Open Thread - Thurs 17 Mar 2022 - Another Anti-War Screed

The US National Museum of WWII?

As far as I know at least one member of every recent generation of my family has served in the military. Most recently my husband served in 'peacetime' in Korea, guarding the DMZ. My uncle did two tours in Vietnam during the war. My great Uncle died in the Korean war, after serving in WWII. My grandfathers both were drafted during WWII. Both had young families. One served in the Pacific, on a supply ship stationed outside the battle for Okinawa. A great great Uncle served, and died, in the Canadian Army during WWI. He died at Vimy Ridge, and is buried in one of the huge cemeteries overseas. Ancestors of mine fought, two were wounded and one died, for both sides in the American Civil War. It goes on and on and on...

inb_sml.jpg
To humanize it all: this guy in the picture to the right is one of my ancestors. He served in the Civil War, was wounded at Shiloh. Spent a day or two lying in the battlefield, listening to the men around him die of their wounds, of thirst, of whatever. He eventually crawled to a stream and managed to stop himself dying of thirst. He was 17 or 18 at that time. Just a normal guy, still a kid really when he almost died in war. I'm glad he survived, or I'd not be here!

Why do we make war on others with such seeming nonchalance (at first)? Why do we repeatedly send our brothers, sisters, uncles, fathers, mothers, children to war? Maybe because most of us civilians just don't really know what it means to fight in battle. Maybe because it's glorified and becomes hagiography. Maybe because the men who fight are not really allowed to tell what happened, maybe because they CAN'T tell what happened; it will cause them to commit suicide, to hate themselves, to mourn themselves into dug addiction, to treat their loved ones like shit... I dunno. Maybe it's because we aren't really taught history. It's all just glory to the USA, in a way, if we are even taught the history of the 1900s in High School and so on.

I found this article recently about the US National Museum of World War II. It's good. It at least starts the conversation about everything we neglect to say about war.

The Great American World War II Story.

So, thanks for reading; here's the open thread - and remember, everything is interesting if you dive deep enough!

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Sima's picture

Welcome to Thursday! Post and discuss what you want (unless it's covid, then go to the Dose), I'll be around in the afternoon and evening, as usual! Planting onions and potatoes today or tomorrow, depending upon the rain. Got more work in the greenhouse too, the tomatoes need potted up to 4 inch pots!

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8 users have voted.

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

QMS's picture

Onions, potatoes and tomatoes sound good.
War, not so much. The vainglorious escapades
of the US military are mostly mis-represented
in the history books, education system and media.
Same as it ever was ..

Thanks for the OT!

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QMS's picture

@QMS @QMS

something fun
~

~

something new

talented, but those ears?

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Sima's picture

@QMS @QMS
Same as it ever was. I wish it would change, but it won't. It never has. Great music, thanks for the videos, and the ears rock!

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3 users have voted.

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Lookout's picture

is what drives war from my perspective. War is created by the rich to make them richer, and they never actually fight rather they send in young folk to be cannon fodder ... playing death for dollars.

We got out our onion starts this week. Best of luck with your garden crops!

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

Sima's picture

@Lookout @Lookout
the draft should have remained, just to make the richy riches children serve. But they never did, even when the draft was there, did they? I think their children should go first, as privates and seamen, without rank or status. Move up by ability, not by birth. Dang, what a dreamer I am!

And yea, it's all about money, as usual.

I'll be planting the overwintered onion starts in the next day or two. The starts I started from seed still have another couple weeks in the greenhouse before being planted out. It's amazing how things have changed outside in the last few weeks. We now have the nightly chorus of frogs. It's deafening and I love it!

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3 users have voted.

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

I'm planting a Mexican Buckeye tree this morning. The pot is infested with fire ants so it will be a little touch and go. Very little touch and lots of go.

Thanks for the OT Sima. I leave all the depressing reading to the evening, so will check back then. I do try and stay informed no matter how pissy it makes me. Smile

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QMS's picture

@randtntx

fire ants are nasty
had a basketball sized colony floating toward me once
while working on the bayou
dressed only in chest high waders
couldn't get outa there fast enough!

good luck

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Sima's picture

@randtntx
We don't have them up here, but my parents grew up, and my grandparents lived, where red ants were common. I remember vividly my first encounter with them, just playing on the back streets in Baldwin Park, down in Los Angeles and suddenly this line of ants ran up my arm and began their attack. Gads!

Be careful about planting that tree

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Reason Number seven, eight 99? on why Russia had to act. No water in Crimea.

__________________________________________________________________

Ukrainian Army lost this war weeks ago. They are burning down as much as they can as they are forced out. The hospital massacre in Mariupol? Ukrainians herded civilians into this hospital to be massacred. Remind you of anything from WWII?

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NYCVG

Sima's picture

@NYCVG
all the news and false news and one sided and no recognition of what happened in Ukraine in the 2010's and no understanding of the history of that area at all and the complete blindness to Nazism and... bleh. Drives me nuts and makes me so sad.

Thanks for these two snippets of information from 'the other side'. We need this. A lot.

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3 users have voted.

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

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enhydra lutris's picture

@JtC

be well and have a good one

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Sima's picture

@enhydra lutris
Rocks!

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4 users have voted.

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

enhydra lutris's picture

@Sima

be well and have a good one

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2 users have voted.

That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Sima's picture

@JtC
Thanks. I forget it was St. Paddy's day. Gads. I'm very grateful you reminded me. I'm going to put on some celtic music now Smile

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2 users have voted.

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

enhydra lutris's picture

just as there can be only one ruler, one lord and master -

be well and have a good one

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

snoopydawg's picture

“For about twenty years after the war, I couldn’t look at any film on World War Two. It brought back memories that I didn’t want to keep around. I hated to see how they glorified war. In all those films, people get blown up with their clothes and fall gracefully to the ground. You don’t see anybody being blown apart. You don’t see arms and legs and mutilated bodies. You see only an antiseptic, clean, neat way to die gloriously. I hate it when they say ‘He gave his life for his country.’ Nobody gives their lives for anything. We steal the lives of these kids. We take it away from them. They don’t die for the honor and glory of their country. We kill them.”

The closest Americans got to seeing the true horrors of war was during the opening scenes of Saving Private Ryan. Lots of American veterans walked out of theaters everywhere because it was too realistic. Many people said that it was hard to watch too. Before then we had John Wayne being the hero that saved one battle after another along with his other cinema sidekicks in scenes that had been sanitized from too much gore. Plus Americans were taught that it was they who saved the world in the Great War and not Russia. But the one thing that we didn’t learn is that without our help Hitler would probably not have been able to do what he did. It was American companies that supplied his hardware for the war and gave him so much other assistance. And once again we have America pushing another Great War and there is no doubt about it that we are in one.

The closest Americans got to seeing the gory of war was during the years of M.A.S.H where Hawkeye bitched daily about how asinine it was for him to work so hard saving soldier’s lives only to send them back into battle.

NATO's mouthpiece had the balls to say this:

Stoltenberg targeted China on Tuesday ahead of a NATO defense ministers’ emergency meeting. He suggested Beijing should “join the rest of the world in condemning strongly the brutal invasion of Ukraine by Russia” and said that any kind of support for Moscow now would help it “to continue to wage war which is causing death, suffering and an enormous amount of destruction.”

“China has an obligation as a member of the UN Security Council to actually support and uphold international law,” he added.

China responded with this message:

China has dismissed calls from NATO for it not to support Russia in any way on Thursday, reminding the bloc it was its US-led forces which bombed its embassy in Belgrade during the 1999 attack on Yugoslavia.

Chinese people can fully relate to the pains and sufferings of other countries because we will never forget who had bombed our embassy in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. We need no lecture on justice from the abuser of international law,” a spokesman for the Beijing’s diplomatic mission to the EU said, responding to remarks made by NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg.

Branding NATO a “Cold War remnant,” the diplomat suggested the organization needed to do some self-reflection to examine if it was contributing to world peace and stability, with its expansion and military operations.

It hasn’t been China that has been flooding Ukraine with weapons and sending people over there to train Ukrainians how to use them. No that would be NATO pushed by America doing that.

Yesterday I read that Biden is going to send drones to Ukraine. They are named Switchblade drones and I see that shitlibs are fully behind Biden doing it. They have gone from being anti war to being bloodthirsty &$#@*$.

The 2nd part of the opening of the linked article:

“Optimistic publicity and euphemism had rendered their experience so falsely that it would never be readily communicable. They knew that in its representation to the laity what was happening to them was systematically sanitized and Norman Rockwellized, not to mention Disneyfied. … The real war was tragic and ironic. … America has not yet understood what the Second World War was like and thus has been unable to use such understanding to reinterpret and re-define the national reality and to arrive at something like public maturity.”

I think that there is a good chance that this time Americans might just get to see how utterly horrible war is when it finally comes to America. Most Americans have no idea how ghastly war really is, but most Russians do because they have never glorified it. They are taught its true history and this time Russia decided to fight them over there so they don’t have to fight them here.

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There were problems with running a campaign of Joy while committing a genocide? Who could have guessed?

Sima's picture

@snoopydawg
As usual, you are right on point. Right before he died, my grandfather, the one on the supply ship outside Okinawa, tried to explain a bit of what he saw and did. He didn't see a lot of people die, he wasn't in combat. He and his fellow shipmates had to fight against kamikazis, and watch ships nearby go down, and help rescue the dying, the drowning. He got about 10 words into it, his old tired eyes filled with tears, he choked and stopped talking. 60 years later, and he couldn't talk about it.

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4 users have voted.

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

CB's picture

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxZMhCtYN2k]

Among many important things discussed were:

  • that Ukraine has used prohibited weapons against the people of the Donbass, repeatedly, including White Phosphorous
  • Ukraine's use of Ukrainian civilians as human shields, a war crime, preventing them from leaving areas of conflict (much as terrorists did Syrian civilians)
  • why Russia is conducting the denazification operation
  • that the hatred of Russians and calls for their murder amongst Ukrainian nationalists is not a new thing, but decades old
  • that there will be a Ukrainian war crimes tribunal to hold accountable the criminals who have perpetrated untold and horrific war crimes
  • Ukraine's biological weapons
  • the blatant propaganda and lies in the media war against Russia, much like the manifold lies we saw around Syria
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snoopydawg's picture

@humphrey

Is it to push Biden into doing something that he doesn’t want to do? Like create a no fly zone over Ukraine maybe? Either you do it or your son gets charged?

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There were problems with running a campaign of Joy while committing a genocide? Who could have guessed?

@snoopydawg

Let's see what all the War Explainers---or Fifth Column make of this.

I can hardly wait. Snark.

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NYCVG

ggersh's picture

@humphrey the truth, lies and bullying is all the empire is running on.

International Law for thee....not we

https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2022/03/17/international-law-is-a-meaningle...

“I’ve been asked if I think the invasion of Ukraine is illegal.

My answer is: If we don’t hold our own leaders to account, we can’t hold other leaders to account.

If the law is not applied consistently, it is not the law.

It is simply an excuse we use to target our enemies.

We will pay a heavy price for our hubris of 2003 in the future.

We didn’t just fail to punish Bush and Blair: we rewarded them. We re-elected them. We knighted them.

If you want to see Putin in his true light imagine him landing a jet and then saying ‘Mission Accomplished’.”

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I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish

"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"

Heard from Margaret Kimberley

Sima's picture

@ggersh
Why is it that every UK and USA leader from Thatcher and Reagan on make me want to rage, and vomit?

I still owe Thatcher, I promised my friends in England that when she died, I'd return and dance on her grave with them. Still gotta do that.

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3 users have voted.

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Sima's picture

@humphrey @humphrey
It's just Dad protecting his son, like Dads always do, right? And his son is... bleh. I can't come up with anything more... I can't think like that Sad Or maybe I should smile, because it's a good thing not being able to excuse that?

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3 users have voted.

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

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@humphrey today.

next plandemic, etc.

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4 users have voted.

NYCVG

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CB's picture

'deterrent' simultaneously against both China and Russia to stop their rise and putting an end to American global hegemony.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FOa90vNqKs]

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIpTE-aHEZ0]

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Sima's picture

@CB @CB
Volunteer to be a test subject in a cage with a little nuke that goes off near him/her? So science can learn, again, what happens during a nuke bomb?

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Here is Russia's Plan:

10 Points. Some of them familiar. Read 7,8,9,10 and see if you agree that these points might be mentioned in the USA but never enacted at once. Russia is targeting delivering aid now where it is needed and preventing any further oulflow and damage.

https://www.rt.com/business/552123-russia-sanctions-survival-plan/

If I am missing the mark, please do not hesitate to set me straight.

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NYCVG

QMS's picture

like mushrooms as a solution?
After all, they are losing in everything else.
Perhaps these idiots think wiping out the earth
is a peaceful solution?

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@QMS @QMS of Caity from Oz and Brett Stephens a NY Times nitwit yesterday.

It reminds me of the diving under our desks in school, nonsense propaganda of the 1950's.

Worthless musings prettily framed.

Not just the "idiots in charge," also those who write about them.

We should read them very cautiously.

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5 users have voted.

NYCVG

And also for your appropriate responses to the comments.

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Sima's picture

@humphrey
for reading and commenting. I learn so much from all of the denizens of Caucus99%!

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3 users have voted.

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so