I couldn't take it anymore...

I suppose mostly because I am just so livid!

I mostly just lurk on Facebook...have an account and my "friends" consist of mostly two groups: a bunch of outdoor/fishing types (why I stay on FB is actually in order to participate in a yearly fishing contest and it's required to post catch photos on a specific page for "measurement proof") and many of my former running club.

It's actually my old running club crowd that is the problem; they have, over the course of the last two years (gee, guess why?) they spew/spout all the standard "garbage." I let it slide...as I said, just there for one reason. Ironically, given the stereotype of the "redneck" hunter/fisher types, that crowd is reasoned, logical, and despite differing opinions among them, retain civility and just argue with fact vs. emotion (for the most part).

Anyway...watching the old running crowd broke something in me today and I unleashed; I can't stand by while these kids are demolished and demonized, because through my own investigation, it is massively unwarranted, way out of line, extremely damaging, and unjust. Probably because I have kids of my own, and if they were to conduct themselves in a similar manner, in a similar circumstance, I would actually be relieved and quite proud; kids like these should be praised for their good judgment, restraint and overall resilient attitude in the face of fairly bizarre circumstances.

I couldn't let it slide. So I posted a response to the Facebook crowd, to the ones calling for heads and all the thumbs up/disgust with these despicable and horrid kids...ruin them! Of course I knew I'd find similar at GOS, so I did something I thought I'd never do and copy/paste there. Maybe finally get banned I guess...but for some odd reason I can't fully articulate, I just HAD to.

If you haven't guessed, it's the, by now infamous, Covington incident in D.C. The knee-jerk and now later backpedal, but still spin them as at fault/monsters, is still erroneous and the snippets/splicing/editing being shown is still viable, because who's gonna watch 106 minutes of video to ascertain themselves?

Me, that's who. I watched it...every goddamn second. Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3EC1_gcr34

Very similar to my aforementioned posts on FB/GOS, is what I observed, with mostly a copy/paste:

Every second, I was expecting at least some of what I'd seen splashed across the internet would surface. Not even close.

The Covington students did not have any "aggressive form of political expression." It was the opposite.

The students neither performed tomahawk chops, nor engaged in any mocking, no chanting, "build the wall."

And that "revisionist account" from reason.com? I actually found that to be the closest to reality seen in the video, followed closely by the azcentral account (that latter took as fact the "aggressive students toward the 4 black men," whereas it was the opposite).

What follows, are any relevant facets of the incident that I observed in the video, where I had taken notes:

A group, self-identified as, "BHI," are "preaching." Some key elements these "BHI" espoused during the video:

"Wicked people will die...the Lord says to warn that wicked people, whoever's living foul, whoever's breaking the commandments of God, whoever's a faggot, and a lesbian, and a dyke, and a child molester...and like this child molesting priest right there...God says...that's what I'm doin'."

"Look at this dumb ass nigger (referring to a black guy getting offended)...stupid ass nigger...coon ass...super Sambo ass"
"Now you want to be a simple nigger too, what's wrong with you?"
"You're an asshole on a skateboard (to random board rider)."
"As soon as he gets too close, his ass gonna get punished (about same random board rider)."
"Get too close! As soon as you get too close, your ass is going down! Get too close, your ass gonna be laid out! You peckerwood, ass, bastard! (same random board rider, about 8-15 feet away, minding his own business, riding in circles)...I bet you he's a dumb ass Puerto Rican!"
"As soon as he get too close, I'm gonna tear his ass up (looks for a weapon in his stuff). He think I'm playing, I'm gonna whack the fuck outta his ass."
"As soon as he get too close (the rider that has kept his distance, doing nothing other than ride in circles that have actually increased to a distance of about 15 feet at minimum, and is nowhere to be seen at the moment), I'm gonna knock him down and fuck him up!"

The Covington kids (congregated a distance away and waiting for bus) are now taunted by the "BHI." The "BHI," refer them:

"dusty ass animals"
"bunch of child molesting faggots"
"a bunch of pedophiles"
"dirty ass crackers"
"racist bastards"
"peckerwoods"
"a bunch of future school shooters...(kids move further away at that)...(chuckle) look at their ass...their ass scatter for that one!"
"Yeah! They look like they about to shoot up a school right now!"
"slivery ass bastards"
"incest babies"
"get rid of that lice off your back"
"bunch of hyenas...bunch of dogs"

Build a wall? Those kids never said that...the only wall mention, is from "BHI," never heard kids say it. Kids do some of their school cheers...stated as such in a later interview and sure sounded like the school-sport type of cheers students do on the video; that was before the interjection of Phillips, and was apparently to drown out the vitriol they have been subjected 50+ minutes.

Feigning tomahawks, taunting the "poor native-american drummer/Phillips, mocking him? The only thing remotely close to that, was those "school cheers" where some adventurous kid, producing some levity, ripped off his shirt, and performed antics that coincide with one of their sport cheers; it's quite clear at 1:09:48. Hilarious. This is well before Phillips with his drum and could not be construed as mocking, because he hadn't arrived on scene during that time...nowhere. The chanting started well prior to Phillips wandering over, continued ongoing as he approached and finally entered, and were neither directed toward him, nor mocking native americans; they were clearly their school-spirit antics that they had attempted as drowning tactic to dispel the hour's worth of spewed hate directed them. Their school-spirit cheers are garden-variety chants seen at thousands of high-school sport events, nation-wide. I suppose the kids jumping at about 1:12:34, as the drummers were approaching, with hand raised could be stretched by confirmation bias, but note that another person, walking alongside Phillips, gives impression a part of the approaching drummer group and is bouncing, hand raised (camera in-hand), similarly, and the kids probably took signal to react in kind. If you're concerned that the 1:13:01 dance is somehow a mock, no, that looks to me as Orange Justice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-LCvYPbCVA

Just a meme to go with the new beat.

I nearly coughed up my coffee at 1:13:44, when one of the "BHI" states, "Hey, now they gonna join in, huh?...Did he calm all these white person's down?...He calmed them all down. All these person were becoming demonic, and 'Dad' came in and calmed them all down."

What cognitive dissonance on display! The kids have done nothing, while being verbally antagonized for over an hour by this group, and somehow, in these warped minds, the kids weren't calm, but are now being calmed by their 'Dad'? Utterly warped interpretation of what has transpired so far.

This "mocking" claim, is also the verbiage of the delusional group that spewed that 100+ minutes of hate, those "BHI." They mention the "mockery" at 1:14:20: "Look how they mock us! Serious mockery, with their Make America Great Again hats." They were referring to the wearing of the hats, as the mockery. So that "mocking" assertion is simply regurgitating the spin of this scene, direct from the "BHI," that have spent the last 74 minutes calling everyone faggots, assholes, dykes, niggers, pedophiles, bastards, dirty ass crackers, dogs, animals, etc., and muttering threats about using an implement to beat the shit out of anyone within range; you chose to believe their delusional tale, misattributed toward the wrong group, over the factual evidence showing these kids have done nothing other than be in the wrong place, wrong time, and got pummeled with hatred from random strangers for 74 minutes so far, while standing around waiting for their school bus.

The "BHI," continue to call them:

"You're all a bunch of school shooters. You all got the school shooter haircut. It's in your eyes!"
"You's a cracker! All of you, crackers!"
"Ya'll got one nigger in the crowd, huh? One nigger, huh? Oh, you got two niggers in the crowd?"
"Get out, nigger!"
"What does the Trump water taste like? Does it taste like incest?"
"This is a faggot, child molester!"
"Christ is coming back to kick your white asses! Christ is coming back to kick your crackers asses!"
"He's proud to be a product of sodomy."
"You give faggots rights." (to the boo of the students)
"Tell that to Bill Cosby. What are we laughing at? What? You ate some brownies? You ate brownies, you took a piece of the peace pipe?"
"Ain't gonna be no peace, until blood is shed!"
"If you're a bunch of child molesters, if you're a bunch of faggots, if you're a bunch of dykes, your prayer ain't bein' heard!"

One of the kids, responds, "We don't judge you," following 85 minutes of pure hate directed toward them from the "BHI," yet the kids, are the haters?

Kids leave at 1:26:46, as the bus arrived. "BHI," redirects their verbal assault on a new group of people engaged in a nearby prayer circle for the remainder of the video.

None of the kids even returned simple jeers, or insults; they remained cordial, and mostly just astonished. Nearly everywhere I look online, has it all backwards. Most likely, because Phillips fed that same twisted, backward tale to later interviews and the "news" ran with it. He claimed he could sense the "hate" coming from the kids, that he needed to defuse; it was the exact opposite situation. Those kids never said "build a wall," those kids never displayed hate, those kids did absolute nothing to warrant even mild admonition; they sat silent for 50+ minutes, absorbing attack without reaction, eventually did some school chants, then looked with slight confusion and bemusement as some lone stranger approached this bizarre scene with drums, furthering the strange spectacle to a level I'm sure none of these kids had ever been witness, or could have foreseen at the beginning of their day. I watched the full 106 minutes and saw nothing like what these people online and the "news" described that first day. I challenge anyone to watch the full thing and tell me where my observations are wrong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3EC1_gcr34

That kid's "hate" is imagined, misplaced, since all the hate being spewed for nearly two hours would be correctly placed elsewhere. I'll give you one guess who was the only group evincing hate during the entire 106 minutes...it's obvious to all but those who willfully remain blind.

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Shahryar's picture

Why would they stay someplace for 85 minutes if they were being harassed?

Also hello and goodbye.

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6 users have voted.

@Shahryar You're a student, in D.C., from Kentucky. Your school says to be here, at X to catch the bus home, don't be late. What do you do? You get there early, and wait. Where would they go? They have to be sure to get their bus ride home, to another state. They can't pick up and leave.

That was the situation; they were simply waiting in their assigned spot to catch their ride home.

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13 users have voted.
dkmich's picture

@Shahryar

All opinions are welcome as long as they are polite.

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11 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

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@dkmich I don't support Trump. I don't much care for Catholicism. Why does support for decent-acting teenagers become, "ZOMG! You support Trump!"

Non sequitur. When I see what truly happened and how these kids truly acted, regardless of their faith, their political leanings, I see respectable behavior in response to some horrid conditions, and for that, they should be praised, rather than the venom and vengeful reactions toward them.

It's infuriating to treat young people this way. Is that the new answer? To severely punish and ruin young people for decent behavior? Is that the new teaching? I can't handle it.

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10 users have voted.
dkmich's picture

@ChezJfrey @ChezJfrey

I don't like Democrats or Republicans, and I am getting equally fed up with the so-called right and the so-called left.

I don't really know what happened there, and I don't care. Perhaps if Nathan Phillips had spoken to the kids and explained he wanted a pathway through or was trying to protect them, the students wouldn't have looked like they did. Mr. Phillips said, "the spirit of the drum moved them and the students joined in". As I said, I've heard so many stories I don't know what to believe. All I know is that this incident isn't worth all the time, media attention, wars, and hard feelings it stirred.

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16 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

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@Shahryar
the video is there for you to watch. fast-forward if you want, but to assert an outright denial of the reality that the poster asserts is right there for you to witness at your leisure, without dipping your toes into the video evidence, seems epistemologically dubious.

people are not logical; making arguments that somebody wouldn't have done something, just because it seems to us from the comfort of our keyboards to be "not what they would have done" is the same kind of reasoning that gets used against, for example, crime victims. just a few months ago, we had the spectacle of people denying the narrative of someone who claimed to have been assaulted as a teenager, on the grounds that, "If she'd really been that upset, she would have told her parents what happened." I heard exactly that claim being made by a woman who, I happen to know, was so browbeaten by her own father that she probably wouldn't have told him even if she'd been raped, never mind assaulted, for fear of the wrath that would fall upon her.

neither you nor I, far removed generationally and culturally from the subjects, has any real idea of how a bunch of schoolkids from Kentucky would react under any circumstance at all. until and unless i work up the energy and curiosity to peruse that video myself, i will withhold my judgment -- but i mean that fully: I will assume that I do not know what happened, and I will decline to nod with thin-lipped concurrence as anyone else rants one way or the other about what happened.

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17 users have voted.

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Shahryar's picture

@UntimelyRippd

towards a school that also (regardless of what happened in DC) allows students to dress in blackface as if they don't recognize the historical significance of it.

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12 users have voted.
dkmich's picture

@Shahryar

and the blackface put you over the top? Islam is even worse. Still, thanks for helping us to understand. You are absolutely right. Religion is not good in so many ways. None of that, however, is relevant to what just happened in DC. Suffice it to say, this incident had a lot of people acting badly.

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6 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

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Shahryar's picture

@dkmich

but if you want to know, it was the Pope approving Hitler that put me over the top there.

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11 users have voted.
dkmich's picture

@Shahryar @Shahryar

What put me over the top was a priest refusing to go into a Lutheran cemetery to say a prayer over my grandfather at his funeral. I was 8. My mother made me make communion and confirmation, but I bolted just as soon as I could find an escape path.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

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@Shahryar is the reason they were there in the first place to attend The March for Life. So apparently the school thought it was a good idea to send teenage boys to DC to be part of an anti abortion march.

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17 users have voted.
Shahryar's picture

@pro left

These poor young brown shirts red hats wearing their fascist Trump hats, politely working to make abortion illegal, have been judged!

As for this video, that's an awful long time to sit through something that doesn't show what happened.

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8 users have voted.
dkmich's picture

I did join the Twitter wars on this, and I am not sorry. I am tired of the tribalism and the SJWs acting like they own the planet. I remember the years I sat biting my tongue over Reagan in all the Chamber meetings I had to attend for work. I swore never again. So, here it goes.

I don't know if the boys were assumed guilty because they were white males or wearing a red MAGA hat. All I know is that a serious breach in communication obviously transpired, and I'm not sure what I would have done if some guy marched into my space beating a drum in my face without one word of explanation or an excuse me.

Nathan Phillips has been treated as if he was Moses or the second coming of Christ due to his native American identity and his activism. He was at Standing Rock, but I can't find anything on it other than he was there. Bottom line, Nathan Phillips is just a guy like any other guy. I am sure he does good and bad. All I know is that I don't have to take him or the media at face value any more than I have to believe a woman's allegations because she has a vagina.

I saw Nathan Phillips interviewed on local TV in Detroit several times. I believe he lives here now. Each interview, his story changed. He said he was a "rapper", and he looked like he was enjoying his 15 minutes of fame immensely. The media was leading him, and he was enjoying the telling of the tale. Each interview Phillips did and the bigger the hubbub grew on SM, the more aggrieved he became, and his tale of victimization grew.

As I too got fed up with the liberal lynch mobs blindly following crap media, I did a little digging. I have no idea how reliable any of this information is, but it is what I found.

1. Phillips is a veteran. He did not serve or claim to serve in Viet Nam, but he didn't bother to correct the claim that he was a Viet Nam Vet.
2. He did claim to be a Viet Nam era vet and a Recon Ranger in the military, whatever a recon ranger is. As it turns out, he wasn't a recon ranger at all. He was a fridge mechanic who went awol 3 times according to his DD214.

Nathan Phillips’ DD-214, obtained via FOIA by retired Navy SEAL Don Shipley, also conflicts with Phillips’ claim that he was a “recon ranger” in the Marines, reported the blog Red State. The DD-214 indicates Phillips was stationed stateside in the Marine Corps Reserves as a refrigerator mechanic and was cited for being AWOL three times. After four years of service, he was discharged as a private.

3. In 2015 he got into a hassle with a bunch of Eastern Michigan University students. He claimed they were harassing him, and he called the cops. When the cops came, there was no evidence of a party. Again, Mr. Phillips went to and inserted himself into the crowd of students. University cops said they would investigate. No charges were ever filed.

4.

Phillips repeatedly has changed his account of the incident on Friday afternoon with the Covington Catholic High School students. He originally told the Washington Post the students swarmed him as he left the Indigenous People’s March, and he charged student Nick Sandmann blocked his path.
It was a viral video of his face-to-face encounter with Sandmann accompanied by Phillips’ claim that the boys confronted him that fueled the misreporting. Longer videos emerged, however, refuting Phillips’ version, showing Phillips approached the high school boys during their school cheers. And some of the people with him were hurling racial insults at the boys.
Phillips then altered his story in an interview with the Detroit Free Press, claiming he was a peacemaker who was trying to stop the boys’ racial insults directed at four “old black individuals,” referring to members of a group called the Black Hebrew Israelites.
“These young men were beastly and these old black individuals was their prey, and I stood in between them and so they needed their pounds of flesh and they were looking at me for that,” he said.

I believe that the tribes saw what they wanted to see. The calls for violence against these kids should have been deleted from all the sites. They identified one of the students wrongly and crashed a family wedding in protest. What pissed me off the most wasn't the kids or Mr. Phillips. It was the "liberals" all over social media acting totally insane.

I don't want to demean Nathan Phillips. I'm sure there is a lot of good in him. But, I will not take what he says or the media says he said as the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth either.

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24 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

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snoopydawg's picture

@dkmich

Here's some more

IMG_2843_0.JPG

Now ain't that some hard hitting truth about the people who are so upset about the things that Trump is doing after they gave Obama a pass for the things he did? Oh yeah. And after they gave W shit for doing them in the first place?

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19 users have voted.

There is now no depth that cannot be reached in the effort to bamboozle Democrats and keep them stupid and needlessly fearful

Pluto's Republic's picture

@snoopydawg

The accusation of "Whataboutism" is the mewling defense, and lame attempt to distract and disrupt logical thinking — that is used by hypocrites when their obvious prejudices have been exposed.

I'm not seeing that here, just voicing my recent pet peeve directed at the deliberately ignorant and the philosophically challenged, who contribute nothing to civilization.

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10 users have voted.
dkmich's picture

@dkmich I didn't bother to read the article. As I've said at least ten times, this is ridiculous and should never have reached the scale it did.

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6 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

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snoopydawg's picture

I only saw a short video of the event which made it seem that the kid was being a brat by just standing there with the look on his face. The way the tweet was worded gave the impression that he stood in front of Phillips and wouldn't let him pass. Then I watched the longer version and saw it for what it was.

This got me thinking about how easy it is to get things so utterly wrong and how it's done on purpose. This is why the PTB keep pushing propaganda on us. It works.

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25 users have voted.

There is now no depth that cannot be reached in the effort to bamboozle Democrats and keep them stupid and needlessly fearful

dkmich's picture

@snoopydawg

The smirk on the boys face made me want to gently give him a tap on the nose with the drum stick.

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15 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

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@snoopydawg
I can think of two other significant examples.

A. Back in the 80s or 90s, somebody took a picture of some high profile Democrat at some kind of event in Central America, standing next to some lefty politician that the US was supposed to hate. The Democrat appeared to be holding up his hand in a clenched fist, but with the back of the fist facing the crowd -- kind of an odd thing, but anyway, the point that some right-wing media tool was trying to make was that this Democrat was down there waxing Comintern with the Sandinistas or something. It actually turned out that at that particular moment, the guy was gesturing to someone he knew to come over to them, and the camera had caught his hand at the moment of the wave when the fingers were folded to his palm.

B. The Rodney King trial debacle, when the lawyers for the police thugs took still photos from the original video and used them to try to persuade the jury that King was actively resisting -- even threatening -- the officers. Nevermind that when watching the video, there is no doubt at all that King is just a man being beaten almost to death, trying desperately to fend off the blows. It made me so angry I still haven't gotten over it -- that a judge didn't throw those lawyers in the clink for such an obvious abuse of the evidence and an obvious contempt for the truth.

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21 users have voted.

Sigh

dkmich's picture

@UntimelyRippd @UntimelyRippd

Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see.

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11 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

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Centaurea's picture

@dkmich
n/t

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10 users have voted.

"Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep ... Don't go back to sleep."
~Rumi

"If you want revolution, be it."
~Caitlin Johnstone

Shahryar's picture

there's so little of the kids and Phillips that you can't tell anything. It's pretty much an hour and 46 minutes of ranting, with an occasional truth.

So at 1:14:10 or so, was that delusional or that once in awhile truth?

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5 users have voted.
CS in AZ's picture

@Shahryar

I’ve been mostly avoiding this story, but I’m a sucker for getting to the truth beyond the spin. So... I watched. My initial reaction:

I did fast-forward through some parts with just those men yelling at everyone. I found the action hard to follow. Lots of yelling. Not clear to me which of the many people milling about the area are these particular students. Not sure how we know they are waiting for a bus, or why they are even there at this spot at that time. I’m assuming that info came from another source. They are on some steps in a very large crowd during the encounter with the NA drummers; it doesn’t look like a bus stop to me.

We do know they traveled to DC to attend a “right to life” anti-choice rally, and they wore MAGA hats, which are the trumpian version of pussy hats and intended to be provocative. So we know they were politically active and engaged, and willing to provoke. It seems maybe they got more than they bargained for or expected. Suggesting they were completely innocent bystanders on a school field trip is a stretch.

That being said, in the part where the Native Americans come toward them, it appears to me that the two groups (kids and Native Americans) are actually chanting together and getting along just fine, at least in the beginning. It seemed they had united against the obnoxious yelling men, who started calling it “mockery” due to the MAGA hats.

The old Native guy, Phillips, his story has changed and he’s not reliable. The whole thing is pretty crazy. And unfortunate.

I have a problem with any high school sending students to a DC rally to protest reproductive rights. Teenage boys trying to get rid of the right to choose, my reaction is f*ck them, and especially f*uck their parents, their school, and their church. If they weren’t there trying to interfer with other people’s rights and freedoms, they would not be in this hot water. So there is that. But it does seem the story being pushed in the media is quite inaccurate. So what else is new? Lots of screwed up people on all sides of this mess.

It will blow over soon, I imagine. I think the anti-choice MAGA kids will be ok, and I won’t be surprised if they end up invited to the White House for fast food hamburgers.

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13 users have voted.

@CS in AZ @CS in AZ I see a few here, from others, and some of your statements.

We have one taking issue with something else there school does, at other times, irrelevant to the situation at hand, but an attempt to, "dig up dirt," to support the "evil" assertions and thereby "justify" crushing these infidels, namely about the "blackface".

Turns out, that became a "thing" awhile back: https://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/05/sports/ncaafootball/05blackout.html

several teams have promoted “blackouts,” urging fans to dress a bit like Johnny Cash in an attempt to create an intimidating atmosphere, build camaraderie and, basically, look cool

Blackouts have rolled through college football most of all

Among other colors:

Whiteouts — or yellow-outs, or red-outs

With that revelation, well, then it became, "Well, it's insensitive and even if they are naive about the implications and offensiveness, well, they need to burn anyway."

Case in point, see Shahryar above:

No sympathy if they [sic] dress in blackface as if they don't recognize the historical significance of it.

The implication being, that even if these students are dressing in black, non-maliciously, and possibly unwittingly offending, even if in their minds it may as well be painting themselves blue, orange, green, they must burn and suffer, for no reason other than "I" take offense at their choice of particular color!

Then, pro left, above, and you make a similar point about these student attending for pro-life purposes.

So, a group of young people, want to address their government, at an old-fashioned, grass-roots level, and because you don't like their idea, they don't get a right to their speech and ideas, because how dare they wrong-think against my wishes; they need to be punished...forever ruined this day forward!

Or, as you allude, their teacher/school authorities are offensive for sending these kids on such a venture, so the kids need to burn on social media and futures ruined, because their authority figures engaged wrong-think.

Or, further, well, they'll be fine, because Trump and invitations to White House and hamburgers.

But what about another time, a future, when that idea is not embraced by the White House, and there are no cheeseburgers for an ordeal of this type? What if they are not of the more upper castes? Yet, the cavalier attitude now, sets yet another precedent, and future wrong-think, which today is OK-think, or good-think, but has flip-flopped...do we want these young people to burn, be persecuted and learn the lesson that if you think a certain way, if you engage politely for your ideals, well, they're wrong, should never think such, you will be punished? What lesson does that teach? Keep your mouth shut, else...or, worse, stop being cordial, polite, it makes no difference, which leads to what? Handy guess is they become vengeful, ruthless, "fuck 'em, they'll hate me anyway, just do it and shove it down their throat."

Is that what we want? I've seen this and it's ugly. I can't condone treating youth these types of lessons when they acted so well; it turns people the other way 'round.

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7 users have voted.
Shahryar's picture

@ChezJfrey

I don't think I can excuse blackface because it's a tradition at their school. However you disagree. Next I'd like to see you make a similar comment about how it's unfair to do background research on Phillips.

Or, and this is my opinion, it might be a good idea to know more about everybody.

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6 users have voted.

@Shahryar the "Blackout" is that pro and college sports started the trend some years ago, and high school/teenagers will undoubtedly emulate it; kinda hard to fault them for wanting to, "Be Like Mike," where sports are concerned.

As for this,

Next I'd like to see you make a similar comment about how it's unfair to do background research on Phillips.

I tend to think a guy like Phillips is "asking for it." What follows is why I say this, where normally I might not.

First, he apparently makes a "vocation" out of these types of scenes/protests, so he's a fairly public figure, with a history.

After the Covington scene, in a CNN interview, he mentions being a "Vet during Vietnam." But he also states these things:

"I heard them saying, 'Build that wall! Build that wall!'" - A lie, the kids said no such thing, on any video I've watched

"angry faces" - a lie, the only angry faces were BHI

"Oh, what I was witnessing was just hate? Racism? Well, hate." - He implies the kids, but that is a lie; the only hate and racism was spewed by BHI, toward the kids.

"To be honest, they looked like they were going to lynch them (the 4 BHI). They were in this mob mentality." - A lie; the only person actively talking violence, was BHI toward the skateboarder.

"maybe 200 young men there facing down what? Four individuals? Why did they need 200 people there other than it's hate and racism? They had their target. They had their prey. I felt like I denied them their prey. I felt like I denied them their prey and so they were going to take it out on me." - A lie, the kids never threatened anyone, nor were they looking to in any video I've seen; again, the only violent individuals, were BHI -- his statement is backward and untrue if you watch the videos.

So he lied about every key facet of the situation; many other people will notice this, then wonder, "what else is he lying about...that veteran's status, perhaps?"

So it seems natural, if he's going to lie about major elements of these situations, that are clearly evident, people are going to start digging into other things he does/says that are false -- ergo, he's asking for it by being a habitual liar.

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9 users have voted.
Deja's picture

@ChezJfrey
This is reminding me of the thrown chairs and chants of 'English only' by racist, sexist BernieBros (that never happened), in 2016. That too was perpetuated by a well-known "activist" on the "left", and run with by msm.

I have not watched the video in the OP. Just saw the very well filmed "confrontation" money shot on the news. Lurked at work. All this might have been said already, but I haven't gotten through all the comments.

Team Blue Playbook, anyone?

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4 users have voted.

"The gatekeepers must change."
Prince

dkmich's picture

@Shahryar @Shahryar

When I have a man on TV every time I turn it on fanning the flames of the SJWs on social media and changing his story with every appearance, yeah I want to know who the hell he is. Even more, I want to know to know who was the first to plant this story. As I clearly stated, I don't know how much of what I found is true but I found enough to convince me to be cautious of what I was being fed. I do know that there was a response pushing through denying the charges, Phillips didn't come across as trustworthy, and I wasn't swallowing or interested in any of this ridiculous nonsense. I don't trust the media, politicians, and social media.

The red hats are only provocative to the Resistance crowd. Being opposed to abortion is what catholics do. Why the school had the kids at a political rally, I can't explain without more information. Perhaps the chaperones did nothing because there was nothing requiring a response rom them. The school apologized for any bad behavior by their students and said they would investigate. As Twitter and FB lost their minds, it was reported they were closing the school for everyone's safety and would hire an outside investigator to look into the event. Apparently, once they experienced the wrath of the peace-loving, open-minded, tolerant left, they felt more than a drum beating man might come to their school.

I support abortion, I am opposed to religion. Good thing I don't get to dox, villainize, or make illegal everything I disagree with.

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7 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

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Shahryar's picture

@dkmich @dkmich

You took the trouble to get some background on Phillips. I looked up the school. Neither of us liked what we saw. Yet you think the school's background is irrelevant but Phillips' is.

So don't chide me for finding that the school is a hotbed of intolerance unless you throw out everything about Phillips that isn't about this particular few minutes.

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4 users have voted.

@Shahryar
is a logical fallacy, whereas looking at Phillips' background in this situation is not.

You took the trouble to get some background on Phillips. I looked up the school. Neither of us liked what we saw. Yet you think the school's background is irrelevant but Phillips' is.

So don't chide me for finding that the school is a hotbed of intolerance unless you throw out everything about Phillips that isn't about this particular few minutes.

Let's presume you are correct, that the school is a hotbed of intolerance. Fine.

How does that have any relevance to what actually happened? Did you see any display of this racial intolerance? Anywhere?

Did the students initiate a confrontation? No.
Did the students threaten, harass, antagonize BHI or Phillips, or any natives among Phillips' group? No.
Did this presumed "hotbed of intolerance" show in any of the student actions? No.

In this situation, it doesn't matter where they come from, what they believe, because they did nothing in that situation to demonstrate, illustrate, or back up this supposed intolerance.

Now Phillips, goes on TV, and explains that this angry mob of teenagers, were racist and bigots, and about to descend on the hapless BHI group and he had to intervene between these predators, and their prey. His specific words. Watching the video, seeing where he admits and acknowledges that he knows what BHI says/does, that is an outright lie that anyone can see/hear from the lengthy videos and he was THERE.

We also see him stroll up, nose-to-nose with one of those kids, raise a drum right next to the kid's face, and bang in his ear for minutes-on-end. Given we know, that he knows, they have suffered immense persecution and verbal assault from BHI for the last hour, I can only presume he did this deliberately and I then surmise, from his later fabrications about it, he was probably trying to provoke some sort of reaction from this kid, maybe a shove, or a turned back...something to then persecute and pile on the "racist! bigot!" narrative.

Phillip's background, including the constant lying, is worthy of investigation as it is individual, provides context and possible theories of motive. The background of the school is erroneous, because actual behavior is the only relevant facet and also, this "school background" is not monolith, so does not apply to every student -- they are individuals. The individuals in this case, did nothing to provoke, instigate, or charge them any wrongdoing.

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2 users have voted.
Shahryar's picture

@ChezJfrey

We also see him stroll up, nose-to-nose with one of those kids, raise a drum right next to the kid's face, and bang in his ear for minutes-on-end. Given we know, that he knows, they have suffered immense persecution and verbal assault from BHI for the last hour, I can only presume he did this deliberately and I then surmise, from his later fabrications about it, he was probably trying to provoke some sort of reaction from this kid, maybe a shove, or a turned back...something to then persecute and pile on the "racist! bigot!" narrative.

this is pure BS. It's absolutely your bias and opinion that makes you see this since the video sure doesn't show it. You "presume" and "surmise".

I object to the double standard of looking into what you think of Phillips but rejecting the background of Covington Catholic. I especially reject this ludicrous idea that kids dress in blackface because they want to be cool like Johnny Cash!

In fact, your own link betrays that argument. It's about sports fans dressing in black. Not wearing blackface. Dressing in black. Yet you present them as the same thing.

I have no problem with the idea that nothing like what was reported happened. I have no problem with it being some media exaggeration. But that's not what you're doing here. You're trying to prove that the reporting was wrong based on flimsy evidence and misrepresentation.

and that's what I can't take!

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3 users have voted.

@Shahryar I've watched those too. I presumed nothing, but simply watched it happen.

Face to face https://youtu.be/GKZn2e9wDBs?t=1062

At 17:38, puts the drum next to the kids face and beats on it, in his face, until 20:33. That clip cuts off, so presumably ongoing even after that.

You keep calling it blackface. You keep taking exception to Johnny Cash...I'm sure that JC reference was reporter speculation, is superfluous...who cares what their motivation to color coordinate at sporting events?. The simple fact is it's a sport phenomenon that is common. Comes in various colors too. I presume it's just the nature of sport fans to coordinate a color and often substitute clothing with instead, body paint when doing so..."hardcore!" You claim it's offensive blackface. Why are you correct, and I'm wrong? You claim my bias, yet I offer various examples to support (below), and you have what to back up this "blackface?"

Whiteout
https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/2f088d5ac1159664c38709ffd9c6ccfd4310fb7...
https://historymaniacmegan.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/0f0848eb1a45b5cb3...
http://media.pennlive.com/midstate_impact/photo/penn-state-whiteoutjpg-0...

Blueout
https://a5j0u479x2t4e35gducjhz15-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uplo...
https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/57029a3852bcd05c658ba78a-750-375.jpg
https://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/images/2016-0305-Duke-Blue-Devils-fans...
https://www.workinsports.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/sports-fans...

Green
http://townsquare.media/site/33/files/2011/06/fanatics.jpg?w=980&q=75
https://www.stemjobs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/University-of-Notre-...
http://fankraze.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Eagles-Fan-Body-Paint.jpg
https://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0608/galle...

Orange
https://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0610/camps...
http://www.sportsonearth.com/assets/images/6/9/2/99390692/cuts/_12_e0rvx...

I actually get it. This Nick kid stood in place, without moving and offended a mass of people. I am confident that the true answer is that there is nothing this kid could have done (or in his case, not do), that would not generate the outrage. You, and others, have given me the probable answer as to why. A simple test:

We know that Phillips deliberately walked into that crowd. Phillips admits this in his interview that he chose to intervene. He walks up to Nick, pounds on the drum, to his face, and Nick stood there, smiling. That's the extent of their interaction, and outrage ensues.

Explain to me what the proper response SHOULD have been, for Nick.

Given that the original narrative, that Nick was blocking Phillips is already dismissed, because that was not the case, we are left with what alternatives?

Nick standing motionless, not smiling = disrespectful, racist, mean, angry, scowling brat.
Nick asking him to leave him alone, go away = disrespectful, racist, mean, angry, brat.
Nick shoving him aside = aggressive, angry, racist, violent brat.
Nick pushing aside the annoying drum in his face = aggressive, racist, angry, violent brat.
Nick outright laughing at the crazy spectacle = disrespectful, racist, arrogant brat
Nick walks away = phobic, racist, bigot that can't stand to be near a native american
Nick turns his back = disrespectful, racist, arrogant, brat

Basically, there is nothing he could have done, after Phillips deliberately directed himself toward him (as per his own admission), raised that drum to his face, and pounded, that would satisfy.

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6 users have voted.
Shahryar's picture

@ChezJfrey

You claim my bias, yet I offer various examples to support (below), and you have what to back up this "blackface?"

And would you say that white power hand sign is just a kid signaling "ok"?

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1 user has voted.

@Shahryar
An action photo, taken around 1/800 second, during a spontaneous, active moment while stepping down a step to the floor, yelling for their team, combined with an angle that doesn't even give you a view, and that is the claim?

I give about as much chance as this one being white power...left side.

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1 user has voted.
CB's picture

@Shahryar

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CB's picture

@UntimelyRippd
I'm well aware it cuts BOTH ways and one can read into it whatever one wants. It depends more on the eye brain of the beholder than the person giving the traditional American "OK" sign - and that was my point. It tells me more about YOU than them.

BTW, in Brazil you would be signaling "Go fuck yourself" with that hand sign. Maybe Obomba was really born in Brazil? So we could have at least 4 reasons for Obama using this hand sign.

BTW, since when do we paint an entire group of people in a public space by the perceived actions of one individual. I am so fucking sick and tired of the bi-polar SJW morality police painting the world black and white, good and evil, right and wrong, left and right, even up and down. The world is nuanced.

I don't know what was in the water/air that the parents of these millennials drank when the fuckers were conceived and raised (possibly twatter and faecesbook?). Hopefully, Generation Z will give them a well deserved kick to the ass or this country will be permanently fucked.

I leave you-all with this:

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3 users have voted.

@ChezJfrey @ChezJfrey
that I know of was the "Sea of Red" put on by fans of the NHL's Calgary Flames. Ultimately though, the Sea of Red was overshadowed by the Winnipeg Whiteout, which was evidently a PR creation, invented for the Winnipeg Jets NHL team during the playoffs back in the 80s. It refers to a particular kind of epic weather event. Fans were encouraged to wear only white clothing, and were given white rally towels to wave. (pretty early appearance of rally towels as well, I think, but maybe not. EDIT: I guess the original whiteout they were only given those cheap little plastic pompoms to wave ...)

last year, the Winnipeg White Out returned with a fury after 19 years, as the team had a realistic shot at winning the cup. it's a pretty impressive tableau, actually.

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4 users have voted.

Sigh

@UntimelyRippd @UntimelyRippd @UntimelyRippd

certainly remember whiteouts coming on fairly early...I don't recall specifically black making its way into the trend until more recently, though my memory is not infallible, and I am certainly no "expert" on the phenomenon.

There are plenty of photos of people blacking themselves with paint for those too; I imagine the newer generations do not feel as constrained by the older stigmas (saw your post regarding that particular subject and the entire post was well articulated). I did not post them, because then they just fall to the same fate of "racist!" accusation...seemed pointless, but there are plenty to show precedent:

Blackout
https://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0708/campu...
https://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0809/campu...
https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/gazettetimes.com/content/tn...
https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/gazettetimes.com/content/tn...
http://www.themussblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Blackout-28.jpg
https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/mm/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn-s3.si....
http://originalpeople.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/LLeDr.png

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4 users have voted.
CS in AZ's picture

@ChezJfrey

I think you’re exaggerating the situation. No one said to “burn” them, etc.

I certainly didn’t say this:

because you don't like their idea, they don't get a right to their speech and ideas, because how dare they wrong-think against my wishes; they need to be punished...forever ruined this day forward!

They have the right to their speech and ideas. I have a right to think they are wrong. I never said they “need to be punished” either. And they are not “forever ruined” by any means.

What I actually said is, they were there to be politically provocative. Which is absolutely their right of course. But, as we know, actions have consequences. Sometimes being intentionally rude to strangers and being provocative, um, provokes reactions.

That is life, and these anti-choice kids and their parents and school should all know that. Sometimes fucking with other people’s lives turns around and bites you in the ass. Especially in this day and age of social media.

I’m really not sure why you seem to believe they should be exempt from the natural consequences of their decisions.

But regardless, they not being burned or executed or destroyed or other hyperbole.

They will be heros, already are, to many people.

Trump will likely give them presidential accolades of some kind, if not hamburgers at the White House.

The media is already backtracking and going after Phillips now, while MAGA boy is getting interviews (which he’s not too traumatized to accept).

So I believe they will be fine. Getting some blowback is the consequence, it’s not a death sentence or ruined forever. I don’t think they deserve that, and I don’t think that’s what is happening.

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9 users have voted.

@CS in AZ My hyperbole was a general sense of commentary I've seen on the internet and was not specific toward you; I apologize that I did not make that clear as I am mostly running off the cuff with a thousand thoughts.

But that's no excuse for unfairly characterizing it in a way that jumbled my direct quote of you, then transferring over to my "generic" thoughts about what I gather some other people are saying online.

Sometimes fucking with other people’s lives turns around and bites you in the ass. Especially in this day and age of social media.

That's actually a fair point and I'm glad you typed it up, because honestly, in my initial angst over this thing, I had not considered that yes, even at age 16, in today's insta-info/social media world, that sort of thing can indeed bite your ass and even youth should know/learn this fact (actually, I think many youth know this better than some older folks),

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Shahryar's picture

@ChezJfrey

I don't believe Johnny Cash dressed in blackface

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10 users have voted.
dkmich's picture

@Shahryar @Shahryar

I can’t bring myself to care enough to watch. I am glad others have so I can benefit from their efforts.

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5 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

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Shahryar's picture

@dkmich

73 minutes of a group of 4 or 5 people, possibly deranged, yelling at everyone. A minute of Phillips approaching slowly, getting surrounded so you can no longer see what's happening, a few seconds of the BHI guys saying the kids are mocking Phillips, then the camera goes off it and we see nothing else of what made the news but we get another half hour of ranting.

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7 users have voted.
Shahryar's picture

https://rewire.news/article/2019/01/22/white-washing-white-supremacy-med...

I'd also provide a link of kids harassing a woman at the event but I can't say it's the same group, only that they're the same age with the same hats, yelling "maga".

Anyway in the article I've linked here there's a video that shows a bit more. These nice young lads don't seem threatening but doing that "tomahawk chop" while singing that offensive Florida State chant is definitely disrespectful.

"Kudos" to the school authorities for doing nothing.

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7 users have voted.
shaharazade's picture

These young brown shirts in the making are not decent kids. My objections are not based on partisan lines as I'm not a Democrat.I don't give a rats ass about the Native American activist's credentials or self promotion. I remember him from Standing Rock. What I do resent and find offensive is the posters claims that these young thugs are being maligned. BS. I think people should stop this shit that says there are two sides when fascistic elements show up at marches or rallies and people say they have a right. Sure they do but why defend the indefensible. BS. I say call them what they are and stop quibbling about the minutiae of dueling video's. I watched them or their school mates harass women and dress in black face. Their chants are disgusting. Sure they are free to air their scary dangerous beliefs but mano'man I draw the line at calling them decent. This goes beyond political partisanship and starts into the dangerous territory of excusing or equivocating these fascistic/religious creepy nutters at marches and rallies with say a Native American self promoter. By the way why are you defending these creeps? Do you hate women? What is your problem? So glad my kids are not little smug brown shirts like your defending.Then again they we're not raised in Kentucky by a mother who blamed Black Muslims for their unacceptable behavior and did not get sent to a Catholic buggery school. Enough with this defense of these young pig ignorant nasty thugs.

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8 users have voted.

@shaharazade

By the way why are you defending these creeps? Do you hate women? What is your problem?

Now on ignore.

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6 users have voted.
Shahryar's picture

@ChezJfrey

How do you personally feel about Roe v Wade and legal abortion?

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3 users have voted.
Pluto's Republic's picture

@shaharazade

Two separate processes.

I draw the line at calling them decent

If those boys were in DC, marching so they can legally transform women back into livestock — which women have been for millions of years — then "depraved" is a better word for them than "decent."

But, there's an overarching intellectual honesty that must be maintained. Intellectual honesty is what confers the moral authority to designate them as "depraved." What happened, objectively, while they were waiting for that bus (compared to what was reported in the media) must be viewed with complete intellectual honesty, divorced from prejudice. (Even if they are completely depraved in their attitudes toward women.)

Without intellectual honesty, we lose everything and there is no hope at all.

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17 users have voted.
CS in AZ's picture

@Pluto's Republic

Taking a look at the full situation with honesty and — most difficult — be aware of and work to confront biases and misinformation.

After ignoring this story, now I’m looking at it. On one hand, I think, just another media distraction. Maybe best ignored, and it will fade into the next social media blowup soon enough. Why care what actually happened? I don’t have a reason, and discussing this at all feels like dangerous ground.

Anyway, I found an article with the full statements directly from some of the students. I want to drop a link to come back to later.

Covington Catholic students and chaperones react to viral confrontation in D.C.

I have to go to work now, so I don’t have time to highlight the things that I think are important to look at for a more complete picture. The inconsistencies in their stories means, to me, not that the are lying but rather it highlights how differently individuals experience the exact same “real” events. It’s very much a matter of perspective.

Another thing clear to me from this set of statements is that a lot of responsibility lies with this school, it’s culture (an “all male school that likes to get hyped up” according to a student statement) and the adult chaperones who gave permission to spend their hour “waiting for transportation” in this area with multiple hostile confrontations going on — when they could have simply moved farther away and avoided it altogether (they were an hour early, in no danger of missing the busses). Instead they chose, and the teachers agreed, to stay and do “school spirit” chants.

It never even occurs to Nick to just step back when Phillips invades his space. The smiling stare-down instead of moving back a step or two was an interesting choice. He also claims to be clueless, entirely, about why they were noticed and approached in the first place. If that’s true, then another major fail on the part of the parents, teachers, and school.

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@Pluto's Republic That has been the struggle I've had with various people about my problem with this situation and the implications for learning/developing young adults and their future thinking/behavior; I would want to reward reasonableness, not punish, as to punish reasonableness, sends the wrong message and will ruin their tendency toward reasonableness in their future interactions.

It doesn't matter to me they support Trump. It doesn't matter to me why they were in D.C. Neither has any bearing on what transpired in that courtyard and these kids are also inherently entitled their beliefs and peaceable action to demonstrate, regardless of how I feel. But few I've attempted to debate this, will get past "Trump/Pro-Life Zealot" Those are automatic disqualifiers to afford these kids any mercy.

Given the situation, as it existed, namely waiting in their designated spot, and subjected to all that input, their reaction and behavior in the face of it was very benign and not out of line. Period. They did not deserve the doxxing, the calls by pundits and celebrities on social to be expelled, punched, woodchipper, Dylan Roof comparisons, etc...that sort of social-media-clarion-calling can be dangerous and I was appalled after watching the real event as there was nothing to warrant such virulence.

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4 users have voted.
CS in AZ's picture

@ChezJfrey

I disagree with the premise that they were “reasonable” in choosing to become involved in this confrontation. Per his own statement, they were not “waiting in their designated spot” and could have easily moved away to avoid it.

I arrived at the Lincoln Memorial at 4:30 p.m. I was told to be there by 5:30 p.m., when our busses were due to leave Washington for the trip back to Kentucky. We had been attending the March for Life rally, and then had split up into small groups to do sightseeing.

They had a full hour left for “sightseeing” and were not instructed to wait at this location. They could have waited farther away from these competing groups of angry protesters. They could have waited inconspicuously, rather than chanting loudly to add to the chaotic environment. I think that would have been the reasonable and prudent thing to do, if not looking to be involved.

Here’s the end of his statement, where he makes it clear they could have walked away at any point.

The engagement ended when one of our teachers told me the busses had arrived and it was time to go. I obeyed my teacher and simply walked to the busses.

Nick says he was aware of the cameras on him. I still wonder why it did not occur to him to simply step back or walk away, if he truly just wanted to defuse the situation like he claims. Engaging instead in a stand off, for really no reason, is not reasonable or good behavior, imo.

I am tending now to place most blame on the school and these teachers, who in my view should have defused the situation by saying to these boys, “No, don’t do loud, aggressive ‘school spirit’ chants here. Let’s take a walk and come back at 5:30 when the busses are due.” That would be reasonable.

They had a choice, and they chose to be confrontational instead. That’s what “objectively” happened.

I agree with you about the jump-the-gun media coverage. But I don’t agree with the perception that they had no role in what happened and were entirely reasonable and innocent either.

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5 users have voted.
shaharazade's picture

@Pluto's Republic not exist on social media. Twitter and FB are not the place to look for any kind of honesty. As for our so called press having any integrity or even telling the truth forgetabout it. Mainly on FB (I don't Tweet) I see crude name calling, hate, fear and absurd propaganda generated and spread by the dead as a doornail corporately owned press and media. Since when did it become okay or just a difference of belief to call freaking fascist's out? Okay so the BHI crowd wtf are they about? They certainly are bat shit crazy. Regardless of the culture war manipulation going on in this non-story, it's scary to me to see red hatted thugs young or old and to be told that they have a right to express their scary nationalism, hate, ignorance sexism and bigotry. I know a mob of white fascistic young thugs when I see them and these were not 'decent, well behaved' kids. Sure they have rights just like the KKK does,but that doesn't mean that people should tolerate and give them legitimacy when they are preaching the gospel of hate, intolerance, authoritarianism, and anti-human rights. If they go to march's or rallies and intimidate and bully people with their nasty agenda I have no sympathy for the push back they get. They too are self promoting activist's. Those red hats are to me like brown/black shirt's that were worn by the last wave of fascist youth that washed over the world. They come to Portland to spread their hate and the city/cops actually protects them when they lay into the so called antifa's. These antifa's are usually coalitions of activists from the left. Maybe people are sick and tired of the RW lunatics getting so much traction and equivalence in this frightening time. Me I don't bite the media's so called left fear mongering since it's all based on fake political news and stances.I too like dkmitch am sick of purposeless name calling and fighting but no way do I have any sympathy for the red hatted fascists among us.

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Big Al's picture

@shaharazade That's what it's all about, the fucking red hats. And we know what that means, regardless the excuses made. If there weren't any red hats, we wouldn't even be talking about it.

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@Big Al
to you as they mean to any particular individuals wearing them is not epistemologically supportable; nor does it validate declaring open season on deriving an irrational interpretation for anything and everything else that they might wear or say or do.

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Big Al's picture

@UntimelyRippd Wow.

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4 users have voted.

@Big Al
The truth is immune to your ironically rhetoricised indifference.

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@shaharazade @shaharazade
for some of us, almost always, almost everywhere, in almost all contexts.

And it gets us into trouble, because most people are more comfortable with their pre-programmed emotional responses to somebody else's expression of this or that or the other thing. It's more gratifying to get worked up into a spitting rage at someone that you already know you hate anyway, than it is to admit that even if they totally suck, they haven't done anything wrong in some particular moment.

For example, the intellectually honest perspective is that "blackface" refers, properly, only and ever to the wearing of black facial makeup by a white person in order to represent oneself, rhetorically or dramatically, as a black person. The intellectually honest perspective understands that context always matters, and that even the parents of those high schoolers are too young to have ever witnessed, much less enjoyed, an actual blackface performance, or even sat through an old movie on TV that employed blackface elements. Recently, a local high school's drama club were told that blackening the faces of the chimney sweeps in Mary Poppins was offensive. Here's what I say: Anybody who is offended by seeing white high school students with faces blackened in accordance with their role as Edwardian-era chimney sweeps should stay the fuck home, or shut the fuck up, because they are too stupid to be talking.

Again: context always matters. It's always okay to call a guy, "Dick," if his name is Dick. It's always okay to call an Irishman, "Mick", if his name is Mick. It's not offensive to include the word "cum" in a printed graduation booklet, so as to recognize those who have graduated summa cum laude, even if the graduate in question is a charming young woman named Fonda Cox (actual name of an actual woman who exists somewhere out there in America right now -- or at least, she did back in 1987). (What is offensive is ignorantly thinking that "cum" in reference to ejaculation is anything other than a semi-literate giggly dimwitted embarrassed-to-be-thinking-about-sex misspelling of the standard English word, "come". How long, I wonder, before the appearance of the participle "cummed" to replace "came". No, nevermind, I'm sure it's already endemic in certain illiterary circles.) It is not inappropriate to observe, at the office holiday party, that one has come at the insistence of the boss's wife. It is not racist to enquire of one's native american supervisor, having been assigned a task for which one is not trained, "How?" It is not indecent exposure and a sex crime for a school teacher to remove his trousers and underpants in front of his students, if the school teacher has just inadvertently poured sulfuric acid in his own lap. It is not an outrageous sexual assault for a school teacher to remove the trousers and underpants of a student in front of the entire class, if the student has just inadvertently poured sulfuric acid in his own lap -- to the contrary, it is imperative.

Sooner or later (so why not now?), we are going to stop insisting that because some white people used to wear black makeup on the face in order to mock and humiliate black people, it is inevitably and criminally insulting, insensitive and offensive for any white person to ever wear black facial makeup. We are going to assert the requisite intellectual honesty to permit fans of a sports team whose primary color is black to paint their faces black, just as fans of a sports team whose primary color is red can paint their faces red (notwithstanding the not equivalent phenomenon of "redface" performances of native american roles by caucasian actors) and fans of a sports team whose primary color is blue can paint their faces blue.

Alternatively, we can in the interim ratchet up the epistemologically groundless outrage, and demand that any Caucasian soldier who has ever blacked his face for the purpose of stealth be drummed out of the service, along with officers who allowed it and the quartermaster who provided the blacking. Also, we must fire all non-black baseball and football players who have ever worn eyeblack on their cheekbones to reduce glare from the sun, because as we've established, it doesn't matter why they're doing it, but only that they're doing it. Ah, the context-free life. I mean, yeah, we probably need to draw the line somewhere, as far as how much of the face must not be blacked -- I think we'll let cheerleaders continue to use eyeliner, as long as nobody from the middle east complains about cultural appropriation -- but we don't have to draw it anywhere reasonable since we've already elected to behave like idiots.

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9 users have voted.

Sigh

CB's picture

@shaharazade
to state it politely.

I'll leave you with this,.

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4 users have voted.
Pluto's Republic's picture

@CB

I'm so glad I did. Thank you for posting it. It is invaluable to see intellectual honesty broken down into a process, especially in the case at hand.

This can and should be applied to all of the issues we discuss. It was this discipline that made the Russia Hoax so very clear. It was the reason that it was such a grave mistake that Hillary run for the Presidency as a Democrat. Intellectual honesty is the basis for all the best things we have expressed on this website in this community.

It is what makes us credible and strong. It is the one thing that protects us — and separates us from those who are a drag on civilization. Intellectual honesty runs through all parts of our population like a river and it is the one and only thing that will reunite this divided nation.

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4 users have voted.

@CB
That guy went the extra mile with news reports/headlines and even Catholic text RE the "official" church authorities throwing them under the bus at first blush vs. their responsibilities per church doctrine.

Not surprisingly, when he recounts what happened, lo, it matched my descriptions above...we clearly did the duplicate work of analyzing the events.

Thanks for the post, that was worthwhile watch.

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3 users have voted.

I feel sorry when it hits and then c99ers fight like family, my old drunk family. That's what social media does to people's brains in my view. It makes them lose their shit, over what now. giddyup because everyone has different triggers. The best thing I ever did was not join FB or Twitter. thanks gawdess Twitter just moved thier backend database to the big google cloud, fyi. SCANALYZER got bigger while arguing about Catholics versus Indigenous or whatever. I'd like to lop off Junipero Serra's head myself, in my violent fantasies, which fortunately stay there in fantasy land.

That's my opinion, and I did not watch any march videos, I watched the Jimmy Dore video observing the social media reactions. But even before that, because on some days I am the luckiest girl in the world, I watched this other video. I live in Pomo territory, so...:

Lorin Smith, Kashaya Pomo Elder, drumming song (Part 7/7)

I started yawning right off, because that is just a guy beating a drum. meh. By the end I was all like, omg I feel different? Gonna go outside and take a walk and be friendly now. huh So imagine my thoughts about why that guy walked in to a crowd drumming. Maybe he was trying to spread some healing magic, not very aggressive. Looks like it did in fact work some magic on some people.

garbage in garbage out
cant we all just get along
PEACE

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9 users have voted.
gulfgal98's picture

These boys are kids who were and are being used as pawns in a culture war. As kids, they are not fully formed physically or intellectually. They have not been exposed to a wider range of ideas, religion or culture beyond what their parents and school have provided for them. And as teenagers, they are still immature children.

We must remember that not everyone grows up with the benefit of family, friends, religious institutions, or schools that encourage free thought. Some of us had to learn about the larger world as adults and on our own.

So regardless of what really happened, I cannot fault these boys and they did not deserve to be villified or doxed by media that was apparently trying to push a certain story line. Also, regardless of what their school stands for or allows, these boys are still pawns that the school and their parents used to indoctrinate them into their version of the culture war. Their parents, their school, the media and other participants are all adults and should bear the greater burden for whatever transpired.

Most negligently, the media decided to use these kids as pawns to project a certain story line designed to divert the public attention away from the gross problems that are facing us and to promote more social and cultural division. IMO, this was unconscionable.

In the end, all of us are being played by the oligarchy once again.

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17 users have voted.

"I don't want to run the empire, I want to bring it down!" ~Dr. Cornel West

"There is no instance of a nation benefitting from prolonged warfare." Sun Tzu

dkmich's picture

@gulfgal98

I agree with everything you said. I would really like to know who planted this seed.

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8 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

*donate to c99 *like us on Facebook *follow us on Twitter

@gulfgal98
meaning of this odd little socio-journalistic media explosion.

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5 users have voted.

Sigh

Eagles92's picture

I read this article yesterday and, IMO, it contextualizes this whole drama quite well.

Stop Trusting Viral Videos

(If someone's already posted it, I apologize!)

It's a long article, but here's the money quote:

Whether Sandmann and Phillips are telling the truth or not matters only marginally—the image and the clip take on a life of their own, reproducing a conflict that viewers have already been primed to seek out by the overall political situation and their place in it.

(emphasis mine)

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Lookout's picture

...of course as he admits he was raised a catholic kid. Pretty interesting to think that young white men go to DC to tell women what they should do with their bodies while wearing the pussy grabber in chief's caps.

Phillips religion has to be respected too. He was exercising his beliefs to defuse the conflict between the black kids and white kids. First nations peoples have rights too.
https://www.democracynow.org/2019/1/22/i_was_absolutely_afraid_indigenou...

NATHAN PHILLIPS: When I was asked to help defuse this moment, I picked up the drum. It’s a drum of—instrument of prayer. And so I took that drum and started hitting it and started singing a song known as the American Indian Movement song. It’s a song of unity. It’s a song of honor and respect and prayer. And that’s why I chose that song, is to bring unity between what I seen happening to the fabric of America, the racism, the bigotry. And as I sang, I was going to just stand at the side, but I was putting myself in prayer at that time. Just before I started that song, my prayer was “God, help me. Witness what’s going on here, God. Protect us.” And then, when I made that prayer—

AMY GOODMAN: Why did you say, “God, help me”? Were you afraid?

NATHAN PHILLIPS: I was absolutely afraid. There was a group of over 200 young angry white men who were displaying mob mentality. And they were facing down just four black individuals. And it was coming to a point where just a snap of the finger could have caused them kids to descend on those four individuals. I didn’t agree with the Black Israelites and what they were saying. But what I do believe is that America is a land of freedoms. And as much as I disagreed with those Black Israelites, they had the right to be there.

We always seem to want to have good vs bad...a lifetime of Hollywood I guess. However there is good and bad in everyone...white kids, black kids, first nation elders, and each of us. The world isn't black and white, it is gray, and this story expresses those contradictions.

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

@Lookout Would come to the conclusion that it was the kids that needed this "remedy."

to bring unity between what I seen happening to the fabric of America, the racism, the bigotry. And as I sang, I was going to just stand at the side, but I was putting myself in prayer at that time. Just before I started that song, my prayer was “God, help me. Witness what’s going on here, God. Protect us.” And then, when I made that prayer—

AMY GOODMAN: Why did you say, “God, help me”? Were you afraid?

NATHAN PHILLIPS: I was absolutely afraid. There was a group of over 200 young angry white men who were displaying mob mentality. And they were facing down just four black individuals. And it was coming to a point where just a snap of the finger could have caused them kids to descend on those four individuals. I didn’t agree with the Black Israelites and what they were saying.

Absurd. This guy admits to knowing what the Black Israelites are spewing, watches the kids respond, at a far distance, a bunch of school dances, and it's the kids that are violent and racist? Did you read the transcript, watch the video? Nobody, in any way, would conclude what Phillips claims. If anyone needed this "unity drumming" right up in their face, like he performed, it's BHI. His version is an outright lie, considering he admits to knowing BHI.

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7 users have voted.
Lookout's picture

@ChezJfrey

Here's there reporting of the incident in Indian Country...
https://newsmaven.io/indiancountrytoday/news/the-whole-story-before-and-...

Perhaps your own belief system clouds your judgement. Did you watch their prayers at Standing Rock...as private mercenary police released dogs and fire hosed the water protectors? Do you know about ghost dancers? First nations peoples are coming from a different place. Walk in their moccasins.

Nobody, in any way, would conclude what Phillips claims. If anyone needed this "unity drumming" right up in their face, like he performed,

You are wrong again. I do believe him.

I think Mr. Phillips truly was trying to defuse the situation between the two groups, and indeed he may have prevented a conflict. He is operating out of his belief system, just like the kids are expressing their conditioning wearing MAGA hats and protesting the rights of women.

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2 users have voted.

“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

@Lookout @Lookout @Lookout
How did we get to I have no empathy for first nations beliefs? What does that have to do with anything? I've never argued against Phillips intentions stated as his desire to intervene/defuse with a drum prayer; I'm sure that's true and is a noble endeavor. I merely comment that if that was his intent, it seems better suited to the BHI group because he already admitted that he knew what they were doing and I would think they would be the ones that needed this defusing; if I were in his moccasins, that would have been the best choice, because they were beyond hateful and in dire need of my help.

And what does Standing Rock and the persecution there have anything to do with this? Yes, I'm aware of the Standing Rock debacle and I was disgusted at the actions of LEO, Government and Corporate response; it was beyond infuriating.

You seem to think I'm anti-NA or something? Why do people do this?

This is the exact same scenario playing out with someone I know on Facebook, and no matter what the actual, documented video shows, he still believes that Nick stepped in front of Phillips and refused to allow him to pass. That is not what happened.

No, it has nothing to do with my belief system clouding my judgement. I have no belief system in play. But you do. You even state, "I believe him." That is the same problem my Facebook acquaintance has after he reviewed some video and "news" from various sources. You both would make a miserable detectives.

What I did, was evaluate what reporters claimed, what Phillips and a companion stated, then compare that to documented evidence (there is ample and extensive, uncut video) and make a determination about what was true. That's all I did. I also did not engage with any preconception, because I don't have any predilection toward these students or Phillips; I truly wanted to know whether these students were just horrible kids...I've seen enough terrible kids to know that there are plenty out there. But that is not the case for Nick; I focus on his actions alone now, because he is the one in the hotseat, getting interviewed and questioned about owing an apology, his is the face everyone is calling to punch and throw in a woodchipper, and he did none of the things being spouted...namely, mocking, blocking, being a horrible brat to poor Phillips. I'm going to disregard the other students "mocking" as that has clearly become a case of, "I believe it's mocking," vs., "I don't see mocking, I see kids attempting to join in," subjective debate. Let's focus on Nick.

Phillips made some statements that were undoubtedly true, and some of those statements very tellingly illuminate the fact that many of his other statements, and those of reporters, were false.

Let's start with your link, where it states: "...this is when the high school student steps in front of Phillips and doesn't move."

That is blatantly untrue.

See Nick here, just over the shoulder of the kid in the blue jacket? https://youtu.be/GKZn2e9wDBs?t=1010

That link is set to jump to the exact time we are starting: 16:50

Now continue watching...Nick never moves from this spot, and Phillips is behind/right of the camera, soon to come into view. He turns right/left, as he's playing to the crowd...other kids joining in/mocking (depending on your subjective view). But again, we're just evaluating Nick and how he, "steps in front of Phillips and doesn't budge...horrible brat" accusation.

He is more clearly visible as the camera pans around, drum is now in the picture: https://youtu.be/GKZn2e9wDBs?t=1018

Phillips swaying/turning back and forth with the drum, playing for his audience...not in a hurry to get anywhere, no apparent destination, other than to just play. Quite clear his intent is to play for them, and he even told everyone that's what he wanted to do.

He told CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/21/us/nathan-phillips-maga-teens-interview/i...): "...that we need to use the drum, use our prayer and bring a balance, bring a calming to the situation."

Keep watching...don't skip ahead, let it roll and Nick still in his spot at 17:22: https://youtu.be/GKZn2e9wDBs?t=1042

Phillips cameraman and backup still with him, just playing along and filming the "intervention." https://youtu.be/GKZn2e9wDBs?t=1047

Now they take one step forward, and we still see Nick, in his same spot, but Phillips is still turning side-to-side, playing to the audience left and right, but Nick is actually about 3 ft. away, unmoved from before, yet Phillips hasn't yet fully approached, because he is pausing in his position to play the crowd: https://youtu.be/GKZn2e9wDBs?t=1051

And now, Phillips take another step up, straight to Nick. https://youtu.be/GKZn2e9wDBs?t=1056

But, according to what, "everyone knows...'they' all say," Nick, "stepped in front of Phillips and didn't budge, blocking him!" Utter lie.

Nick had been in that same spot for the entire last minute we've watched, and judging by his actions since then, probably well before that. Nick literally has done nothing than stand there and watch/listen to this new drumming spectacle that entered their group and slowly, with pauses, eventually made their way to him on the edge of the circle that had parted for the drumming crew; a deliberate intervention to quell their, "hate...It looked like these young men were going to attack these guys. They were going to hurt them. They were going to hurt them because they didn't like the color of their skin." That's what Phillips told CNN...that the boys looked and acted like they were about to hurt the BHI crowd. Which is also a lie. My entire long-form video in the OP spells out everything that transpired between BHI and the kids to that point. We know Phillips is aware of this lie, because he admits that he has heard what BHI was doing to the kids (see Goodman interview) and also knows the students response was to remain huddled over on the stairs and do simple school chants, which he later falsely describes as, "Build the Wall." (see Frejo/companion statements)

Anyway, at this point, Phillips pounds the drum in front of Nick for the next 3 minutes, with his cameraman to his right, and roughly a 5 ft. radius circle of students off to the right (Nick's left/rear). Phillips and his cameraman clearly decided to step up to Nick, stop and perform, while filming it.

Phillips also told Amy Goodman: "I didn’t agree with the Black Israelites and what they were saying." So we know that Phillips knew exactly what was really happening...see my transcription for what BHI was doing; he knows the true origin of all the hate. But what does he tell every interviewer? Something akin to what he told CNN:

"Here's a group of people who were angry." (he's referring to the students)
And while standing in their group, "all of a sudden, I'm the one whose all that anger and all that wanting to have the freedom to just rip me apart, that was scary." Telling how fearful he was of the students because all the hate and anger they were displaying, they might now want to rip him apart. He already told us he heard everything the BHI was saying, so presumably, he also knows what the students have been doing -- huddled over on the steps, doing school cheers.
That the kids were, "ready to do harm to somebody."
"...this young fellow put himself in front of me and wouldn't move." Video shows otherwise...we just covered this.
"they (the kids) were very aggressive and they were very ready to hurt somebody."

Phillips told Star Tribune, "Phillips clarified that it was he who had approached the crowd...I stepped in between to pray."
Phillips told CNN the kids were chanting, "Build the wall." None of the hours worth of video, showing well before, during, and well after the incident, contain any such thing.
Marcus Frejo told Associated Press that the students were, "heckling a couple of black men nearby." Go back to the long-form video and watch along with what I transcribed and you will note that BHI verbally assault those kids for hours, and tell me if the kids were "heckling" them? AP apparently did so as well, and states, "The footage doesn’t show any black person being being heckled."
Frejo told the AP, what the kids were really doing, before Phillips and he approached, "boisterous students began chanting slogans such as “Make America great” and then began doing the haka, a traditional Maori dance." That matches video.
Frejo also said that though, he feared a mob mentality...he was at peace singing...felt something special happen as they repeatedly sang the tune." His fear was personal trepidation and possibility in his subjective mind, but turned out to be unwarranted and that is evident from the start; none of the students were at any time angry or aggressive in any video.
Frejo also said the kids, "went from mocking us and laughing at us to singing with us. That spirit moved through us, that drum, and it slowly started to move through some of those youths."

Based on the video and the truthful comments from Phillips and Frejo (those that match video evidence, not disqualified as evidential lies), we can conclude:

Phillips approached the group, intending to play his drum for them.
Phillips noticed a particular, stationary student (Nick) near the left edge of the opening provided, took a step or two closer, with members of his entourage, and played his drum prayer for him, directly.
Nick, allowed the man to approach him as he continued spectating the scene playing out before him; watching and smiling.
Phillips and his companions appear intent on both playing the drum for this particular student and filming the scene, because they do not continue to proceed in the space provided directly in front of where Phillips companion was filming, where the students had stepped aside to allow passage.
Nick remained on the left edge of that opening.
Plenty of room to the drummer to navigate if he wished; you can even see his buddies (white hat/glasses, or cameraman) right next to his right side, with a clear path ahead if they desired: https://youtu.be/GKZn2e9wDBs?t=1092
Still room, but the drummer likes Nick: https://youtu.be/GKZn2e9wDBs?t=1118
When the students realized the focus had became Phillips and Nick, and the drummer and his crew had apparently no more desire to navigate elsewhere, it looks like they did collapse the circle a bit around Nick and the drummer crew, as others from behind presumably pressed in to watch, shoving the front students closer, which is about here: https://youtu.be/GKZn2e9wDBs?t=1138
Phillips says the students were angry and about to attack someone - hours of video contradict that and show the exact opposite
Phillips says the students were chanting, "Build the Wall." - hours of video indicate absence and dispel that notion
Frejo says the students were chanting, "Make America Great" - this also contradicts Phillips
Frejo says the students eventually sang along with them, making a great moment - video confirms this
Ultimately, Phillips is just a plain liar about what these kids demonstrated during that time.

Yet, you believe Phillips that these were angry, violent kids, blocking his path, about to attack someone, and they need to learn better, reform their evil ways, and apologize.

I don't believe Phillips (because evidence) and Nick, specifically, has nothing to apologize for, because he literally did nothing other than stand and watch as Phillips performed for the students exactly as he stated was his intent.

ETA: If you want a sense of the "fear" these people felt, you can get a sense for it after the students leave for their bus:

https://youtu.be/GKZn2e9wDBs?t=1399

"I got him, man! We're not alone! He won, man! We won, grandpa! We fucking won, grandpa!"

This is not a defense of Trump.
This is not a defense of MAGA and what it might, or might not stand for.
This is not a defense of pro-life/anti-abortion views.
This IS a defense of truth, in this specific incident.

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5 users have voted.
Big Al's picture

@ChezJfrey I'm sure you do realize that's a stereotype even if he was. What is your explanation for the apologies from the principal and religious leaders for these kids who did absolutely nothing wrong from your pov? Just throwing them under the bus for PR sake?

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3 users have voted.

@Big Al No, I was responding to the post that told me to, "walk in their moccasins." So I responded in kind.

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3 users have voted.
CB's picture

@Big Al
after more evidence came to light - the additional video showing what actually happened.

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3 users have voted.
Big Al's picture

@CB It was just another stupid fucking thing. And now there's Venezuela and Tulsi and whatever comes next.

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4 users have voted.
snoopydawg's picture

@Lookout

I think he cleared up what actually happened there. This is more of what I saw that got me too change my original opinion about what happened. The media pushed this on us just to ramp up the division here. But hey, isn't that Vlad's job? Isn't that what we are constantly being told for why he interfered with the election and had the Internet agency to post those puppy ads? NewsGuard is saying that Russia placed Pokémon ads that told people after they finished the game to not vote. The original CNN article about it doesn't have that information in it. So it does look like NewsGuard's job is to rewrite history.

I'll find the article and post it. This is an interesting and dangerous thing that NewsGuard is doing because people will believe it because they want to believe it.

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5 users have voted.

There is now no depth that cannot be reached in the effort to bamboozle Democrats and keep them stupid and needlessly fearful

Shahryar's picture

This video that's linked is basically worthless. It doesn't show what happened because it's a video of something else entirely.

I sincerely feel that it's dishonest to use this particular video as evidence of anything that's not in it!!

From this video we can't tell if something happened....or if nothing happened. Because it's not a video of Phillips and these kids. It IS a video of the BHI. That's all it is.

106 minutes of BHI with an extremely short segment that only shows that Phillips and the Covington students were in the same location at some point.

In short, this video and this essay change nothing. Did the media rush to judgment? Possibly but you can't tell from this. Did the kids mock Phillips? Possibly but you can't tell from this. So why use it?

and since I've seen other video that does shows the kids coming off the steps, surrounding Phillips, doing the stupid tomahawk chop and the stupid fake "Seminole" chant, I can't really look at something that's about something else (BHI) and tell myself what I've seen didn't happen.

Now to go and reply upthread!

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3 users have voted.
CB's picture

@Shahryar
to back up your claim?

I've seen other video that does shows the kids coming off the steps, surrounding Phillips, doing the stupid tomahawk chop and the stupid fake "Seminole" chant,

Why did you not include it here?

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CB's picture

@Shahryar

Ben Shapiro REACTS To MAGA Boys Protest Incident*2019*

Fast forward to 11:50

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shaharazade's picture

the film by Kurosawa called Rashomon. We all see the 'story' differently. Which is kind of indicative of our present society with it's fucked up media and the offical, absurd Ministry of Truth.

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