US Aircraft Carrier in Stockholm Sweden
Technically an amphibious assault craft it carries all kinds of helicopters, oodles of vertical take off Ospreys and stealth fighter aircraft.
Sweden and Norway, formerly neutral countries want to join nato, frigging Denmark is sending arms, Germany doubling its defence budget. I think Hungary is the only holdout. Putin the guy who blows up apartments full of Russians has done one good thing, Europe is United.
Ukraine will take back all the land the Soviets have tried to steal, the only question is how long it will take.
Just a reminder... When the Ukraine govt refused to closer ties with Europe in 2013, against the wishes of the people, they ousted the PM, and formed a new government. Russia has been importing citizens to Eastern Ukraine for generations, and a small revolt against Ukraine by these citizens was supported by the Communist Army without markings on tanks or insignia on uniforms in 2014. The Communists stole parts of eastern Ukraine, Crimea, and like all of similar thugs they weren't content to take part of a country, so they invaded the rest trying to take the capital.
The Communists are now fairly isolated, they either have or are about to go into default on their sovereign debt. Ukraine is modernising it's army, training recruits, and shipping supplies from the US and Europe. Russia has lots of dumb bombs, and is using them. Russian units that are supposed to have a thousand men are operating with 150, they still don't have air superiority, and Ukrainians are being trained on much more modern equipment. It's now a question of who can bring the best equipment and munitions to the war the fastest. Of course there is also the fact that the Ukrainians are fighting for their freedom and their country, where as the Russian soldiers are fighting for .... nothing.
Just by putting an aircraft carrier in Sweden, the US is causing Russia to keep some parts of it's army in the Baltics. Currently Russia's best front line troops are fighting in Ukraine, and not making much progress, at some time in the not too distant future they might well be used up, and it will be like the siege of Kiev again. Massive losses of men and material. And will they be able to hold out in Crimea?
Comments
I guess you are serious in your armchair warrior stance
I don't see it that way, but that is OK.
If you think NATO is the way to go
then by all means your argument makes
some sense. Personally, I think this is a battle
to the death of the unipolar world. There are other
opinions afoot. Like those of Russia, China, South
and Central America, Africa, Asean nations and independent
nations in the the mid-east, eastern europe and Iceland
that would argue differently (maybe 4 billion people).
But hey, might makes right?
question everything
@QMS I'd sure like to hear
I'd sure like to hear opinion from people actually fighting in Ukraine. Other than that I'd guess we are all armchair pundits.
User “jbnw” at JackPine Radicals has wife / immediate family
from Ukraine and has lived in Ukraine. User “GZeusH” there also seems to have some direct connection / experience.
https://jackpineradicals.com/members/jbnw/
https://jackpineradicals.com/members/gzeush/
I know jbnw personally
He has never lived in Ukraine, he visited it a couple of times as a tourist. Similarly, he has never lived with his "wife". He visited Ukraine to marry her less than a year ago. Otherwise, they know each other only online. Moreover, she has very pro-Russian views, and he once proudly told me he is going to support only those views that agree with his wife. He likes exaggerating the reality to the point it becomes a false narrative. He once even "quoted" me as his source of information about Russian army, saying that he has a Russian friend, who served in Russian military and who told him that Russian army is very efficient. That was an outrageous distortion of the facts. I have a military rank, but I've never served, I got the rank 25 years ago while studying physics in the University, after finishing a couple of courses. That was actually a way to avoid serving in the military, so I have zero expertise about the effectiveness of the Russian army. And he knew that! I also have never said anything about the effectiveness of the army, I said that Russian army has an advantage of effective logistic, and I quoted a NATO general I heard on the news. The bottom line: I would never believe anything jbnw said on Jackpine Radicals.
I spit beer all over my keyboard when I saw this tag...
"Soviet invasion of Ukraine".
Those darn Soviets are probably bluffing about this too, right?
@JtC I like calling them
I like calling them Commies too. My wife is from a former Soviet aligned country (one of 5 remaining official communist countries), and she calls Russia communist, they act like it.
"They act like it"...
How so?
@JtC The deportations of
The deportations of large segments of the population is a pretty good starter. Understanding communism as a way of controlling a country, like Vietnam, China, and Laos, not an economic idea. Jailing people for speaking up, using up a few hundred soldiers a day and thinking nothing of the deaths, but best of all I really appreciate Putin's murder of Russians and blaming it on Chechens then blatantly murdering anyone who objects, now that is real communism. One thing I noticed living in communist countries is that being totally ruthless without regard to how anyone might dislike it makes one feared and obeyed. I'm not sure if arresting and having a trial is sometimes not as effective as disappearing them. They used to load people on trucks with signs and their crimes around their necks and drive them through the streets of Yunnan on the way to execution at the stadium. Usually drugs. A couple thousand a year but I doubt they kept count. They'd kneel them over and put a shot to the back of their neck I heard, I've no interest in seeing some poor smuggler executed.
I'm sure Putin would love to do the same in Ukraine, call them Nazis.
Let me ask this of you...
take your blinders off and reread what you just wrote. Much of what you wrote is mirrored by the west and more specifically the US. Communism is an economic system, what you describe is tyranny. There's plenty of that going around, don't you agree?
When the sanctions were imposed on Russia what did they do? They found new markets with other countries and now their economy is booming. That is capitalism in action, my friend.
@JtC Russian expat
Russian expat here. My friends and relatives back in Russia would be surprised to hear that Russian economy is booming. It's not collapsed, that's true. Mostly because Russia continue to export fossil fuels in volumes enough to support the economy afloat. The ban on import of Russian oil imposed by EU will start on December 5 this year.
A quote comes to mind.
“Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.”
— ABRAHAM LINCOLN.
Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.
Also attributed to Voltaire, Mark Twain and the Usual Suspects
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Agreed.
Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.
Lol…sure they will
With what army? Unless NATO goes in and helps them it ain’t going to happen. Geez where are you getting your propaganda from? I can recommend some good sites if you want to know the truth about what’s happening there.
ETA this link from Yves Smith and it’s a reality checker for you.
The mainstream media won’t post when lots of Ukraine troops surrender because they are out of ammunition and other supplies. Biden’s using Ukrainians as cannon fodder and it’s killing lots of men for no reason. One day the media will have to admit that Ukraine lost the war. A few are already saying that it doesn’t look good for Ukraine.
Was Humpty Dumpty pushed?
Is this satire?
Must be.
Quite an effort to have the Kearsarge enter the harbor
at Stockholm for the publicity prior to the war games.
Close up view
Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.
An actual Communist view of the Ukraine War.
On the In Defense of Communism website, I encountered the following viewpoint of the Ukraine War:
source
Or, as Shahryar put it so well:
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
At least the website recognizes Russia
is capitalist. Seems lots of people do not understand that, so maybe a communist could mansplain it to them.
And don't get me started on Soviets when there is no such this as a Soviet anything anymore on the globe.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
@thanatokephaloides Having known many actual
Having known many actual communist party members in communist countries I have to wonder if the writer is one, or a wannabe.
I hope Turkey holds strong
denying NATO membership to Sweden and Finland. We'll know in a month.
You might want to watch Stone's Ukraine on fire to understand the set up of the current war...
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Who knew Turkey would come out as the hero in this fight?
I know they have issues with Greece. OK
But to have the cajones to challenge the EU and NATO
speaks volumes of their sincere desire to set the world
straight. Somebody gotta do it ..
question everything
They may just be threatening ...
in order to bribe the NATO countries. Their demands include removing Kurdish members of the Scandinavian parliaments, which I suspect won't happen...so maybe it will work. They are taking over some of Syria much to the US dismay. We'll have to wait and see if they hold the veto line. I sure hope so.
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Turkey, a "hero" country?
They have lost their democratic secularism to political Islam. I sure wouldn't give them a thumbs up for their behavior.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/08/modi-erdogan-r...
Of course, if the Christian nationalists in the US keep plowing ahead and taking over our government and judiciary, we will be in good company with Erdogan and Modi.
I personally understand and applaud the expansion of NATO. (Now watch as the local bombing companies swoop in).
"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin
of course you are entitled to your opinion
as I am to mine
having said that, what you probably missed
was the fact that Turkey has the veto power
to stop a steamroller over other countries'
sovereignty by NATO/EU/US.
IMO what we do not need is a one world government
dictated by warmongers in pursuit of resources for
the benefit of a few greedy rich folks while the rest of us
starve and suffer the consequences.
What is it that prevents you from recognizing this?
question everything
There is nothing that prevents me from recognizing
your opinion, which seems to have settled on one particular idea. There are many scenarios about possible future world situations that concern me, especially for their potential effect on my grandchildren's lives. There are so many other ways the world could go. I really don't think a one world government is very probable, but never say never.
"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin
Cool
This is only one opinion in a world of multiple viewpoints.
Hope your grand children can have that freedom.
question everything
@Lookout I always watch vids to
I always watch vids to understand things, because I can't read.
If you can't read
how do you know what your writing?
I'm great at multi-tasking. I can waste time, be unproductive, and procrastinate all at the same time.
We sit back in our armchairs watching nightly scenes
of Ukrainians weeping for their country, their homes, their children, their dead, their future, and we "analyze" and argue whether Putin and Russia have a good reason for what they are doing.
Kind of like the Republican gun lovers who sit back and watch children in our own country being massacred in their school classrooms and argue about whether assault rifles and semi-automatic weapons should be banned.
"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin
too bad we don't see the sick and starving children in Yemen
Nor Syria, nor Libya, nor Iraq, nor Afghanistan (whose national wealth we are hording), etc. We inflect far more horrors. Just saying we need more mirror time before accosting others.
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Nor the genocided
Ukrainians who were of Russian descent in Donbass, Crimea, who weren't allowed to vote, to work, to own property, and were often killed in the streets.
Now, Israel just announced the right to self defense over the specter of Iran getting nukes. Bet the US government fully supports that. But when Russia does it, it is bad. Very bad.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Speaking of rounding up people and executing them
Our good allies the Saudis recently be headed 81 political prisoners and soon they are going to execute a child.
Our dear Gina Haspel who was the head of the CIA got her rocks off by watching prisoners being tortured. Obama causally admitted that yes indeed we tortured some folks, but then he moved on.
Again Americans should buy a fcking mirror and see what their own government is doing. But I guess it’s more fun to make up stories about other country’s leaders.
Was Humpty Dumpty pushed?
Foreign leaders
who are kicking our ass in the economic sense, to be more specific.
It is ironic that capitalism took off so swiftly in Russia, remaining regulated, causing such an economic lift in the country's population, when we have been capitalistic from the start, and have ruined it with destructive economic inequality the likes the world has never seen.
We can overlook those beheadings, the treatment of women, and executing kids in Saudi, if they will stay with the petrodollar.
We like treasure, can't be bothered with decency and morality.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Update:
We did today announce we were fully supportive of Israel in their stance against Iran.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Well, yes, we don't pay enough attention to all
the other areas of the world suffering from atrocities. However, the topic was Ukraine, and therefore that's what I focused on.
"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin
Just republican gun lovers huh?
Pelosi, Clyburn and other centrist democrats just got Cueller re-elected even though he’s anti abortion and pro NRA. Other centrist democrats have blocked democrats for decades to pass legislation that would help the poor and working class. Funny how McConnell can pass everything he wants, but Schumer can’t for some reason. Pelosi gave Trump everything he asked for, but has been working against us her entire career. Gosh darn republicans!
Was Humpty Dumpty pushed?
In my area, there are only Republicans, so that's what I
was referring to. We don't even have any Dems running for office in my town and county.
You needn't lecture me on Democrats. I'm well aware of their uselessness.
"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin
Wit and Wisdom From Ban Nock
Not that I care, but this violates the DBAD rule. Of only minimal interest is the extraordinary amount of error packed into such a small passage.
.
Western liberal democracies did allow a commy dictator named Stalin to take over all of eastern Europe in 1945.
Commy is misspelled, I hope for comic effect rather than illiteracy, as I suspect the comment on this thread claiming an inability to read was a joke.
"Tyrants like Putin." So now there is a category of Putin Tyrants? No there isn't. This contradicts its own spin, implying that this is not a unique problem involving Ukraine.
"attack their own countrymen" What the fuck is that supposed to mean?
"expand their vision to include Eastern Europe" This example of mind reading is hilarious. It is never supported by a shred of evidence, and is contradicted by all the available evidence. Yet trumpeted with the Chip on Shoulder Attitude you see here.
The Big Banana of Looniness:
they are lucky not to be nuked. You know who is lucky that Putin has not been nuked? Ban Nock, and everybody else on the planet. This "character" is in love with the aircraft carrier and its oodles of killing stuff. Ooooh. How macho.
And the final two sentences are just snark without a touch of wit.
.
In short -- this is not serious argumentation. There is another word for it, isn't there?
I cried when I wrote this song. Sue me if I play too long.
Well said
This is just as our there as the rest.
Maybe if people hadn’t just heard what the mainstream media has told them they’d understand why Russia decided to start their military operation when they did and would know what lengths Russia tried to stop it from happening. Enough of us have brought the information here so I’m not going to repeat it for those who won’t listen. It’s just stunning how people willingly accept the government propaganda talking points after they lied about so many other things including the Iraq war and Saddam having WMDs. Obama had to go into Libya because Gaddaffi was handling out viagra so the troops could rape women and children just like we’re being told Russia is doing. Funny how they don’t remember our heinous acts in Vietnam, but there’s that mirror thing again.
Was Humpty Dumpty pushed?
Oh, i don't think anything here violates the DBAD rule.
Telling people THIS, however, might qualify..."For those in the back of the bus that refuse to understand
why Russia acted when they did."
So, are we going to continue questioning the intelligence of people that post here just because they have a different view of certain issues?
"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin
Interesting Qustion
.
As I stated to Ban Nock, I am opposed to censorship, period. When I was the owner of a message board many years ago, we would not have banned either of these comments:
Don't like the news, stop reading, there are adults considering serious issues. Watch TV or something.
.
."For those in the back of the bus that refuse to understand why Russia acted when they did."
.
Both comments are snarky and condescending. Whether either violates the Caucus 99 Don't Be A Dick rule is not for me to decide. If asked my opinion, I would say that both are dickish comments. Neither has any substance and neither is intended to persuade or convince -- just snark.
One difference between the two is that there is a long past of badinage between you and Snoopy and that Ban Nock mot came from nowhere.
I repeat that I appreciate your contributions to the board. I have no idea what the human being typing the Fishtroller words here is like or what your motivations are. I regard that as none of my fucking business. Going only by what is written on the screens here, you make actual arguments. I do not happen to agree with most of them, but I do not want a message board to be an echo chamber.
In contrast to your arguments, there is unbuttered bullshit which we have all seen on the internet before. I do not want to censor it, just to point to its cheap disruption.
================
The obvious goal of the "propaganda war" is to funnel all public discussion of the war between Russia and Ukraine into a dispute over factoids. This obliges people who believe the Government's story is a pack of absurd lies to explain the situation from the point of view of Russia and its chief of state. Thus you "defend Putin" and get your "information" from pro-Putin sources.
Propagandists have accomplished their goal. You put yourself on the Other Side.
I suggest that focusing on the US rather than Russia makes more sense and will be a far better political argument within the USA. The "sanctions" are bad policy. It does not matter how bad Putin is. It does not matter if "he" is going to expand his vision to take over all of Europe as Ban Nock so inarticulately alleges -- these idiotic sanctions will not affect him in the slightest.
In fact, if Putin really were bent on world conquest, the USA's ritual economic suicide is the best conceivable thing that could happen for his Hitlerian dream of conquest.
Unable to defend such a stupid strategy, the propaganda follows the age old pattern of Binary Thinking. Us Good. Him Bad.
I cried when I wrote this song. Sue me if I play too long.
The difference between the two quotes I cited is that
one source was called out for it, and the other never gets called out for it because it is a favored source on this site and has lots of support.
You may be right about the effect of the sanctions. I guess we'll see. In the meantime, I don't need a propaganda source to know how I feel about Putin and Russia right now. It feels pretty black and white to me, and I usually argue for lots of recognition for gray areas. The whole thing has made me temporarily set aside my disgust with my own country's plethora of bad actions in the world. Putin makes us look good at this point. I've been against every military incursion our country has been involved in since I cast my first vote for George McGovern. But Putin's actions against Ukraine are so devastatingly wrong and immoral, I find myself hoping we send all the arms we can to Ukraine and hurt Russia in every way we can. I'm 71 years old and have seen every issue I care about fall to pieces in this country. And having been politically active for so many years, I think I have the intelligence to call this one as I see it. And I don't like being told that because I don't take the same views as others on here that I am just plain so dumb that I must be sitting in the back of a bus.
I agree with you about censorship. I'll bet running your own site was fun.... ha!
Thanks for the reply.
"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin
I never questioned your intelligence
But it’s nice to see you put words in my mouth. I do question what keeps you from learning about why Russia felt it needed to defend themselves from a hostile country on their border which goes against the treaties they signed. I also question why you overlook the fact that Ukraine Nazis have been killing people in the Donbas and they asked Russia for help which after 8 years they decided to give them. Also why you think Russia should accept NATO putting nukes in Ukraine that can reach Moscow in minutes. Maybe you can start addressing the facts instead of being a victim with something I didn’t say.
Was Humpty Dumpty pushed?
Democrats are more likely to ban
mirrors than assault weapons.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
An informative report about the Russian SMO in Ukraine