The Bernie Sanders debate again
A blog titled "State of Nature" has as today's feature a question, asked to a number of prominent American activist celebrities: "Should the American Left unite behind Bernie Sanders?" It's fun to read if you like that kind of thing.
The responses deserve consideration, and so I will go over each of them briefly. Doug Henwood suggests the "go local" approach as a supplement to Bernie. Yeah that's all right. Judith Butler argues that "Once we have that platform, one that closely approximates Democratic Socialists of America but refuses to relegate racism and sexual and gender politics to a secondary position, then we can perhaps listen to what candidates say." Question for Butler: does anyone pay attention to platforms? Charlie Post doesn't like the Democrats (and with good reason). Question for Post: who else doesn't like the Democrats?
Bill Fletcher Jr. argues that "The Left needs to develop state-by-state strategies that, while helping to advance Sanders, do far more." Question for Fletcher: isn't that what "Our Revolution" does? Just asking. Zillah Eisenstein wants to push an agenda. It's a good agenda, but it's an agenda nonetheless. "I will mobilise for the woman candidate who promises to fight for: the Green New Deal; health care for all; day-care for all; an end to cash bail; $15 minimum wage; free Palestine." Maybe if the college students get behind this sort of thing it would work, but perhaps my own idea of college students is antiquated and needs a severe update. Remember that I got my Bachelor's degree from UCSC in 1984, just before the anti-apartheid protesters occupied McHenry Library. Ancient history?
Eric Mann doesn't like the US, and he's right, but he hasn't asked the two communicative questions: 1) is your audience paying attention, and 2) what's the ultimate aim of your statement? Lester Spence says "The left should be far more involved in electoral politics than it has been," which isn't saying much to those who are faced with electoral races in which nobody who matters is running. Marina Sitrin suggests unity in difference, which is what we have now. Eric Blanc asks, "what if Bernie wins?" Which is good as a utopian dream. Let a thousand utopian dreams bloom! Juan Cruz Ferre says "no," which might prompt the reply "so what have you got?" Eljeer Hawkins recommends critical engagement (which is fine). John Bachtell is in favor of a united front, which is also okay except that all the Democrats lean on a united front strategy already, which unfortunately stands for nothing. Rand Wilson and Peter Olney are loyal Democrats I guess.
Honestly, what Sanders did more than anything (apart from the Ocasio-Cortez thing and a few other phenomena) is to expose what a lot of damn fools the Democrats were before 2015, and to make clear and obvious a revolt against the whole of the political culture which even today dominates Washington DC and the fifty statehouses. Seriously: before Bernie, was anyone in power even asking what the taxpayers were getting for the money they sent the IRS each year? And the Democrats were standing around watching Debbie Wasserman Schultz and her BFF Barack Obama hand the country to the Republicans. Two political campaigns seem especially worthy in light of the political reality altered by Bernie: 1) throw the dinosaurs out of office and 2) get people to organize for their own self-interests.
Okay now it's your turn.
Comments
Daily Kos straw poll is open
It's a day early some reason.
“When out of fear you twist the lesser evil into the lie that it is something good, you eventually rob people of the capacity to distinguish between good and evil.”
~ Hannah Arendt
they forgot to publicize the previous one
if you google dailykos poll and click "news" you can easily find out that Elizabeth Warren did well in one poll and Kamala Harris did well in the next one. But for some reason news organizations either didnt get the word about how Bernie dominated the Feb. poll or else they chose not to run any stories about it.
Exposing the Underbelly of the Clintonian Era
I think Bernie started that conversation in 2015; he's now moving forward.
Speaking of Bernie, TOP has its straw poll up:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/3/4/1839274/-Daily-Kos-Democratic-...
One equal temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will. To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.--Tennyson
Bernie leading again, 38%
Harris at 21%.
But in true Markos fashion, he downplays last month's poll with this:
"Two weeks ago, Bernie Sanders’ online warriors did a great job of flooding the poll. Will they do so twice in a row?"
The funny thing is, he acts like these people who don't usually go to that site yet returned to vote for Bernie aren't the same people he kicked out in March 2016.
Up to 40% when I logged on!
& yes Markos is a total dinosaur.
“One of the things I love about the American people is that we can hold many thoughts at once” - Kamala Harris
Also I didn't see Tulsi Gabbard in the poll.
It's curious that Markos put Sanders but not Gabbard in his poll. Why not avoid both of them, and really bias the poll?
“One of the things I love about the American people is that we can hold many thoughts at once” - Kamala Harris
I noticed that too
Leaving Bernie out would be too blatant. He will have to find other ways to try to damage Bernie's campaign.
If Kos were smart....
he would have included Tulsi to cut into Bernie's numbers.
(Now at 51%)
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
Or the same people who voted for Bernie
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Where are Harris' and Warren's supporters?
Many people there think the poll is being freeped by Bernie's supporters. The poll is open to anyone who has a horse in the race.
Bernie 48%
Harris 16%
Warren 14%
“When out of fear you twist the lesser evil into the lie that it is something good, you eventually rob people of the capacity to distinguish between good and evil.”
~ Hannah Arendt
Wrong question
The right question is: “If the Berners are so much better at online ballot stuffing than your sock puppet army, why do you think you can win a 21st century election?”
We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg
Maddow on the DK straw poll
“When out of fear you twist the lesser evil into the lie that it is something good, you eventually rob people of the capacity to distinguish between good and evil.”
~ Hannah Arendt
It’s a battle of wits
With an unarmed opponent!
We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg
Are people seeing who actually wrote this?
It's easy to miss this is a parody account of Rachel's? I sure missed it the first time I saw it.
“When out of fear you twist the lesser evil into the lie that it is something good, you eventually rob people of the capacity to distinguish between good and evil.”
~ Hannah Arendt
No I caught it
I was mocking the talking head maddow.
We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg
Got it
Yeah it is easy to mock her ever since Obama became president and she stopped being anti war and other things that she was during Bush's tenure.
“When out of fear you twist the lesser evil into the lie that it is something good, you eventually rob people of the capacity to distinguish between good and evil.”
~ Hannah Arendt
Opinions
There are so many differing opinions on the pros and cons of Bernie's campaign. I've read and/or heard most of them many times. But I made up my mind a long time ago and can't see anything new that is likely to sway me in a different direction. I simply believe that Bernie's our best choice out of all the real contenders. It's no secret he's not perfect and I've never tried to argue that he was. And (inspite of what some may think) I'm not some starry eyed fool with fluttering heart who gushes all over him. Nor do I believe he's some kind of magician that's going to right all that's wrong in this freakn country. Neither is anyone else. But his message overall is pretty damn good, he stands a better than fair chance of beating Trump who I suspect isn't going to be as easy to beat as many seem to already believe. I do believe, even with his imperfections that he's all in on improving the lives of the 99% and I know that until he started talking about what that requires, no one else bothered. I know that there's a reason he was knocked around in 2016 and why that's started all over again since he announced his nomination. It's obvious as hell that the Dems are scared of him, the Repubs are scared of him, Wall street is scared of him, MIC is scared of him, all the millionaires and billionaires that own Congress are scared of him. Those reasons alone are pretty convincing if you think about it. BTW I won't vote for any other Democrat, will vote green instead, if Bernie is cheated out of the nomination again. (Last time I wrote his name in.)
All I want is the truth. Just give me some truth. John Lennon
In this DCCC poll, Bernie and
In this DCCC poll, Bernie and Jay Inslee were both left out. I'm surprised Tulsi got the middle square. (Some of you probably remember the Hollywood Squares teevee show)
One equal temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will. To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.--Tennyson
Bernie is now in that poll but...
I don't know if my vote counted. After I hit "submit" (an unfortunate choice...sounds like something an overlord would say), it took me to another page asking if I'm a committed grass roots Dem, asking what I consider the most important issues (of those they mentioned) and concluded with asking for a donation with no button to click "no" or "not at this time". It was all "I'll pitch in $25" or "I'll pitch in $20", ending with "I'll pitch in a different amount", at which point I shut it down.
People are really upset
I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks
Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa
I think
prominent American activist celebrities are full of shit and the cause of everything that is wrong with the Democratic Party. Pardon my French.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
I really can't say I know these people well
nor do I know what they've done. That's to some extent why I included links for each of them to explanations of who they were.
I'm not going to judge people without doing my research.
“One of the things I love about the American people is that we can hold many thoughts at once” - Kamala Harris
"Activist celebrities"?
Seriously? No fucking wonder the democratic party leaning part of the left is all fucked up. Not only do they have celebrity politicians, now they have celebrity activists.
I think Charlie Post, who I don't know from Adam (guess I'm not up on my celebrity activists), had the right answer, at least in general. I didn't read much of the others and wondered what a magician (Henwood) was doing in this poll. Just chalking it up to "he doesn't like democrats" kind of sidesteps his rationale. As stated, a lot of people don't like the democratic party.
"The Left should not, however, unite behind Sanders as a candidate for the Democratic nomination for President. The Democrats have been the graveyard of every radical social movement from the industrial union movement of the 1930s and 1940s to the black freedom struggle, women’s movement and anti-war movements of the 1960s and 1970s. Today, the party is even more firmly under the control of capitalists, who run the party through their funding of the myriad campaign committees which are the de facto leadership of the Democrats. They will do everything in their power to quash Sanders’ challenge."
It's the same debate that was had last time, same old shit, different day. It's more about the democratic party and the duopoly political system, than it is about Bernie Sanders.
I'm fine with that rationale.
I really don't know what to do, however, with the great mass of Dems who keep supporting the worthless hacks who run their party, arguing with all of the worthless excuses they usually provide (and I'm not going to repeat these excuses here -- everyone reading this message knows what they are). Such people are not going to jump willy-nilly from their current political thinking to a fresh and wholesale rejection of the Democratic Party. Mostly I think it needs to be pounded into their heads that the Democrat dinosaurs are not deserving of public office and that someone with a new thought in their heads should replace them.
As I suggested above, before 2015 the whole Democratic Party sat around and picked its collective nose while Debbie Wasserman-Schultz and her BFF Barack Obama gave the US government to the Republicans. Shouldn't they even be reflecting upon this?
“One of the things I love about the American people is that we can hold many thoughts at once” - Kamala Harris
Elect better democrats?
I don't want to put words in your mouth but "Mostly I think it needs to be pounded into their heads that the Democrat dinosaurs are not deserving of public office and that someone with a new thought in their heads should replace them.", sounds like the same thing.
There's the thought process, always been here, that the DNC or the dem leadership is the real problem and that by getting rid of them and electing better democrats, the party can be reformed. To me that flies in the face of historical facts about this political system. But many others see it as the only game in town, so they play it.
The real question should be, "Should the American left unite behind the democratic party?" And of course, the answer is no and it will never happen.
My two questions of communication:
1. Is your audience paying attention to you?
2. What is your communication going to do in the world?
You don't have to tell the Dem faithful to elect better Democrats. The point is to find a message for them that they will listen to and that might allow them to do something in the world that would be anything better than what they're doing now.
“One of the things I love about the American people is that we can hold many thoughts at once” - Kamala Harris
Thanks. I always get magicians and celebrity
political activists mixed up.
Edit: meant as reply to Arendt below.
How about
"boycott the duopoly! Demand democracy!"
Course, I don't have an audience that will pay attention to me. Except my dogs when I've got some food.
I think your dogs are smart and you
should consider taking them seriously. ...
Good you are back. Don't quit.
https://www.euronews.com/live
Henwood is an old-school leftie who seems to have sold out
The magician you are thinking of is Doug Henning. The eoconmist is Doug Henwood
I say "sold out" due to an article at Naked Capitalism:
While I won't support a dem
this is damn funny.
Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.
Very funny
Very.
“When out of fear you twist the lesser evil into the lie that it is something good, you eventually rob people of the capacity to distinguish between good and evil.”
~ Hannah Arendt
Going the $27.10 non-return route again?
Fool me once shame, shame
truth is considered foreign influence, world peace is a threat to national security
Let's talk.
When I hear things like
or
I'm never sure just who they're talking about. If those sentiments are meant to include the bulk of Bernie supporters then I have to wonder how one comes to the conclusion that we're all brain-dead sheep who aren't capable of understanding how fucked up the Democratic Party is.
Because hey, we get it. As an example of that, someone posted a tweet by Nina above where she calls out the Democratic Party and if you follow that post further you'll find a long stream of Bernie supporters agreeing, retweeting, and adding to it. We get it. And I absolutely get it that many are pissed off and we’re right there with you on that too with the one exception being when your anger boils over onto anyone supporting Bernie. As I see it we're on the same side here and our main difference is that we disagree on whether or not Bernie is helping or hindering our cause. I believe he's helping it and I feel that way because I believe that he's waking up a lot of people that had previously been under the spell of the sweet talk that spews out of the typical Dem pol. I’ve yet to hear a good explanation as to why it’s a bad thing to support Bernie, other than the belief that he’s a sheepdog, which argument makes no sense to me. People know the Dems fucked him over in 2016 and they’re watching closely this time around. They’re trying again for sure but all we need to do is to call them out each and every time they pull some bullshit. Make the fuckers pay for it and make em pay hard and their big plan may very well blow up in their face. If you think I’m dense and can’t see the forest for the trees please enlighten me. Someone please explain it to me how supporting his run is a bad thing. That’s not a snarky or smart-ass question, it is a serious request. I’m trying to understand where you’re coming from.
And sure, what we really need is a revolution of some sort, I'm certainly not arguing that, although I'm not certain just how that's going to come about and even harder, how it’s going to succeed. (think OWS) and secondly, what the final outcome will be. What I feel certain of is that nothing good in the way of change is going to happen unless/until enough of the 99% get behind it. I don’t need to tell you that as things stand right now we the people have no power, no influence whatsoever individually. The pols nod their heads in agreement when we speak, say something soothing, and walk away smirking once our backs are turned. With no other access to them we write letters to our so called reps and at best we get some pandering canned reply that is meaningless and not worth reading. They will never listen to us, never, until there are enough of us that they have no choice. I think the most important thing Bernie is doing is waking the dead and in doing so, increasing our ranks, which is why I don’t see how his candidacy or more personally, supporting it, is a bad thing. Thanks for listening.
All I want is the truth. Just give me some truth. John Lennon
That statement there:
refers to the reality before Bernie announced his first presidential candidacy in 2015. Oh, sure, there are plenty of Democrats who are angry now, not all of them coherently so. But then?
“One of the things I love about the American people is that we can hold many thoughts at once” - Kamala Harris
Sorry, my bad, thanks for straightening me out.
I read that too fast and somehow missed the reference to 2015. And yes, you are absolutely correct that things were different then. But I think the fact that there are "plenty of angry Democrats now" lines up well with my notion that Bernie is helping by educating the uneducated.
All I want is the truth. Just give me some truth. John Lennon
I take it as the DP members not the voters
As for writing, calling, emailing and signing petitions to congress, it doesn't matter how many people do it. Nothing has been able to effect what congress does in a very long time. There is a video called, "corruption is legal" that tells the truth about that if you're interested.
I think the best way for us to get the PTBs attention is a huge work stoppage as well as boycotting everything except necessaries. Two weeks of this would bring the country down and get their attention. Unfortunately there aren't enough people who see how we are being screwed. Cops murdered over 1,000 people every year going back a few and still we have people blaming the victim and not the f'ckers who murdered them. Same things about the military in every country it wants to be in. "Thanks for your service and defending our freedumbs"
Just wait until cops start killing more white peoples.
“When out of fear you twist the lesser evil into the lie that it is something good, you eventually rob people of the capacity to distinguish between good and evil.”
~ Hannah Arendt
Hi snoopy
Heh, I don't need to watch any video to understand how corrupt our gov't is. And yeah, work stoppage is a powerful tool but as you said it takes a lot of pissed off people to pull that off and we're far short of having enough of those right now. Spreading the message and trying to wake people up is about our only alternative for the moment. And that's no easy task, but I know someone who's trying to do just that and doing a pretty good job of it. Wanna guess?
All I want is the truth. Just give me some truth. John Lennon
I suppose your reference to this:
"No fucking wonder the democratic party leaning part of the left is all fucked up." is directed at me, since I wrote it. You wonder who I'm talking about?
I'm talking about those on the left, keeping in mind the left is very fucking big, i.e., well over half the population, I'm referring to the part of the left that are either partisan democrats or support the party by voting for it's representatives. And ya, that includes Bernie Sanders.
Sorry man, that's how I feel about those that support the dem party and it's representatives. I'm not saying they're all braindead sheep, I'm saying they're collectively fucked up by giving any credence to a completely oligarchy controlled political party that actively works against the regular people of this country and the world. I'm saying there is a portion of the left that understands we need radical change and that the democratic party works against such radical change and therefore must be opposed. And those supporting the party in any way are not helping the cause, in fact, I believe they're hurting it. And I'm not alone.
I know most people here don't like my stance, which is why I've slowed way down on participating here, but just to answer your question from one long haired old hippie to another.
Thanks for replying
I didn't name names, didn't want to start a fight, but yes I was referring to your comment. I know how you feel, we had a similar discussion back in the early days of C99. I respected your views then, especially your dedication to your antiwar stance, and I respect those same views today. But I'm sorry, I still don't understand how Bernie is hurting anything you stand for. And I know you're certainly not alone in that respect. As I've said (too many times probably) I believe Bernies message is pretty good, with a few important exceptions which I fully admit fall short of what's needed. But the American people have been so brainwashed for so long that it's going to take an absolute catastrophe to wake them up enmass, and short of that, getting the message out is all we've got for now. Bernie does that better than most. Do you see something else that's going to bring about the change you want in the near future? I don't. So I'm playing the long game even though it's taking too damn long and is chock full of snares and booby traps. The way I see it we don't really have any other choice other than just throw in the towel and say fuck it. I'm not there yet and I know you aren't either or you wouldn't still be here speaking out like you do. So I just keep on keepn on with what I think is the best we got for now. I'm not chained to it, and if something I believe is better comes along I'll be there. Right now I don't see it. Anyway's, good talking to ya again. Peace brother
All I want is the truth. Just give me some truth. John Lennon
Good to talk to you too burnt out.
It's a funny thing isn't it. I hear ya and greatly appreciate your perspective. I think I want to reply in an essay if you don't mind, indirectly. Haven't posted in awhile and wanted to get back to it and this is what it's all about. Right now. Peace brother.
Cool,
Looking forward to reading it!
All I want is the truth. Just give me some truth. John Lennon
Yes please, get back to it.
I think your views, regardless of how or when I agree or disagree are helpful in getting a glimpse of the bigger picture.
"supporting his run is a bad thing" He's lying by omission
thanks for asking, that's what I think. It's not good to support a falsehood. If Bernie is educating the masses about super delegates, and how their votes count more than mine, and why, then good on him. How UN-democratic can a political party be? Paging Orwell, hello?
He isn't teaching about that though, he is just going around with a new version of his old campaign. He even said "we are not blue states and red states" in a speech the other day. omg wtf Yes We Can again? ~giant flushing sound~ My super delegate Rep. already endorsed Harris, just like he endorsed Clinton in '15, despite Bernie winning the CA-02 primary vote, he still cast for Clinton. Nothing has changed in CA-02, it is still a cesspool of bribe-taking grifters, lifetime politicians. That's the system.
There's a meme going around showing Bernie with Big Union support, more bosses is what people can do without if you ask me. Caving in to big capital, one benefit at a time. good luck
And another thing! Bernie and the Ds have nothing to say about housing, which comes before healthcare on the hierarchy of needs. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! California produced hundreds of billionaires, the cash is offshore now I guess. D-Bernie thinks we're great because $15 per hour wage. The ATM State. Does he say it's only $12 per hour today, on the campaign trail? Incremental kabuki kills the living, that's my observation. Mitigation failures supreme, that is the D company Bernie keeps. PU duopoly stinks.
peace
Ouch, that stings...
Looks like we disagree on pretty much everything. I was pretty happy with his overall message in 2016 so the fact that he's pretty much saying the same thing this time around sits pretty good with me. "We are not blue states and red states" is just part of his overall message that we're all part of the 99 % so that doesn't bother me either. Reaching out to everyone seems like a good thing to me. To be honest, I'd be surprised (and disappointed) if he said something to the contrary.
Can't speak to your super delegate endorsing Harris other than to say that definitely sucks. But as far as "nothings has changed", you might be right, time will tell that story, but in my opinion it's pretty early to make such a broad statement. If I'm understanding you right that you're unhappy that he's getting some Union support this time around then I'm completely lost as to why that is a bad thing. And as far as Housing, it is definitely an important issue but I don't think I can place it ahead of healthcare. But both are big problems and need to be addressed. If he hasn't addressed it already then that's surprising but I fully expect, or hope anyway, that he will. But again, it's early. Incremental improvements anywhere aren't what's needed but we're not likely to see that changing anytime soon no matter who ends up on top.
So I guess we don't share much common ground, at least on what we're discussing here, but I did ask for your thoughts and I appreciate hearing them. Thanks
All I want is the truth. Just give me some truth. John Lennon
@burnt out
People know the Dems fucked him over in 2016 and they’re watching closely this time around.
People were watching closely the last time around.
http://newsvideo.su/video/4145866
They’re trying again for sure but all we need to do is to call them out each and every time they pull some bullshit.
Really? Is that all we need to do?
In order to believe that, one must have amnesia about all the times people called the elites out for exactly this crime, both in 2000 and 2004, in response to Bush, and in the 2016 Democratic primaries. This bullshit has been called out repeatedly. Unfortunately, because neither the legal system nor the political system gives a shit what we think, calling bullshit has little effect. It certainly has no effect on rectifying the massive fraud that already kept Sanders from the Presidency once and will likely do so again. Doubly unfortunate is the fact that the media is owned by the same people as the legal and political systems, which means that not only do truthtellers have no impact on election results, they are likely to get gaslit and have hatchet jobs done on their characters and end with their reputations destroyed.
Make the fuckers pay for it and make em pay hard
How?
1)How are you going to get enough power to make the elites pay for anything?
2)When you have that power, how are you going to actually accomplish your goal--through what means? Does "making them pay" mean taking them to court? Destroying them in the court of public opinion? Burning down their houses? What, exactly?
3)How are you going to "make them pay" when they (and we) live in a system organized, above all else, to make sure elites never pay for anything (unless they anger another elite)?
and their big plan may very well blow up in their face.
If you've really got a plan that will result in the next round of fraud boomeranging in the face of the Clintons and their allies, then, I salute you; I also encourage you to not share it here, nor to even admit you have such a plan.
But it sounds like your plan to make election fraud blow up in their faces is simply a determination to uncover their crimes and tell the truth about them. An admirable goal, and one I share; telling the truth is important, for reasons that have nothing to do with attempting to get any politician elected. As I've said elsewhere, we are in two battles here, and one is the battle for control of the human mind, a battle in which telling the truth is vital. But one shouldn't confuse the two battles. Truthtelling obviously has little effect on election results.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Excellent, clear-eyed response and ruminations, CStMS.
Should turn into another essay.
I'm ambivalent about a lot of this. I guess the way I see it is that the overbearing influence of propaganda is the key to everything, and that pushing back against it is what I'm most interested in.
Have so little time on my hands to give your comment the time it deserves, apologies.
Saw about a third of this last night and it's a good conversation in the direction of where this essay has taken us (it's much more that the title suggests. Henry Giroux emphasizes the need for the Left to speak with more direct-spoken passion in our ideology to combat growing fascism rather than high-minded platitudes or academic orthodoxy):
"If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph:
THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED
FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
WAS MUSIC"
- Kurt Vonnegut
Sorry for the late response
I got tied up with family stuff and just now getting back to this. Now that I’m here I’ll try to answer the highlighted sections in your reply. Your point that they were called out many times in 2016 and posted the videos as proof is totally accurate. I think I’ve probably seen most of the vids already so no point in my watching them again. And whether I’ve seen them all or not I’m sure they all make your point. I’m also sure there are plenty more out there saying more or less the same thing. And I’m also sure you were able to find them with no trouble, just like I did back when they were made. Every Bernie supporter with an internet connection saw them, and probably a decent percentage of others on the left, (obviously I’m not talking about Clinton supporters or the like). But..
But I have to wonder what percentage of American voters saw or even heard about it. What percentage of American voters go to RT or follow Jimmy Dore or visit any of our favorite sites? No clue but I’ll bet next months social security check it’s incredibly small. Maybe it’s wishful thinking and I’m sure that many here will think that’s exactly what it is but I just don’t see how Bernies going to be ignored by MSM this time around. It’s not Bernie who? anymore. I may be wrong and time will tell that story. I’m guessing your highly doubtful and being hopeful doesn’t come easy for me either but it’s all I’ve got at the moment.
To your second question about the means for making them pay. Don’t think you really believe that burning down their houses is the way to go so I’ll just pass over that one . Court action is a possibility but that’s not really what I had in mind when I wrote that.. Might be something to it though. But your (possibly sarcastic ?)mention of destroying them in the court of public opinion is closer to what I was aiming at and is related to my statement of calling them out whether on an outright lie, a lie of omission, or whatever BS they’re trying to pull. If we can call out the DNC, which we are in fact doing, we can do the same with MSM. Maybe doing so will have some results, maybe it won’t. Like I said, all I’m running on is hope which is apparently a sign of a mental disease to some but for now it’s keeping me in the game. Maybe tomorrow that’ll be gone too but right now it’s still working.
As to your third point, sounds like we’re not very far apart there at all. If we make enough noise and do manage to expose the underhanded deeds that the DNC is sure to pull, I have to believe people will start jumping ship and even better, start questioning everything in a way that that typical dem voters have never done. All a pipe dream, maybe. I don’t know, but you don’t either.
Here’s my deal, I believe Bernie is the best pres candidate that’s come along in my lifetime. Notice I didn’t say perfect, just the best. I don’t think he walks on water but I do think he’s for the 99% and I know he’s waking folks up, I also think he’s moving the o-window back towards the left and I do think he’d be the best thing that’s happened in this country in a long long time. I say that knowing full well that some are laughing out loud at that statement, and probably at everything I’ve said. But it’s what I believe so……. One more thing I know is that if he doesn’t make it this time, we’ll never get this chance again so there’s that.
And BTW, while I appreciate all the replys , my initial question asking how supporting Bernie was a bad thing has yet to be answered. Or maybe it has I’m just unable to understand it, but whatever, I’m not here to fight with anybody about anything, I was just curious about the venomous attitude some seem to have towards Bernie. I just can’t get my head around it and was trying to figure out where it was coming from. But they say curiosity killed the cat so maybe I should just let it go………
All I want is the truth. Just give me some truth. John Lennon
No, there was nothing sarcastic in my comment
I disagree with you, but I share your values and respect many of your aims. Even the ones I don't respect, I don't disrespect, if that makes any sense.
We could, maybe, crucify these bastards in the court of public opinion, but I haven't noticed them changing their behavior in response to public opinion for a long while. Decades.
In any case, while many people may not have seen those videos, more than half the country seems pretty clear on what Hillary Clinton and her friends are. It's just unfortunate that some of those people seem enamored of Trump--or at least think he's going to help them out.
Getting more people to see those videos is a good idea.
It would also be good to do something about the widespread belief among right-wingers that "Bernie doesn't know how he's going to pay for it."
That's their form of being automatons, NPCs, or whatever you want to call it: mouthpieces for the establishment. The talking points just kind of coast through them, like you're not even talking to an individual human being. It's basically the same thing that Hillary supporters do.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Thank you, I appreciate your attitude
I'm sure the vast majority of us here on C99 are in total agreement as to the problem, the difference of opinion comes to the front mainly over how we go about fixing it. I can’t argue any of of what you just said though. There’s definitely a lot of work to do out there. Educating dems is hard enough but educating those on the right, whooboy. Anyway, Thanks for your respectful reply, I thought this thread was long gone….
All I want is the truth. Just give me some truth. John Lennon
Not at all. :-)
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
As for how it's bad to support Bernie's run
It's bad because supporting Bernie's run requires that you support the Democratic Party through which he runs (unless Wasserman Schultz and her friends manage to throw him out, deny him "permission," or whatever). People like to deny this, but it's true: how can you support someone running as a Democrat without supporting the Democratic party's ability to make the nation better? And also maintaining the notion that third parties are not viable and the duopoly is the only way to go?
It's also bad because supporting Bernie's run requires that you support the notion that our electoral structure has integrity. It has none, except perhaps on the local level; there are too many small principalities and powers to micromanage, so the overlords have simply decided to defund them all. If the right wing were smart, they'd be pushing back on this for all they're worth, but they just keep repeating the tired old anti-tax mantra with no specificity whatsoever.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Well put, CStMS, and
stated in a very civil manner.
Thank you!
Blue Onyx
I think dogs are the most amazing creatures; they give unconditional love. For me they are the role model for being alive.
~~Gilda Radner, Comedienne
Gratitude is not only the greatest of virtues, but the parent of all others.
~~Cicero
The obstacle is the path.
~~Zen Proverb
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
Thanks!
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Thank you!
That’s the kind of information I’ve been looking for. I think I understand where you’re coming from now and I do see your point. That’s not to say I agree with all of it. All I can tell you is that I honestly don’t feel like I”m supporting the dnc with my support of Bernie. I know that may not make sense to those that feel like you do but I’m looking at it from the viewpoint that even though he's running as democrat, he’s going much further left than they want which of course is why they’re hell-bent on stopping him. And I know some say even if elected he will have no choice but to back way off of all that he claims to be standing for. That’s certainly a possibility and the party leaders will be pushing him in a thousand different ways to do just that. The big question is will he or won’t he bow down to them once he has the pulpit, once the reins are in his hands. I don’t know, it remains to be seen. But what I hope is he’ll keep on pushing for the change he’s calling for and doing it publicly is going to either force the party to go along or show their true allegiance. In other words they can put up or shut up.I think that’s a win win situation either way. You may disagree, and I respect your right to do so, but it is something to think about. No?
All I want is the truth. Just give me some truth. John Lennon
Personally, I think the time to do that
was the Democratic Party convention, 2016.
It was pretty clear to me that those visits to Obama, Biden, and Harry Reid were Bernie trying to see if other powerful people in the party would be willing to abandon Clinton and support him. No soap. After that, well, you remember the convention.
But we can agree to disagree, because nobody knows everything!
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
And...you're welcome. :-)
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver