America's unforgivable double-standards

Submitted by gjohnsit on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 1:46pm

All over America, people are concerned and outraged at Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
And they should be, because the invasion was unnecessary. In fact, the levels of concern and outrage are so universal that it might be the number one bipartisan, uniting feature in America today.

It's not only CNN and MSNBC, which have been Russophobic since at least 2016, but even Fox News is calling for Putin to be assassinated. When is the last time that Fox and MSNBC agreed on anything? To give you an idea of just how overwhelming this topic is, Republican politicians are making an immigration exception for Ukrainian refugees.

I have two problems with this:

1) The rhetoric needs to be toned down. The U.S. cannot, under any circumstances, go to war with Russia. To put it in a way that popular opinion would understand, all of the Ukrainians would die if that happened.

2) The hypocrisy and double-standards on display here is sickening beyond belief.

Russia and Ukraine are fighting war that has killed a few thousand, and the U.S. is mostly not responsible for, and thus we don't have the power to stop it.
Meanwhile, we ARE directly responsible for the conditions that have led to GENOCIDAL levels of death in TWO DIFFERENT NATIONS right now, and hardly anyone in America gives a flying f*ck.

I want to be absolutely clear on this: American politicians, the media, and popular opinion is in an uproar over a war that has killed a few thousand people, that we don't have the power to stop.
At the exact same time we are causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, many of them children, and we have the power to stop it tomorrow. Not only do we not stop it, but we don't even care!

As a reminder of how much we care about the people of Afghanistan, parents in Afghanistan are selling their kidneys and selling their children for food during a famine.
The new Afghan government is unable to do anything to prevent thousands of Afghani children from dying because the U.S. stole billions of dollars in order to give it to the families of 9/11 victims.

“The people of Afghanistan had nothing to do with 9/11; that is an undeniable fact,” Bilal Askaryar, an Afghan-American activist, told Al Jazeera.
“What Biden is proposing is not justice for 9/11 families, it is theft of public funds from an impoverished nation already on the brink of famine and starvation brought on by the United States’ disastrous withdrawal.”

The Saudis have been carpet-bombing Yemen since Obama was president. Biden promised to end it, but instead he is doubling-down on a horrific policy.

The U.S. has directly enabled and assisted in the war crimes committed by the Saudi- and UAE-led coalition during the Yemen conflict. By providing them with intelligence, logistics, and weapons, the coalition has the means to fight against the Houthi forces, putting millions of Yemeni lives at risk. The U.S. has a law that prohibits the selling of arms to abusive governments, however by selling weapons and providing military support to the Saudi and UAE coalition the U.S. has chosen to ignore this law, while enabling possible war crimes during the conflict.

About three weeks ago Biden promised the Saudi kingdom that he would protect them from the rebels in Yemen that the Saudis have been bombing indiscriminately.

Anyone on TV or elsewhere that signals their virtue over Ukraine, while being silent about Afghanistan and Yemen is a phony and a fraud.

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Submitted by gjohnsit on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 2:23pm

Neocons on Fox News too

It's not just CNN and MSNBC that has brought back the same people who have already failed so many times.

Submitted by CB on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 2:54pm

The current conflict in Ukraine

was created and exacerbated by the the US.

Disarming Ukraine - Day 7

The crisis, and especially the reaction of the 'west' to it, is much worse than I had feared.

The U.S. government and 'western' media claim that the World condemns Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

That is however far from reality. It is only true if true if you believe 'the world' solely exists of the 5-eye spying cooperation (U.S., UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand), the European Union, Switzerland, Japan and Singapore.

The view differs when you zoom out.

The much bigger 'rest of the world' has not condemned Russia but understands how the conflict came about. They blame, like political scientist John Mearsheimer, the U.S. for causing the crisis. This includes, as far as I can tell, all of Africa (54 states), South America, Central America, the Middle East, and all of Asia ex Japan and Singapore.
...
Ultimately the cause was the US-led West trying to maintain and extend their Hegemony, while they can and Russia resisting it. NATO expansion east in waves, US meddling and hybrid warfare to bring into power pro-Western/anti-Russian governments in formerly neutral, unaligned, national identity-divided post Soviet states was the endgame of this NATO expansion to geopolitically consolidate all of Europe under US-led Western Hegemony up to Russia's borders.

Russia resisted this geopolitical flipping by color revolution in Georgia, Belarus & Ukraine. And now the ultimate target of this economic war on Russia is forcing regime change in Russia itself for having the temerity to resist the Hegemon's geopolitical expansion right on her very borders.

The great Realist IR scholar Mearsheimer foresaw all of this. As did Kissinger, George Kennan, US Ambassador John Matlock and many others. They tried to warn what the consequences of the US trying to geopolitically flip Ukraine would be, but to no avail.

For Russia the only path forward, the goal to survive is, must be - separation, autarky (self-sufficiency), and independence from US-led Western Hegemony.

Confirmed: US imperialists wanted to drag Russia into a war with Ukraine since at least 2019
March 02, 2022

As we wrote in our previous article, after almost eight years, the US imperialists and the NATO criminals got what they wanted. They finally managed to drag Russia into a war with Ukraine.

We now have indisputable evidence for that, through a document by the top US think tank, RAND Corporation. In the preface of a 2019 report under the title Extending Russia, Competing from Advantageous Ground we read: [emphasis added]

The purpose of the project was to examine a range of possible means to extend Russia. By this, we mean nonviolent measures that could stress Russia’s military or economy or the regime’s political standing at home and abroad. The steps we posit would not have either defense or deterrence as their prime purpose, although they might contribute to both. Rather, these steps are conceived of as measures that would lead Russia to compete in domains or regions where the United States has a competitive advantage, causing Russia to overextend itself militarily or economically or causing the regime to lose domestic and/or international prestige and influence.

We could probably stop here, but the details inside this report specifically concerning Ukraine, are even more impressive: [emphasis added]

The Ukrainian military already is bleeding Russia in the Donbass region (and vice versa). Providing more U.S. military equipment and advice could lead Russia to increase its direct involvement in the conflict and the price it pays for it. Russia might respond by mounting a new offensive and seizing more Ukrainian territory. While this might increase Russia’s costs, it would also represent a setback for the United States, as well as for Ukraine. [...] Increasing military advice and arms supplies to Ukraine is the most feasible of these options with the largest impact, but any such initiative would have to be calibrated very carefully to avoid a widely expanded conflict.
...

Submitted by humphrey on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 3:17pm

After the US put its thumb on the scale we get this.

UN General Assembly adopts the resolution entitled "Aggression against Ukraine"

In favor: 141
Against: 5
Abstentions: 35 pic.twitter.com/L5NB94aLaZ

— Camila (@camilapress) March 2, 2022

Iran abstained from the vote saying the text of the resolution “lacks impartiality and realistic mechanisms for resolving the crisis” pic.twitter.com/fJ1bp1ZtkN

— Camila (@camilapress) March 2, 2022

Submitted by gjohnsit on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 4:04pm

The responsibility for this war

The U.S. definitely had a role in creating this war.
But let's not overstate it.
The primary responsibility for this war is whoever decided to bomb and invade another nation. In this case, it's Putin, who has 50%+ of the blame.
To say otherwise is taking agency away from Russia, as if Putin is a puppet of the U.S.

As for the other 49% of the blame, you have Ukraine, NATO, the U.S., the EU. It all depends how you slice it up.

Submitted by CB on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 4:39pm

How long could Putin accept the US meddling

@gjohnsit
in Ukraine by sending weapons and military training/advice and condoning strikes on the Russians in the Donbas? Since 2014, when the US mounted a successful color revolution in Ukraine (financed by $5 billion from the NED) that overthrew the legitimate government and installed a US controlled puppet regime, the US has provided an additional $2.5 billion in military aid to Ukraine (on top of the other billions of dollars) with which to attack and disenfranchise ethnic Russian Ukrainians throughout the country.

The US had finally pushed the Russians against the wall. It left Russia with no other choice.

Submitted by gjohnsit on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 5:04pm

I disagree

@CB

The US had finally pushed the Russians against the wall. It left Russia with no other choice.

The only time that anyone has "no other choice" about going to war is when they are being attacked.
If you believe anything else, then you will be forever in a position of either justifying wars or being a hypocrite.

When it comes to war I am an absolutist.
War is legalized, organized, mass murder. War is evil.

I'm not calling anyone out. But my feelings about war are crystal clear and are unshakable.

Submitted by humphrey on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 5:19pm

Do you take into consideration that the Ukraine has been

@gjohnsit shelling itself for the past eight years since the US inspired Maidan Revolution.

@gjohnsit @gjohnsit

I am referring to the continuous shelling of the Donbas populated by Russian speaking individuals.

Submitted by NYCVG on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 5:44pm

That particular

@humphrey poking of the Bear has gone unnoticed by too many of those so caught up in the current events.

Propaganda for so many years has produced a nation too ignorant to protect itself. (US)

—

NYCVG

Submitted by Wally on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 6:22pm

All We Are Saying is . . .

@gjohnsit

CEASEFIRE NOW! Why the rush to kill, kill, KILL!!!???

Some young Russians (generational divide?) speaking out for PEACE:

[video:https://youtu.be/6l4WMnGol6w]

In #StPetersburg, #Russia, the police detained a well-known survivor of the Siege of Leningrad Yelena Osipova at an anti-war #protest: pic.twitter.com/QFhPrWKcCo

— Alex Kokcharov (@AlexKokcharov) March 2, 2022

[video:https://youtu.be/gEX7Xxfr-qc]

edit: added middle video

Submitted by gjohnsit on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 6:36pm

Arresting a survivor of the Siege of Leningrad

@Wally
is not a good look.
It ranks up there with kicking puppies.

This is a good rule of thumb: if you find yourself in a position of arresting sweet old ladies for protesting a war, (especially if the sweet old lady is a Holocaust survivor, or a survivor of the Siege of Leningrad) then you are in need of a reassessment of your life.

BTW, for anyone who isn't aware of this: the Siege of Leningrad can be considered the worst siege in all of history. 1 million people died in Leningrad. The near constant bombardment by the Nazis was actually not the worst part of it. There were thousands of cases of cannibalism. It was probably the worst place on Earth outside of an extermination camp.

Submitted by Wally on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 8:05pm

I suppose it's better to be arrested. . .

@gjohnsit

... than to wind up killed in a war.

Edit: After having a better look at some group's tweet I included in my post, and deciding that the framing of it by the tweeter was problematic, I've decided to remove it.

Submitted by Linda Wood on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 8:14pm

Putin's parents lost 2 sons

@gjohnsit

in the siege of Leningrad. His father was a soldier, and his mother survived the siege. Putin was born after the war. He spoke about this with Oliver Stone.

It would be difficult to find a person in Russia who didn't lose family or experience horror during the war. The Nazis killed 27,000,000 Russian people. Putin said he understood that the Duma, in voting to recognize the Donbas republics, spoke for the will of the Russian people. He had been the holdout, insisting on Minsk.

A case can be made that the Russian people are divided about Putin's decision. But for all Russians, out-of-control Nazi private armies are a bad sign, never mind arming them with nukes.

Submitted by on the cusp on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 11:36pm

I went there.

@gjohnsit I got the education from local guides.
Couldn't get free from the tour to find the recipe books that featured 700 recipes that featured human dung.

—

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Submitted by Wally on Thu, 03/03/2022 - 6:55am

What???????????????

@on the cusp

Seriously? Are you suggesting that Ukrainians eat human dung?

Am I misreading your post?

I just woke up so maybe my eyes are tricking me or my brain isn't kicking in yet.

Submitted by on the cusp on Thu, 03/03/2022 - 8:57am

Yes, you are.

@Wally Russians had a dung influenced diet during the siege of Stalingrad.

—

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Submitted by Wally on Thu, 03/03/2022 - 9:16am

Oops sorry

@on the cusp

I got Ukraine on the brain.

It's been a long, rough week

[video:https://youtu.be/RijB8wnJCN0]

Submitted by CB on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 6:58pm

Putin currently has a 71% approval rating

@Wally
from Statista and Levada-Center. Up from about 63% prior to Ukraine conflict. The Guardian is an extremely biased source for information about Russia.

I suggest you look to the OffGuardian for information.

https://off-guardian.org/

OffGuardian was launched in February 2015 and takes its name from the fact its founders had all been censored on and/or banned from the Guardian’s ‘Comment is Free’ sections. Our editors & admins are based in the US, UK & Europe.

OffG is dedicated to open discourse and free expression, and will often host articles on both sides of any particular issue. Unless stated otherwise all opinions reflect the views of the author, not the site or its editors.

What’s really going on in Ukraine
Feb 25, 2022
...
The Present Day

Basically, Ukraine has been targeted by the West for “regime change” since at least the “Orange Revolution” of 2004 which was a creation of the NGO racket and Western intelligence, ousting the pro-Russian Victor Yanukovych.

The succeeding Tymoshenko government privatized state assets and vocally supported NATO membership to “protect Ukraine from Russian aggression”.

Things went back and forth for a while with Yanukovych as opposition leader, after which he was elected to the presidency in 2010 and played a chief role in shaping the succeeding two governments.

Then we of course end up with the US-backed coup in 2014, the “Revolution of Dignity”, according to Wikipedia. The purpose of this coup was to absorb Ukraine into the EU, indirectly rendering it a NATO asset, and of course reducing its utility as a Russian market.
...
Since 2014, the United States alone has spent billions of dollars for this purpose, including supplies of arms and equipment and training of specialists. In the last few months, there has been a constant flow of Western weapons to Ukraine, ostentatiously, with the entire world watching. Foreign advisors supervise the activities of Ukraine’s armed forces and special services and we are well aware of this.

Over the past few years, military contingents of NATO countries have been almost constantly present on Ukrainian territory under the pretext of exercises. The Ukrainian troop control system has already been integrated into NATO. This means that NATO headquarters can issue direct commands to the Ukrainian armed forces, even to their separate units and squads.

The United States and NATO have started an impudent development of Ukrainian territory as a theatre of potential military operations. Their regular joint exercises are obviously anti-Russian. Last year alone, over 23,000 troops and more than a thousand units of hardware were involved.

A law has already been adopted that allows foreign troops to come to Ukraine in 2022 to take part in multinational drills. Understandably, these are primarily NATO troops. This year, at least ten of these joint drills are planned.
...

Submitted by Wally on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 7:29pm

Weren't there military exercises previously being. . . .

@CB

. . . held in Russia near the Ukrainian border? Y'know, the ones that weren't going to morph into a full out invasion?

Maybe the Ukrainians felt threatened in October when they decided to go the same route? Maybe they felt the Russian exercises were a provocation? Maybe they felt they had no choice? Hindsight, huh?Were the Ukrainian exercises aimed at staging a "police action" into Russia? I don't think so.

#4.1.1.2 from Statista and Levada-Center. Up from about 63% prior to Ukraine conflict. The Guardian is an extremely biased source for information about Russia. I suggest you look to the OffGuardian for information. https://off-guardian.org/ OffGuardian was launched in February 2015 and takes its name from the fact its founders had all been censored on and/or banned from the Guardian’s ‘Comment is Free’ sections. Our editors & admins are based in the US, UK & Europe. OffG is dedicated to open discourse and free expression, and will often host articles on both sides of any particular issue. Unless stated otherwise all opinions reflect the views of the author, not the site or its editors. What’s really going on in Ukraine Feb 25, 2022 ... The Present Day Basically, Ukraine has been targeted by the West for “regime change” since at least the “Orange Revolution” of 2004 which was a creation of the NGO racket and Western intelligence, ousting the pro-Russian Victor Yanukovych. The succeeding Tymoshenko government privatized state assets and vocally supported NATO membership to “protect Ukraine from Russian aggression”. Things went back and forth for a while with Yanukovych as opposition leader, after which he was elected to the presidency in 2010 and played a chief role in shaping the succeeding two governments. Then we of course end up with the US-backed coup in 2014, the “Revolution of Dignity”, according to Wikipedia. The purpose of this coup was to absorb Ukraine into the EU, indirectly rendering it a NATO asset, and of course reducing its utility as a Russian market. ... Since 2014, the United States alone has spent billions of dollars for this purpose, including supplies of arms and equipment and training of specialists. In the last few months, there has been a constant flow of Western weapons to Ukraine, ostentatiously, with the entire world watching. Foreign advisors supervise the activities of Ukraine’s armed forces and special services and we are well aware of this. Over the past few years, military contingents of NATO countries have been almost constantly present on Ukrainian territory under the pretext of exercises. The Ukrainian troop control system has already been integrated into NATO. This means that NATO headquarters can issue direct commands to the Ukrainian armed forces, even to their separate units and squads. The United States and NATO have started an impudent development of Ukrainian territory as a theatre of potential military operations. Their regular joint exercises are obviously anti-Russian. Last year alone, over 23,000 troops and more than a thousand units of hardware were involved. A law has already been adopted that allows foreign troops to come to Ukraine in 2022 to take part in multinational drills. Understandably, these are primarily NATO troops. This year, at least ten of these joint drills are planned. ...

Submitted by NYCVG on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 7:50pm

USA Today 2/21/22

@Wally @Wally @Wally https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2022/02/21/ukraine-russia-n...

USA covers the provocation the Ukraine was experiencing.

and Pepe Escobar today:

CONFIRMED by the Duma.

Operation Z started ONE DAY ahead of the invasion of Donbass by the Ukrainian Army.

GRU was receiving operational intel minute by minute.

So "Russia was left with no choice."

A pre-emptive op to prevent a massacre.

— Pepe Escobar (@RealPepeEscobar) March 2, 2022

—

NYCVG

Submitted by CB on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 8:43pm

The US has been sending arms

@Wally
(and training) in increasing amounts to the Ukrainians since 2018.

Ukrainian troops ride armored personnel carriers armed with Javelin antitank missiles during a military parade in Kiev on Aug. 24, 2018. Genya Savilov/AFP/Getty Images

Blackwater is in Donbas with the Azov Battalion
...
According to reports from the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission in Ukraine, obscured by our mainstream media, which only speaks about the Russian deployment, Ukrainian Army and National Guard units, amounting to about 150,000 troops, are positioned here. They are armed and trained, and thus effectively commanded, by US-NATO military advisers and instructors.
...
In addition to the US-NATO military investments in Ukraine, there is the $10 billion plan being implemented by Erik Prince, founder of the private US military company Blackwater, now renamed Academi, which has been supplying mercenaries to the CIA, Pentagon, and State Department for covert operations (including torture and assassinations), earning billions of dollars. Erik Prince’s plan, revealed by a Time Magazine investigation [1], is to create a private army in Ukraine through a partnership between the Lancaster 6 company, with which Prince has supplied mercenaries in the Middle East and Africa, and the main Ukrainian intelligence office controlled by the CIA. It is not known, of course, what would be the tasks of the private army created in Ukraine by the founder of Blackwater, certainly with funding from the CIA. However, it can be expected that it would conduct covert operations in Europe, Russia, and other regions from its base in Ukraine.
...
Against this background, it is particularly alarming that the Russian Defense Minister Shoygu denounced that in the Donetsk region there are “private US military companies that are preparing a provocation with the use of unknown chemicals.” This could be the spark that causes the detonation of a war in the heart of Europe: a chemical attack against Ukrainian civilians in Donbas, immediately attributed to the Russians of Donetsk and Lugansk, which would be attacked by the preponderant Ukrainian forces already deployed in the region, to force Russia to intervene militarily in their defense.

In the front line, ready to slaughter the Russians in the Donbas, is the Azov Battalion, promoted to a special forces regiment, trained and armed by the US and NATO, distinguished for its ferocity in attacks on the Russian populations of Ukraine. The Azov Battalion, which recruits neo-Nazis from all over Europe under its flag, traced from that of SS Das Reich, is commanded by its founder Andrey Biletsky, promoted to colonel [2]. It is not only a military unit, but an ideological and political movement, of which Biletsky is the charismatic leader, especially for the youth wing educated to hate the Russians with his book The Words of the White Führer.

Submitted by Wally on Thu, 03/03/2022 - 6:49am

Are you suggesting that Putin. . .

@CB

. . . long ago stopped building up his military? Chicken, egg?

Did Ukraine invade Russia or did Russia invade Ukraine (after Putin repeatedly said the military buildup at the border only amounted to training exercises)?

If Ukraine invaded Russia, I would be condemning Ukraine instead of Russia.

I guess I have things mixed up.

#4.1.1.2.2.1 (and training) in increasing amounts to the Ukrainians since 2018. Ukrainian troops ride armored personnel carriers armed with Javelin antitank missiles during a military parade in Kiev on Aug. 24, 2018. Genya Savilov/AFP/Getty Images Blackwater is in Donbas with the Azov Battalion ... According to reports from the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission in Ukraine, obscured by our mainstream media, which only speaks about the Russian deployment, Ukrainian Army and National Guard units, amounting to about 150,000 troops, are positioned here. They are armed and trained, and thus effectively commanded, by US-NATO military advisers and instructors. ... In addition to the US-NATO military investments in Ukraine, there is the $10 billion plan being implemented by Erik Prince, founder of the private US military company Blackwater, now renamed Academi, which has been supplying mercenaries to the CIA, Pentagon, and State Department for covert operations (including torture and assassinations), earning billions of dollars. Erik Prince’s plan, revealed by a Time Magazine investigation [1], is to create a private army in Ukraine through a partnership between the Lancaster 6 company, with which Prince has supplied mercenaries in the Middle East and Africa, and the main Ukrainian intelligence office controlled by the CIA. It is not known, of course, what would be the tasks of the private army created in Ukraine by the founder of Blackwater, certainly with funding from the CIA. However, it can be expected that it would conduct covert operations in Europe, Russia, and other regions from its base in Ukraine. ... Against this background, it is particularly alarming that the Russian Defense Minister Shoygu denounced that in the Donetsk region there are “private US military companies that are preparing a provocation with the use of unknown chemicals.” This could be the spark that causes the detonation of a war in the heart of Europe: a chemical attack against Ukrainian civilians in Donbas, immediately attributed to the Russians of Donetsk and Lugansk, which would be attacked by the preponderant Ukrainian forces already deployed in the region, to force Russia to intervene militarily in their defense. In the front line, ready to slaughter the Russians in the Donbas, is the Azov Battalion, promoted to a special forces regiment, trained and armed by the US and NATO, distinguished for its ferocity in attacks on the Russian populations of Ukraine. The Azov Battalion, which recruits neo-Nazis from all over Europe under its flag, traced from that of SS Das Reich, is commanded by its founder Andrey Biletsky, promoted to colonel [2]. It is not only a military unit, but an ideological and political movement, of which Biletsky is the charismatic leader, especially for the youth wing educated to hate the Russians with his book The Words of the White Führer.

Submitted by CB on Thu, 03/03/2022 - 11:36am

The US has been 'invading Ukraine'

@Wally
well before the Russian buildup.

US Starts Building 'Maritime Operations Center' in Ukraine, Here's Why
13.08.2017

American specialists have launched the construction of a maritime operations center at the Ochakiv Naval Base in Ukraine, the United States Navy reported on its website. The groundbreaking ceremony took place on July 25.

"The Seabees, assigned to Naval Mobile Construction Battalion (NMCB) 1, have been in Ochakiv since April to establish contracts, obtain construction permits, and perform other logistical necessities needed for long term sustainment of the maritime operations center project," the Navy said.
...
In particular, the document outlines the admission of the US military, the military of other NATO member states and the countries participating in NATO's Partnership for Peace program totaling up to 3,000 personnel with weapons and military equipment, up to six aircraft and helicopters for up to 365 days in January-December 2017.

In July, Ukraine hosted the 2017 Sea Breeze international naval exercise, involving the US and 16 other countries.

Moreover, earlier this month, US media reported that the US defense and diplomatic establishment had devised a plan to supply lethal arms to Ukraine.
...

U.S. Advance and Russia’s Deep Concerns: The Operations Center in Ochakiv
By Ridvan Urcosta | April 19, 2019

Russia has been carefully observing the activities of the U.S and British navies in the Black Sea region. It protested through diplomatic channels that the main thrust of Sea Breeze 2018, a Black Sea exercise with Ukraine, was anti-Russian. And according to the Russian Institute of Strategic Research, it was not a coincidence when after Sea Breeze 2017, the United States revealed plans to build a maritime operations center in Ochakiv, a small city located between Crimea and Odessa at the mouth of the Dnieper River.1
...

...

Strategy of the Naval Forces of the Armed Forces of Ukraine 2035
11 Jan 2019
...
Complex of maritime security measures includes possession of maritime awareness, ensuring safetyof navigation, fight against terrorism and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction at sea, protection of critical maritime infrastructure, participation in international naval operations and exercises led by NATO, the European Union, the UN, and participation in other activities of military cooperation with partner nations and organizations.

Ukraine’s aspiration to join NATO and the European Union defines a set of its main strategic partners, lines of reforms and development of national defence and security forces. Reaching a high level of interoperability of the Ukrainian Navy with Alliance’s units will increase their efficiency in accomplishing the assigned tasks.

Vision
...
Implementation of this vision is possible due to gradual and balanced development of combat potential of the Naval Forces of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, with progressive build-up of tasks and capabilities. Below, there are three components of combat potential, which are formed in accordance with NATO standards and principles: physical, conceptual, and moral. All of them are closely interconnected and should be developed in harmony.
...
The physical component is defined as means of conducting an armed struggle. It consists of five elements: personnel, armaments and military equipment, units’ cohesion, combat readiness and logistics (all-out sustainment). This component involves establishment of the combat organization of the Naval Forces of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, a system of command, training, sustainment, acquisition of modern naval armaments and equipment, which are fully interoperable with NATO.

In order to defeat a stronger aggressor, the physical component should be used proactively, asymmetrically and agile, first of all against the most vulnerable enemy’s sites. This leads to the second component – conceptual.

The conceptual component offers a structure of thinking, an intellectual basis for troops, provides commanders with an ability to understand a situation in difficult environment, through creativity, resourcefulness and initiative. Development of the conceptual component is possible only through the mastery of the NATO principles, standards, and values during education, force generation and employment of the Naval Forces of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
...

Submitted by wokkamile on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 6:41pm

Absolutist? How about

@gjohnsit our entry into WW2? Was the attack on PH enough to justify US entry or did we need to try further diplomatic measures? How about our response to Germany declaring war -- were we justified then to declaring war on them?

Just trying to get a better sense of the extent of your "absolutism" re war.

Submitted by gjohnsit on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 8:37pm

People have a right to defend themselves

@wokkamile
I made that clear above. We were attacked in WWII.
People have a right to defend themselves.

But as for every other type of war, well I think the politicians, war profiteers, chickenhawks, and news media should all be thrown into a pit and forced to fight to the death, while we all watch it on pay-per-view.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 9:47pm

Again what other options do you think Russia had?

@gjohnsit

We’ve been planning on doing exactly this for years so how do you think Russia should have acted to avoid what it’s doing? And if they did whatever you think they should have would that have stopped us from continuing to do what we have been? The Rand guy’s had a detailed plan that I posted below.

One of the biggest complaints Putin has is the neo Nazis being in Ukraine. I don’t think any country should have to tolerate them and especially when we have been arming them and they have been killing Russians in Ukraine. As Putin stated it’s genocide.

—

Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.

Submitted by ggersh on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 7:38pm

Aren't sanctions a form of war?

@gjohnsit Sanctions kill as many as bullets, bombs, just in a different manner

—

I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish

"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"

Heard from Margaret Kimberley

Submitted by NYCVG on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 5:42pm

I'm with you, CB

@CB Moon of Alabama in the clip you provided gets it right.

This is the contained war on somebody else's soil that the USA wanted. Good-bye, Covid. Hello, Ukraine. The War Economy is delighted. Diverting our tax dollars into their own pockets. I wonder if they even see the danger or if their hubris has blinded them.

The unknown factor is how far Russia will go to avenge the prodding they have gotten.

Will reclaiming the Donbas and the southern tier of Ukraine be satisfying enough? I'm thinking of all the land east of the Dneipur, back in Russia's hands. That might be a deal that can be made.

Or will we feel some of the pain we have incited, right here at home?

IDK.

What I do know, is that gjohnsit's view is overly rosy about the country we live in and how much fury it has incited around the world.

—

NYCVG

Submitted by wokkamile on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 6:52pm

It left Putin w no

@CB other choice particularly as the US refused to acknowledge and respect Russia's specified security concerns over Nato and Ukraine, and as the US then continued at every key moment to refuse to negotiate in good faith to resolve the matter. I don't see what else was left when it was clear that negotiations would be a waste of time.

And as we are now finding out, there may have been a reason for the US not to seriously negotiate: their plan actually has been to create trouble in Ukraine for Russia and thereby destabilize political conditions in Russia and the Putin gov't, all to set up engineering regime change there.

Submitted by Bob In Portland on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 6:35pm

please

@gjohnsit The Ukronazis have been shelling Donbass and Lugansk for eight years. The Russians didn't fire first. They may not have fired first on the day of the invasion.

As I have stated in a number of places, some where I am no longer allowed, this war is about the US's control of energy. After the coup in Ukraine the government was freed to steal natgas from the Russian pipelines running across Ukraine, or blocking gas entirely. Or not paying their bills. Russia then built Nord Stream 1 and now Nord Stream 2 to transport natgas to Europe, bypassing Ukraine, thus eliminating Ukraine's ability to screw with Russian gas.

Energy companies in the US have discovered an abundance of natural gas seeping out of fracking sites and have over the last decade begun working on expanding their natural gas market. They've built LNG terminals up and down the Atlantic coast. Unfortunately, the process of exporting natgas across Atlantic cannot compete with Russian gas through a pipeline. (It should be noted that in 2011 Iran, Iraq and Syria proposed a natural gas pipeline from Iran's oilfields to the Mediterranean. Then came all those ISIS riding in brand new white Toyota trucks.)

If pushed far enough Russia could basically shut off gas to Europe, which would create an energy crisis around the world. Industries would have to shut down and heating would be threatened in the EU. China is a large natgas market and could absorb most but not all of what it would lose in Europe. There plenty of markets for gas in India and throughout Asia.

This is the immediate result of US meddling in Ukraine. There are many good books available which detail the military's, and then CIA's use of the Nazi residua after WWII and Ukraine plays a central role.

Robert Gates, who should have been gone to jail for treasonous acts during Iran-contra, was on either CNN or MSNBC over the weekend psychoanalyzing Putin. His diagnosis: Putin is evil and insane. If anyone remembers, every time the US attacks a country the leader is evil and insane.

Submitted by wokkamile on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 6:59pm

Makes it so much

@Bob In Portland easier for our military and natsec state to move aggressively against an opponent when they have first paved the way in the public info war by making their leaders into evil tyrants, of a Hitler caliber.

Note the recent Gallup poll where the US public is definitely showing signs of being played: a week ago in another major poll, only 20% or so favored stronger US action in Ukraine. Now that number in the G poll is closer to a slight majority. That's after only one week of heavy MSM propaganda. Imagine where we will be a week or two from now: calls for the US to implement a NFZ, and sending in the troops.

#4 The Ukronazis have been shelling Donbass and Lugansk for eight years. The Russians didn't fire first. They may not have fired first on the day of the invasion. As I have stated in a number of places, some where I am no longer allowed, this war is about the US's control of energy. After the coup in Ukraine the government was freed to steal natgas from the Russian pipelines running across Ukraine, or blocking gas entirely. Or not paying their bills. Russia then built Nord Stream 1 and now Nord Stream 2 to transport natgas to Europe, bypassing Ukraine, thus eliminating Ukraine's ability to screw with Russian gas. Energy companies in the US have discovered an abundance of natural gas seeping out of fracking sites and have over the last decade begun working on expanding their natural gas market. They've built LNG terminals up and down the Atlantic coast. Unfortunately, the process of exporting natgas across Atlantic cannot compete with Russian gas through a pipeline. (It should be noted that in 2011 Iran, Iraq and Syria proposed a natural gas pipeline from Iran's oilfields to the Mediterranean. Then came all those ISIS riding in brand new white Toyota trucks.) If pushed far enough Russia could basically shut off gas to Europe, which would create an energy crisis around the world. Industries would have to shut down and heating would be threatened in the EU. China is a large natgas market and could absorb most but not all of what it would lose in Europe. There plenty of markets for gas in India and throughout Asia. This is the immediate result of US meddling in Ukraine. There are many good books available which detail the military's, and then CIA's use of the Nazi residua after WWII and Ukraine plays a central role. Robert Gates, who should have been gone to jail for treasonous acts during Iran-contra, was on either CNN or MSNBC over the weekend psychoanalyzing Putin. His diagnosis: Putin is evil and insane. If anyone remembers, every time the US attacks a country the leader is evil and insane.

Submitted by ggersh on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 7:42pm

First you have to believe those polls

@wokkamile Funny how most polls favor the establishment narrative, always!

—

I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish

"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"

Heard from Margaret Kimberley

Submitted by snoopydawg on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 4:14pm

It goes far beyond this

The rhetoric needs to be toned down. The U.S. cannot, under any circumstances, go to war with Russia. To put it in a way that popular opinion would understand, all of the Ukrainians would die if that happened.

It would be bad news for the world if America entered the war in Ukraine. It’s continuing arming of it and the other rhetoric coming from various countries is exactly why Putin put the nuclear forces into play. Russia is constantly being threatened and as Putin has said, they have nowhere to retreat to. I’m seeing calls for a no fly zone over Ukraine which is the dumbest idea yet. Even as far gone as Biden’s brain is he knows what would happen if it was enforced. The sanctions could be enough to trigger Russia just like the sanctions on Japan triggered them to attack Pearl Harbor.

However I can’t believe that you think this:

Russia and Ukraine are fighting war that has killed a few thousand, and the U.S. is mostly not responsible for, and thus we don't have the power to stop it.

Yes we are directly responsible for what is happening in Ukraine. It started when Obama overthrew Ukraine’s president who was going to take the Russian bailout instead of getting saddled with the IMF that brought austerity to Ukraine. It was further inflamed by us sending billions in weapons to them and because we wouldn’t give Russia our agreement not to admit Ukraine into NATO. Hell yes we are directly responsible for what is happening there today. Again I ask what if Russia had overthrown Mexico’s president and flooded the country with lethal weapons and then Mexico killed American ex pats there? You think we would have waited 8 years to retaliate? How can you not see that we pushed Russia to the wall?

We could have insisted that Ukraine upheld the Minsk agreement not to attack Russians in the Donbas area. We could tell countries not to send weapons. We the United States of fcking America. We can insist that both sides sit down and talk. We can stop this war any time we want to.

But the world’s hypocrisy is just so asinine there really are no words for it.

—

Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.

Submitted by QMS on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 4:24pm

agreed snoop

@snoopydawg

perhaps the +/- 50% blame game is being tossed out as the devil's advocacy?
I don't know about that. But I do know who is making money on this.
The weapons industry. +/- 100%

The rhetoric needs to be toned down. The U.S. cannot, under any circumstances, go to war with Russia. To put it in a way that popular opinion would understand, all of the Ukrainians would die if that happened. It would be bad news for the world if America entered the war in Ukraine. It’s continuing arming of it and the other rhetoric coming from various countries is exactly why Putin put the nuclear forces into play. Russia is constantly being threatened and as Putin has said, they have nowhere to retreat to. I’m seeing calls for a no fly zone over Ukraine which is the dumbest idea yet. Even as far gone as Biden’s brain is he knows what would happen if it was enforced. The sanctions could be enough to trigger Russia just like the sanctions on Japan triggered them to attack Pearl Harbor. However I can’t believe that you think this: Russia and Ukraine are fighting war that has killed a few thousand, and the U.S. is mostly not responsible for, and thus we don't have the power to stop it. Yes we are directly responsible for what is happening in Ukraine. It started when Obama overthrew Ukraine’s president who was going to take the Russian bailout instead of getting saddled with the IMF that brought austerity to Ukraine. It was further inflamed by us sending billions in weapons to them and because we wouldn’t give Russia our agreement not to admit Ukraine into NATO. Hell yes we are directly responsible for what is happening there today. Again I ask what if Russia had overthrown Mexico’s president and flooded the country with lethal weapons and then Mexico killed American ex pats there? You think we would have waited 8 years to retaliate? How can you not see that we pushed Russia to the wall? We could have insisted that Ukraine upheld the Minsk agreement not to attack Russians in the Donbas area. We could tell countries not to send weapons. We the United States of fcking America. We can insist that both sides sit down and talk. We can stop this war any time we want to. But the world’s hypocrisy is just so asinine there really are no words for it.

—

question everything

Submitted by Linda Wood on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 4:26pm

YES!

@snoopydawg

Snoopy, I totally agree.

The rhetoric needs to be toned down. The U.S. cannot, under any circumstances, go to war with Russia. To put it in a way that popular opinion would understand, all of the Ukrainians would die if that happened. It would be bad news for the world if America entered the war in Ukraine. It’s continuing arming of it and the other rhetoric coming from various countries is exactly why Putin put the nuclear forces into play. Russia is constantly being threatened and as Putin has said, they have nowhere to retreat to. I’m seeing calls for a no fly zone over Ukraine which is the dumbest idea yet. Even as far gone as Biden’s brain is he knows what would happen if it was enforced. The sanctions could be enough to trigger Russia just like the sanctions on Japan triggered them to attack Pearl Harbor. However I can’t believe that you think this: Russia and Ukraine are fighting war that has killed a few thousand, and the U.S. is mostly not responsible for, and thus we don't have the power to stop it. Yes we are directly responsible for what is happening in Ukraine. It started when Obama overthrew Ukraine’s president who was going to take the Russian bailout instead of getting saddled with the IMF that brought austerity to Ukraine. It was further inflamed by us sending billions in weapons to them and because we wouldn’t give Russia our agreement not to admit Ukraine into NATO. Hell yes we are directly responsible for what is happening there today. Again I ask what if Russia had overthrown Mexico’s president and flooded the country with lethal weapons and then Mexico killed American ex pats there? You think we would have waited 8 years to retaliate? How can you not see that we pushed Russia to the wall? We could have insisted that Ukraine upheld the Minsk agreement not to attack Russians in the Donbas area. We could tell countries not to send weapons. We the United States of fcking America. We can insist that both sides sit down and talk. We can stop this war any time we want to. But the world’s hypocrisy is just so asinine there really are no words for it.

Submitted by gjohnsit on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 5:18pm

@snoopydawg

@snoopydawg

Again I ask what if Russia had overthrown Mexico’s president and flooded the country with lethal weapons and then Mexico killed American ex pats there? You think we would have waited 8 years to retaliate? How can you not see that we pushed Russia to the wall?

I would think that if we invaded Mexico that we would be committing an act of evil.
War is evil. It has always been and will always be evil.
At the very least, war should always be the absolute last resort, and I refuse to believe that Russia had no other options. That makes it an act of evil.

Sure, we put Russia in a vice. Yes, we helped create this situation.
But once Russia forces the Ukraine government to flee do you think they are going to say "America made us do this", or will they celebrate their military victory?

The rhetoric needs to be toned down. The U.S. cannot, under any circumstances, go to war with Russia. To put it in a way that popular opinion would understand, all of the Ukrainians would die if that happened. It would be bad news for the world if America entered the war in Ukraine. It’s continuing arming of it and the other rhetoric coming from various countries is exactly why Putin put the nuclear forces into play. Russia is constantly being threatened and as Putin has said, they have nowhere to retreat to. I’m seeing calls for a no fly zone over Ukraine which is the dumbest idea yet. Even as far gone as Biden’s brain is he knows what would happen if it was enforced. The sanctions could be enough to trigger Russia just like the sanctions on Japan triggered them to attack Pearl Harbor. However I can’t believe that you think this: Russia and Ukraine are fighting war that has killed a few thousand, and the U.S. is mostly not responsible for, and thus we don't have the power to stop it. Yes we are directly responsible for what is happening in Ukraine. It started when Obama overthrew Ukraine’s president who was going to take the Russian bailout instead of getting saddled with the IMF that brought austerity to Ukraine. It was further inflamed by us sending billions in weapons to them and because we wouldn’t give Russia our agreement not to admit Ukraine into NATO. Hell yes we are directly responsible for what is happening there today. Again I ask what if Russia had overthrown Mexico’s president and flooded the country with lethal weapons and then Mexico killed American ex pats there? You think we would have waited 8 years to retaliate? How can you not see that we pushed Russia to the wall? We could have insisted that Ukraine upheld the Minsk agreement not to attack Russians in the Donbas area. We could tell countries not to send weapons. We the United States of fcking America. We can insist that both sides sit down and talk. We can stop this war any time we want to. But the world’s hypocrisy is just so asinine there really are no words for it.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 5:52pm

So Russia should continue to let Russians get slaughtered

@gjohnsit

in Donbas? And let NATO continue to put nukes in countries that border it? For how much longer?

What other options do you think they had after warning us since we started encroaching on them? Guess they could have stopped all exports and crashed the global economy which would have killed many more people who are barely hanging on.

But once Russia forces the Ukraine government to flee do you think they are going to say "America made us do this", or will they celebrate their military victory?

Yesterday Russia said that Zelensky should continue to be president of Ukraine. He also plans on having trials for the neo Nazis that committed crimes against humanity during the Maiden square massacre. Have you heard what the Nazis plan to do to Russians? If you read other essays here you would have.

Russia says that it’s not starting a war, but ending it. We did start the war whether you believe it or not. They see that their country is being directly threatened and has been since NATO started moving east. You can believe in absolutes if you want, but it doesn’t change what has been happening.

I agree with you that war is evil. Too bad that Americans can’t get off their asses and make the government understand that we are done with our warmongering ways. If that would make any difference that is. They don’t seem to care what we want.

Curious about how you think Russia could have avoided this. Seriously not being rude.

—

Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 6:13pm

This is excellent

@gjohnsit

Caitlyn has a few tweets in this article on how our deep state thinkers think it would be great if we keep flooding Ukraine with weapons so we can create another Afghanistan for them.

Ukraine will be Putin's Afghanistan.

— Michael McFaul (@McFaul) February 28, 2022

Our government doesn’t give 2 sh*ts for the Ukrainian people because if they did they wouldn’t be doing what they are. They are willing to fight till the last Ukrainian is dead and then they will move on to the next country they want to use to threaten Russia.

So now that the war has started there is an obvious way to stop it. But they are not going to because another reason we goaded Russia is to make sure that countries in Europe don’t even think about getting out of our orbit trade wise. Hudson and others have been making this point too. Poor poodles!

—

Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.

Submitted by wokkamile on Thu, 03/03/2022 - 7:41am

But it would appear

@gjohnsit that Russians going into Ukraine was the key factor that finally got the Ukraine gov't to sit down and engage in serious negotiations. The second round will be held today. It's possible that Russia has been carefully moderating its attack in order to encourage such negotiations and to have a gov't still intact to negotiate with.

So, an unavoidable but necessary evil.

Submitted by Wally on Thu, 03/03/2022 - 9:12am

For my two Rubles

@wokkamile

The Russians could have prompted serious negotiations by limiting their military endeavors to Donetsk and Luhansk provinces. That type of "police action" would have been more precise if the end game was simply to stop the shelling of the Donbas as was stated by Putin. And civil wars have much less tendency to spin out of control towards a world war and nuclear Armageddon than outright full scale invasions of an entire country. It would be nice if Putin would agree on a solution that would simply result in annexation of those two provinces to Russia and a non-militarized, non-NATO, non-nukified Ukraine. But this "world leader pretend" hopes that now, given military realities, Putin will settle on annexing Ukraine more or less up to the Dnieper River and obtaining agreement on an independent but non-militarized, non-NATO. non-nuclear Ukraine more or less west of the Dnieper which still leaves Kharkiv straddling that line. But I suspect he's going to be much greedier and belligerent than that.
[video:https://youtu.be/WwS9_vqdHcQ]

edits coz I'm getting old

Submitted by wokkamile on Thu, 03/03/2022 - 10:22am

I'm not sure

@Wally if Putin stated the sole objective was to end the gov't shelling in the Donbas. What he's been consistently saying lately is there are two goals in mind: demilitarize Ukraine and bring its Nazi forces to justice. You can't demilitarize the country unless you can get at and neutralize its army, and you can't bring the Ukrainian nazis to book unless you can find and arrest them where they are in all parts of the country.

And as he told Macron today, if he finds that the Ukraine gov't is stalling in negotiations, the list of Russian demands will only increase.

Submitted by Wally on Thu, 03/03/2022 - 11:01am

Putin bit off more than he can chew

@wokkamile

Well, Putin has pretty much surrounded the worst of the far right forces throughout the Donbass. So they're fucked. I think you and others waaaaaaay overestimate their import in Ukrainian politics. The Azov Battalion and others were sent to the Donbass coz they were the craziest fighters and also to get them as far away from Kyiv as possible.

I still think taking over the two provinces would have at least made for serious negotiations about demilitarization, ensuring no-nukes, and no NATO admission.

Seems to me, he bit off more than he can chew with the west becoming more united than for a long, long time. Counterproductive, too, istm in terms of making Russians question his leadership.

Now Warlord Trump is foaming at the mouth about the Russian invasion being a holocaust.

Things will only get worse for him if he chooses to shell Kiev and engage in street combat. Certainly, worse for Ukrainians, too, but they've been pretty much used by the US as cannon fodder.

edited coz I'm old, mea culpa.

Submitted by gjohnsit on Thu, 03/03/2022 - 11:20am

Putin has been patient and had a good vision of the future...

@Wally
...until this.
I think he jumped the gun. The west isn't as disunited and weak as he assumed.
If he waited until the next economic crisis (which probably isn't all that far away), then it might have gone better for him.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Thu, 03/03/2022 - 11:53am

Again…

@gjohnsit

What else do you think he should have done? Will you share your ideas on this or just keep ignoring my question? All you say is that he was bad for doing it, but ignoring the Russians that have been killed in the Donbas and that Nazis are being given training, support and weapons. I haven’t seen you say anything about that abomination. Did you know that there were 5 mass graves in those 2 areas that had women and children in them? How much longer should Russia have tolerated that? You seem to see this in b & w with no grey anywhere. Russia bad. Period. Just wait a little longer after waiting 8 years?

—

Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.

Submitted by gjohnsit on Thu, 03/03/2022 - 12:09pm

Are you effing kidding me?

@snoopydawg

You seem to see this in b & w with no grey anywhere. Russia bad. Period.

Have you ever read anything that I've written? Are you even familiar with me?

If this is your starting point then I've got other things to do.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Thu, 03/03/2022 - 12:26pm

Oh for gawd’s sake

@gjohnsit

I’m asking you a question that you haven’t answered. Don’t get all sanctimonious on me. You know me better than that. Now will you answer me or continue to ignore my question?

—

Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.

Submitted by gjohnsit on Thu, 03/03/2022 - 4:26pm

OK. OK.

@snoopydawg
But your statement was still over the top.

As for what could Putin do, I'm not exactly certain because I wasn't privy to the ongoing talks (neither was anyone else here). But as long as there were talks going on, then I think by definition that there were other options.

As for the "genocide" claims in the Donbas, I don't believe them for two reasons.
1) Because I've seen the U.S. pull the bullsh*t genocide card to justify an unnecessary war before, and Russia is no better than us
2) I've followed this conflict since 2014. There was no mass killings there since 2015. and the shelling since 2015 was pretty evenly split between the two warring parties.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Fri, 03/04/2022 - 12:33am

Putin has been trying to have a dialogue with us

@gjohnsit

Since 2007. Last December he tried again and for the last time to get us to back off. We ignored him. Therefore there was no more ways for him to get us to discuss the situation with him. Meanwhile he was done watching Russians get killed and decided to stop it. Whether you believe that genocide was happening is irrelevant. Putin did and he’s been calling that out too. Again I’ll bring up the situation being reversed and how we’d react if Russia overthrew Mexico’s president and flooded the country with Nazis and weapons. We’d see it as a direct threat to our security. It’s exactly what Putin has been saying. He didn’t start the war. We did. He’s trying to end it. That’s what he’s been saying. And Russia has said that they have found mass graves in the Donbas area. Full of women and children. But he probably should just ignore that right?

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-r...

—

Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.

Submitted by wokkamile on Thu, 03/03/2022 - 12:29pm

It seems plenty

@gjohnsit jarring to read that Putin has "jumped the gun" after seeing 8 yrs of shelling the Donbas and 7 years of refusal to implement Minsk 2. And though we can't know for sure, it's likely he was getting considerable pressure from his right flank in the Kremlin to get going on Ukraine, that he had already shown enough patience.

Re underestimating how united and strong the west would be, again I fail to see how any Putin calculation in this area would have influenced his final decision. So the west is united and "strong" -- but not strong enough to prevent what Putin is doing and almost certainly the sanctions reprisal is not making Putin regret going in. That response was already anticipated. If he were regretting it, we would be seeing a Russian military pullback from all areas outside of the 2 breakaway regions.

Submitted by wokkamile on Thu, 03/03/2022 - 12:14pm

some rebuttals:

@Wally Cannot recall the exact source of this, but a recent indy left analyst (Maté, Greenwald, Blumenthal?) recently reported that Zelensky, upon taking office, actually wanted to begin to implement Minsk2 but was warned off threateningly by far-right/Ukro Nazis, and so nothing happened. Also re Ukraine Nazis, they are apparently important enough such that even NPR today had a bite-sized report dealing with the far right, probably so that outlet could go on record as at least acknowledging their existence in Ukraine, with the overall implication being they were a non-trivial force but that NPR would rather not dwell too much on that fact.

Going after just the 2 provinces: maybe, but Putin likely figured the nazis would just escape easily back into western Ukraine. And grabbing a military foothold in most of the country gives Russia greater bargaining power over a stubborn U gov't that has been so reluctant to give an inch in negotiations.

West united: but question whether a lot of this is superficial and represents a hasty rush to judgment that will soon be regretted. Regardless, whether united or not, it would have mattered not to Russia as they are intent on enforcing their will in Ukraine and will not back down. In their view, they had no other choice.

Re Russians questioning his leadership: not according to the latest polls there, that show Vlad's approval rating going up from low 60s to low 70s. I know, some might question these polls, but I can't recall their validity ever being seriously challenged in the western press.

Re Trump's "holocaust" remark: he's having to backpedal a bit, recognizing that not enough of the GOP has followed his initial Putin Is A Genius remarks. On a personal note, in a major social media platform where I posted in a so-called "progressive" small group, I was accused of being a "Putin-loving Republican" for questioning US policy on Ukraine and Russia. I am apparently now considered persona au gratin, officially an unperson in the group.

Submitted by Wally on Thu, 03/03/2022 - 12:47pm

It amazes me that you have any American friends left

@wokkamile

. . . aside from folks on this board. And as I recall, both you and I were way back when practically and maybe even being actually accused of being ToP or something or other operatives here.

I'm pretty much always willing to discuss anything political and welcome most disagreement and pushback although I cringe when my positions are greviously and repeatedly misstated or my motives questioned.

And I've noted again and again that Zelenskiy has found himself in a pickle where he's been forced to play politrix with some really shady right wing bastards of varying shades. Again, they constitute about 2.1 of the electorate and were unable to vote in one of their candidates into parliament. Yes, they do have a ridiculously inordinate influence. Terrorists are like that. And don't forget they have been the boldest and downright craziest fighters. Every tool serves a purpose.

I don't think the bulk of the neonazis are going to escape from the Donbas. They are simply surrounded and proverbially up shit's creek without a paddle.

As far as the west being united, well, now even Trump has jumped his sprocket and has called the invasion "a holocaust." Hanratty is calling on the US to act like Russia's Little Green Men and go in there to kill Russians but then deny it.

I don't think all Russians think there was no other choice but to invade. More and more are no doubt questioning that narrative. Indeed, the continued peace protests in sooooo many cities is indicative of that. Those polls? Let's just say they strike me as lots more problematic than the polls during the 2016 Michigan primary. And I think those corrupt oligarchs that prop up Putin are getting more and more apprehensive with good reason. And yea, average people are going to get hurt by sanctions. I realize that sanctions pretty much have always backfired but this time may prove different given how widespread they are being imposed and supported. Probably not a good idea to go to your local liquor store to try to buy some Russian vodka.

#5.3.3.1.1.1 Cannot recall the exact source of this, but a recent indy left analyst (Maté, Greenwald, Blumenthal?) recently reported that Zelensky, upon taking office, actually wanted to begin to implement Minsk2 but was warned off threateningly by far-right/Ukro Nazis, and so nothing happened. Also re Ukraine Nazis, they are apparently important enough such that even NPR today had a bite-sized report dealing with the far right, probably so that outlet could go on record as at least acknowledging their existence in Ukraine, with the overall implication being they were a non-trivial force but that NPR would rather not dwell too much on that fact. Going after just the 2 provinces: maybe, but Putin likely figured the nazis would just escape easily back into western Ukraine. And grabbing a military foothold in most of the country gives Russia greater bargaining power over a stubborn U gov't that has been so reluctant to give an inch in negotiations. West united: but question whether a lot of this is superficial and represents a hasty rush to judgment that will soon be regretted. Regardless, whether united or not, it would have mattered not to Russia as they are intent on enforcing their will in Ukraine and will not back down. In their view, they had no other choice. Re Russians questioning his leadership: not according to the latest polls there, that show Vlad's approval rating going up from low 60s to low 70s. I know, some might question these polls, but I can't recall their validity ever being seriously challenged in the western press. Re Trump's "holocaust" remark: he's having to backpedal a bit, recognizing that not enough of the GOP has followed his initial Putin Is A Genius remarks. On a personal note, in a major social media platform where I posted in a so-called "progressive" small group, I was accused of being a "Putin-loving Republican" for questioning US policy on Ukraine and Russia. I am apparently now considered persona au gratin, officially an unperson in the group.

Submitted by MichaelSF on Thu, 03/03/2022 - 5:45pm

sanctions

@Wally "I realize that sanctions pretty much have always backfired but this time may prove different given how widespread they are being imposed and supported."

It looks to me that Russia has been dealing with sanctions for decades as part of the U.S "soft" war. Their response has been increasing levels of autarky. If the US and allies won't let them buy something, then they work on becoming self-sufficient in that item. The USA used to be much more self-sufficient, but sold everone/everything "down the river" to where now one of our two major competitors (China) is our source for many things, including some stuff the military depends on.

I think any sanctions that might be imposed by Russia/allies in response are likely to hurt the USA/EU much more than any new (and expected/planned for) sactions on them. A quick web query returns that China and Russia are #1 and #2 world suppliers of aluminum. 1-6 for titanium are China, Russia, Japan, Kazakhstan, Ukraine and India. India seems to be leaning towards Russia and China recently, Ukraine exports are probably off the table for awhile, so what happens with Boeing when their large demand for light metals doesn't get met?

So Russia can't fly in UK airspace. I guess that means someone needs to go to France/Spain (plenty of trains in the EU) and cross into the UK that way. On the other hand, Russia covers 11 time zones and takes up a lot of the space between the UK and the far east. Who is likely to suffer more there?

Biden et alia appears to be carving out of the sanctions a spot for Russia to sell petroleum products to USA/EU. But it sounds like they then want to make Russia unable to access the payments. If that is the case, why should Russia bother to send products that are essentially going to be stolen from them?

It seems like sanctions are very effective against small/weak nations, and I'm not sure that Russia qualifies for that classification.

But that's just the views of one uncredentialed person on the Internet, make of them what you will.

#5.3.3.1.1.1.2 . . . aside from folks on this board. And as I recall, both you and I were way back when practically and maybe even being actually accused of being ToP or something or other operatives here. I'm pretty much always willing to discuss anything political and welcome most disagreement and pushback although I cringe when my positions are greviously and repeatedly misstated or my motives questioned. And I've noted again and again that Zelenskiy has found himself in a pickle where he's been forced to play politrix with some really shady right wing bastards of varying shades. Again, they constitute about 2.1 of the electorate and were unable to vote in one of their candidates into parliament. Yes, they do have a ridiculously inordinate influence. Terrorists are like that. And don't forget they have been the boldest and downright craziest fighters. Every tool serves a purpose. I don't think the bulk of the neonazis are going to escape from the Donbas. They are simply surrounded and proverbially up shit's creek without a paddle. As far as the west being united, well, now even Trump has jumped his sprocket and has called the invasion "a holocaust." Hanratty is calling on the US to act like Russia's Little Green Men and go in there to kill Russians but then deny it. I don't think all Russians think there was no other choice but to invade. More and more are no doubt questioning that narrative. Indeed, the continued peace protests in sooooo many cities is indicative of that. Those polls? Let's just say they strike me as lots more problematic than the polls during the 2016 Michigan primary. And I think those corrupt oligarchs that prop up Putin are getting more and more apprehensive with good reason. And yea, average people are going to get hurt by sanctions. I realize that sanctions pretty much have always backfired but this time may prove different given how widespread they are being imposed and supported. Probably not a good idea to go to your local liquor store to try to buy some Russian vodka.

Submitted by NYCVG on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 5:55pm

Definitely

@snoopydawg . Biden wanted this war. He cares about the Ukrainian people as much as he cares about the Afghans and the Yemeni and the Syrians and the Palestinians bombed relentlessly in Gaza. But it is doubtful that this conflict it will turn out as he planned.

Give it a few more days and Americans will tire of the suffering in a far away country. We all remember only too well how Iraq and Afghanistan ended up. Attention will go back to celebrity news.

Russia is not Afghanistan or Iraq. Russia has strengths we have not reckoned with.

Russia may not go along with our agenda and I believe, will instead fight until its aims have been achieved. Russia may see this situation, as one in which a loss will bring further impingement and I cannot see that they will agree to that.

WE need to do what is necessary to stop any further loss of life in Ukraine. The Pentagon understands full well what that is.

The rhetoric needs to be toned down. The U.S. cannot, under any circumstances, go to war with Russia. To put it in a way that popular opinion would understand, all of the Ukrainians would die if that happened. It would be bad news for the world if America entered the war in Ukraine. It’s continuing arming of it and the other rhetoric coming from various countries is exactly why Putin put the nuclear forces into play. Russia is constantly being threatened and as Putin has said, they have nowhere to retreat to. I’m seeing calls for a no fly zone over Ukraine which is the dumbest idea yet. Even as far gone as Biden’s brain is he knows what would happen if it was enforced. The sanctions could be enough to trigger Russia just like the sanctions on Japan triggered them to attack Pearl Harbor. However I can’t believe that you think this: Russia and Ukraine are fighting war that has killed a few thousand, and the U.S. is mostly not responsible for, and thus we don't have the power to stop it. Yes we are directly responsible for what is happening in Ukraine. It started when Obama overthrew Ukraine’s president who was going to take the Russian bailout instead of getting saddled with the IMF that brought austerity to Ukraine. It was further inflamed by us sending billions in weapons to them and because we wouldn’t give Russia our agreement not to admit Ukraine into NATO. Hell yes we are directly responsible for what is happening there today. Again I ask what if Russia had overthrown Mexico’s president and flooded the country with lethal weapons and then Mexico killed American ex pats there? You think we would have waited 8 years to retaliate? How can you not see that we pushed Russia to the wall? We could have insisted that Ukraine upheld the Minsk agreement not to attack Russians in the Donbas area. We could tell countries not to send weapons. We the United States of fcking America. We can insist that both sides sit down and talk. We can stop this war any time we want to. But the world’s hypocrisy is just so asinine there really are no words for it.

—

NYCVG

Submitted by humphrey on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 5:22pm

A look in the mirror should be required.

Hypocrisy https://t.co/JkBnCJAShn pic.twitter.com/41RhhYNkZX

— Rachel Pirani (@Liberty5380) March 2, 2022

Submitted by Linda Wood on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 7:51pm

gjohnsit,

Putin has been clear and consistant that what concerns him is the 5-7 minutes it will take nuclear missiles to reach his capitol from Ukraine. He has explained that that is too short a time in which to make a responsible decision on whether to launch mutually assured destruction of life on earth, but that Russia would do so if a missile were launched from Ukraine. This endangers everyone, not just Russia. He has been clear on this.

None of his statements about this have been reported by our media. Some questioners of our policy have suggested that what he wants, simply, is a Sphere of Influence. Neither Putin nor his government ever use that term. What he wants is no strategic weapons in Ukraine.

By indicating they will put nuclear weapons in Ukraine, our government has evidenced one goal: to eliminate Mutually Assured Destruction in order to destroy Russia's command centers and government without receiving retaliation. That is the only reason for placing nukes in Ukraine. 5-7 minutes might be too short a time in which to respond at all, and our government is willing to take that risk. Putin has said repeatedly that Russia will launch if missiles are launched from Ukraine, even if there is no time to verify.

I agree that there is an alternative to what Putin has done this week. It is to turn over the keys to his country, disarm, and leave. As he says, we have a knife to his throat. But he's not me. He's not a pacifist. He's not even Gorbachev. He is taking the risk that he can destroy Nazi killers in Ukraine, expose the rise of fascism in Europe represented by our color revolutions, and make the point that all people and all other life forms on earth have a right to live without being threatened by psychopaths.

I want him to disarm, leave, and let the jackals take over Russia without war. It will expose who they are. I agree with you that war is not the answer. But I understand why he is doing it, and he explained it in his speech last week.

Submitted by Snode on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 7:54pm

The US is always primed for war

or "police actions" or "peacekeeping" occupations. We covertly and not so covertly meddle in election rigging and assassinations. We are most likely the most destabilizing force in the world. Since the fall of the Soviet Union we stopped fighting the "commies" and now go after leftist leaning countries with the same fervor. We have so many entangling treaties and military bases in countries with authoritarian regimes it's only a matter of time before we're sucked into some conflict we will lose. So will Russia.

Ever since Viet Nam our wars are fought not on battlefields with armies, but town by town, street by street, house by house. Your enemy looks exactly like anyone on the street. We fight as if shelling houses, hospitals and schools will somehow vanquish the enemy. That's what our military trains to do. There is no bygones to be had. There will be IEDs and assassinations, reprisals and executions, missiles and drones. Lack of food, medical care, endless occupation. Children and civilians will be killed indiscriminately. At best the outcome will be like the Israeli/Palestinian occupation. At worst it will look like Bosnia or Syria.

There is a lot the US could do to make the world better, but out government is not in that business. We don't even care enough for our own citizens to make their lives better.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 8:41pm

Incredible

Here’s more information on how we have been plotting to get Russia to invade Ukraine and lots of other moves it’s taken to accomplish that goal. Fckers could have put that much time and effort into making America better and working for peace instead. Just imagine sitting around for years dreaming of ways to bring harm to others. Too bad that the people in Ukraine don’t understand that they are just worthless pawns and cannon fodder for sociopaths. You do want to glance at the article.

https://failedevolution.blogspot.com/2022/03/confirmed-us-imperialists-w...

—

Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.

Submitted by NYCVG on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 9:44pm

The final 3 paragraphs

@snoopydawg @snoopydawg @snoopydawg @snoopydawg of this extensive well done examination of the current conflict's roots, give us a reasonable idea about how this is likely to go.

My own view, is that Russia will intensify its efforts, particularly in the few remaining disputed southern areas and Kiev, to prevent a lengthy costly ugly war of attrition, or in plain English endless deaths.

EDIT Just added: One mission accomplished. Russia has control of Marienpol which completes the land bridge from Russia to Crimea. That's the southern area on the coast which Russia now controls. Info is on the NYT latest map.

Now on to Kiev.

—

NYCVG

Submitted by humphrey on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 10:00pm

One quibble with regards to Mariupol.

@NYCVG

The land bridge itself is completed but Mariupol is surrounded but it is infested with Azov soldiers and itself is not under control.

Submitted by Wally on Thu, 03/03/2022 - 7:23am

Fucking to End Sex

@NYCVG

My own view, is that Russia will intensify its efforts, particularly in the few remaining disputed southern areas and Kiev, to prevent a lengthy costly ugly war of attrition, or in plain English endless deaths.

Yea, well . . . . seems to me that destroying cities and killing civilians en masse to bring about peace is like fucking to end sex.

Submitted by humphrey on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 9:25pm

Yes is is incredible but it is also business as usual

@snoopydawg

I will roundaboutly explain.

First there is this op-ed by Daniel Fried is a distinguished fellow at the Atlantic Council.

The op-ed is basically the usual blather that Russia is bad and so on. It is not worth reading

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/03/01/ukraine-russia-history...

Doing some research on Daniel Fried I came up with this.

https://www.concordia.net/community/amb-daniel-fried/

In the course of his forty-year Foreign Service career, Ambassador Fried played a key role in designing and implementing American policy in Europe after the fall of the Soviet Union. As special assistant and NSC senior director for Presidents Clinton and Bush, ambassador to Poland, and assistant secretary of state for Europe (2005-09), Ambassador Fried crafted the policy of NATO enlargement to Central European nations and, in parallel, NATO-Russia relations, thus advancing the goal of Europe whole, free, and at peace. During those years, the West’s community of democracy and security grew in Europe. Ambassador Fried helped lead the West’s response to Moscow’s aggression against Ukraine starting in 2014: as State Department coordinator for sanctions policy, he crafted US sanctions against Russia, the largest US sanctions program to date, and negotiated the imposition of similar sanctions by Europe, Canada, Japan, and Australia.

Ambassador Fried became one of the US government’s foremost experts on Central and Eastern Europe and Russia. While a student, he lived in Moscow, majored in Soviet studies and history at Cornell University (BA magna cum laude 1975), and received an MA from Columbia’s Russian Institute and School of International Affairs in 1977. He joined the US Foreign Service later that year, serving overseas in Leningrad (human rights, Baltic affairs, and consular officer), and Belgrade (political officer), and in the Office of Soviet Affairs in the State Department.

As Polish desk officer in the late 1980s, Fried was one of the first in Washington to recognize the impending collapse of Communism in Poland, and helped develop the immediate response of the George H.W. Bush Administration to these developments. As political counselor at the US Embassy in Warsaw (1990-93), Fried witnessed Poland’s difficult but ultimately successful free market, democratic transformation, working with successive Polish governments.

Submitted by CB on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 10:52pm

Col. Douglas Macgregor on Putin’s

next steps in the Ukraine invasion

Col. Douglas Macgregor on Putin’s next steps in the Ukraine invasion
https://video.foxnews.com/v/6299099588001#sp=show-clips

Submitted by humphrey on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 10:19pm

I have come across videos from Alexander Mercouris

previously

@CB

Unfortunately although his topics seem interesting his presentation is distracting and for the most part far too lengthy for me to watch. That said it is probably a good source for information for some people.

Submitted by CB on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 10:41pm

You will find the first 3-4 minutes

@humphrey
very interesting. "Col. Macgregor keeps it real on Fox News."

Submitted by humphrey on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 11:26pm

Here is a link to his youtube channel.

@humphrey .

Thanks I did watch and the assessment was correct and obviously not listened to.

https://www.youtube.com/c/AlexanderMercourisReal/videos

Most of which I have not watched.

Submitted by CB on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 10:38pm

Ukrainian War Crimes

WARNING EXTREMELY GRAPHIC MATERIAL

Day 7 – major moves in the south, human right report suppressed
...
The Russian Embassy in Geneva has released a document entitled “War Crimes and Crime against Humanity Committed by the Ukrainian Military-Poltiical Leadership in the Donbass” and made it available here:

https://geneva.mid.ru/en_US/web/geneva_en/donbasstragedy

Their servers are now also under DDoS attack, as are most Russian government resources and, in yet another illegal act of international aggression, most Russian media outlets in the West.
...
I have also uploaded it here:

https://archive.org/details/presentation-ukrainian-war-crimes

https://archive.org/download/presentation-ukrainian-war-crimes/Presentat...
...

Submitted by humphrey on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 11:40pm

The Ukrainian authorities seem to have a demented wish

To see the slaughter of their own citizens.

@CB

Uh…still a war crime. https://t.co/4y24bVOux6

— Jason Jones (@DPRKJones) March 2, 2022

Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky says Ukraine will release prisoners with military experience if willing to join fight against Russia: Reuters #RussiaUkraineConflict pic.twitter.com/Ezhb1lviVs

— ANI (@ANI) February 28, 2022

We will give weapons to anyone who wants to defend the country. Be ready to support Ukraine in the squares of our cities.

— Володимир Зеленський (@ZelenskyyUa) February 24, 2022

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl60ATxnnr4]

Submitted by CB on Thu, 03/03/2022 - 12:32am

Ukraine: Nazism, denazification,

@humphrey
banderovets, residential area artillery, and guns for everyone
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG1fuhKwXVA]

Ukraine Falls - Why Russia has Taken Ukraine
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2GjuGDw08c]

Submitted by humphrey on Thu, 03/03/2022 - 12:57am

It is certainly difficult to differentiate between fact and

fiction.

@CB

#UPDATE Russian forces have taken over the Ukrainian city of Kherson, local officials confirm, the first major urban centre to fall since Moscow invaded a week ago.

"The (Russian) occupiers are in all parts of the city and are very dangerous," Gennady Lakhuta writes on Telegram pic.twitter.com/GJz7Bdq8j7

— AFP News Agency (@AFP) March 3, 2022

The Russian government promised to supply all Ukrainian cities it controls with humanitarian aid, which was met with doubt due to logistical problems in the first days of the war - but it looks like Russia is delivering, at least in Kherson. First aid convoy has arrived pic.twitter.com/J8g1LU6nPm

— Russians With Attitude (@RWApodcast) March 3, 2022

Of course fiction is winning in the eyes of the MSM

Submitted by snoopydawg on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 11:04pm

Another word salad from Kamala

.@VP Harris on why Biden’s still buying oil from Russia: "Understanding that right now on the issue of energy, our allies have stood firm and unified in a way that many of the pundits didn’t predict would happen, to ensure that we are unified in our approach to this issue." pic.twitter.com/vyiHauZOMm

— Tom Elliott (@tomselliott) March 2, 2022

Someone ought to start giving her the questions in advance so she doesn’t sound so ignorant on the ones she’s asked.

—

Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.

Submitted by humphrey on Wed, 03/02/2022 - 11:50pm

One heartbeat away from being the President.

@snoopydawg

Woe is us! Thankx Obama.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Thu, 03/03/2022 - 12:23am

Ain’t that scary as hell?

@humphrey

I’m not sure I’ve ever seen her saying anything coherent yet. But she is a great side kick to the bumbling Biden.

—

Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.

Submitted by Cassiodorus on Thu, 03/03/2022 - 7:31am

But not to worry --

-- the oligarchs will protect us from nasty, nasty information.

Ignorance is strength y'know.

—

The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.

Submitted by eyo on Thu, 03/03/2022 - 1:45pm

"outage is so universal"

@Cassiodorus @Cassiodorus hi, did you notice that typo in this essay? LOL I'm pretty sure it's supposed to read outRAGE, but my two-minutes filter is kinda stuck on repeat so it could just be me. Smothered in Bernays. saucy sauce

Edit: seems to have been corrected, thanks.

over and over