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It’s become difficult to talk about politics.

That’s an understatement.

Reasons why it’s difficult (not a complete list):

1. The extreme tribalism of American politics

This is not the same thing as saying that the American people are divided on policy. While Americans do have differences of opinion on policy, of course, it’s surprising exactly how much the American people agree on. They would all like Medicare for All and a living wage, for example. They would all like Social Security to continue, and perhaps to be expanded. Many of them would also like to re-industrialize their country and spend less time and money running around the globe killing people. Among people under 45, there's even considerable support for ending the petrochemical economy.

Unfortunately, none of this agreement prevents the extreme tribalism of American politics, which has less and less to do with policy as time goes on. In fact, the 2020 election was often described by corporate media pundits as a post-policy election—Trump’s evil was so great that we couldn’t afford the luxury of policy concerns. (What Trump’s evil could consist of, if not bad policy, was not particularly clear). This example shows how loyalty to one’s political tribe can be used to direct people away from discussions of policy, and even to suggest that such discussions are faintly immoral. If you keep talking policy when we need to get rid of Trump, you must not really be loyal to liberals, the Democratic party, or democracy itself. There’s an evil man destroying the country! That’s all you should care about. You’d think that, if he’s destroying the country and you want to save it, all of that would play out through competing policies—so the most loyal thing imaginable, and the most rational, would be to talk policy. But apparently, you’d be wrong.

Tribal loyalty has actually begun to replace policy as the origin point of people’s politics. Not long ago, people would decide which politicians to support based on those politicians’ stated policy positions. Not that looks and charisma played no part in people’s choice of leaders—but even if you thought George W. Bush looked like a nice guy to have a beer with, it’s unlikely you’d vote for him in 2004 if you were against the Iraq War. Loyalty to political leaders was based on those leaders continuing to fight for desired policies. Loyalty was lost when those leaders abandoned their policy goals, or betrayed the values that underlay them.

Now people decide which political tribe they’re in, and give loyalty to the leaders of that tribe simply because *they are* the leaders of that tribe. Said leaders can do or say almost anything without losing the loyalty of their partisans, because their partisans aren’t basing their fealty on anything the politician does, but rather on who she is: Democrat or Republican? Progressive or mainstream? When identity politics is thrown into the mix, as it often is, it allows participants to imagine that they’re fighting a grand moral battle simply by defending politicians against their detractors on Twitter. A fight against bigotry that ignores policy, talks mainly about famous people, and resides primarily online is more like a Punch-and-Judy show than a March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom, but don’t say so, or you will be called a Nazi. Or maybe a Russian agent.

2. An often unacknowledged but very serious impediment to talking politics in the U.S. is the forty-year assault on the American people’s time and energy, accomplished by reducing their spending power. If you are struggling every day to make your electric bill, you’ll have a lot less time to contemplate politics or anything else. Idle hands are the revolutionary’s playground. We wouldn’t want the people to actually reflect on the politics they’re living in. If they did, we might end up living in a republic.

3. The third factor that makes it difficult to talk politics in America is the forty-year assault on reason that began with the rise of neo-conservatism in the 80s. This assault was made on several different fronts:

a) Defunding education and then giving corporations influence over curricula (and school
food--and yes, that matters)

b) Gaslighting academics (this was done in many ways; “political correctness” was a
favorite)

c) Directly discrediting the notion of reason itself. This was primarily accomplished by
having prominent right-wing politicians and media figures ignore the rules of debate that
everyone else took for granted. Left-wingers and independents would use logic and
evidence to disprove neoconservative arguments, and the neocon in question would simply
act as if the debate wasn’t over and that, moreover, they were winning it. (This once
spurred Sen Moynihan to famously exclaim “You can have your own opinions, but you can’t
have your own facts.”)

Through these and other means, the eighties popularized the notion that using reason to decide what was true made you a stodgy boring loser at best or an ungodly atheist at worst. Either you were Alan Colmes or the Devil. Which it was depended on which kind of right-winger you were talking to. Unfortunately, over the decades, reason has gotten more discredited, not less. Irrational and fallacious argument has become more widespread. It’s worse now than it was in 2007 when Al Gore’s book The Assault on Reason got published and described a lot of this. It’s getting to the point that ordinary people are losing the ability to make reasoned arguments, or even to imagine that they ought to.

As an anonymous White House staffer said during the Bush administration, “We’re an empire now, and we create our own reality.” Well, apparently we’ve now spread that attitude to the general public.

"EarthGov has promised a job to anyone who wants one. So, if someone doesn't have a job, they must not want one."
...
"And when exactly did all this happen?"

"When we rewrote the dictionary."

Even worse, the New Age fascism celebrated in those comments ("we're an empire, so we get to create our own reality!") no longer resides solely within the confines of the Republican party. Democrats, even progressive ones, are just as willing to replace rational discourse with authoritarian gibber as Republicans are--they just do it for different reasons. Better reasons, I suppose, at least if you're talking about ordinary Democrats rather than professional ones. But there is no reason good enough to abandon reason. In fact, neoconservative cultural norms seem to have infected both parties. That is the dismal legacy of the Trump era. That, and a lot of people unnecessarily dead of COVID-19.

These days, it’s hard to tell definitively what is true about the American public, which most of us encounter primarily through digital means or corporate broadcast media, but it certainly seems as if the reality-based contingent among us is in danger of becoming a minority. At the very least, we’re in danger of being drowned out by the noise pollution of irrational argument.

What does this noise pollution consist of?

4. Character assassination and “gotcha” moments, which have become a secondary currency of our culture. Politics is like a Hogwarts competition in which you garner points for your House by making the most successful character assassinations and coining the most circulated “gotchas.” Digital technology which I, at least, welcomed for its wonderful promise of revolutionizing communication—which, in fact, I believed would contribute to a broader and more expansive democracy—has played a terrible role in encouraging this behavior. Whatever I love about the Internet, I have to concede that it’s a very good tool for heaping opprobrium on a chosen target. Social media, in particular, seems to provide a fruitful growth medium for character assassination and flamewars.

5. Finally, it is difficult for me, personally, to talk about politics because I don’t assume that most of American politics is free-range, nor that most political groups are organic communities. I assume that a great deal of perception and opinion management is taking place in American politics. I don’t go quite so far as the old pro wrestling adage “If you see it, it’s a work (faked);” there are still authentic voices out there, by which I mean people who are saying something because they believe it, rather than because someone bullied or bribed them into saying it. It wasn’t that long ago that there were even a few federal politicians working off script (they’re mostly gone now, or parroting the same talking points as everyone else). However, the official “news” seems to be primarily a scripted affair, or, to cite pro wrestling again, a matter of talking points given to the performer, who is then allowed to improvise on a theme. Interestingly, a recent court decision openly acknowledges this:

an Obama-appointed federal judge, Cynthia Bashant, dismissed the lawsuit on the ground that even Maddow's own audience understands that her show consists of exaggeration, hyperbole, and pure opinion, and therefore would not assume that such outlandish accusations are factually true even when she uses the language of certainty and truth when presenting them (“literally is paid Russian propaganda").

https://greenwald.substack.com/p/a-court-ruled-rachel-maddows-viewers

Trying to talk to people who don't see that political discourse is largely engineered is like stepping out my front door, seeing troop movements on my street, trying to talk about it to one of my neighbors, and getting the response: "What are you talking about? Those are just some people out for a walk!"

It makes it difficult to have a conversation. ("But those guys are marching in lockstep! And they're wearing riot gear!")

The non-official news, mainly located in You Tube and Rokfin shows and podcasts? Well, that’s where the fight, such as it is, is occurring. It’s one of the few places remaining that isn’t entirely, or nearly entirely, scripted. The rationalists on these platforms are doughty, but the fight is not going particularly well, partly because the platforms themselves can be weaponized against users anytime the corporate board of Google or Twitter wants to—and partly because of the age-old problem of infiltration. Ringers.

I’m almost at 1500 words, so I will leave my discussion of infiltration for my next essay. It’s a doozy of a topic, anyway, which will probably take another 1500 words all by itself. Short version: infiltration works really well. Ringers tie movements and organizations into knots. That’s why bastards keep using them. But we might be able to identify certain patterns that would allow us to fall for their bullshit less often.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

How are y'all doing?

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13 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Also have watched political discourse disintegrate into brainwashed BS.
The demise of reason and rationale is disheartening, but not unanticipated,
given the non-stop assault on truth and reality.
As I quoted Firesign Theater in another thread the other day...

Politics: Where the ability to lie is no liability.

Thanks for the OT!

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@QMS

yet. That's the thing that keeps me fighting.

It's actually heartening how many people still respond rationally, given the circumstances. I should remember that.

Great to see you, QMS.

Didn't Firesign Theater also famously say, "I thought we beat the fascists"?

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13 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@QMS

was prescient:

"The League of Women Voters is withdrawing its sponsorship of the presidential debate scheduled for mid-October because the demands of the two campaign organizations would perpetrate a fraud on the American voter," League President Nancy M. Neuman said today.

"It has become clear to us that the candidates' organizations aim to add debates to their list of campaign-trail charades devoid of substance, spontaneity and honest answers to tough questions," Neuman said. "The League has no intention of becoming an accessory to the hoodwinking of the American public."

https://www.lwv.org/newsroom/press-releases/league-refuses-help-perpetra...

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19 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

great description

A now-obsolete sense of the word wink is "to close one's eyes," and "hoodwink" once meant to cover the eyes of someone, such as a prisoner, with a hood or blindfold. ("Hoodwink" was also once a name for the game of blindman's buff.) This 16th-century term soon came to be used figuratively for veiling the truth.

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Lookout's picture

...to my way of thinking. I once thought my vote, involvement, and participation mattered. However, I now see the entire system as a sham run by multinational corporations and oligarchs. We are a war based empire not a democracy...demockracy is a purposeful illusion sold to the people to mollify them, and the tribalism of which you speak is promoted to keep the people from seeing the monster our country has become (and perhaps always was) as they blame "the other" for the problems.

Here in the buckle of the Bible belt, it is rare to ever encounter a person who isn't captured by the forces of dis/misinformation. However, most do agree with sensible policy - end the wars, medicare for all, living wage and jobs program. You just have to divorce the conversation from the red-blue, Trump good-Trump bad divide. People's minds are broken when you tread that ground.

Sadly I see no escape other than the coming ecosystem collapse. Perhaps that will re-adjust our priorities, but I'm not sure about that either. Not to be Debbie downer, but reality is what it is, and the US is a failed experiment.

On a positive note, the weekend weather was great! This AM it was mid-60's at Trade Day. Bought a really nice solar oven for $25. I'm going to set it up at the camp house (party central for us). I need to mow between the showers this week and reclaim the appearance of civilization. Got the road pulled back this weekend making it easier to drive. Always something!

Hope you and yours are doing well and enjoying good health. Looks like Elsa has you in its sights. Take care!

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16 users have voted.

“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

@Lookout
Such events are more associated with brigandage and autocracy than democracy. "You want to eat? Follow the man on the white horse!"

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7 users have voted.

I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@The Voice In the Wilderness

The government's attitude and behavior about climate confirms me in my belief that they are an autocracy.

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12 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Lookout

I'm not too worried about Elsa, except that I hope there isn't a bad storm surge in my beloved old stomping grounds (Tampa/St.Pete).

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6 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

enhydra lutris's picture

some hidden grain of truth in the statement that everything is politics, but that simply makes it easier to dismiss.

The rise of gotcha culture and owning (insert person or group) has become such a major part of discourse that is has become the pre-eminent characteristic thereof. The result is all kinds of internet/facebook/twitter hero wannabees striving to crank out their daily quota of gotchas so badly that most of the ones they post aren't, but they and their aficionados still brandish them about proudly bragging about how they prove that (target) is (moron/crook/liar/hypocrite/whatever). This is largely accomplished by simple sophistry, semantics and fallacious argumentation or assertion, relying heavily on taking things out of context and/or willfully misinterpreting words, phrases and/or statements. As ever, the disappearance of the word "some" from our discourse, or its willful elision even when originally present plays a big role in this.

Gotta go get my pizza dough made and rising and do other morning routines, so I'm off for now.

be well and have a good one

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@enhydra lutris

I wish I could eat pizza!

You're right that people make online careers out of this sort of thing.

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10 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

The Liberal Moonbat's picture

Could you tell me more about this, and where "political correctness" comes from, and what to do about it? It would be very useful to know - I'm too young to remember the first round (I heard about it at the time, but it made little to no sense, and certainly wasn't the scourge it is now - just the butt of jokes and fuel for Rush Limbaugh's career).

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In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.

Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!

I try to stay non-committal in public. I have clients who are elected officials from both parties, also the Dem party chairperson, and it does my business no good to say anything. I don't even put up signs anymore.
I realized when I was a teen that the air we breath, the water we drink, is controlled by politics. What I can to realize only in my 40's was that politics is about donors to politicians. What I am now realizing in my 60's is donors are the government, and they run the place to suit them, as I would, if I could.
I would just run it differently, for sure.
But I will never have that chance. I doubt anything I do involving politics will ever make any difference whatsoever. For me, talking politics is to discover how little my chat buddy realizes they are being propagandized to oblivion. They want to fight neighbors about abortion and flags and kneeling during the anthem, and there is simply no point in taking the discussion towards policies that might keep us all safer, healthier, more educated, and happier.
Great OT, ma'am.

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6 users have voted.

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@on the cusp

Smile

The fight that isn't yet lost is the fight for the independence of the human mind.

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0 users have voted.

"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver