Open Thread - Thurs 03 Feb 2022 - Experts

Everyone, in any society, no matter where or when they live(d), is exposed to, trained in, and affected by their culture, their 'group think', and the propaganda fed to them from the time they are born to the time they die. I recently realized again just how early this starts, and how much our minds really are manipulated in everything from very small thoughts to very large ideas when I had a short exposure to what is overall a very nice children's cartoon.

I haven't had a TV since soon after 9/11. In fact, the reporting about 9/11 was the last thing I watched on my own TV. After 9/11 happened, and I saw the towers come down, heard and saw the asinine responses from the government and the media, my heart dropped even further into the hole the suffering and deaths of all those people created. I knew we, as a country, were screwed. The powers that be would use 9/11 as an excuse to f*ck us all over, and so they did.

But even with no TV hanging on the wall, I still have to view it sometimes. TVs are everywhere, on all the time, blaring whatever they blare at every thing and every person. A few days ago, the TV I was being forced to experience was showing a children's cartoon on PBS. This cartoon is overall, pretty good, so I wasn't annoyed having to listen to it while I waited for the people I was visiting to do what they were doing and get back to me.

The kids in the cartoon were upset because they'd seen something online that showed some dentist doing some painful and mean thing to someone's teeth with a drill. So the kids had decided they were terrified of the dentist, and weren't going. Eventually the dentist confronts them, laughs gently at them, and tells them they need to consult with the experts (the dentists) to see how dentists really work, and promises them the drill is really tiny, it won't hurt, blah, blah. I didn't pay much attention after that because I was sort of laughing and choking at the same time. I'd seldom before seen, had it slapped in my face, how indoctrinated we are from childhood. "Ask the 'expert' to explain why the 'expert' is right and you are wrong!" "Trust the 'expert'!" "They know and you don't!"

The cartoon is saying, I think, that knowledge you gain yourself (in this case, online) is often wrong, that your own senses may be lying to you, that any expert in any field is better than your own gut instincts, and more. And it's teaching this to kids.

The thing is this sort of 'expert' consultation can be correct with respect to dentists and other professionals (including myself as an archaeologist?). On the other hand, it can be wrong, and certainly if we are led to think we should always tailor our thoughts and feelings to what the 'experts' advise we are going to be disappointed and upset. There's another aspect too; 'experts' are picked by those in power. Crikey, don't pick your own 'expert' to follow! I don't know where to go with this conflict between 'expert' and thought and learning and opinion and experience, except to think that one must evaluate the 'expert' and their wisdom and/or advice as well as one can. If the expert is the dentist who basically broke all my molars trying to get out my wisdom teeth, I dunno, I don't think I'd trust that guy. If it's the dentist who fixed my broken molars, yea, I'd trust him. We have to trust our own feelings, and expect to get into bad situations from time to time, through no fault of our own. We have to be strong enough to recognize that we are in a bad situation, and strong enough to get ourselves out of it, if we can.

I've been going through my vinyl collection, digitizing the music of my young adulthood. I can see how that music helped develop my thoughts and ideals, and still reflects who I am. Here's a couple songs from a band from the SF Bay Area, dating to the late 1970's early 1980's. This band never hit it big, but I think these two songs still reflect America - then and now. Enjoy the music!

Inside my Head - the Imposters
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zkDhET4tG0]

King of America - the Imposters
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CuzZWGOyDw]

So, what moments of realization have you had recently about our culture? Let us know in the Open Thread below - and remember, everything is interesting if you dive deep enough!

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Lookout's picture

...and that gets to the issue. We have to carefully select the experts we trust, and understand sometimes even they are mistaken.

For example in the case of diet, the Harvard nutrition dept.are primarily plant based 7th day Adventists. They push an agenda which many accept as gospel. I look to the functional doctors who I find more reliable.
The foundation of functional medicine is the use of food as a first-line therapy. The right nutrition, combined with lifestyle and behavioral interventions, will help you take charge of your health. In 2014, Cleveland Clinic was the first academic medical center in the country to establish a dedicated functional medicine program.
https://www.ifm.org/functional-medicine/what-is-functional-medicine/

I've had similar experience with the pandemic doctors, as well as Earth Scientists. You have to use judgement to select the people you trust on all topics.

You also bring up the interesting point of childhood imprinting and development...
Our first five years of life lay down the foundation for the rest of our lives.

Between birth and 5 years old, 90 percent of a child’s brain development occurs, and at a lightning-fast pace. Every sight, smell, sound and sensation makes an impact. Long before most children step foot into a classroom, neurons are building networks, cognition is exploding, language is developing, and the foundations are being laid for a lifetime of learning.

Outside of that five-year window, you lose opportunities you may never get back. Children who don’t develop sufficient language skills in those first years are up to six times more likely to experience reading problems in school. When children fall behind in reading, every other aspect of education suffers.

There's a reason for happy meals and fast food, cereal, and sugary drink ads targeted at children. Just look at Americans...they've been effective.

Well thanks for your expert OT. Hope folks in the Eastern US weather today's storm. We're just due rain thankfully. I HATE ice storms...the trees breaking sound like gunshots when we have one. Take care and be well!

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

Sima's picture

@Lookout
I hadn't thought about the development of the brain and of thinking when one is young. Yes, those first five years matter. I wonder if it made a difference for me that my father refused to have a TV for my first six or seven years. Yes, my stubbornness is inherited! On the other hand, we went to Mcdonalds all the time when I was a kid, it was a cheap relief for Mom to not have to make dinner. I haven't been to a McDonald's in like 20 years now :). Stubborn.

Diets and what people eat and what we are recommended to eat is so... fraught with problems some times. It really does depend upon the experts, sometimes.

Thanks for the great comment!

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

TV is a vast wasteland, especially during the daytime. Almost everyone my age, born in the 1950's probably have always had a TV, except if they are like you and choose not to have one. This means that we have been propagandized since birth.

When someone claims to be an "expert," I usually disregard what they have to say. Currently, it seems with the internet, everyone is now an expert on every subject.

I too have had enough bad doctors to know that even some of those trained to be experts in medicine are full of shit.

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@Enchantress was some surgery performed by the expert who was on the staff at a huge dental college in Houston. He taught the students oral surgery.
My next to the worst experience was with a reaction to the anesthetic for a surgery. The dentist's expertise was anesthesia.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

usefewersyllables's picture

@on the cusp

Had one at about age 9 who decided to extract a molar without benefit of anesthesia. That didn't go well. Then, about 5 years ago, or maybe 10, had one who did a root canal- on the wrong tooth. Best part of that one was that my dental insurance at the time had preapproved the procedure, but then de-approved it (since it was performed on the wrong tooth, after all). So I ended up on the hook for a couple of grand- that weren't exactly burning a hole in my wallet at the time. I will only go see one about every 2-3 years, now, when things really hurt all to hellandgone. And I'm in the cold-sweats the whole time. Not a fan.

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Twice bitten, permanently shy.

Sima's picture

@usefewersyllables
I too seldom go to the dentist, maybe every five years if that. My trusted dentist retired (the one who fixed my broken molars). His replacement was/is... I dunno, my parents go to him and seem to be ok with him but I can't stand him. He insisted that one of my fixed teeth was still broken (it's not, the infection that sometimes happens around that tooth is due to an unfixable ear issue). When I refused to take the drugs he prescribed, and refused to get the tooth 'fixed', he came into the room and said snidely, "Ohh, the woman who won't trust me, who won't care for her teeth..." I walked out. Never went back.

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Sima's picture

@Enchantress

I agree with all you wrote in your comment. Too many medical experts are full of shit, same with the internet. I wonder how we learn to determine which experts to trust, or if we ever do?

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Last night's New Episode---back after a long hiatus----dealt with Authoritarian rule ruthlessly, no hold barred. Nazis, plenty of German which Mimi will understand but the rest of us can get from context.

The Resolution was that "Sometimes to end a conflict, you have to admit you have been wrong."

Cave. Negotiate.

Sanest 1/2 hour I've seen on TV for quite some time.

Let's hope the various Premiers of the Canadian Provinces, as well as the Trudeau government wake up soon and negotiate. Saskatchewan and Alberta are pretty much there, although still in some denial.

The Canadian Police cannot remove Truckers in Big Rigs and the Canadian Armed Forces have declined to join the Police.

CAF will clear roads of Snow, Not people.

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NYCVG

Sima's picture

@NYCVG

'The Resolution was that "Sometimes to end a conflict, you have to admit you have been wrong."'

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

usefewersyllables's picture

this is all an expression of the War on Truth®™.

In the absence of Truth, there is only opinion. And in that environment, whoever shouts the most repeatedly and loudly will likely come out the winner. Now that money is speech, the final decision inevitably comes down to who has the deepest pockets and the biggest megaphone (or perhaps the most salacious details: if it bleeds, it leads).

Once the concept of objective Truth has been properly deprecated, then the people will simply believe anything they are told- anything whatsoever. And they'll pigpile all over you if you have the temerity to disagree.

I'm reminded of CIA Director William Casey's marvelously concise 1981 statement:

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false."

We're there. We have finally arrived upon those sunny shores. Now, for every learned person who holds a belief, you can find an equally learned person who has learned how to Make Money by professing an opposite belief. The entire concept of expertise in a field, or of science itself being able to provide a mechanism to uncover a facet of Truth, is dead.

Time to Godwin myself. It is Goebbels' big lie (German: große Lüge) writ large:

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

Just imagine how it would have been if he'd had a stacked, statuesque blonde Aryan goddess as the figurehead for his 24/7 cable channel. They'd have won that war.

We as members of this flawed society seem to have now all become Flat Earthers, to one degree or another, and I don't see that improving anytime at all soon. Perhaps this really is as a direct result of our entry into end-stage capitalism. Perhaps the next cycle will improve things, as the cockroaches evolve out of the rubble. We sure as hell haven't.

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Twice bitten, permanently shy.

Sima's picture

@usefewersyllables
that this really is end stage capitalism. I don't see any heroes coming to 'rescue' us. But then, do we really deserve rescue? I don't know. Gjohnsit's post entitled The United States has Already Collapsed is scary and I agree with it, despite how scary it is.

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4 users have voted.

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

usefewersyllables's picture

It was a balmy -6degF this morning. And there's this:
Screenshot 2022-02-03 at 7.51.02 AM.jpg

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6 users have voted.

Twice bitten, permanently shy.

cultural modification of an individual, group, or people by adapting to or borrowing traits from another culture (re: media)

or

the process by which a human being acquires the culture of a particular society from infancy
(what is the role of educators?)

whereas culture = the act of developing the intellectual and moral faculties especially by education

quoting bush the younger ... is our children learning yet?

thanks for the OT Simi!

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Sima's picture

@QMS
Very good points. I didn't even think to put this in anthropological terms. Doh!

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

enhydra lutris's picture

but thanks for the OT. I see QMS tossed out "acculturation", and in the same vein I'll toss out "Weltanschauung", but really, there are volumes that could be written here. Always remember, however, that argumentum ad verecundiam is a fallacy, experts can err and the untutored can speak profound truths. More to the point is the associations and connotations that we all learn, and the fact that we all learn slightly (or even grossly) differing variants and in a different manner.

One thing that popped into my head is a pair of seemingly antithetical phrases from my childhood. Generations were raised on the dichotomy "Better dead than Red" and "Better Red than dead", both of which presuppose and equate "RED" with something that will absorb or kill you as the case may be. Generations, through that and other misdirection and misrepresentation learned to hate and fear communism (and socialism) without having ever read Kapital and The Manifesto, or either, or any of Marx or Engels, for that matter. Communism/socialism is simply a set of lrgely undefined bad things to them.

Another thing is the Olmecs. At first, merely the people who made the giant heads, we achieved a certain understanding of them and their culture through investigation and interpretation. Eventually Olmec "meant" a whole encyclopedia entry worth of characteristics and "history". Part of that was their role (or not) as the mother culture of the Maya, another people who exist as a whole encyclopedia entry worth of characteristics and history. Those compendious entries were, for a long time, what those words meant. Today, however, it looks to be quite possible that both entries are largely wrong in various particulars, rendering certain things taken for granted as part of what those words meant by many experts to be simply wrong. Science can work like that. However we may face decades of the kind of rear guard action that faces many or all such radical shifts in understanding, witness "Clovis", another vast basket of beliefs and features rolled into one word that retains some basic characteristics while abandoning or modifying others, at times seemingly solely to preserve those basics.

None of that really goes anywhere except for two ancient precepts:
1) The true experts know the right questions, not so much the answers
2) Question everything

be well and have a good one

edit - inserted an omitted word and changed an improper blockquote into italics

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Sima's picture

@enhydra lutris
'None of that really goes anywhere except for two ancient precepts:
1) The true experts know the right questions, not so much the answers
2) Question everything'

And that's exactly where to start with finding out which 'experts' one follows. Question always, listen to what the experts are asking, and how they are trying to answer those questions. It takes work, one can't be complacent or fall back on the agreed upon thinking. And that's so very difficult at times.

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

@Sima Hilariously, I am a designated expert on "reasonable attorney's fees for the community", meaning, "don't come from Houston expecting to get $50,000 to handle a divorce and custody matter. In this community, by damn, you get $5,000. If that hurts, stay in Houston."
I have found the experts upon whom I relay can often be proven inadequate to the task over time. I am into history, some graduate study after obtaining a bachelor's. Seems some of my professor's missed some things here and there.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

a dupe

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

enhydra lutris's picture

@on the cusp

but in this day and age I think I'll pass. I have written that myself and then, upon looking at it, contemplated the wisecracks that would be launched my way if various identifiable individuals had read it, especially my sister or late brother.

be well and have a good one

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

@enhydra lutris C'mon, man! Sick humor is still humor!

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4 users have voted.

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981