The Online Graveyard of The Progressive Movement

Until a couple of years ago I used to frequent a website known as the online liberal bastion the world over. At the beginning, I used to just read essays posted by other users/members, many of which I found to be very informative, compelling, inspiring, and motivating. Eventually I became a regular contributor, posting essays about issues I found interesting, including the progressive movement, Occupy Wall Street, social justice, war and peace, government corruption, warranteless surveillance, the media, and (peaceful) protest strategies and tactics.

Once I became a prolific writer at the site, I eventually built a following and my essays started getting noticed via the site's (user) rating system. That's when things got interesting!

As people familiar with my writing would know, I placed a lot of emphasis on issues related to government corruption, the propagandist effects of the corporate media conglomerate, and social justice. As I kept writing about these topics, and as my essays became more popular, a small group of users started hijacking the comments' section. Now, having been an Internet user for many years I was very familiar with trolls and the like, but it wasn't something I was expecting to see at that site, again, known to be a safe haven for liberals and progressives.

But once the (organized) trolling pattern manifested itself, I started asking myself if perhaps my focus on government corruption and the use of propaganda to manipulate the population were somehow making some "key players" at the site uncomfortable. After all, once one really takes the time to research issues related to government corruption, is not hard to conclude that the entire political system is rigged, and that that includes both major political parties, which I call "corporatist parties."

As I continued writing and conducting research I would eventually read lots of articles about the Snowden leaked files; about the Stratfor files leaked by Jeremy Hammond. I read many articles by Glenn Greenwald. I conducted lots of research from WikiLeaks documents. I learned about how the national security apparatus monitors, infiltrates and disrupts social justice groups. I did a lot of research about the techniques they use, about "cognitive infiltration," about different tactics used against social justice activists characterized as "radicals," "realists," "idealists," and "opportunists."

Here's the thing: the more research I did about these subjects, and the more I wrote about them, the more hostile and relentless the trolls at the site became (at the time the popularity of my essays reached their peak). I found that curious, and then started analyzing what the trolls were doing, and eventually came to the conclusion they were using text-book "Propaganda techniques," including ad hominem, bandwagon, and other logical fallacies.

Now, at this point I'm not going to ask you (the reader) to agree with my conclusion or allusion to the possibility that somehow the trolls were professional propagandists, or were somehow targeting me as an organized group sanctioned by the sites management, including the owner. At this point I'd like to transition into a more general argument...

In the two-plus years after I stopped posting essays at the site, I haven't had the need or desire to visit it. After all, I had concluded that the site was extremely toxic in its insidiousness when it came to manipulating its unsuspecting (liberal) user base. However, for the last week-and-a-half, I've visited the site quite a few times to read posts from people I'd come to know and respect; mainly fellow progressives.

And guess what? I've seen the exact same pattern, which motivated me to write this essay you're reading -- as a warning.

As many readers familiar with these topics may know, we are currently facing a very serious crisis when it comes to democracy and the rule of law in this country. Researchers from Princeton University released a study not long ago which concluded that the U.S. has transitioned into an oligarchy. All levers of power (government, media, military) have been either captured by corporatist cartels and wealthy individuals, or have been highly compromised.

In the face of this reality, social justice groups have mobilized throughout the country, including groups like Black Lives Matters (for which I have great respect because of their non-partisan strategic and confrontational approach), and many others. And of course, there is the Bernie Sanders' candidacy, which has tapped into "the movement" for social justice.

Given this reality, and given the (corporate-controlled, for profit) national security apparatus' well-known propensity to monitor, infiltrate, and disrupt social justice movement, there has never been a more important moment in time (in recent history) for activists to be able to connect with each other, educate themselves about the true nature of the system, form bonds, and coalesce into a movement that share a long-term strategic goal of changing the system at the root level.

Getting back to the online destination I'm discussing here, it is my view that at the end of the day it doesn't really matter if the well-organized disruption (constant and relentless trolling) is being done by professional propagandists (corporate, national security, whomever) or because of a confluence of interests that results in something closer to Edward S. Herman and Noam Chomsky's "Propaganda Model" (conceptual model in political economy to explain how propaganda and systemic biases function in mass media), at the end of the day the damage (it does to social justice activists, progressives, and the movement) is the same.

The constant trolling, the bias in rules enforcement, the hostility, the intimidation, the double-standards, the insidious appeals to progressives' sensitivities ends up acting as a powerful disrupting force against the movement.

When it comes to the site's insidiousness, on the one hand it allows the posting of material by progressive writers, some of them whom may be considered controversial (by the site's standards). It purports to promote LGBTQ rights, women's rights, workers' rights, diversity.

But in closer (and careful) analysis, when it comes to people's ability to use the site to help them coalesce into an effective and strategic movement, the site serves as a sort of "disruptor," interfering with the ability of the movement to "close the circuit."

On the other hand, when it comes to pushing the pro-establishment (Neoliberal) narrative, I see no such organized, sanctioned disruption (overall). This is why I consider the site a tool of the establishment, in every sense of the word. The dishonesty and manipulation users are exposed to in that site are toxic.

I'd like to highlight the context in which I'm writing this today: At one point I wrote hundreds of essays at that site, and as of today, it has been over two years since I've visited (other than on a handful of occasions). I believe that having had that two-plus year time-frame has given me an even better perspective when it comes to confirming my conclusions about the site's effect users.

My final conclusion is that anybody expecting the site to be a place where progressives can come together to learn, organize, and strengthen the movement will be disappointed. To the contrary, because of its insidiousness, I consider it a graveyard of progressivism.

I don't expect I'll be writing about that site again, ever, since I see no reason to visit. But hopefully anybody wondering what's wrong with that site can read this essay and consider my conclusions. It would hopefully clarify what they may already know or suspect.

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Cassiodorus's picture

a website is only as good as its owner.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

maggid's picture

will allow her webiste to become better than she is.

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The marriage between capitalism and democracy is over. –Slavoj Zizek

It was a joy to see your name here. I enjoyed your posts at GOS back in the day. I saw some screen names that I thought could have been you. I, for one, am really eager to see your stuff over here. Best wishes for the future!

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"The working class mind is strange and unpredictable." -- Ty Lookwell

Ray Pensador's picture

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www.RayPensador.com
When you boil it all down, the number one step you can take to get out from under the fascist boot of the oligarchy is to stop subjecting yourself to the the U.S. corporate news media. It is a powerful psyops weapon.

importer's picture

your essays with great interest and was pleased at your willingness to respond to those who commented on same, whether pro or con.

I believe many of these entities were set up in the early 2000's, not as "progressive" sites, although that is how they were billed, but rather as DNC/DLC entities to "steer" people to the right thinking. Air America, although a bust, was the first we heard anything but hate radio, it was very exciting, MSNBC also billed as left leaning has gone to same way. Move-on, many of the long-standing so-called progressive enterprises all seem to have their own Overton window about just how far left they are willing to go. Keith Olberman, Ed Schultz and others who were hard to control, were fired. Even the electron voting machines serve their purpose, I never hear a complaint out of the establishment candidates who like this system just fine. The MSM media pushes the idea that all these races are neck and neck with razor thin majorities on either side, and what do you know, the incumbent almost always keeps his seat. With demographics what they are, it seems impossible to me that all these races can be this close, of course, they got rid of exit polling and are actively suppressing the progressive vote all over the country, but no more than 1/3 of the country really thinks Republican, and course a good many of those fall into the category of the mentally ill or just plain ignorant.

Gos is just the latest in this group who got traction in the early 2000's to start shutting down what the DNC/DLC perceive as a threat to the duopoly of the Republican/Democratic theater that passes for democratic process. Trump and Sanders have scared the beejeezus out of the establishment on both sides. This is the most hopeful sign I have seen in many years, one that may lead to an understanding of just how our presidents are being picked for us.

I'm rambling, but glad to have you back.

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Miep's picture

a wonderful way to learn about logical fallacies?

I don't see how that sort of behavior can survive as long as intelligent solid writers and debaters have free rein to deal with it. Many of us have been exposed to a lot of this sort of thing and have learned how to name it and shame it. Although the repetition does get tiresome. It's not something you want to have to do all the time, but many hands make light work.

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Stay on track. Stay in lane. Don't throw rocks.

Ray Pensador's picture

trolls is that it ends up taking energy away from the steps necessary for people to learn from each other and coalesce into an effective and strategic movement. Also the constant repetition of misinformation has effect on readers.

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www.RayPensador.com
When you boil it all down, the number one step you can take to get out from under the fascist boot of the oligarchy is to stop subjecting yourself to the the U.S. corporate news media. It is a powerful psyops weapon.

Miep's picture

If it was not necessary, but one doesn't want to get too ruthless about banning people either. Because they'll just come back with new accounts, like spam bots.

When you run your own blog, you can be merciless with your comment moderation, but this is a little more complicated. I think that if there was an easy answer to this, someone would have found it by now? A troll filter?

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Stay on track. Stay in lane. Don't throw rocks.

LapsedLawyer's picture

engender Wink

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"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it."
-- John Lennon

It changed the day Bill Clinton took all the bloggers to lunch at his offices in Harlem. I don't know if they were threatened or paid, but after that, dailykos and most of the others became lapdogs for the Democratic Party. This was in 2008 right after the bloggers successfully primaried Lieberman and, get this, before his wife ran for office in 2008. Now you can accuse the government of corruption all you want, as long as it isn't a Democrat in the White House.

Here are two links that will give you perspective on what happened.

Boys on the Bus
https://books.google.com/books?id=K5wnQVh18G4C&pg=PR11&lpg=PR11&dq=Bill+...

This is the google link that will give you various reports and takes on that meeting.
https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome-psyapi2&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UT...

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

mimi's picture

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WindDancer13's picture

I noted that STOP along with the others are referred to as progressive blogs. I think it would be very helpful to call at least STOP a centrist blog in writings here and elsewhere that it comes up. People who may be interested in progressive views may go there thinking that is what they are getting, and it isn't. It is detrimental to the progressive cause to associate that site with progressive ideals. Progressives do not defend and promote the status quo. While some may argue that there are still some progressive ideas being espoused there, keep in mind that even Republicans can sometimes promote a progressive idea (wave bye to Jeb!).

To Ray: Nice to meet you. I had lurked over there since 2013 (having accidentally found the site during some research) and first started commenting and then doing a couple of diaries in late 2015. By January, I was already looking to depart for many of the issues you talk about in your article.

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We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass

PastorAgnostic's picture

Unfortunately, both can happen.

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Shigeru's picture

The hereafter to be unnamed financial security blanket for its founder, IMO not only allowed, but also actively encouraged the trolling. And the threats. I actually had been a member since 2003, but had to ask the owner directly to close my old account. I was stupid enough in 2003 to have let my real phone number out. I got harassing calls, etc. But persevered at that place until 16 March 16. The founder of the site was an activist repug until the nineties, and it is hard to have expected him to change his outlook as completely as he pretended. 

But good to see your writing again, although sometimes I disagreed with you, your writing was skilled and well researched.

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Miep's picture

that he was encouraging hostilities in order to drive traffic. There are indirect ways to do this. Just the software design alone can do a lot in this direction.

I remember a longtime user telling me once that she thought the place should be surrounded with yellow warning tape.

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Stay on track. Stay in lane. Don't throw rocks.

PastorAgnostic's picture

But his current approval of the attacks on Bernie supporters really has no upside. None that I can see, at least.

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Ray Pensador's picture

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www.RayPensador.com
When you boil it all down, the number one step you can take to get out from under the fascist boot of the oligarchy is to stop subjecting yourself to the the U.S. corporate news media. It is a powerful psyops weapon.

tapu dali's picture

Good to see you here; I hope you'll find it more welcoming than TOP.

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There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know.

ValleyForger's picture

For 10 years I slaked my thirst for progressive news and insightful opinion at TOS, but for the last couple of years came to feel that the quality of diaries there had woefully digressed. (Your absence may well have contributed to that feeling!) There were of course some exemplary diarists, and I will always respect and appreciate LD for his determination and dedication in creating the BNR on a daily basis.

But the Front Page and the Owner I had come to regard as water from a poisoned well. Upon reading the Ides of March Edict, I knew that I must find a new source for untainted Progressive Thought. I decamped to c99p on 3/14, and have no intention of ever visiting TOS again. Needless to say, I like what I have found here at c99p, and I am delighted that I can once again look forward to the writings of Ray Pensador.

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Ray Pensador's picture

writers here, the mutual respect people have for each other, and the camaraderie makes this the place to be.

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www.RayPensador.com
When you boil it all down, the number one step you can take to get out from under the fascist boot of the oligarchy is to stop subjecting yourself to the the U.S. corporate news media. It is a powerful psyops weapon.

Alison Wunderland's picture

yes no yes no yes no yes no yes no yes no
yes no yes no yes no yes no yes no no
yes no yes no yes no yes no no no
yes no yes no yes no no no no
yes no yes no no no no no
yes no no no no no no
no no no no no no

Welcome to the Big Blue Yonder, Ray.

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Miep's picture

by design, drives people nuts.

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Stay on track. Stay in lane. Don't throw rocks.

Pluto's Republic's picture

Can you attach the years you first noticed the various stages of the evolving trends and changes that you were were observing.

I realize what you wrote was "topic" based, attributing the hostilities directed toward you to specific topics you were writing about. But a linear timeline could be very revealing, if you can recall those dates.

Glad to see you. You were a spectacular and fearless thinker.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato

when does it get worse?
when do we hear about it? ...
internet, we MUST keep the internet!
and the institute for propaganda analysis must be reborn!!

in the early '80's, I was at an anti-nuclear rally in Salem, Oregon... I was just a random part of the crowd, sitting on the grass in a public venue... along came someone who put a sign down beside me in a position that looked like I had brought it... it was the most violent sign at the rally by a long shot, the most intense one I had seen... half a minute later, someone else comes by and gets a picture of me sitting there with the sign. another minute and a third person comes by and picks up the sign.
I sometimes wonder if it was anything personal, or if they just wanted a picture of a generic "hippy" espousing violence??
While I am radical in many ways and many peoples perspective.
I am not and was not a violent person.

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society stew... keep stirring or..
the scum rises
the middle evaporates, and
the bottom gets burnt

Deja's picture

It boggles my mind to realize that sort of stuff, and the organized trolling, and infultration mentioned in this essay, is actually planned and intentional.

PBS' Independent Lens had a story about The Black Panthers, and how that evil bastard, J. Edgar Hoover, relentlessly attacked them. It reminded me of the book, "The Judas Factor: The Plot to Kill Malcolm X" where Hoover also relentlessly attacked the Nation of Islam, Malcolm X after he broke away from the group following his pilgrimage to Mecca, and Martin Luther King Jr. Warrantless wire taps and plants were the norm. It's shudder worthy.

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Pariah Dog's picture

and by that I mean the height of the anti-war movement, I've seen this way too many times.

You spoke of Hoover and his FBI and the Panthers, but they weren't J Edgar's only project back then. The anti-war movement was a particular thorn in the side of the MIC. They'd tried everything - organized counter protests that pitted the young against their WWII era parents, The counters would scream epithets and throw things, but the kids kept marching peacefully. When the MSM back then finally started hinting at the truth, William Safire stuffed his famous words into Agnew's mouth - "nattering nabobs of negativism." And, well lots of other stuff. But the war dragged on, and the body counts rose, and the horrific scenes played across our television screens every night. Pretty soon it wasn't just the college kids who were marching. It infuriated TPTB that it gained strength as that war dragged on... and on.

If you've only read about those days, you probably think that the anti-war movement, the Peace movement as it were, eventually got violent and that was their downfall. But those kids didn't get violent all by themselves. The movement wouldn't have. Not all by itself.

I was dismayed when I saw this crap migrate to the net, but I suppose it was inevitable that it would. If you can't control the information people get, then you can't control the people.

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Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons - For thou art crunchy and good with ketchup

Deja's picture

I admit, I was born in '69, so I wasn't even old enough to see anything on TV, and don't even recall if I learned anything about it in school. I remember, at some point, as an adult watching a documentary about Kent State. That wasn't protesters turning violent - total opposite.

And, based on what I learned about the Ferguson "riots," (I'll never forget the video of the white undercover cop pounding on a store window, trying to get others to join in), I have a very hard time believing the "official" story of anything anymore. There's a big difference between protesters and rioters. The official story is they were rioters. Same with the Peace movement, IMHO, even though I really don't know much about it. I do know that unarmed people sitting down can't possibly hurt anyone.

EDIT: thanks for the links!

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I was is seattle for WTO
it was the same there... they started tear-gassing us, just sitting on the street, at 6 or 7am, the first broken window was about 3:30 or 4pm and the noose (news) said they had to tear gas us because we broke windows...
Of course, who broke them.. duh.
look into co-intelpro, and project mkultra, and, and...
the thing is, internet... flow of information
and the solid commitment to care about more than yourself... which comes from the fact that we are all connected, what we are and do effects others, this comes back and effects us. This is the logic that I wish was not needed, the logic that can be stated to those who do not inately feel it.. in those circles it is called enlightened self interest. I call it being sane, alive, aware.
this is what has the fearfull running Smile
those controled by fear, they are the agressors.
do not let them turn you, the way we win is to stay in the attitude of empathy and compassion without giving ourselves away to those who take advantage of that attitude. the one who take advantage of it are those who are still in fear... those we have compassion AND BOUNDARIES with. the only way compassion works is if there are good boundaries. It is not neccessary to set yourself on fire to help others.

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society stew... keep stirring or..
the scum rises
the middle evaporates, and
the bottom gets burnt

to ban people for making those connections. That's conspiracy theory stuff and not allowed.

Because DKOS was from day one a CIA propaganda operation, run by CIA operatives and professional propagandists.

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Tommymac's picture

A reporter for the local newspaper came in and was interviewing those of us there as we sat and watched live the horror of the bombing of Bahgdad on CNN (To me it was not a 'cool' special effects extravaganza - it was real and it was horrific.) I laughingly commented when she got to me, quoting the General (Caroll O'Conner) in the '70's antiwar movie Kelly's Heroes who said when interrupted while listening to the battle on the radio "Be quiet - the game's on!"

She laughed, then I spent 10 minutes with her explaining my antiwar views on the horror of the situation, the fact that we were watching people die in real time on Global television - that those 'cool special effects like' green bomb flashes were maiming and killing civilians, the irony of the whole fact that we were justifying war and killing people by defending one of the most undemocratic regimes in the world, Kuwait, and other progressive antiwar positions I strongly held at the time.

Anyway, the next day all that made the paper's front page 'human interest' perspective story was me being quoted by name saying "Be quiet - the games on" - with no explanation of the antiwar meaning of the comment or any of my actual sentiments. Made me look bloodthirsty - total opposite of my attitude and the interview.

That was my education on how the press propagandized and spun things; indeed that was my apotheosis that ended my innocence and has ultimately led to my being the anti-establishment 'radical progressive' I am today.

=====================

BTW - thanks so much for writing this Ray - I too have missed reading your thought provoking articles these last few years. And I agree with all you say.

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FEEL THE BERN: "But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing." - Thomas Paine
"Here I Stand, I can do no other." - Attributed to Martin Luther, 1521

SnappleBC's picture

This was always obvious to me... abundantly obvious.

My final conclusion is that anybody expecting the site to be a place where progressives can come together to learn, organize, and strengthen the movement will be disappointed. To the contrary, because of its insidiousness, I consider it a graveyard of progressivism.

In fact, the site made no bones about it. It is a partisan Democratic blog. That's got absolutely nothing to do with progressivism. It's purpose is to serve up the blue kool-aid. On the bright side, I did learn a lot about real politics there... me being a virtual political neophyte before. Some of the articles were very instructive. Some continue to be. But I am always aware that the purpose of the site is to serve up the blue kool-aid and that it has absolutely nothing to do with any sort of "values", progressive or otherwise.

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A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard

Pluto's Republic's picture

Coordinated and cruel changes. Socially destructive denialism ebbed and flowed. There was betrayal.

"The Matrix is a system. That system is our enemy. But when you are inside and look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters — the very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still part of that system, and that makes them our enemy.

"You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged and many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the System, they will fight to protect it."

Blue… or red pill?

There were situational nuances. During the Bush years, you could soar with the eagles and spread dangerous visions… of peace and generosity. You could raise your voice and tell the truth. After that, the door to an enlightened future was slowly and steadily pushed shut. The people began crushing their own dreams along with the dreams of others.

There is a connection to "events." And there is a connection to the shadow powers, and their opportunistic funding-bssed pushes in the continuing quest for global empire.

Recalling the timing of these events is important.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
LapsedLawyer's picture

Exactly this. I wrote my first diary following Obama's election describing both my elation at this nation electing it's first African-American president and the caution history has taught me to temper said elation. It was after that election that you can just see the tide turning GOS from orange to Team Blue (as in blue v red, Dem v Repub inanity) began to creep in. It really began manifesting itself around the healthcare debate; slinkerwink was damn near hounded off the site. The trollishness was and is unbearable.

And don't forget the grammar cops and PC police over there, either. Threadjacking is a contact sport for them.

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"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it."
-- John Lennon

They really hated it when I started calling them that and they moved to stop that before it caught on.

Please, if you haven't been banned, make sure that you mention Flag Nazi's every chance you get so that it DOES catch on. Once you've exposed the Flag Nazi's you've seriously hampered one of their favorite professional propaganda techniques.

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Ciganka's picture

I think that when many of us became frustrated with Obama's economic team, and as it became increasingly evident that there would be no personal accountability for the meltdown - things began to fall apart then.

Criticisms of Obama's policies began to result in deep and angry divisions. People were accused of racism and bigotry because of objections to economic policies.

At the same time, there was indeed, an incredible backlash of racism from the right against our first AA president, but the muffling of legitimate policy critiques was not an appropriate response.

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It gets on my nerves, and you know how I am about my nerves...

Shigeru's picture

TOP while purportedly believing that demographics will save the DNC and Clintons, has a pretty racist view of minorities.

The racist part assumes that AsianAmerican and Hispanics share all the same values and history as African Americans. They don't. Any strategy that focuses entirely on this is sure to fail.

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within minority groups. African-Americans in the Northern or Western states are going to have different concerns than those in the South or East. A Chinese-American voter is going to have a different point of view than, say, a Vietnamese-American, or a Mexican immigrant with one from El Salvador.

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tapu dali's picture

WA (latin@), AK (Inuit) and Hawai'i (Pacific Islands Asiatic).

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There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know.

detroitmechworks's picture

Ok, I'm convinced. I have to do drag someday just because I have to use the name Cassandra.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

By the lack of accountability of those who took us to war based on lies.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

that is was not only good for America, but that one was either stupid, isolationist, or racist to oppose his Fast Tracking it. For him so cynically use racism, the very thing that was used against him and his family in such an ugly way? That one blew me away. That for me was the "tell" that it is all about power, and it always was. Shame on me for believing his lovely speeches to the contrary.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

I couldn't agree more Snapple,Sometimes the best view is from the outside looking in.Although I did enjoy some of the content at tos as a progressive liberal something just did not feel right and I noticed it very early on and wondered if it was just me.Brainwashing can be very subtle and maybe a little of the Stockholm Syndrome was at work.Now we know!

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I'd get critical comments whenever I expressed my loyalty to causes or issues over the Democratic Party. Which seems to have little loyalty to progressive/liberal causes and issues.

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tapu dali's picture

One of the main tenets of "Democratic" Centralism.

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There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know.

The party purists over there are the worst sort. Issue purity is one thing, perhaps not the smartest way to conduct one's politics. But purity over a political party? That's politics as sports.

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jiordan's picture

but two things happened around the same time to clarify it for me:

1) Eric Snowden. I was stunned at the "he's a traitor and deserves to die" crowd, although I noticed after a little while that the crowd wasn't that big..just prolific in popping up where diaries talked about the NSA and state-sponsored spying. I didn't expect everyone to extoll him as a hero, but the vitriol against him seemed, well, manufactured. And I think it was.

2) I kept reading excerpts of diaries out loud to my husband and he would go to TOS and say "I can't find it". Inevitably, I had to tell him it was on the rec list, not the Front Page. Which made me realize how useless the front page was. Making fun of Republicans, talking about Republicans and analyzing Republicans (yeah, I'm including Clinton in that group). Trying to build up the "they suck so bad" meme.

I only quit going entirely recently, but I realized the Front Page was a joke over a year ago. I also quit going into the comments a long time ago because any decent discussion inevitably became what we all sarcastically referred to as a pie fight. And just recently, I realized that was intentional too. A valid essay and discussion would ALWAYS get derailed with bullshit.

Thanks for writing this and crystallizing my nebulous conclusions and suspicions. I had wondered if I was making too much of it, but now I see I'm not the only one who saw/felt it.

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and motivations, and still do -- but I would never say that anyone deserves to die. But the whole situation is well above my pay grade so I don't really talk about it that much.

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jiordan's picture

are valid, valuable, and worth having. Snowden himself has agreed he should stand trial but fears (and I think rightfully so) that he would get less than fair/just treatment at the hands of US authorities. The recent treatment of whistleblowers is chilling. But trying have a conversation about those things always got derailed at TOP, and it was weird how you could almost set your clock for the amount of time it would take for someone to post a comment designed to derail the conversation.

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I particularly loved reading the comments that indicated that the staff at Charlie Hebdo just might have been deserving of what happened to them.
I also love the fawning/defensiveness over Pope Francis, no matter how many times one points out that he is no different than a right wing CEO of a large corporation that works to deny people their civil rights. That boggles my mind.
Oh, and criticizing Israel's policies and actions being nothing more than anti-Semitism. Which fits right in with Hillary's speech to AIPAC.

Yep... the signs are all over the GOS and have been there for a long time.

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"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

jiordan's picture

I stepped into one I/P diary the entire time and I left almost immediately. The descent into name-calling, character assassination and deliberate misinterpretation of each other's comments was...off-putting to say the least.

And Francis, the good pope..that baffles me still.

I'm really embarrassed I didn't pick up on a lot of that sooner, but honestly, I put a lot of it down to crazy people and dicks on the internet, thinking it was just a few people always spoiling for a fight where they could be anonymous. Looked at through the more insidious and deliberate lens of stifling any truly progressive conversation, it makes me feel mad AND stupid that I didn't get it right away.

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TheOtherMaven's picture

that's a pretty low bar. At least he's saying a few of the things that need to be heard, even if he isn't saying enough of them or loudly enough, or often enough.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

Its a losing proposition to either try to write over there or comment over there. With the exception of strictly Bernie diaries, which I go to in order to support the writers and not let the Sander's voice be lost there, I try to avoid writing or commenting.

It is just mob rule over there, and it is toxic. Not only is the moderation seriously lacking, I think in certain instances it is allowed to destroy certain people's postings and work. As Ft said, it got to a point that you could not post anything critical of the RC xch, because the mob had decided that this offended them. And the I/P diaries are not even worth mentioning since they immediately caused conflagration. And of course, when I talk of 'mob rule' I also include 'ratfuckers,' 'trolls,' 'paid operatives' all of whom have a specific purpose in mind: to stop any free discussion. And N. O. T. H. I. N. G. was done to curtail this behavior. The moderation is a big failure there. And it doesn't have to be.

People upthread were asking for dates. Well, I don't have dates, but events. Events when I recognized that something serious was going on that was detrimental both to progressives and those who wished to do real research and discuss real ideas. With all the organized 'lynchings' there, the place reached a stalemate, that just resulted in anger and frustration. A stalemate that discouraged all serious work.

Those events that illustrated this totally clearly to me, and this may not be in actual chronological order:

1) the HR'g of the 47% video and running off the person who brought it to DK. The guy thought that there were genuine progressives there and instead found himself the victim of a mob of ignorant and ill-informed vigilantes who ran around screaming "CT, CT, CT...." And 'leader' did nothing...

2) the "Nephew trolling," when the whole website became consumed by this drama. I was one of the few who said that it was obvious to me that he was a sock/troll, and for a long while people ran in circles screaming down any voices of reason such as mine, HR'g, and just behaving like a rabid mob until the Nephew was caught. And 'leader' did nothing....

3) the Ray Pensador banning. The mob once again got rabid and decided that he was CT, not listening to reason. And then 'leader' called him out in a most abusive diary and then I wrote three diaries, one calling out 'leader' for setting the mob on Ray, one to the mob to tell them to stop behaving like the "lord of the flies" and one to Ray. And not only did Kos do nothing, he made the situation a lot, lot worse with his ill thought out abusive outbursts: 'fuck this, fuck that." It was clear to me then that 'leader' did not have a clue how to moderate the site and let mob rule prevail. And it was clear to me that something was seriously wrong with the site.

4) the inviting of 'leader's' sidekick back to the site; the lawyer who doesn't have a civil word for anyone and is happy to abuse everyone, even after he had been banned for his behavior before. Now that lawyer, even despite continuing to have 'timeouts,' is a perpetual fixture there now and has soured the already sour tone. I call him 'leader's' henchman, doing the dirty work for him.' Keeping him around is a very bad sign.

I am sure that I could think of more. But these events made clear to me the real dysfunction of the site and the lack of ability of the leader to run his site, and how he abandoned it to the 'mob,' and therefore kept the discourse on a junior high level, with mockery being the order of the day, certainly in the FP pieces, and serious logical thought being shouted down.

Ok, that's enough from me.

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Sea Turtle

people like, MB, Puddytat, Denise OV and LieparDestin. Otherwise? Gone!

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Mention of Snowden made me think of Jesselyn Radack. It appears her last diary on the GOS was August 12, 2015. What a loss. Does anyone know where, if anywhere, she is blogging these days?

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divineorder's picture

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A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.

She has posted there since August. I checked.

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Raggedy Ann's picture

TOP=The Other Place. Smile

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

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Plato2016's picture

Thought it was The (color) Page.

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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when we are afraid of the light.
--Plato

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There's a contact e-mail on this website: http://www.traitorbook.com/

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riverlover's picture

I must say I remember your exit, and could see the attacks, so many ad hominem. I never paid attention to handles then. Do now. I think I have even seen multiple references to you, post-exit, as an enemy. And not just you. Now I know the handles that interrupt.

Much better over here so far.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

kharma's picture

It's great to have you here.

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There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.. This...is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.--John Adams

gulfgal98's picture

I have said for a long time that your greatest "sin" was that you were way to close to the truth. And for those in the power structure, the truth is something that cannot be revealed to the rest of us. Keep telling the truth. Instead of being reviled, truth tellers are now starting to be revered in this nation. I look forward to your coming essays.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Instead of being reviled, truth tellers are now starting to be revered in this nation.

Last night was a resounding wallop to the cult of lies and their tellers.

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Miep's picture

I thought, "Here we go again, another serious leftist writer rising star: doomed, doomed, doomed." I was surprised Ray lasted so long, honestly. But then I am cynical.

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Stay on track. Stay in lane. Don't throw rocks.

Hi folks and Ray,

Just a first post and hello. Glad to see DK old timers and exiles here.

Ray I enjoyed your posts a lot over at DK. I was at DK since 2004 and drifted in and out over the years.

I plan to still post and rec at DK if not just to challenge the ConservaDems over there and to support the progressives who choose to stay. I think this am the Rec list is all Bernie - Ha!

I have always passed over the FP there and headed to the Rec List and Recent Stories..

Hope everyone enjoy's Bernie's Sat victories today, before we continue working hard for his next victories.

-roonie

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good to know about this am's rec list Smile --that must really piss the dear leader & her royal corporateness' supporters off!

just curious...what was your name on TOP?

go bernie! on to wisconsin!! on to the convention!!!

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Raggedy Ann's picture

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

to post on DKOS in our own organized way. That seems to be where the front lines are now.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

so that is one more thing I still return for. But my forays are targeted and now infrequent.

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Dark Knight's picture

Bernie threads too, but am moving on.

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I'd stay here.

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...but also very high level in that it doesn't take the presidential primaries into consideration. Since the days when you wrote there, particularly your 'end days,' I've seen the vitriol mature and evolve from status quo in general to the status quo candidate, which massively amplified hate and trolling against progressivism and more importantly, truth, which is where you live.

Who knows to what extent the movement to crush is infiltrated or formally organized there. I'm skeptical enough to believe it, though. It certainly hasn't silenced you, which is a good thing.

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sensetolisten's picture

again. I have so missed it from TOP, and I remember keenly both when you left and the trolling of your diaries that lead up to your departure. I could not agree MORE with your observation, commentary, and assessment of TOP, and of your social media in general.

This caucus99percent site, being the rebirth from the ashes of that TRUE community with all of the most powerful voices like yours who have been silenced at TOP through harassment and outright censorship, is one of the most gratifying and cathartic things I have experienced in the online world in years and demonstrates the true power of the internet. Just the mere reading of your name again brings me joy and hope. I honestly cannot tell you how thankful I am to see your name here... and so many other names here.

Please do keep posting!!!

Your powerful voice is so very needed here, now, today!!!

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“I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was hell.”
― Harry Truman

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I came up with the same conclusion: it's hard to believe that it isn't a concerted effort. The fact that two to three "front pagers" joined in on the trolling only drove the point home. That site is being driven by the DNC, one way or another, and they will control the content that comes out of the site, whether through bannings or, their real hope, that you just give up.

Ray, I wasn't a very active user when you must've written there, but I'm glad you're writing here. Excellent work!

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Raggedy Ann's picture

It was painful to watch because it was so predictable. Without fail, there they were. Glad we're here. Smile

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

That really chaps me, that the fix was in from the get-go.

Glad there is a safe haven.

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gulfgal98's picture

Certain front pagers would regularly troll his diaries and then there was the roving HR crowd that would swoop in and HR his tip jar to death. Ray was even called out in a diary by a front pager.

GBB, you were targeted too. But what happened to you was only the beginning of what happened to Ray. He was talking issues and policies that were being charged by the gangs over there as promoting conspiracy theories. I came to the conclusion that if someone says you are promoting a conspiracy theory, you have come too close to the truth.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

It's sad that a site that promises to be an oasis for liberal thought ends up being so fraudulent and corrupt.

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Dark Knight's picture

The trolling of your diaries was the final push for me to get off the sideline and participate in GOS.

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mileser's picture

While I didn't read your whole article, I agree with all that I read (and scanned). There are so many things I want to write, but I can't put it together right now coherently, although I've written some of these same ideas here and over at the Kossacks for Sanders on reddit. But I still haven't put it altogether.

Some ideas:

"Yesterday's Liberal is today's Conservative" in that what was yesterday's revolution becomes today's establishment. Even the revolution of which Bernie is the voice must face this possibility.

The Establishment will always fight tooth and nail to remain the establishment, even to the point everything burns down around it. How many empire's have fallen where the privileged hold on tightly until the very end, not realizing they could have prevented it. Sometimes many survive the collapse and find a way to make it (e.g., the USSR collapse) in the new order, or they don't: French Revolution, Russian Revolution.

The Establishment will plant people, as you've suggested. They did it with Occupy. They did it in the '60s and '70s. They've done it within the Bernie campaign. There will also be people who are so devoted to the way things are they will do things on their own to protect their preferred candidate and boy have we seen that in this campaign.

We also see people destroyed when they go against the establishment. They may have done some questionable things, but nothing that should have impaired their ability to do their jobs, but yet they went down. Just look at what happened so often to dissidents in the USSR. Or here with what happened to Anthony Weiner.

These are only some thoughts I've come up with. Other thoughts even less developed are floating in my brain that haven't come together yet. Some of my medical problems (and medications for them) in interfere with my thinking and attention span.

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-9.75, -8.21

Pat K California's picture

This is what struck the biggest chord with me:

"The constant trolling, the bias in rules enforcement, the hostility, the intimidation, the double-standards, the insidious appeals to progressives' sensitivities ends up acting as a powerful disrupting force against the movement."

I think I've been looking at this thing with blinders on. The problem isn't just ONE website's chaotic internal affairs, is it? That one website exhibits symptoms of a much larger problem for the progressive movement as a whole.

I'm with you on another thing as well. It is time to let go of that other place. Time to focus on the community that we have right in front of us. Time to look forward, not backwards.

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"Long term: first the rich get mean, then the poor get mean, and the rest is history." My brother Rob.

Raggedy Ann's picture

I'm spending the bulk of my time here; less and less there. I'll support Liepar and the BNR all the way.

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

until snoopydog gave me the low down on C99.

Started dropping in and lurking around from time to time. Then I started to notice I was spending as much or more time here and joined up.

For me it became apparent when I finally admitted to myself that I was being way to cautious. I would hold a rec or not speak up and voice my displeasure over something others were willing to do. Plus, it just seems that their is always "something" that offends. The accusations at the drop of a hat. "You're sexist." "You're a racist." Or someone would take offense over something innocently said. Then you would see a pile on, or they just wouldn't let it go as if the offense was of earth shattering proportions.

For fuck sakes I would think. Grow the fuck up, the world is not perfect and it is rough around the edges. Besides their are far more important fish to fry in this life. The attacks that came to Ray were over the top and appeared at the time calculated, even to a novice like me. The decline at TOP has been steady and at the same time sad.

Damn glad to have you here Ray and all the others whose names I recognize. Feels like I can breathe again.

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Bollox Ref's picture

there was an obvious influx of 'establishment types' who suddenly 'discovered' Dkos, to tamp down the story, etc.

'Tony Situ' being a prominent example.

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Gëzuar!!
from a reasonably stable genius.

LOL

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Raggedy Ann's picture

I always felt so educated about what you were writing about upon finishing it. Does that make sense? Anyway, you've described exactly what's going on. I got flagged, many times, for asking who these trolls were, really. I remembered them from your diaries, too, but your description here brings it all back.
This is why I implored people not to take the bait. Reading comments there is short lived for me once derailing begins. This always takes away what the diary is about!
Anyway, thanks for clarifying. I concur.

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

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