the potential membership of Ukraine. These are two different things. They know this very well, but they are promoting this idea to show that Russia has received more of what it did not want to have. No, this is entirely different, and we are aware of that. And they are aware of that. They are trying to substitute these notions, to show that Russia has not attained its goals. But this will not deceive us.

If Sweden and Finland want to join NATO, let them do it. You know, there are rude jokes about stepping into unsavoury things. This is their business. Let them step into what they wish. But Ukraine is a totally different matter. They were turning Ukraine into an anti-Russia, a bridgehead for trying to stir up Russia itself. They began fighting Russian culture and the Russian language, they began to persecute those who regarded themselves part of the Russian world. There is nothing like that in Finland or Sweden; the situation is completely different. If they want to join [the bloc], they are free to do it.
...
Question: Mr President, have the goals of the special operation changed since it began? What is the current goal? Do you understand when all this will end?

Vladimir Putin: Nothing has changed, of course. I talked about it in the early morning on February 24. I talked about it directly and publicly for the entire country and the world to hear. I have nothing to add. Nothing has changed. Also back then, several days into the operation, I said that the tactics may be different, the tactics proposed by the Defence Ministry and the General Staff, with respect to where the troops must move and what targets must be hit, what must be achieved when several groups entered central Ukraine and what must be achieved in Donbass. The Kiev regime had been preparing for that for a long time, since 2014. Therefore, we needed to take certain action to distract them.

Yes, I am the Supreme Commander-in-Chief, but I have not graduated from the Military Academy of the General Staff. I trust professionals. They are doing what they consider necessary to attain the overall goal. I have formulated the overall goal, which is to liberate Donbass, protect its people and create conditions that will guarantee the security of Russia itself. That is all. We are working calmly and steadily. As you can see, our forces are moving forward and attaining the objectives that have been set for the particular period of the engagement. We are proceeding according to plan.

We are not speaking about any deadlines. I never speak about them, because this is life, this is reality. It would be wrong to make things fit any framework, because, as I have already said, the issue concerns combat intensity, which is directly connected with possible losses. And we must think above all about saving our guys’ lives.
...

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And practice duck and cover.

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janis b's picture

he knows is objectionable to almost everyone here. It creeps me out that he finds pleasure in this behaviour. I for one will not respond, and by ignoring him hope he slithers away.

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@janis b I'm working but respond in the evenings. What I don't respond to is crazy assertions, long comments etc. If I can respond in a couple minutes, great, longer is too much of a time suck. Ultimately I'm providing the headlines of the day re the war in Ukraine. Am I posting anything that isn't true? Of course not. If you don't like it, don't read.

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CB's picture

@ban nock

What I don't respond to is crazy assertions, long comments etc. If I can respond in a couple minutes, great, longer is too much of a time suck.

Maybe you can handle an 8 second video response to your diary?.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

@CB

...In person. And on the phone.

It was the first time I fully realized, and could accept, that I was speaking to algorithms — rather than humans. They are void in executive functions... they can only loop back through their instruction set. Of course, they sound human and look human. They understand what I am saying and are very good at misinterpreting my words to mean something different — something they can respond to with their pre-loaded base instructions. Like all algorithms, they have no nuance or fuzzy logic.

(I am excluding artificial Intelligence and humans without brain damage — which are both high functioning — from this description. It dawned on me that I could actually become friendly with an artificial intelligence, especially in these latter days. We may both live long enough to discover that artificial intelligence is a step above — for us — the available minds in the common population.)

Another thing I realized is that it is imperative for me to remove all emotion when dealing with algorithmic humans. Feelings of frustration, anger, or love or even pity can generate toxic neurological overstimulation in my brain, with no immediate uptake. This toxic brain-brine can suppress higher level thinking and problem-solving. These units just look and sound so human.... it's too easy to forget what one is dealing with.

This, however, does answer a more important question: Why are these pre-programmed people not simply replaced by automated electronics? Automated systems could do the job even better and they require no wages (beyond the cost to build them). I now believe it's because their apparent humanness disarms us. We do use an arms-length-defense when speaking to something that is obviously automated. But when automated functions are programmed into a human being, our defenses are just not there. We mistakenly assume these humans possess normal reasoning skills and empathetic instincts that they employ in their thought processes. Thus, we might even blame them for the adversity they generate — rather than blaming the corporation that created them. This is the desired response. If we believe our requests are opposed by a culture of fully functional humans, instead of robots, we will begin to question ourselves and judge our instincts and expectations as flawed.

I've read this type of conditioning was developed in studies involving prisoners held in solitary confinement, like Julian Assange. The constant repetitions of false narratives will eventually cause the prisoner to doubt his own experiences.. He will begin to question his recollections and eventually accept that his actions and intentions harmed society in significant ways. This is how the human programmers defeat the integrity of the mind.

The minds inside this isolated colony have been defeated by the constant repetition of self-referencing misinformation by the nation's media monopolies. These lies and accusations of crimes are always un-supported by physical evidence. The false information is always sourced to "unnamed officials" and "Insiders who wish to remain anonymous." They are immediately reinforced by "experts" or "former officials" who are interviewed on news programs and quoted in newspapers. For months on end, the lies are methodically embedded using Identical phrasing flare across all media. Later on, the manufactured lies and smears become adjectives that are attached to the event whenever it is mentioned. Americans rely on beliefs, not facts. The people are politically dysfunctional and divided. Nationally, they have limited, unsatisfactory voting choices, and little influence. Except for lip service during political campaigns, the People's stated interests and priorities are routinely ignored.

The regressive political atmosphere in the US seems to be tied in with America's twisted form of Christianity, which is allowed to operate and flourish politically. It penetrates the government both the State and Federal level. Religious pressure and extortion has scandalized and corrupted the government at every level. Even the United State's constitution and the rule of law have been repeatedly defiled by religious influence.. "In God We Trust" is the poisoned pill and the fundamental brainwashing that US children receive. They are told "God is on our side" so Americans have permission to roam the world killing people in other countries. "God says when America kills, it's a good thing." How contaminated are the minds of Americans? If a wise, un-compromised leader was known to be a non-believer in America's superstitious form of Christianity, he could never be elected to high office.

Those who manage to escape the effects of this brain-wiped culture are those who retreat from it. They are retreating right now. They may come together outside the United States, as expats, but they are not a counter-movement. They just want out. Those who stick around and oppose the totalitarian empire will eventually succumb to the immoral narrative — one-by-one — as they have done since the 1970s, after its evil was fully exposed. Many people simply withdraw from political or civic society in the US, rarely voting and living as invisibly as possible in the surveillance state.

You are discussing with a human algorithm — a tightly focused violent event that has emerged from a lengthy, deeply interwoven, unresolved and untenable situation that was established seven decades ago, and frequently violated along the way. I hope you don't invest more of your energy with someone who thinks this conflict was born three months ago — and who believes it is Putin's intention to seize control over the world with his rather small regimen of soldiers and a couple of tanks. These programmed units do not possess normal intellectual functions and they can operate only within a narrow range of variables — particularly when discussing significant MIC matters that have life and death consequences.

The automation and social engineering of the Internet has spilled into the real world. It is animated by those who have succumbed to the government/media gaslighting and re-programming. Their processing deficits defy logic and make normal, rational conversations impossible. For algorithm units, any response is TL;DR. There are too many intellectual disconnects to get into here. Suffice to say, if the majority of the world were afflicted with this preemptive stunting mechanism, I'd call it an extinction event.

[edit = typos]

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____________________
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
— Voltaire

snoopydawg's picture

@ban nock

Am I posting anything that isn't true?

If you bothered reading comments you’d see that so why are you posting propaganda that’s been so easily debunked?

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13 users have voted.

It is not until the tide goes out that you discover who has been swimming naked.

@janis b "slithers away."

ad hom

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Pricknick's picture

@ban nock
Don't be a dick.

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13 users have voted.

Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.

@Pricknick

But fail to see that he is being a dick here.

Arguably, *duped* on the matter at hand...

BN - if you didn't see the essay Linda Wood posted the other day with an article by
Paul Craig Roberts (from Counterpunch, 2014) I'd suggest giving it a look. You'll have learned more in 10 or 15 minutes from that about the Ukraine situation than 90 percent of people know after being bombarded for months with warmongering MSM propaganda.

See also the excellent, on the ground reporting (Youtube or Rumble) by Patrick Lancaster - there's also this (if you want to see what a *real* white-supremacist violent insurrection looks like)

Roses Have Thorns (2014)

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@Blue Republic I mostly go in for straight news these days and skip opinion. Counterpunch can of course vary depending on who the writer is but generally they score pretty low on being factual and way out in left field for bias. Their equivalent on the right would be World Net Daily or The Blaze.

https://adfontesmedia.com/interactive-media-bias-chart/

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CB's picture

@ban nock
it's no wonder that you are so ill informed.

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@ban nock

these days is extremely lame, from what I hear - but that was not always the case. The article that Linda Wood posted is from eight years ago, though. More importantly, it's by Paul Craig Roberts who (unfashionably) is not just opinion but really well *informed* opinion. And it explicates pretty well how the US - under the Obama administration was responsible for precipitating the disastrous situation there now.

Here's that link:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/28/moving-closer-to-war/

More *information* could also be found in gjohnsit's recent essay about Ukraine's banning (and worse) of (mostly Leftist) opposition parties.

As others have pointed out - you simply can't be well-informed about this stuff relying on MSM sources exclusively. They are not there to bring people the news, but to mold opinion.

"What people want, mainly, is to be told by some plausible authority that what they are already doing is right. I don't know of a quicker way to become unpopular than to disagree."

Professor Xavier Conroy in
John Brunner's "The Jagged Orbit" (1969)

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@janis b

rejects opinions that don't fall in line with the majority here. Do you see the irony in this?

And the insult about slithering.... that's really impressive.

You know, there are some people who find Putin's attack on Ukraine totally disgusting, immoral, illegal and chock full of war crimes. If you don't see it that way, fine, but please don't fall into the hole of righteousness of opinion that seems to rear its ugly head here so often.

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"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

CB's picture

@Fishtroller 02 @Fishtroller 02
to show that the current conflict did not originate with Putin invading Ukraine on February 24, 2022. It has become painfully obvious that you refuse to acknowledge the historical roots of this conflict.

I also notice that you use ad hominem attacks to make your points rather than reasoned arguments:

You know, there are some people who find Putin's attack on Ukraine totally disgusting, immoral, illegal and chock full of war crimes. If you don't see it that way, fine, but please don't fall into the hole of righteousness of opinion that seems to rear its ugly head here so often.

Did you find that American leaders from both sides of the house who have attacked other countries in the past to also be "disgusting, immoral, illegal and chock full of war crimes"?

BTW, how many of these countries that the US has previously attacked had significant populations of American citizens that were being killed and displaced during the previous eight years as was done to Russians in Ukraine?

Do you even know what has occurred in Ukraine since the US created the conditions for the violent overthrow of their elected government in 2014? How many different political parties and media are legal in Ukraine? The answer is only ONE - the US backed and supported Victor Yelensky. Do you consider that a real democracy?

The entire raison d'être for NATO's existence since the demise of the USSR is the destruction of Russia. Fortunately for Russia, Putin has pulled the country back from the abyss since he was elected in 2020.

How much has the US militarily interfered in the country since the coup in 2014?

"NATO has been preparing for this for a long time, not that we realized on February 24 that Russia is dangerous. The reality is that we have been preparing for this since 2014. Therefore, we strengthened our military presence in the east of the alliance and NATO began to invest more money in defense." - NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg June 29,2022

All of these points have been discussed here but you have yet to acknowledge any of this here in C99%. It seems your mind is made up and is closed to any other opinions or facts.

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@Fishtroller 02

rejects opinions that don't fall in line with the majority

The vast majority of America supports doing things that risk nuclear war with Russia.

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7 users have voted.

Stay safe and happy in New Zealand. I got this East Texas Piney Woods down pat.
Interesting why the poster popped in, huh?

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12 users have voted.
shaharazade's picture

Go away.You suck. Your a troll. An obnoxious one. Why are you here? Enough with the Russians did it. Yeah they did everything including siccing the Nazis and NATO in the Ukraine to do the nasty on both Russia and any nation state the objects to this bs. Oh yeah we love NATO. Lets get every country signed up and ready to fight the evil Russians. Gimmie a break how stupid do you think people are. As stupid as the bs propaganda you pump out? Hope not or we are doomed to live in your nightmare world.

do

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13 users have voted.

@shaharazade

Are the one being obnoxious here. BN is simply (IMHO) being wrong - as we all are once in a while.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

@Blue Republic

...flying under the radar here?

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8 users have voted.

____________________
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
— Voltaire

@Pluto's Republic

that you think I am trying to conceal or misrepresent something.

What exactly do you think that is? If you've got any indication at all
that I'm here in other than good faith then don't be shy, by all means
share it with the group.

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3 users have voted.

@shaharazade

the personal insults?

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2 users have voted.

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

@shaharazade
You are violating the one rule.

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3 users have voted.
janis b's picture

@gjohnsit

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3 users have voted.
CB's picture

for you to consider from John Mearsheimer to counter your diary: Ukraine was not in NATO, but NATO was in Ukraine since 2014 (2:20)

300,000 troops all equipped with the most modern aircraft, armor, etc. would more than likely be enough to deter Russia from further invasions.

That force would take well over a year to assemble. Just look how long it took to prepare for the Iraq invasion! Russia is not Iraq with ancient WWII military equipment. BTW, the NATO countries could not agree as to the makeup of the forces and would argue among themselves. By this time, Ukraine will be dismembered, posing no further threat to Russia.

For your information, the US backed NATO no longer has the "most modern" military defence. The US still doesn't have hyper sonic weapons. Putin's Russia is well prepared for whatever the decrepit NATO decides to throw at it:

If you want more detailed information on the Sarmat:

SARMAT. Episode 1 / First flight
Premiered May 22, 2022

35 meters in length, 3 in diameter. Its weight is more than two hundred tons! The figures are approximate. The details are classified. This object is the most dangerous and most powerful weapon on the planet.
It demonstrated its capabilities for the first time on April 20, 2022.
Well, the long-awaited moment has come. The film crew of our program turned out to be one of those few who were given the right to see the missile launch with their own eyes, to get it on video and not only it.

SARMAT. Episode 2 / Rocket secret
Premiered May 29, 2022

We have been in those secret workshops where it is collected, and we saw how it was being prepared for launch. We followed its test operations and went to see the launch. The launch, which is expected today. It is if not historical, then certainly significant. And these are our cameras that recorded the footage which has spread all over the world. But this was only the beginning of the trilogy of Combat Approved about the largest and most powerful of the combat missiles ever created by mankind.

Its name is Sarmat and, of course, it is a record-breaking missile among combat missiles. It has a height of a 14-storey building, a diameter of 3 meters, a weight of 200 tons. It is, of course, incredible luck to see such a huge thing with your own eyes. Believe me, no one will show you much of what you will see in this series, except for Combat Approved.

So, today the second series of our trilogy awaits you. And if in the first one we focused on the first full-fledged flight of Sarmat, to which our military science had been going for almost ten years, then in this, the second one, we will try to figure out how this giant missile works.

SARMAT. Episode 3. Sarmat and Avangard
Premiered Jun 5, 2022

This footage is being shown on internet for the first time. The tower in the middle of the steppe is one of the newest missile complexes of modern Russia – "Avangard". Hypersonic weapon of a new generation, which has been talked about a lot around the world in recent years. Today we will show this complex as close as it is allowed. But still, it will be the second hero of our film. The first one is still "Sarmat". Title of the program: "Sarmat". Part 3. "Sarmat" and "Avangard".

So we continue the trilogy about the most powerful weapon ever created by mankind. In third part it’s high time we understood what the place of "Sarmat" in the structure of the Russian Strategic Missile Forces [RVSN] is. Who will control the new missile complex, where will these missiles stand, how will they be used, how will they be guarded? And, finally, what does the hypersonic "Avangard" have to do with it? The answers to these questions will be right now in Combat Approved.

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14 users have voted.

opinion, the constant personal insults and the ganging up on those who had other opinions at Daily Kos. Unfortunately, this thread of comments seems to indicate that I just jumped from the frying pan into the fire.
If you all can't see that, then it's just plain sad. Or maybe it is just what happens when people gather on any opinion site.

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4 users have voted.

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

@Fishtroller 02

agree.

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3 users have voted.
CB's picture

@Fishtroller 02
on Russia and the COVID plandemic would be quite welcome at Daily Kos - they are a perfect match.

Maybe that is why you get so much push-back here?

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11 users have voted.
dystopian's picture

Just a few quick thoughts... my dos centavos.

It seems to me like the OP is merely repeating all of the MSM/see-eye-eh deep state talking points, nearly verbatim. It is as if he is one with them. Is it willful to stir shat? Intent is everything. Is it innocent naivete'? Purity of intent is everything.

His talking points come from the Iraq WMD people, the Russiagate people, the Assad used gas people, the White Hats are good guys and Assange is bad, people, etc. He regurgitates it very well, sounds just like 'em. I quit watching TV to get away from it.

He has stated he is not able to get more than a couple minutes into anything. Which should explain most of what you need to know. In other words, he is on sound bytes. That is why OP sounds like MSM sound bytes. He on them, he is taking them, I can tell. Wink I think he is taking too many and may be addicted? He reminds me of my brother, believes anything that comes out of the boob tube. Often the authoritarian loves the authorities.

The most unfortunate part is that virtually every claim he has made has been debunked multiple times with multiple sources here, more than extensively. Stellarly. He has ignored it all, to spew msm propaganda, to save us I suppose. All the factual thorough verified proven data here has had no impact on him, or those that are addicted to the msm soundbyte koolaid, like my bro. Obviously talking reason and logic doesn't work. A mountain of evidence is willfully ignored, which is why it is often called willful ignorance. Cognitive dissonance precludes upsetting the apple cart of their beliefs.

I would have guessed the copious documentation here at this site that shows most of what he is saying to be propaganda, would have been more effective in helping others to understand. But you had to have watched the discussions, studied it, done the research, and used the resources provided here by all the great posters all the time. If you think the MSM is a good info source, how can you be informed?

There is no cure for the closed mind. You can lead a horse to water...

be well all

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20 users have voted.

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better.
both - Albert Einstein

@dystopian
.

Nevertheless, arguing about arguing is the single most tedious and useless mode of discussion on internet message boards.

As I stated about that "character" a little over a month ago:
=================================================

.

Yes, western liberal democracies don't allow commy dictators to take over adjoining countries. Duh. And when tyrants like Putin attack their own countrymen for years and then expand their vision to include eastern Europe they are lucky not to be nuked. Don't like the news, stop reading, there are adults considering serious issues. Watch TV or something.

.
I'll let your words speak for themselves. There is a rule here against giving the kind of reply your post deserves.

Meanwhile, while not forgetting that the commys no longer run Russia, I have to disagree with your value judgment about high priced gasoline. Some folks really cannot walk to work, among many other problems with your ideological position. But at least that is debatable.

Thanks for posting. I hope lots of people read your thoughts. Or whatever it was that induced your idea about anybody being "lucky" to avoid being "nuked."

I oppose censorship in all forms. Your post is the perfect example of why.
==========================================================
.

I neither know nor care what the personal story of the human being who types this silliness might be. I am just glad to see such embarassing crap in support of the Coward's War that we are "fighting" against Russia with two and only two weapons: Hot Air and Other People's Blood. There is no way to put lipstick on this pig, the looniest shit ever.

So Cheap Snark is all this character has at its disposal, and I do not want it to slither way. I want it keep shit like "Commy" and "lucky not to be nuked" in front of as many actual human beings as possible.

It gives the stupid game away.

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I cried when I wrote this song. Sue me if I play too long.

QMS's picture

@fire with fire

what does it matter who pushed who when extinguishment of life on the planet is at stake?
There are many here among us that would prefer to settle disputes without the nuclear option.
If the future of our 'civilization' depends on who controls the world, perhaps the self appointed
gods of the universe should back away from their ambitions. The unipolar fantasy may be
enriching for a few sociopaths, maybe, but the consequences of such envious greed is too
gruesome to contemplate for the sane majority of people. MAD* proves only that there should not
be that power available to any regime.

* There are two defining characteristics of the doctrine of Mutual Assured Destruction. One, each side must have the nuclear capability to wipe out the other. And two, each side must be convinced the other has the nerve to launch a nuclear strike.

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@dystopian

Is it somewhere on this site? Exactly which sites are considered MSM and which are not? If we learned anything from the good old days of The Dose, it's that many sources used by those pushing "accepted" opinions on this site came directly from and were quoted directly from right wing anti-vax, anti-science sites like the one run by RFK Jr, who has been exposed many times for posting totally debunked claims about vaccines. Arguments, which I admit I participated in, became only over who was using the right sources rather than plain facts. I check sources and links here still, and I can tell you that much of what is popping up in the Ukraine discussions comes from highly questionable sources that make the MSM look puritan. But I've given up on pointing that out.

If people don't like ban nock's OPs, then ignore them, don't comment on them and don't argue on them. It's the easiest and most fair way to discourage OPs that people don't want on this site.

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2 users have voted.

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

dystopian's picture

@Fishtroller 02 I agree with your last statement, and violated my own better judgement chiming in on this one. I don't have the time. I'd rather be trolling for fish! Smile Sorry I do not have a MSM list, nor would the site methinks.

In general I would say the legacy media would qualify for MSM status. Print or broadcast. Also the modern day equivalent in the way of the social media majors that engage in routine censorship of any ideas/stories that are not DC think tank and alphabet agency approved.

I guess we could have a litmus test. Any media that has cheerleaded for or dissed opposition of the last 6 undeclared wars is MSM. Any media that promoted that Iraq had WMD or Saddam Hussein was connected to Al Quaeda is MSM. Any media that promoted Russiagate are MSM. After the White Hats staged a false flag chemical attack and blamed Assad, followed by Trump launching 200 $100,000 missiles, they are MSM if they said "tonight Trump became Presidential", for an illegal unprovoked attack on another soverign nation. Did they say wikileaks or Julian Assange had hacked materials? MSM. Did they black out Bernie whilst promoting Trump per DNC Team Clinton instructions? They are MSM.

If they say "Putins ruthless invasion" without mentioning the 11,000 dead in Donestk at Ukranian hands, the thousands of artillerty rounds fired in the two weeks prior to Putin's arrival *at the request of the ethnically and liguistically Russian residents who were guaranteed autonomy*, without mentioning the US and NATO ingnoring Minsk, while supplying weapons and training, they are MSM, or brainwashed by them.
If you think freeing Crimea is a thing, despite Crimea voting to be BACK in Russia where they belong, you are the MSM or brainwashed by them.

The MSM are the standard propagandists and presstitutes regurgitating talking points from the alphabet agencies and inside the belt DC think tanks. Did they say chairs were thrown by Bernie Bros at the Nevada primary? They are MSM. Do they have ciafbi talking heads on payroll? They are MSM. Last study I saw that showed numbers, I think at FAIR, indicated MSNBC and FOX both very close at around 57% or so factually verifiably true. Psychologists I think have long said the liar has to tell the truth just a little bit more than half the time to be believed. The MSM seems to know this as virtually none of their numbers were in the high 60% truthful factual range. Obviously this is not their goal. It is to be just honest enough, with the meaningless stuff, that you believe their BS on the big things.

fortunately I will be too busy working the rest of the day...

be well all!

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8 users have voted.

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better.
both - Albert Einstein

@dystopian That was just a brilliant comment, pal.

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dystopian's picture

@on the cusp Thanks so much... yeah, well your comment made my day! Smile grazie mille!

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1 user has voted.

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better.
both - Albert Einstein

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