If you want Bernie for President, STOP saying you'll vote for Clinton.
STOP telling your opponents that Party comes before the President.
STOP being a "good" Colonist on the American Plantation.
Tell your opponents that if they believe in "Party first," they they better evolve from Hillary to Bernie, real quick like. The only pathway to victory for the Democratic Party goes though Bernie Sanders.
If you have the courage of your convictions — it really is that simple to win.
Sign the Petitions. Here's one:
Petitioning Debbie Wasserman Shultz Democratic National Party I support Bernie but I will not support Hillary Clinton in the general election.
A lot of people would be more than happy to see a Bernie Sanders presidency but would be unlikely to support Hillary Clinton as the nominee. If you wont support Hillary in the general election then sign this petition now to let the DNC know they are making a terrible mistake if they nominate her. They would be disenfranchising the future of the Democratic party and setting themselves for great losses come election time. With Bernie Sanders as the nominee we can stand together for whats right and defeat the Republicans in the fall.
If you're an activist, run with it.
Hardball is how you get there, fast.
Yr friend,
Pluto
[EDIT]
Just to make it clear, it doesn't matter who you vote for in November. What matters is what you say now, when asked.
It is a cheap political manipulation when you are asked who you will support after the Primaries. Change the game by turning their reality upside down:
Tell them: "You better drop Hillary and switch your support to Bernie Sanders right now or the Democratic Party will lose in 2016."
Democratic values voters are definitely not showing up for a Third Way fake Democratic candidate in 2016. Her Supreme Court picks wont be worth the powder to blow them to hell.
Tell them: "It's your choice: Switch to Bernie or blow it out your ass."
If you really want Bernie to be your president, you must play hardball with these corrupt, Neocon, Third Way Dems.
Comments
I have been saying that
here at CC99, but did not want to stir the dog poop elsewhere. It is not worth it with the flying flag brigade over there.
I have voted for Bernie via absentee here in Florida and if he does not get the nom, I considered voting Jill Stein. However, I am now more inclined to write him in, if Clinton gets the nom. I cannot support her under any circumstances primarily due to her war mongering.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Okay
I just joined the official Clinton enemies list.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
It is a pretty long list.
It is a pretty long list. Been on it for 8 years now.
War, War Never Changes - Fallout Series
Impact
While I have seen a number of people say they will vote for Jill Stein, I believe that a write-in for Sanders would send a much bigger, more impactful message.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass
Seeing as elections tend to ignore write ins...
I disagree.
http://www.npr.org/2014/11/12/363458858/florida-election-officials-arent...
They'll just toss it in the dustbin and forget about it. Because who gives a shit about the law when they have a system?
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
To be expected in Florida
However, not all states follow their voter suppression laws. Some enterprising reporter (obviously not from MSM) will most likely pick up the story from other states that report it and check on what happened in other states.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass
I live in Colorado.
And Colorado has to take cognizance of every write-in vote, which has resulted in some interesting and entertaining election reporting!
So, YMMV. Take cognizance yourself (all of us) of where you live and what is likely to happen, and act accordingly.
Our Essayist is correct, however. The only road to Dem victory in 2016 goes via Bernie Sanders.
Whether Mr. Melitsos can handle that particular truth or not!
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Signed.
And to this we pledge our sacred honor... ARRRR...
I don't know why but Revolutionary war slogans sound infinitely cooler if you say them like a Pirate. Because, well Honestly, the date of Talk Like a Pirate Day is close to my birthday and I'd rather think of that than the other major day in September.
http://www.talklikeapirate.com/piratehome.html
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Arrrrrrrrr!
I'm with detroitmechworks.
It even works to read in pirate!
'Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years, Doctor, and I’m happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd "
I don't know if I
want to sign the petition.
But I'm a total Bernie supporter. I will tell anyone I cannot vote for Hillary.
'Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years, Doctor, and I’m happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd "
that is your prerogative
And everyone should respect that. There are no loyalty oaths here.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Thank you, gulfgal.
I love this place!
'Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years, Doctor, and I’m happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd "
i'm really not too concerned with saving the Democratic Party
i'm never going to vote for Hillary and didn't vote for Obama in 2012. wrote a piece about it that garnered over 600 comments, most of which implored me to think about what a grave mistake i was making.
i'd prefer if people didn't join parties and kept the parties guessing and on their toes . . . not taking the electorate for granted. and OPEN primaries. now let's see what happens.
“There are moments which are not calculable, and cannot be assessed in words; they live on in the solution of memory… ”
― Lawrence Durrell, "Justine"
They have zero respect for the voters.
Voters need to realize that they have no power if they can't hurt them.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
we don't need to hurt them, just ignore them.
if we don't participate in their game, that's how they lose power. you know, love me hate me just don't be indifferent . . . indifference is the absolute worst thing we can inflict.
but i did sign the petition with the comment: it's the climate, stupid. it's wall street, stupid.
fuck the system.
“There are moments which are not calculable, and cannot be assessed in words; they live on in the solution of memory… ”
― Lawrence Durrell, "Justine"
Hurt is agressive or passive agressive....
I'll take it either way.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
Thanks for this, Pluto. Mr M and I
quit signing petitions that require an email address some time ago (after a security breach on a credit card account, per our Credit Union's advice). But, if anyone knows of a similar petition (not requiring that info), please direct me to it.
Voting for FSC is simply an affirmation of the DLC-like/Third Way/No Labels corporatist neoliberal agenda that we've been suffering under for years, IMHO.
No can do!
Hey, have a good one!
(Music City) Mollie
elinkarlsson@WordPress
"The obstacle is the path."--Zen Proverb
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
Pluto, I agree with the content of the petition,
but wouldn't sign it, because those times, when suckers try to find out, how we vote, before we do so, via polling and signature counts on petitions, is OVER.
I rather want people to be scared to the last minute about how everyone will vote, then giving them any ideas beforehand.
I signed in my real name.
I expect if Sanders doesn't take it I will be audited next spring
There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.. This...is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.--John Adams
Thank You
I've been posting this petition all over. Not at GOS. Tho that's where I found it, on the Kos diary, posted by a first time person who was quickly hidden & banned.
Think it is crucial this be a major part of the national conversation, picked up by any media which has the courage to do it, which means not MSNBC, CBS, ABC, or any of that cabal - so that the PUBLIC is aware : This is not a business as usual election.
If Clinton uses the word "reconciliation" again, think someone should steal her cough drops!!!!
President Sanders: an idea whose time has come
Done..
I also signed the #BernieOrBust pledge. The party elites tell us to kiss off because they think we have "no place else to go". This has been true for the last 35 years. Democrats are finally fed up and willing to to call them on it. If I'm going down, I will do what I can to take them with me.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
lol, i signed at least one petition about not voting
for her, but cannot remember if it was this or BernieorBust. In any case, in 1992 I voted for Bill, but did not do it in 1996. I felt he had no "center" no core set of beliefs. I feel even more strongly this time about Hillary. I haven't got the foggiest what she actually believes in her heart. No idea. So, I'm not voting for her in the GE, should she be the democratic nominee.
I think the Republicans have gone off the rails and the Democrats more resemble 1960s republicans, so I see HRC like a 60s republican.
In any case, after I vote for Bernie in my primary in April, I'm done with the democratic party. They stopped representing my interests or caring what I think a veeeery long time ago. I'm out.
Don't believe everything you think.
Write in Bernie?
I will write in Bernie Sanders should he request it. But if he endorses Hillary Clinton, I will vote for Jill Stein.
If you don't know what you want, you deserve what you get.
if he endorses Hillary Clinton . . .
well. in all this euphoria, i hadn't actually thought he might do that.
no. no. no.
“There are moments which are not calculable, and cannot be assessed in words; they live on in the solution of memory… ”
― Lawrence Durrell, "Justine"
I expect he will
Of course that won't affect my vote in any way. Nor will it affect my opinion of him. I'm the first to admit that the argument of "stop Trump" has it's merits and if that's Bernie's political calculus then yay for him. I just see it differently.
Insofar as write-in vs. Jill Stein, I'll go with Stein because I think it's more likely to be a visible vote... if enough do it then perhaps it will become a tempting honeypot to some party tired of losing.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
I suspect
as part of his ticket to get in (via the Democratic party) Bernie had to sign a pledge to support the winner of the primaries. If Hillary wins, I will be looking at HOW he frames his endorsement. Right now, my plan is to write in Bernie in the general if he does not get the nom. Otherwise, it will be Jill Stein.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Does that matter?
At 74 years old, if he loses the race, he'll either manage to stick it out as VT's senator--and nobody on Capitol Hill will work w/him because he dared to oppose Her Majesty Hillary I the Mendacious--or he'll retire.
I suspect he'll do what he thinks is right in the situation, and that might be trying to unite blue behind Hillary. But it won't work, no matter what he does. All it will do is destroy his credibility with the people he motivated to get involved.
You can't point out the corruption and lies of your opponent for months, and then say: "But vote for this extremely corrupt liar."
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
He had better not.
Unless he wants to strike the death blow to the Democratic party. Maybe that wouldn't be all bad.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Bernie!
Great idea i'm in!
Sorry
the courage of my convictions is to no longer vote for democratic party politicians no matter what their name is.
And yes, Sanders will endorse Clinton, he has said he would. He's specifically said he will not pull a Nadar because the republicans cannot take office. He will not pass up endorsing Clinton for that very reason. I'm surprised so many Sanders' supporters do not know that.
May be Sanders could change his mind about it
... he has all the right to change his mind. If Sanders knows how many of his followers really don't want him to support HRC if he loses the nomination, he might just consider his followers wishes.
Do you really think at the Democratic party convention
Bernie would not throw his support behind Clinton vs. Trump. I seriously doubt it. He could have second thots about it after a better than expected showing, but he will help the democrats against the republicans, he always has based on a 95% voting record with the Dems and many past statements. The majority of his followers will do the same which will factor in more than the 20-30% that won't. If he didn't, he would be a Nadar and like I said, he's specifically said he won't do that.
well, I don't know the Americans' soul and might completely
misjudge how they think and feel. But for some reason I don't believe that the Republicans have a viable candidate. I foresee so much opposition to these guys that it's hard for me to believe that the threat that Sanders would be an enabler for the Republicans to win, if he should not throw his support for a Trump vs. Clinton situation, would stick.
I expect him to be courageous, stand his ground and face being condemned for sticking to his convictions to not support HRC. This whole thing is now a recurring game and someone has to break the "etiquette" and rules. Because if not, nothing will ever change. The system is so rigged that it's not worth anymore to play by the rules. If you need a political revolution, may be the Democratic Convention would be a place to start it for real. I know Sanders said, like all these old gentlemen do, he wouldn't do it and support a Clinton nomination, if he loses. I think that is a mistake. Sanders is old, what does he have to lose to stand his ground and be principled? The movement should encourage him to stand his ground.
He has said that
Hillary is 10000 times better than a Republican any day, he's almost definitely going to endorse her if he loses. He doesn't want to delegitimize his movement either, he clearly thinks the Democratic party is the best vehicle for it. He thinks keeping the GOP out of the WH is more important than anything. I respect his decision, I won't voice my support for Hillary though.
bern baby bern disco inberno
Sanders delegitimizing his movement?
The movement started out without Sanders having an input on it or playing a major role. So, it's not HIS movement. Nor can he delegitimize any movement. Of course Sanders can endorse HRC if she wins the nomination. I don't disrespect him, nor do I respect him for either decision. Personally, I wished he would stand his ground based on his expressed convictions.
Keeping the GOP out of the White House isn't enough. This should be a fight to change the political system where the dual party monopoly ends. There is not enough difference between the GOP and the Democrats. Both parties can't disentangle themselves out of the corporate and MIC claws. Both parties are owned by corporate powers that were not elected by the people. The movement doesn't want the corporate and/or oligarchy and/or the MIC hold the government hostage to their profiteering wishes.
I want Sanders to support the movement, who wants to seize the power to be returned to the people and to change the electoral system. He can do this either as presidential candidate (eventually as President) or if he doesn't get the nomination by standing with the movement and not with the establishment Democratic Party. Somehow, I think, Democrats need to pay for their unwillingness to fight for what the people need, public healthcare for all, tuition free education at universities, control over the MIC to not engage in wars and conflicts that are against international law. That's just my personal opinion.
What worries me is that the MIC...
will already kill people in illegal wars to maintain their profits.
I have no doubts whatsoever that they will kill people illegally, PERIOD, to maintain their profits.
What form that will take with a direct challenge is the part that worries me. I'd like to think that our military wouldn't go along with a coup, but I know there are corporations that have subverted the governments of other countries for profit, with the aid of the US military. They've had a lot of practice, and I worry with our militarized police/security forces what will happen.
Maybe I'm just paranoid. Maybe I just don't trust mercenaries. I'm hoping to GOD my instincts are proven VERY VERY WRONG.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Well said, mimi.
These are the basic starting points for me.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
I'm not saying he started the movement
just that his "revolution" is an attempt to co-opt and organize several manifestations of the same movement into a bigger one. He sees the best path forward to giving that movement power in the Democratic party. What are the convictions you think he isn't standing on? I don't think he's sacrificing convictions by attempting a coup of the Democratic party, nor by voting for their nominee, if necessary, as he has likely done his whole life in every election.
The fact is, if he "goes Nader" he delegitimizes this progressive wave as another "hindrance" to democratic governance, in the eyes of the low-information, mainstream voter, who are really the ones holding all the cards, having been brainwashed by the MSM. I don't think making Democrats "pay" with more years of the GOP will make them any more open to progressive policy, especially after the country has been moved further right, which, I understand, will probably happen under any establishment nominee from either party. The electorate wouldn't see it as, "oh, look what we've done, we could have had a legitimate candidate instead of a broken party!" they'll simply outsource blame, further deride and marginalize progressives as short-sighted, naive, privileged hippies, anarchists, etc. I think that's how Bernie views it, he's trying to mainstream OWS, sooner than later. He'd likely view going third party as a disservice to progressivism in America at this point. Not that I don't see the upsides to breaking from the establishment, I get what you're saying, I think the reality would be much different though.
I understand the difficulty in disentangling the parties from the MIC, the 1%. IMO, the party leaders couldn't care less which party wins, ultimately, like you said, they are too similar.
I haven't really staked out my own solid opinion on the most effective course here, but my only point is that I think Bernie has.
And all that said, I fully believe in and support not pledging your vote to the Democratic party as a personal choice. Even if you think you might end up voting D, its best not to just offer that info willingly, and instead play "hard to get," if not making your vote completely unavailable. Dems have completely lost their ability to leverage what they need from their party.
bern baby bern disco inberno
Most effective course.....
I am willing to follow Bernie to the end. I don't know what that is, but I am willing to hear him out. If it involves supporting Hillary, no. If the candidates are Trump and Hillary, Trump will win. If he finds that as intolerable as everyone else, I am hoping he will fight for the superdelegates to throw the election his way. If we support him strongly enough, we can make a case to pull it off. At the speed hillary is blowing it, Bill and Chelsea won't even vote for her.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
10,000 times better than a GOPper
Of course, accomplishing that isn't all that hard these days....
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
If he said that
then I don't agree with him. If the Clintons get to keep control of the Democratic party for another 4 or 8 years - then there really is no Democratic party.
They've almost destroyed it "as it stands now" as DLC/neoliberal/third way - it would gt worse, tho it's hard to even imagine how that could be possible
I will NOT vote for a Clinton, neither of them, to be back in the White House evah!!!!
If he said that
then I don't agree with him. If the Clintons get to keep control of the Democratic party for another 4 or 8 years - then there really is no Democratic party.
They've almost destroyed it "as it stands now" as DLC/neoliberal/third way - it would gt worse, tho it's hard to even imagine how that could be possible
I will NOT vote for a Clinton, neither of them, to be back in the White House evah!!!!
Think it through
Seems like Noam Chomsky has no scales on his eyes and has publicly stated that he would have no problem voting for Clinton, although he would consider it a vote against whatever devo the GOP sends up.
This my way or the highway approach to the election seems like something I would expect of Ted Cruz (e.g., repeal Obamacare of the government gets shut down). Whether you think the Clinton voters are deluded or not, you're basically encouraging them to vote Trump or whatever or sit out the election. It will be a very hollow victory for us if Bernie gets the nomination and then goes down in the general.
Are you accusing me of being like Ted Cruz?
What is this, Daily Kos Too? Is that what it is, I have to declare I'm voting for Bernie or I'll get insulted?
What the fuck.
I agree... I disagree with Al on many things...
but here he has the right to say it without people jumping down his neck.
Tonight's been kinda stressful on the blogging front, admittedly, but making demands isn't cool.
I apologize Al, on behalf of only myself, since I'm the only one I can speak for. I look forward to many more honest and respectful disagreements.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Everybody's talking about how they don't want the blog
to be an echo chamber, to not be a blog for the Democratic party or for a political party in general, to be issues oriented. I write about antiwar stuff and it barely gets a blip, while it's Bernie all the time. I challenge people, try to stir debate instead of echoing what everybody else is saying about Sanders and the election. And now I'm getting insulted for saying I won't vote for Bernie and that I don't believe in his fucking revolution. Ya, open minds all right. Shit.
Hey, if they think I'm being a dick, which is supposed to be the bar around here, then kick me off.
And no need to apologize, you've debated quite well.
I'm going to attribute this to growing pains.
You have to remember a lot of us are still in Sanders DEFENSE mode after enduring constant attacks at TOP.
I feel that you're very passionate about what you believe in, and can fully respect that. I once again, can't speak for anybody else, but I think there's a lot of passion around here for Bernie, and admittedly some rather thin skins from what we've experienced.
I'm frankly quite appreciative of your criticisms of my pro-military/anti-war points, because it helps me refine and polish my own philosophy.
So, thanks for what you have to say, and I appreciate you saying something about what you feel was an unfair treatment. IMHO the only way we're going to be able to set community standards is through a process of boundaries being tested.
So, I'm willing to stick with you, if you're willing to stick with us, essentially. You're correct in that the last thing we need is an echo chamber, but we're still adjusting to a BUNCH of new people and getting our feet.
Hope my long rambling reply at least sounds logical.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
no worries Big Al
I get what you say quite well. I have a similar issue with much of the rhetoric out there. Though have a different take on it somewhat. There has been a mountain of attacks of Trump because of his words and the conclusion that he is a war mongering, xenophobic, racist this or that however almost all the GOP candidates (when there were 12 of em) were 'debating' how much destruction they'll do to the ME EXCEPT Trump.... they were just forcing him to engage in the war mongering rhetoric and that is not what he is about. He simply blew Jeb bush right off the stage in one of their debates regarding his brother 'keeping us safe' and 9/11 happening on his 'watch' (hate that word in the political arena) and the Iraq fiasco and Jebs' campaign folded shortly thereafter. No Democrat has even come close to calling things like that... fucking weak as hell they are (Sanders did not call it out but voted against it) ... why can't so-called democrats see this?. I think Clinton is far more dangerous than trump is even though she is all smiley, laughing and shit... Bernie didn't call it out because HE CAN'T ... he is fighting the Clinton machine right now.
So many people probably even here think I am a racist something or other, or republican masquerading as democrat, which I am not any more than any one of us. I see a million dead bodies and countless maimed people including thousands upon thousands of US military personnel stacked up to the clouds from 15 years of fucking war mongering fuck wads "leading' this country ... 15 fucking years of this shit.... against a tactic called terrorism.... who is really the fascist war mongering motherfuckers running, and have ruined, this country? ... it is the establishment democratic and republican parties by their ACTIONS (not words) with Bush then Obama leading the way for death and destruction in perfect conformance to the PNAC doctrine written in the 90's by a bunch of pencil necked fucking war criminal arm chair quarterback neoconservatives whom Obama has followed the dictates (Obama did NOT end the Iraq war... bush had an agreement in place to remove troops in 2011) and Hillary will follow the plan as well. Trump has not demonstrated anything but poor judgement in the use of words to counter his republican ESTABLISHMENT party members who would like to bomb Iran as soon as possible. They need those oil pipelines across Syria so MUCH .. for europe... how fucked is that? The republican CONSTITUENTS are ALSO sick of being fucked over by their party and the Clinton Machine is doing everything in their power to de-rail Sanders and those who are sick of ESTABLISHMENT political party agendas (more war and free trade agreements). There is common ground between Trump supporters and Sanders supporters though most fail to see what it really is which is establishment political parties have both ruined the US reputation and its domestic economic fabric through crap trade agreements and incessant war mongering ruining prospects for a better future for everyone within the country.
This why this election cycle is such a clusterfuck... the establishment parties do NOT want Trump OR Sanders and they are doing everything they can do destroy them... its working on the Sanders' campaign but not so much with the Trump campaign... and that is the real tragedy... we're far better off if Sanders and Trump are the nominees... they are not the evil socialists or war mongers everyone else has painted them as. Words are nothing compared to actions and the dead bodies and maimings are on the current and past "leadership" of these shitty political parties for the last 15 YEARS that are essentially systemically corrupt.
-Rant off
ML - nice to actually see this in print
I agree with you. Trump talks about working with Putin, stopping these insane imperialist wars for regime change and putting the money back into the infrastructure. I'll say it loudly and clearly, Trump is head and shoulders above all of the other candidates on this particular issue. I'd like to see Trump v Sanders, as Trump could pull Sanders in this direction, but Sanders would win all all of the other issues. I also have to say that when Trump explodes with a extreme solution to a problem he is talking about a metaphor. The bottom line is that the people are fed up with business as usual from both parties and he is saying, in effect: I'll do something about this problem and all of the rest of the candidates are helpless incompetents. For example, he is not really going to get Mexico to build a physical wall at the US border, but what is needed is a virtual wall, a joint border patrol infrastructure that is serious about stopping illegal trafficking and immigration. If he then couples this with a path to make responsible illegals, legal, he then has a huge winning issue. Trump is well capable of coming to this conclusion. I believe that what we don't know about the General Election is vastly greater than what we do know.
Capitalism has always been the rule of the people by the oligarchs. You only have two choices, eliminate them or restrict their power.
IF it helps you any
I'm with you on the antiwar thought. Frankly, "protecting American interests" is code for "enhancing corporate profits". I think the next war we fight ought to be when someone is actually threatening us. I also think the single most effective way to fight the pretend war on terror is to ... you know... stop blowing up Muslims. Who knows? If we stop killing them in job lots perhaps they'd be less motivated to kill us.
If I had my way we'd close down bases all around the globe, dial down our military spending by at least 60%, and quit it with the empire building crap. This is one of the areas I most strongly disagree with Sanders and my only real ray of sunshine there is that at least he does respond to activism so his opinions can be changed.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
Nobody's interested in kicking you off
I actually have no problem with you, or anybody, that doesn't believe in his revolution.
I have some problem with people pressuring me to vote HRC in the general election, but that doesn't warrant expulsion from the site.
This isn't an echo chamber.
However:
Right now is a difficult time to get eyeballs for things other than this primary, because the pressure is very intense; we're at a crossroads. If Bernie gets smashed next week, Clinton can re-establish her inevitability narrative, and it will probably be over; if he can pull off another couple upsets, then her inevitability gets another rock in its windshield. Most the people here have been suppressed by the Clintons and their machine most of their lives, so it matters to them.
I understand that for someone who thinks the whole thing is a meaningless Punch-and-Judy show, this must be frustrating. But one way or another, it'll end, and then we will need people who want to build the enduring revolution: not a revolution of candidates and campaigns, but a revolution of economics and ethics. I would very much like to have you around for that, because there are fewer people interested in that stuff than in campaigns.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
with all due respect, al has thought it through...
al, whom i assure you is a reasonable person, has looked at this issue and it is his opinion that voting for clinton (or any democrat for that matter) is not a good idea. he has a fully-developed rationale for this and would prefer that no one votes for candidates like clinton, the rethugs or bernie for that matter who do not fully commit to an anti-imperialist, antiwar, socialist political and economic agenda.
while i don't fully agree with al's views, they are as fully thought-out as anybody's you will come across.
i would say that voting for the lesser of two evils as your comment suggests that you think is the wise course of action will continue to keep us locked into the situation where we have a poor choice of candidates.
Appreciate the words joe.
I overreacted, my bad. Won't happen again.
You say,
I agree.
Over and out . . .
(Music City) Mollie
elinkarlsson@WordPress
"The obstacle is the path."--Zen Proverb
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
oh geez, give Al a break,
the way you use Chomsky is misleading and a cheap shot. And to hint that Al is a Ted Cruz-like human being is ... well, I would consider it a pretty personal "statement" (to express it politely). I guess anyone can have his own ideas what kind of vote is smart, correct, deluded or wrong. No need to put someone down for it.
I'm with Al.
People here have their own political opinions and strategies. We don't judge them. If you had framed your comment as your opinion of what you think is right for you, I'm sure people here would support it. But projecting your views and judging the opinions of others is going to get you push back.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
"My way or the high way"???
heh... nevermind... comment deleted because I'd clearly lost track of the thread.
But I'm not a real fan of saying anyone must make any loyalty oaths... to Bernie or anyone else. Nor do I believe it's OK to suggest that other people "haven't through it through" and/or are simply being selfish because they don't plan to vote how you do.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
I keep challenging on this
WHAT is your alternative?
Bernie will be bound by a loyalty oath which what all the parties require. The system is to blame. Blame the system which forces politician into an either this or either that.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Loyalty oath? Would be nice if the Democrats actually would be
loyal to their campaign promises and propaganda. If someone is disloyal then it's the Democratic Party establishment. They don't fight for the goals and values people want, at least those people, who are not so manipulated and brainwashed that they would vote against their own interests. The Democrats talk the left talk and govern within the right wing positions.
Has a loyalty oath a legal meaning? If Sanders would break that loyalty oath, could he get sued, been penalized, go into prison? Or is it just that the Democratic Party would treat him like a traitor and outcast for good?
They'd trump up something.
It's always amazing how politicians who challenge the stasis quo always seem to mysteriously develop a habit in horrible crimes. If that fails, there's always tons of lone wolves out there who nobody can predict what they'll do.
Am I accusing major political parties of threatening who they consider traitors? Hell no. I'm openly suggesting they actively frame and assassinate them.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
What is my alternative for what?
Voting for Sanders? Why do I need an alternative, I'm not voting for any politician that is running for the Democratic party, that's my choice. As far as Sanders endorsing Clinton, it's his choice too, I'm just saying he is going to do it.
I thought this blog didn't require a loyalty oath for Bernie.
Nobody is asking for a loyalty oath.
There are many options some conventional and some not. I think it was a simple question, not a challenge.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
Will he?
Why should he keep his word to the parties? They don't keep their word to the people.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
That just means he won't run third-party
But that doesn't necessarily mean he'll throw his support to her. If he does, all he will do is destroy his own credibility--and what little remains of the Democratic party's.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Already signed
Although I think a more in-depth discussion of voting strategy is in order. Perhaps I need to put together a diary.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
You should put a story together.
The big story in this election, in my view, is going to be the emergence of the anti-vote coalition.
It is a personal Human Rights disgrace to stand in line to vote for a lesser evil. It is a moral disgrace to waste time voting for a symbol. Little wonder both parties contribute to the Greens. It avoids displaying to the world the fact that the US voting numbers are too low to be credible. And, the world needs to know that if they are going to rescue the American people.
The big story in the US is why the people refuse to vote.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Well thank you for saying that Pluto
I assume that thinking people know the truth of this.
Perhaps they need someone to say the words.
My sole interest is involving the rest of the world in saving the American Colonists (by shutting down the US Dollar in foreign trade). That will kill the Neocons dead, and cripple ongoing US terrorism throughout the world.
Hello World: Stop funding US terrorism.
Someone has to save the American people, because it is very clear the American People cannot save themselves.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
yep
without the ability to print money out of thin air like they have and incessant and monstrous abuse of the privilege of possessing the world's reserve currency status.. none of these global hegemony atrocities would have been possible. The great tragic irony is how much the domestic economy has suffered because of their sheer stupidity, corruption and greed and an agenda that has no bearing on true benefit to the nation.
Blame
I did sign this petition which just puts out there what I had already decided to do (or not do). The only hesitation for me is if Hillary wins the nomination, loses in the ge and then those of us who have made it clear that we are for only Bernie will forever be blamed. I know that they are already planning to blame us, not themselves for not backing the only worthwhile candidate. However, I'd rather not make it this easy.
Kathy Udy
Fuck em, they'll do it anyway.
Nader.
Never mind the thousands of Democrats who switched sides to vote for Bush.
Hillary and her defenders are full of shit and they proved that without a doubt today.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Forget Nader...how about 2010?!
They're still repeating that bullshit lie/zombie meme that the Dems lost 2010 because liberals were sulky and stayed home from the primaries. Even though it got debunked--mathematically!--in 2011, nearly five years ago!
I hate to ask anyone to go to GOS, but get a load of this:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/8/5/1003805/-
Ask yourself why I still have that link in my favorites after five years. Because I bloody *need* to pull it up, still, every time some DLC douchebag trots that stupid lie out again!
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Do you really care about idiots blaming you for random things?
I look at it this way. I accept the blame for the candidate I supported and voted for. If Trump wins then it's the people who voted for him who take whatever credit and blame accrues. If Hillary wins, same thing. If Hillary wins the nomination and then loses the GE my response will be that is the problem of the candidate and party that nominated her.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
Au contraire,
Clinton, her supporters and the leadership of the Dem party will be to blame. They've had their chance and have decided to back a loser. You back a loser, you lose, it's that simple.
there is a difference
between voting for Clinton and not voting at all. I have chosen NOT to vote for Clinton under any circumstances, but I do not choose to not vote at all.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Tiny clarification
I, for one, have NEVER said that I would vote for HRC under any circumstances!
The pure Dynasty aspect turned me off initially and then - well, like others have said - the more you learn about HRC the more you realize that she's really a Republican at heart. Granted, a more old-school "moderate" Republican, but NOT a true Liberal and certainly not a true Socialist!
Nope - screw that! I refuse to hold my nose and suppress my integrity!! It's Bernie or watching the catastrophe on TV!
PS - Hey! DK and you D-worshippers: don't blame us when Kasich or Rubio waltz into the WH! Blame your own pukey-ass accommodationist selves for driving away the people! People, not Party!
It is not WHAT you think, but HOW you think that matters.
aka HonorFredHampton on TOP
GOP waltzes into the Oval Office
Trump. The GOP nominee will be Donald Trump. No matter what the party elders do.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
I'm totally tracking with you on that!!!
I keep getting emails, and FB postings saying we have to vote for the Dem no matter who wins the primary!! I'm thinkin... uh, no.... we don't. We have to vote for Bernie so he wins the primary. An HRC Presidency will be a foray into constant wars abroad, constant pillaging by Wall Street, and constant fracking and destruction of our drinking water and environment, just to name a few items. Why the hell would I or any liberal vote for her??? To be fair, the idea of Trump, Cruz or any of those whack jobs being President is fairly intimidating. So I can see why some would vote for her if she wins the primary, but to pledge that in advance is to let the assholes at the DNC, Turd Way, DLCC know that they got you by the short and curlies....which is exactly where they want you because then they can continue to fuck you over. So.... I'm unwilling to take up the slack and vote for a moderate republican, HRC, because the good people of the U.S. couldn't be bothered to vote for someone who actually gives
a shit about them and their futures!!! Just. Not. Gonna. Do. It. I'm tired of voting for the lesser of two evils, or fear of SCOTUS, or, or.... I'm voting for Bernie.
What's really horrendous
Is that so many are making that demand without even bothering to make a policy comparison between the two candidates. It's all based on assumptions: Donald talks crazy and does crazy shit, so he obviously must be automatically worse on policy than HRC who looks nice and normal and speaks calmly, and....um.
No, thanks, I'm gonna go read the fine print, if it's all the same to you.
It may come out that Hillary is better than Donald, but I'd like to check what each one says, and, to the extent I can ascertain it, how likely each is to *do* what s/he says.
I'm working on an article about that. Basically a point-by-point comparison.
We used to believe that was a requirement before we pledged ourselves to any candidate.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Hey, CSTS! Look forward to your post. That's
exactly the way that I feel (when you said)
(Music City) Mollie
elinkarlsson@WordPress
"The standard of living of the average American has to decline," he said. I don't think you can escape that."--Paul A Volcker, during Congressional testimony, October 1978
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
if one thinks
believes I have to vote for HRC in the GE to be a 'true' democrat .... they are going to be in for a rude surprise. I don't vote for obvious DINO's. They love to paint Bernie as an outsider and not a 'true' democrat... destroy Bernie ... destroy the party as it will not have a true identity any longer
The minute you say. I will vote for her in the GE
You have marginalized your opinions, your vote and the entire movement. Whether you would vote for her I. The GE or not SAY NOTHING... If you are attacked as helping to elect trump say Well then you should,d vote for Bernie, no?
Orwell was an optimist
At the convention, I see two forces on our side.
Bernie and whatever he does, and then there is us. There may be a Bernie supporters that will say, sure Bernie, and vote for Hillary. Then there's us. I think we need to become a force to be reckoned with that is behind Bernie, but not Bernie's. The left needs to exercise some muscle. That's us.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
That *is* us.
And there needs to be a movement come out of this that is not entirely electoral, but which endures between campaigns.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
As I've expressed before
I'm really on the fence, leaning towards not voting for her... It's like she's trying really hard to lose my vote, and may succeed in the end. Good fuck, we're not even in the GE and she's lost-losing the left.... never seen a primary like this one, on both sides.
Trump is truly a grotesqueness that I can not bear.... lesser evils have turned into real evils, and you could argue that for again, both sides. But those who chose not to vote for her, not only have that right, but also have the right to express the reasons. For me that is non-negotiable. Great reads all the way down, freedom is a wonderful thing, again, from all sides!
Progressive to the bone.
That's how I feel too
Its not that I'm withholding my vote to "punish" the conservadems for not giving me my way, nor am I pouting. I went into this thinking Bernie would lose but would at least force some important conversations into the national spotlight, and of course when HRC won I would vote for her in the general. They had to work pretty damn hard to lose my GE vote, as if they were trying to lose me on purpose. I'm used to abuse from both parties, but this time there was no distinction between the two. I finally realized that they consider the votes of progressives like me to be so guaranteed that they can do what they like, even take a dump directly in my mouth, and I'll gladly vote for them come the general. So they can not only not bother courting my vote, they can openly show their contempt for me, because they think there's no way they can lose my vote. They're wrong.
I don't think I've ever seen the party express so much open contempt and even outright hatred for my wing of the party before. Bernie's campaign has forced them to show their true face. I think they're going to find out they went too far this time.
enddrugtestingblogspot.com
I know
I am fully aware that Bernie won't run third party and will support Clinton if she wins. Its not an issue to me. I'd rather he not give them an excuse for their abject failure as a party by blaming him for pulling a Nader.Though this could be worse for them, in that if he ran third party he and the Dems would have been creamwped and the Dems could have rested on their oars and claimed it was all his fault and they were just perfect and would gave won if not for that darn old man. By running as a Dem and allowing them to overplay their hand trying to keep him from getting any traction at all, he has exposed the true face of the Democratic party and every apparatus they has to prevent any meaningful change from happening outside of negotiating to get the hoi polloi an extra crumb. He has shown us how deep is the contempt of the party establishment for the porogressive wing, and how futile it really is to try to fix it from the inside. Hillary supporters are the realists? I dont think so. They're the ones living in the fairy tale that any corrupt system can be fixed from the inside if only you believe with all your might and clap your hands as hated as you can and NEVER ask for more than half of what you think the master will allow you.
I've been told that since Bernie will support Hillary if she gets the nom, I am duty bound to follow suit. I say that Bernie can do as he likes, but I don't have to agree or do likewise. Im not in a cult, no matter how much the HRC folk want to believe i am. I also don't think that Bernie is good for nothing just because he won't help burn the party down if he doesn't win. I'm not not voting for Hillary in the general to burn the party down myself. I just dont care anymore if Bernie isn't the nominee, and I can't bring myself to vote for or shill for another center-right Republican posturing as a Democrat all over again. I can't fight for a party that won't even try to fight for me. Not again. If that means the party burns down, then the party burns down. Maybe its something that needs to happen.
enddrugtestingblogspot.com
If nothing else, this is the takeaway of Bernie's campaign.
The only party that could ever bring out all the voters in America is the Party of No Confidence. And they would win in a landslide.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Hear, hear, Demonhype! BTW, the third icon
from the left on the tool bar above will allow you to hyperlink to the blog you referenced, FYI. (Unless you'd prefer not to do so.)
At this point, if Bernie doesn't take the Dem Party nomination, I'll just be glad when the Kabuki ends.
Serious attention needs to be paid to several issues, like the 12 appropriation bills that Ryan has sworn he'll push through 'in regular order'--likely resulting in significant 'entitlement cuts.'
Welcome to C99P!
(Music City) Mollie
elinkarlsson@WordPress
"The standard of living of the average American has to decline," he said. I don't think you can escape that."--Paul A Volcker, during Congressional testimony, October 1978
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.