On Constitutions which use the word "indivisible": An observation.

Submitted by thanatokephaloides on Tue, 10/03/2017 - 2:20pm

This will be a really short Essay, but I think it's a question which needs to be answered.

Has anyone else around here noticed that every time the clause "The State is Indivisible" or equivalent appears in any country's Constitution, that country has a chunk of its land and people who emphatically do NOT want to be part of it?

The Turkish, Iraqi, Iranian, and Syrian Constitutions all have this clause in them, and thereby can use the so-called "rule of law" to quash the Kurdish people's right to sovereignty.

The Spanish Constitution also uses that clause. Fuck you, Catalonia: you're Spanish whether you want to be or not. And any attempt to remedy that is "an attack on democracy and the rule of law", to paraphrase His Majesty Felipe VI's speech this afternoon.

If I recall correctly, France also has that clause in its Constitution. Between it and Spain, this means that the Basques explicitly lack the right to be, well, indivisible, as the Franco-Spanish border passes through their territory.

So does the right of self-determination of peoples matter at all, or do the States as they existed in 1945 have an all-encompassing right to rule anyone in the territories assigned them at that time?

Indeed, that is the question.....

Tags:

Catalonia

kurdistan

Occitania

secession

Vote

Comments

Submitted by thanatokephaloides on Tue, 10/03/2017 - 2:29pm

The US Constitution

..... does not use that clause. The closest it comes is the "Pledge of Allegiance" which has no force of law.

And the South never had the same sort of vehemence about their separatism that the Kurds or the Catalans do. Had slavery remained legal and expansible into the Territories, the Southern States and their people would have remained happy campers, with an occasional grind about tariffs here and there. And even after the bloodiest war in our history, modern Southerners are still Americans and happy to be so, with rare exceptions.

Catalans, Kurds, and Basques do not want to be part of their current "nations"' sovereignties under any circumstances at all. It's an important difference. And the Occitans lay somewhere in between.

—

"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Submitted by Linda Wood on Tue, 10/03/2017 - 3:23pm

And then there's

the Crimean Referendum, which is so controversial. And Scotland. It's definitely a topic we should be thinking about as you are, beyond reacting to each case.

Submitted by detroitmechworks on Tue, 10/03/2017 - 3:49pm

Governments like to pretend they will last forever.

Governments don't last.
Peoples do.

So, as a Cascadian, I now have to think about whether we deserve a homeland, or will we always be subsumed under the rigid, autocratic label of America. America stands for violent oppression of anything that gets in the way of making a buck, and I don't want my people's legacy to be tied to that.

Elimination of identities is the Imperial game. When the immediate response to any pushback against that elimination is violence, (OWS, DAPL, Catalonia, Kurds) and the claims that said identity isn't "Real", they've tipped their hand.

Regional differences DO goddamn exist. Demanding obeisance to symbols and complete ignoring of all dissension doesn't just suggest secession, it fucking demands it.

—

I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

Submitted by edg on Tue, 10/03/2017 - 4:05pm

Then there's Brexit.

Britain has to pay to escape the clutches of the European Union. It's too bad Catalonia and Kurdistan can't buy their way out. It looks like in both cases they'll need to fight their way out.

Submitted by ggersh on Tue, 10/03/2017 - 4:41pm

This appears to be the most common thinking

@edg on this matter, but I can't get around thinking
that the UK might outlast the EU on this.

Britain has to pay to escape the clutches of the European Union.

—

I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish

"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"

Heard from Margaret Kimberley

Submitted by native on Tue, 10/03/2017 - 6:52pm

There are varying degrees of sovereignty,

@edg
but to exist as a fully independent State, a People must be willing and able to defend itself militarily. Not many are. As Bob Dylan once opined,

This world ain't ruled by democracy
You better get that through your head.
This world is ruled by violence
But I guess that's better left unsaid.

—

native

Submitted by thanatokephaloides on Tue, 10/03/2017 - 7:15pm

the lesson of October 1, 2017

@native

There are varying degrees of sovereignty, but to exist as a fully independent State, a People must be willing and able to defend itself militarily. Not many are. As Bob Dylan once opined,

This world ain't ruled by democracy
You better get that through your head.
This world is ruled by violence
But I guess that's better left unsaid.

And the Catalans just learned that bitter lesson once and for all.

—

"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Submitted by Linda Wood on Wed, 10/04/2017 - 12:13pm

The thing is,

@native

some geographical areas may be more likely to be able to manufacture arms than others, or to buy them, and thereby arm themselves.

I think the Southern states seized the federal forts in the South immediately after Lincoln was elected because they knew those forts and garrisons were what kept the slave labor force in check and that if the federal government took a position against slavery and for free labor, as Lincoln had outspokenly taken, that protective resource might go away.

The North had the means to produce weaponry. Farming, even with slave labor, couldn't really support the cost of enough military power to control 3 million slave laborers.

Submitted by Alligator Ed on Tue, 10/03/2017 - 5:41pm

There are two simultaneous and opposing forces at play

The one force currently predominant is neoliberalism which seeks economic merging of all nations and obliteration of national identities.

Concurrently there are large areas of the world where ancient societies are continuing to revert to a time with their own unique national or regional identity. This battle between Catalonia and Spain dates back to the 15th Century. I have no idea how long the Kurds became an established culture but they are fighting like hell to regain their previous uniqueness, having their own defined region. Look north and see the currently quiet French Canada and English Canada situation. Separationists may yet arise again. And Ireland with its artificial Northern part (which however is primarily protestant) and its main part (primarily Catholic).

There are more examples almost everywhere where different cultures have melded, by force or by circumstance. Some smoldering, some ablaze.

The regionalization or reappearance of cultural nation-states is antithetical to neoliberalism. Where nationalism succeeds, globalism (neoliberalism) fails.

Submitted by thanatokephaloides on Tue, 10/03/2017 - 6:56pm

nationalism

@Alligator Ed

Concurrently there are large areas of the world where ancient societies are continuing to revert to a time with their own unique national or regional identity. This battle between Catalonia and Spain dates back to the 15th Century.

The one force currently predominant is neoliberalism which seeks economic merging of all nations and obliteration of national identities.

The battle between Occitania and France is even older: it traces back to the 12th Century. And it's the same thing: ancient proto-neoliberalism in the form of French hegemony and French actions to wipe the Occitan culture out.

And again, it's a mistake. Had France and Spain started off encouraging these cultures and embraced them as part of their nations, these two issues wouldn't exist. Instead, they both took the course of attempted cultural genocide; and now neither culture feels it is part of the "nation" to which it "belongs". Since WWII, France has done much better with the Occitans than Spain has done with Catalonia. Hence, the secessionist urges aren't as great or powerful -- but rest assured, they're still there.

—

"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Submitted by Bollox Ref on Tue, 10/03/2017 - 8:50pm

Should not the Kingdom of Aragon be restored

@thanatokephaloides

That included the County of Barcelona as part of its Crown Lands?

—

Gëzuar!!
from a reasonably stable genius.

Submitted by Bollox Ref on Tue, 10/03/2017 - 5:54pm

Having been born in deepest Middlesex,

I demand freedom for the Middle Saxons! Freedom from the overreaching West Saxons, East Saxons and South Saxons! As for the Jutes and Angles, don't get me started.

Sorry, but I'm not big on 'nationalisms', whether big or small. There's always some poor 'other' involved.

(Edited)

—

Gëzuar!!
from a reasonably stable genius.

Submitted by thanatokephaloides on Tue, 10/03/2017 - 7:03pm

Restore the Realm of Logres!

@Bollox Ref

Having been born in deepest Middlesex,

I demand freedom for the Middle Saxons! Freedom from the overreaching West Saxons, East Saxons and South Saxons! As for the Jutes and Angles, don't get me started.

Restore the Realm of Logres! Sasenach go home to Saxony! /s

(I'm not too sure I could master the Gwynedd tongue at this point! Better to stick with what the Angles and Saxons left us!)

Sorry, but I'm not big on 'nationalisms', whether big or small. There's always some poor 'other' involved.

So how do you suggest human societies organize themselves, Bollox?

—

"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Submitted by Bollox Ref on Tue, 10/03/2017 - 8:01pm

I like flags and national anthems as much as anyone else

@thanatokephaloides
But those don't provide jobs, improve health care, get roads, bridges, railway lines, etc., etc., built.

Divisions based on 'cultural/lingual/flag/anthem/difference' aren't the answer.

Reminds me of Dem identity politics.

(Edited)

—

Gëzuar!!
from a reasonably stable genius.

Submitted by thanatokephaloides on Tue, 10/03/2017 - 8:43pm

how are we supposed to organize ourselves?

@Bollox Ref

Divisions based on 'cultural/lingual/flag/anthem/difference' aren't the answer.

Reminds me of Dem identity politics.

OK, so we now know how you don't want human societies organized. And, truth be told, there's a strong case for your objections,

But that begs my question: how do you think we ought to be doing it?

—

"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Submitted by Bisbonian on Tue, 10/03/2017 - 8:55pm

@thanatokephaloides By watershed.

@thanatokephaloides By watershed.

—

"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

Submitted by thanatokephaloides on Tue, 10/03/2017 - 11:45pm

Crimea River (s)

@Bisbonian

By watershed.

Use your idea to solve the Crimea dispute. (There is no river in the Crimea.) /s

EDIT: Strike that! There are several rivers in the Crimea! Per Wikipedia:

Hydrography

There are 257 rivers and major streams on the Crimean peninsula which are primarily fed by rainwater, with snowmelt playing a very minor role. This means there is significant annual fluctuation in water flow with many streams drying up completely during the summer.[58] The largest rivers are the Salhir (Salğır, Салгир), the Kacha (Кача), the Alma (Альма), and the Belbek (Бельбек). Also important are the Kokozka (Kökköz or Коккозка), the Indole (Indol or Индо́л), the Chorna (Çorğun, Chernaya or Чёрная), the Derekoika (Dereköy or Дерекойка),[59] the Karasu-Bashi (Biyuk-Karasu or Биюк-Карасу) (tributary of Salhir river), the Burulcha (Бурульча) (tributary of Salhir river), the Uchan-su, and the Ulu-Uzen'. The longest river of Crimea is the Salhir at 204 km. The Belbek has the greatest average discharge at 2.16 cubic metres per second (76 cu ft/s).[60] The Alma and the Kacha are the second and third longest rivers.[61]

Oops!

Looks like the old saying "Crimea River" does have a basis in fact!

—

"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Submitted by Bisbonian on Wed, 10/04/2017 - 11:09am

Yes, but that only applies to how it would be divided

@thanatokephaloides , if its people wanted to be divided. By watershed, it is independent from both the Ukraine, and Russia. As an independent people, they would be free to choose who they would like to be allied with. And they have.

—

"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

Submitted by lotlizard on Wed, 10/04/2017 - 1:32pm

Indeed. The Hawaiians had the ahupuaʻa system.

@Bisbonian
http://www.hawaiihistory.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=ig.page&CategoryID=299

Shaped by island geography, each ahupuaʻa was a wedge-shaped area of land running from the uplands to the sea, following the natural boundaries of the watershed. Each ahupuaʻa contained the resources the human community needed, from fish and salt, to fertile land for farming taro or sweet potato, to koa and other trees growing in upslope areas. Villagers from the coast traded fish for other foods or for wood to build canoes and houses. Specialized knowledge and resources peculiar to a small area were also shared among ahupuaʻa.

Submitted by Ellen North on Wed, 10/04/2017 - 4:09pm

@Bollox Ref

@Bollox Ref

Except that in various cases specified above, this seems to be based on policy differences, where local government is required to be (potentiality) answerable to the people within an area overwhelmingly demanding this. And where the current and unresponsive distant government is abusing/using those people.

Such cases are not based upon symbols such as flags or anthems; they are based on a demand for responsive local democracy, to which I personally believe all demanding this are entitled.

—

Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

Submitted by pro left on Wed, 10/04/2017 - 1:51am

I wonder

@Bollox Ref if the Bretons felt the same way as you ?

Submitted by riverlover on Tue, 10/03/2017 - 6:30pm

I have mixed feelings about breakup, breakdown and breakout

My thought is to enjoy the variety. Appreciate the slight cultural variations. I have yet to visit Asia or South America. Appreciate whether you view in sun, rain, or snow. And people reception.

Those color everything else.

—

Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

Submitted by thanatokephaloides on Tue, 10/03/2017 - 7:08pm

cultural diversity

@riverlover

I have mixed feelings about breakup, breakdown and breakout
My thought is to enjoy the variety. Appreciate the slight cultural variations.

As I pointed out up-thread, had France and Spain followed your advice, we would probably not even be having this conversation.

But language is not a slight cultural variation. Once the language changes, so does the nationality, as a general rule. (The Swiss have beaten this, but as far as I know they're the only traditional nation which has.)

—

"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Submitted by riverlover on Tue, 10/03/2017 - 8:29pm

Bbut the Swiss are gun-toting

@thanatokephaloides it's all a swirl of confusion for me.

—

Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

Submitted by earthling1 on Tue, 10/03/2017 - 10:16pm

Damn, and I just bought

an updated globe of the world.

—

Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.

Submitted by lotlizard on Wed, 10/04/2017 - 1:40pm

“Responsibility to protect” advocates were so focused on Darfur

It was all you heard about from some folks for a couple of years, “Oh, the West / the international community has got to do something about Darfur…”

Then they succeeded in getting South Sudan split off, and there was this celebratory thing for a few months, “South Sudan, our earth’s newest country…” Of course, then everything descended into the usual chaos and barbarism that come in the wake of Western intervention these days.