To Those Who Said The Dems Could Not Be Reformed
I've been waiting to see how much progress the various groups attempting to reform the Dems - Our Revolution, Justice Dems, Brand New Congress - would make before finally throwing the towel in. For the simple reason that if the Dems could be taken over by the voters then our path to overall victory would be much easier. If.
My barometer on this has been the Our Revolution attempts at taking over several state parties. Earlier this year they took 650 out of 1140 delegates in the CA Dem party. At the end of May there was a vote to elect the state chair and a corporate medical insurance lobbyist was elected because those 1140 delegates are only a third of the total vote.
If Our Revolution had been permitted to elect their chosen candidate we could then have had the conversation of whether or not they and/or Sanders are sheep dog sellouts 
But we are not even getting there. For me this is the clear final straw that eliminates any doubt, ambiguity. The Dems are neither capable of nor desire reform. This last vote in California is that final nail. They have set up their corporate structure to prevent progressives making an impact. There is no refutation.
As the Nick Brana interview above points out we have the demographics on our side and talking to Millennials in the Bay Area not a one of them is buying this RussiaGate nonsense. It is clear to them that it's just an ego massage for the Clinton supporters. Oh and they hate Kamela Harris too for the right wing police apologist she is 
Labor Day is coming. I've been thinking about it for a month or two and I keep thinking someone is going to use the symbolism to launch a new party.
If not them, then us.
Comments
Nice essay. Your pessimism is warranted
Symbolism without substance is Hillary Klinton. Symbolism won't buy you a corned beef sandwich.
People are fed up with bullshit, which is the regular diet dispensed at Duopoly kitchens--filling I suppose, but definitely not nutritious. Unfortunately 90% of the people have 10% of the money. 10% of the people have 90% of the money. Sounds equitable, doesn't it; after all it's symmetrical in its asymmetry. The Democrats are the walking dead, soon to be confined to CA, NY, MA, IL. These states will be their political Alamo. Surrender now Chuckie and you may survive. Nancy, you're a casualty of war with brain leaking out of your ear.
Trite, obvious and unhelpful
Of course symbolism without action is meaningless.
Would your please stop with yer constant unhelpful negativity and despair.
Next time, please take your shit in the bathroom.
Thanks.
Thanks for the advice. I am going to join the 700 club.
That's where things are sunny all day!
where life is beautiful all the time
[video:https://youtu.be/hnzHtm1jhL4 width:500 height:350]
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Another in the same vein.
Anyone dares view any idea that might lead to an improvement is guaranteed to be met with cynicism, despair, criticism from you.
If nothing can be done, why must you proclaim it so loudly to all and piss on anyone who dare disagree?
I don't piss on anybody--I bite
You haven't been bitten yet, but keep up your ad hominem protests and you just might be. If you have read any of my comments, you should know that I have been calling for a third party for MONTHS. Likewise I am hoping for a Democratic Party implosion that seems well on its way.
BTW, tell me what political news have you read lately that cheers you up?
@gendjinn Wait a minute...I
Wait a minute...I thought you were saying in this essay that optimism WASN'T warranted. ???
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@gendjinn Not sure why you're mad
Not sure why you're mad; he was basically agreeing with you.
But, as always YMMV.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
A little harsh there Ed
I'll just throw out this video in which Nick Brana and Jimmy Dore discuss the historical need for a third party. The Draft Bernie people will be at the 'Peoples Summit'.
Given the situation a third party seems to be the way forward.
I want a Pony!
People want to draft Sanders?????
What the Hell for? Has ANYONE ever heard him remark on the DNC's rigging of the primary? Has he ever said anything about the DNC's defense that they have a right to cheat??? And that only THEY have the right to pick the candidate Ina back room full of cigar smoke? Those events need to be brought out in the open because they go right to the heart of what constitutes 'free and fair' elections!
Funny the things the old sheep dog never mentions. Or does he agree with them? It's like his campaign. He never mentioned the server, foreign donations, fraud in reporting speaking fees as donations, etc. I don't think the old coot was ever in it to win it.
I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks
Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa
Well said. And I think your pessimism is spot on.
If Bernie were so intent on changing the party from within, why doesn’t he become a member of the party? Seems a bit hypocritical to me. Then again, maybe he thinks the new party movement hasn’t yet reached critical mass and will fail coming out of the shoot. I disagree with that notion. There’s a reason that independent ranks are almost as much as Repubs and Dems combined. The Dems had their chance to disavow corporate money and super delegates and then they go and elect a corporatist for DNC chair that gets booed everywhere he goes. And this after losing the presidency to an orange haired buffoon. I don’t know how the time could be more ripe. Please Bernie, it’s time to move on. In my view, it would be easier to start a new party now than go through years, maybe decades, of trying to root out the corruption of the Dem party. Climate change does not afford us the time.
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - JFK | "The more I see of the moneyed peoples, the more I understand the guillotine." - G. B. Shaw Bernie/Tulsi 2020
chute not shoot
That's my inner grammar nazi for today.
Gave you a thumbs up, BTW.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
One of the many questions I'd love answered
I can't be the only one who finds something completely off about a Democratic Party unity tour (or whatever the hell it was supposed to be) where one of the two participants isn't a member of the party. Not only, but he can't be so naive to really believe Herself won fair and square. (Or that they wouldn't do the same thing again give the chance.)
At this point in time, if anyone could give a credible start to a third party, Bernie is the man. He has the movement behind him. He is run proved there are people ready to go with someone who is going to fight for them. And, as we're discussing, he isn't even a Democrat! It's just frustrating and beyond my comprehension as to why he's still a company man for the Dems.
Idolizing a politician is like believing the stripper really likes you.
On the other hand are DNC corporatists real Democrats?
Who gets to decide who's a real Democrat? The people in charge now would probably cheat FDR in a primary to make Hillary the nominee. I don't think they should be given the right to declare who is a real Democrat when they've done so much to selfishly and obnoxiously destroy the democracy within the Democrats. Bernie votes with the Demonrats most of the time. He lauds Democratic accomplishments of the past, like the New Deal and civil rights and all the candidates he supports are Democrats. Maybe there is worth in continually pushing the Democrats from within. Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party do provide a model for that.
On the other hand, the biggest issues facing our world, like climate change, transcend political labels, except where those labels specifically address those issues, like the "Green Party" label. I support both Bernie's "revolution" and Jill Stein's important messages. I hope labels become less and less relevant in the future.
Beware the bullshit factories.
Agreed.
The current Republicans aren't the party of Lincoln anymore than the current Democrats are the party of FDR. When I see trend lines where more people are identifying as independent than with either party, that gives me hope. I think people are responding more to issues than the political football game, if my own expirence of die hard Republicans telling me they'd have voted for Bernie tells me anything. If people move away from blind party brand loyalty and vote based on policies, I only see that as a positive.
Idolizing a politician is like believing the stripper really likes you.
Abraham Lincoln and FDR
Or of JFK or LBJ, for that matter.
The American people, on the other hand, are still aligned with Honest Abe and FDR. To the wall!
Which explains why there are more Independents out there than GOPpers and Dems combined.
You'd think that one or the other of the major parties would twig to this and align themselves accordingly, but noooooooo!!
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Turd Way/DLCraporate/DNC IS NOT democratic!!
Those 21st century bozos try to pull a $hrillary stunt on the voters back in 1960 and 1964, they would have been run outta town!! Plus, they would have been so ridiculed, they would have snuffed themselves out of extreme embarrassment. Rec'd!!
Inner and Outer Space: the Final Frontiers.
I thought he joined before his run.
Wasn't that necessary to run? Did he un-join?
I've been disturbed by him but then I thought. "He's been a politician for a long time and a wily one". I think he has a motive and a plan. Yeah, that sounds like 11th Dimensional chess. Still, he is keeping the fires "berning" instead of slinking off into the sunset as Hilbots would like. I was very encouraged when he went on the "unity tour" and was cheered while Perez booed. That keeps the fires lit.
I believe in a third party, but the 1% for Jill Stein shows that the country doesn't. I think he believes in taking down the Dems internally. Possibly by just exposing them to the sunlight. Vampires can't stand that.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
@The Voice In the Wilderness I don't think 1% for
I don't think 1% for Jill Stein means much of anything other than the fact that the game is rigged against third parties as much as it is against progressives--both in the media and in the actual mechanics of our elections.
In other words, I think only about 32% of the population knew who Jill Stein was; and fraud is rife throughout our electoral system, so I'm not sure I can even trust the numbers anymore.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I'm not sure you can trust the numbers
damn right, what if JS got trumps votes or even hillerys votes
while her heinous actually got JS's vote tally, just sayin.
after all how can anyone trust the numbers in this banana republic?
I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish
"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"
Heard from Margaret Kimberley
wily politician
Let's hope and pray that Bernie's more "wily politician" and not so much Wile E. Coyote (Genius)!
[video:https://youtu.be/KdFxYcOaDQg width:500 height:350]
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
His actions do make
some sense if he is interested in influencing policy/legislation as much as he can right now and getting his supporters to run for office right now. He still, unfortunately, has to work with all of the office-holders of the party.
I read that Bernie didn't run 3rd party because he didn't want to get blamed if HRC lost (don't know if this is true or not). He could be helping the dems for the same reason at this moment.
Things could be entirely different in a year or so.
And there is no way Bernie believes HRC won fairly or RRR!! (Russia). So he seems to be keeping the peace for now.
dfarrah
I don't know what Sanders plan is but his primary bid
brought together a coalition of people that has not gone away and is growing stronger.
I've been here 25 years and been preaching the Dems are the veal pen in vain. Sanders achieved what no other politician to the left of the Republicans have achieved. This coalition is activated around the 5 big goals we all support here.
So I kinda take the stance, OK, maybe he will take us no further but he got a movement this far, maybe he has a plan that slowly brings everyone along. I think of how Adams and McGuinness beginning in 1982 brought over 90% of the Provisional movement along with the entire peace process through decommissioning in 2005. If he's going to do any more then I think he's really got no later than September when the political season officially kicks off again. If he is not the leader the there are several other candidates waiting in the wings to take the lead.
For some reason I can't shake I keep thinking something is going to happen in the fall. Certainly by 2018 there will be a different political landscape.
I hope you're right
especially about candidates waiting in the wings. (I've been trying to follow new names as much as I can.) You're 100% right about momentum. I've never seen anything like this and never thought I would. And I certainly think people are ready for real change because things just can't continue as they are.
Idolizing a politician is like believing the stripper really likes you.
There may be more real progressives waiting in the wings
but will the DNC, DCCC or any democrat help them win?
We have seen how they don't back more progressive candidates, or they let republicans run unopposed if they can't find a nice neoliberal to run against them.
Look at how many people who were running in special elections, and the democrats were no where to be found.
This tells me that they don't want to and will never change. Even as the party sinks into the DC swamp.
And this is what Bernie is showing us.
There were problems with running a campaign of Joy while committing a genocide? Who could have guessed?
Harris is unburdened of speaking going forward.
Well,
if there are candidates waiting in the wings, why would they want the help of the DNC or DCCC? These institutions knee-cap progressives. Maybe something is cooking for primary challenges. Primary challengers don't need the DNC or DCCC.
dfarrah
I agree, but
the problem with our political system does not allow for a third party. The change has to first come from outside any political party. Quite frankly, I am of the opinion that the Democratic party must die first before anything positive can happen. I have posted here numerous times that I am a firm believer in real change comes from social movements outside the political sphere. Politicians are there to guard the status quo, so they only change with the ground swell calling for change becomes to great to ignore. JMO and others' may vary.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
The reason for Perez was 'appointed' as the DNC chair
Major Israel donor smeary and Obama lobbying led to Ellison's defeat
Was because of Obama and Haim Saben.
Saben donates 12 million to fund the DNC and he threatened to pull his funding if Ellison had won.
Plus the reason for the Obamas staying in DC was to make sure that the party doesn't move to the left.
The Obamas are also staying in DC until their daughter graduates. But he is going to be very busy in the background making sure that his legacy doesn't collapse.
I don't see why he is so worried about that, IMO, he doesn't have much of one to begin with.
Unless it's the Middle East being f'cked beyond repair and Obamacare collapsing in on itself.
There were problems with running a campaign of Joy while committing a genocide? Who could have guessed?
Harris is unburdened of speaking going forward.
They all worry about their legacy.
Personally (speaking of you-know-who, not Obama) I'd hate for my legacy to be the destruction of Glass-Steagal and a disgusting act with a cigar.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
I would too
But I have a conscience. Both Bill and Hillary will never admit to themselves how much pain and misery that they caused.
There were problems with running a campaign of Joy while committing a genocide? Who could have guessed?
Harris is unburdened of speaking going forward.
they are sociopaths
They do not care. It is all about them and power and money. People be damned.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
@gulfgal98 Even the sainted
Even the sainted Nina Turner, in an interview I read from a link here today, I think from snoopydawg in a comment, casually referred to politicians as "those in our business"...
Government is not a business.
"Of the people" or government of some business people who run for office.
The gist of it was Keith Ellison was smeared because of Israel and Saban and other wealthy, Dem contributing Jews threatening to withhold funds from the Dems if he were elected chairman of the DNC.
She said smears were not the way to go, that "in this business", we need to debate issues.
I was very turned off by her choice of words.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Well, maybe it's about
time for them to donate all of their money to a military of their own, with membership provided by their own, to fight their wars.
dfarrah
@dfarrah dfarrah, I
dfarrah, I worry more about them using our tax dollars to purchase paramilitary police to protect them from us.
Yes, we send soldiers to protect oil, just like we have historically protected canals and ports and fucking bananas.
At some point, they won't need foreign wars to grab foreign resources.
They will need domestic protection.
From us.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Obama legacy
Dingdingdingding!!
EDIT: The Middle East was fucked beyond repair long before Obama was born. It was pretty much done for at the end of the Charlie Foxtrot To End All Charlie Foxtrots in 1918. And it was certainly so by 1947.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
IMHO if was fubar around 10,000 BC
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
10K BC
Oh, you mean like:
[video:https://youtu.be/-evIyrrjTTY width:500 height:350]
(I just love that video! So filled with historical truth!)
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
And it's only going to continue
and intensify, as long as we are dependent upon oil.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
@dervish
Nah, that 'limited nuclear war' which Those Who Matter believe they can survive and somehow profit from will stop everything dead in its tracks. As in the video.
Edited to move 'somehow' somewhere somewhat less ambiguous.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
The article I linked to is a must read
It shows again how Israel is in control of our government and at not just the federal level, but at the states levels too.
This Russian propaganda bullshit serves more than one purpose.
It gives TPTB an excuse to go to war against Russia.
It lets Hillary off the hook for losing the election to Donald Trump, the least qualified person to ever run for president.
Trump's jobs program is a way for the republicans to privatize our country and give them to corporations, local and foreign and putting them out of reach for the citizenry.
The biggest thing this is accomplishing is it's a distraction from what the republicans are doing to our regulatory agencies, the gutting of our social safety networks, and the trillions in tax breaks for the elite.
There were problems with running a campaign of Joy while committing a genocide? Who could have guessed?
Harris is unburdened of speaking going forward.
The spelling out of that
deserves a book or Intercept article or something similar; your finger is on a major artery. Frightening stuff.
Meanwhile the streets in this booming NW town are full of shining cars that all appear to be new or nearly new. Like that disease some suffer from at high altitude when their bodies produce so many red blood cells that they need to go in to have enough blood drawn and other liquid supplied so their overoccupied circulatory system won't be slowed to a stop.
Israeli influence is something
that most are terrified to even discuss, let alone criticize. Voltaire said "If you want to know who rules over you, just find out who you are not allowed to criticize".
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
Lot of painful and ugly history behind that
and to a certain extent a repetition of the US failed-strategy in setting up the state of "Liberia" in Africa with the idea that all the black people would go there (they didn't).
This one is biting us in the ass a lot harder because oil.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
@snoopydawg Oh, I get it. It was
Oh, I get it. It was religious bigotry. Wonderful.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I think any solution will have to start locally.
While the energy might be there, all of the national "Movements" seem to exist not to actually cause change in the party, but to bleed off the energy into nice safe free speech zones where people can yell all they like, but the PTB won't ever have to change or hear it.
There's a LOT of anger and energy, but as long as we try to start national, it ain't gonna work. The divisions are too great.
Me? I'm going to a community dinner party next week in Portland. Going to meet some new people, talk to neighbors, talk about what we can do to effect change and fix things locally. I'm getting involved and interested in PDX tenant/housing reform. It's the issue that matters the most to me, and screaming about it at politicians who won't lift a finger until I pony up a couple million is pointless.
I ain't waiting for the MSM to tell me how to take action or make changes. The revolution will NEVER be televised. Only the fake revolution that threatens nothing will be televised.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZku2REI-Xs]
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
At least in the Bay Area and anecdotally from youtube reports
local engagement started after the election and continues to grow. There are a growing number of progressive candidates primarying corporate Dems.
I really like the perspective and strategy Nick Brana articulates - granted he's hanging his hat on Sanders but the history of the birth of Democratic & Republican parties and the parallels to the present seem spot on to me. Personally, I'm engaged locally but I don't have much faith in any of the existing parties and waiting for a new People/Progressive party to gain traction and replace the Dems.
national movements
Nevertheless, do not underestimate our power even over them.
The recent story of "real Labour" under Jeremy Corbyn has gotten me thinking.
The PTB may light fires in seven of their little veal pens. But they will find abundant flames and smoke in eight, or even eighty! And including their own house at that.
I don't particularly care how Killary's ilk goes down, so long as it does just that. And it will. Ordinary working-class people can take no more, and something other than them has got to give.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
The Democrat Party has been neutered.
No amount of surgery will counter its impotence. It is a Yugo of a machine that appeals only to the most deluded( it's nice looking and advertized to go 200,000 miles) cheapskates. The proverbial " suckers born every minute " with lead addled brains.
A new party, a nationwide Credexit, or violent revolution are the only options.
Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.
I'm finding that (at least in the Bay Area) they have entirely
alienated the Millennial vote. All they seem to have left is the angry GenX/Boomer crew that buys RussiaGate.
Their rejection of the rising progressive movement and their party corporate structures that prevent reform guarantee they will be replaced by a new or existing party as the voice of the left.
@gendjinn How many of my
How many of my generation buy that shit, I wonder? And I wonder how much overlap there is with the people, who, in their teens, bought Reagan's shit just as gleefully?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
the Dems
They said that about Labour under Blair, too. And it was just as true about them then.
It isn't just the country that is in risk of a revolution. Political organizations are even more so, as Jeremy Corbin and his followers in the United Kingdom have shown us.
KKKillary and her ilk spent billions of dollars and millions of people-hours fending off Bernie and the revolution he started. Then, that same ilk tried to hold us in their little veal pens; even Bernie himself must now face the fact that this, too, has failed and miserably so. Most of us who were Berniacs in 2016 are registered Independent today, myself included.
DemExit followed by CredExit. It's already making the changes we want to see.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
At this point,
I think that the only force that might put the brakes on this slide towards destruction is the collapse of the dollar. That would be catastrophic, but less so than permanent war.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
@thanatokephaloides
Can we be sure that the intent was not to show this, as it has so admirably done, to the corporate-media-limited public? The Dems have shown their true colours as those of corporate scum throughout - while Bernie 'promotes' them by showing what government should be and do toward the public good in the very public face of the Dems 'no, nothing can be done for the American people, who must be utterly drained for Those Who Matter and who have already drained nearly-but-not-yet-all, because We Are Capitalists' pathology.
Bernie provides the contrast by promoting the notion of democracy while standing in the very mouth of the Beast.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
Dore said "if everybody had voted their conscience instead
of for Clinton". Hell, everybody who voted for Clinton has no conscience. It's like the Obama supporters, or 80% of democrats. They're supporting war and murder by supporting Obama, are these the people you want to band together with?
I thought a couple third parties had been started on the left and right after this last election (?). Then there are the ten or so existing third parties that continue to struggle. Young people like this Nick fellow, too tied into the political system already, might think this time is different, that his generation will be the one to reject the status quo. But to me that gives short shrift to those before us that fought like hell to change things. This is different, but it's still the same thing.
I'm glad people are thinking about what can be done to counter the duopoly. Whether it be by third parties or an independent movement, or something else, hopefully something can shake out before they start campaigning AGAIN!
60% of the country cannot put their hands on $500
Those are the conditions in which change or revolution happens.
There is no way the Dems can veal pen that reality. All they can accomplish is to alienate progressives from their party.
When 60% of the country are not represented by either party then you get a new one. Even in the duopoly of American politics. If the PTB try to prevent this change happening peacefully it WILL happen violently. History is very clear on that point.
basic high school chemistry
You'd think that there was somebody among all these politicos who passed basic high school chemistry! If you try to prevent an inevitable reaction from taking place peacefully, it will occur violently!
And the current "leadership" of the Dems, by sticking with austerity and their slavish devotion to Wall Street, have immersed the sodium metal in the water and shoved the stopper in tight! Explosion? Count on it!
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
@Big Al It's not about creating a
It's not about creating a third party, but a second one, if we're going to create a party at all. But I don't actually trust Brana, and I wouldn't put Bernie at the head of the party--not under current conditions.
Bernie only became Bernie because he kept telling the truth repeatedly where people could hear him. Bernie wasn't Bernie in Dec 2015. Another person or people could become Bernie quite easily; the question is, how are they going to get visibility?
Not through the mainstream press. Anybody who gets coverage through there is likely compromised.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@Big Al Again? Try still.
Again? Try still.
Hillary hasn't stopped campaigning for a minute. It's been going full bore. I'm starting to think this is the sick punishment she's devised because we didn't fall in line and hand her her crown.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
The DNC chair election was my tipping point.
I really think they're right, that there isn't that much difference between Ellison and Perez, but the fact that TPTB in the party said "oh, they're both great and either would be fine" and then did just about everything they could to ensure Perez won, told me everything I needed to know. Especially based on Ellison's statements after the fact, I really doubt policy wise there would be that much difference. But it's truly a principal of the matter issue. They couldn't even give a symbolic and probably meaningless victory to progressives at a time when I think the gesture could have done more good than a thousand "Unity Tours."
What happened in California is right in line with what I expect to keep happening. Even if somehow Bernie had won the primary, I'm starting to feel the party would have done as much as they could to prevent him from winning the election. As others have said, it's pretty apparent they'd rather lose to Trump than win with Bernie or any progressive.
Idolizing a politician is like believing the stripper really likes you.
Typical 21st Century Corporate Behavior
The ACA... mandated profits, stock price jumping, and the insurance companies are pulling out.
It's not about profits (winning elections and popular support) it's about control. They will accept no fetters or checks on their power. Insurance companies will not bend a knee to government. To do so is to hemorrhage power in the future.
Allowing Ellison in gives the People a check against corporate sponsors, it won't matter if they win or not. It will harm the ability to control policy.
This is a typical Nation of Men behavior. Nation of Men is all about corporate sponsored public policy these days. Got a few great corporate sponsors and you're above the law, government and the voters bend a knee to you.
“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu
Certainly the DNC chair was an obvious tipping of the hand.
I still held out some small hope that perhaps the voters could democratically take over the party apparatus and fix the problems that way. The CA state Dem party has proven that will not be allowed. That there is no democracy in the Dem party.
So far the various Justice Dems, BNC, Our Revolution have been head in the sand (have not watched the Sanders speech yesterday in Chicago). Their credibility is going to evaporate and the charges of being a veal pen will gain in credibility if they do not address this.
There are a growing number of progressives trying to primary corporate Dems, I am pretty sure I know the outcome but it's about the only minuscule rationale these "reform the Dems" group can hang their hat on.
I look at it this way
We will never totally get rid of war, murder, racism, greed, etc.
But that doesn't mean we should just give up.
I think there are more fruitful avenues for my energies
to be applied. I gave up on the Dems along time ago but did not formally rule out the ability to reform them until I saw the fate of that reformation attempt in CA.
I think the new party approach that birthed both the Republican and Democratic parties is now the most likely to succeed. I see the energy and the hunger for it in the populace in a way I've never seen in the US before.
The energy for change is palpable these days.
Can't see working for a party that gets 1% of the vote.
Besides the two major parties, the voters rejected the Greens. The Libertarians got far more votes and you would expect them to go for Trump.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
@The Voice In the Wilderness You can't reject
You can't reject something you know nothing about.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
So you are saying the Greens didn't campaign.
Fair enough. I never heard anything except on NPR, XM Progressive Radio and leftie blogs.
Which raises the suspicion that they don't want to win. They want to play a game and pretend that they are political candidates instead of generating an army of volunteers that goes door to door engaging the voters, as both Democrats and Republicans do in my town.
Also they ran candidates for president and Senator but not Congress and certainly not for the more attainable state rep and state senator positions. They did run candidates for the Cook county water reclamation board but those are a lock for the (D)'s. So they ran candidates, talked to reporters, but knew they weren't going to win. All a game. They have a chance at suburban state districts, village boards, and township councils, but don't run. No glamor. If you can't put "Candidate for US Senate" on your resume, it's not fun. I think they are playing at being a political party.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
@The Voice In the Wilderness I sometimes
I sometimes believe this about the Greens, that they actually are just virtue-signalling rather than campaigning.
But it's not just about what they want. It's also about the control the media exerts over visibility, not only of politicians and parties, but of issues and data and just about everything else. It is time, past time, to create a more effective workaround. And the fact that the Democrats have no interest in doing that, none, that they in fact have contributed mightily to this monopoly control over information, the fact that they're still doing that today, this minute, constitutes political malpractice, or it would if they were actually a political party instead of a suppression machine. It's the reason nobody should invest any more energy in them ever, and the reason that the best thing we could do is create a stronger, more resilient, more multi-location and multi-centered independent media. It's also why we really, really need to discuss co-optation and corruption, and the fact that good people and good organizations get compromised so that people no longer know whom to trust, get a really good solid realistic understanding of how that works, and create feasible countermeasures to that tactic, because it's being used to horrific effect. Every time people try to leave the lie-spewers, the lie-spewers essentially chase them down and corrupt the new outlets they rely on. Well, when they're not calling those outlets traitors and fifth columnists and useful idiots, aka "fake news."
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@The Voice In the Wilderness
https://www.democracynow.org/2012/10/17/green_partys_jill_stein_cheri_ho...
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
@The Voice In the Wilderness Further, I wonder how
Further, I wonder how many people who DID know who Jill Stein was were saying "I like the Greens, but they just can't win." The same thing a lot of them kept saying about Bernie.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Corbyn has shown the way.
The way that Bernie took. He could have formed a fringe party but he took a major party.
The (D) party might still go the way of the Whigs. Then a new radical party like the mid-19th century Republicans could come out of the ashes. But not while the (D) party controls the cities. The cities have huge populations that vote like automatons for whatever (D) is on the ballot.
EDIT: footnote: strange as it seems today, the Republicans were once a progressive party that was largely formed based on disgust with chattel slavery.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
@The Voice In the Wilderness We can't do what
We can't do what Corbyn did, because he has two things we don't: 1)a parliamentary system, 2)votes on paper ballots being hand-counted in rooms filled with cameras and televised in real time.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@The Voice In the Wilderness If we want an
If we want an electoral path forward, the way is to destroy the Democratic party and create a second party, not a third.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I'll buy that.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
FWIW
I think every single person who told me during the primaries that Bernie couldn't win has now (with no prompting from me, I might add) decided that he could have and would have won.
As for Stein, your point about people can't vote for something they don't know exists holds. (Of course, I still hear plenty about "throwing away" your vote by going third party to which I respond how is that less productive than being bullied into voting for a party that has made it clear they don't have my interests at heart?)
Idolizing a politician is like believing the stripper really likes you.
Yeah, I think there is some advocacy here for giving up
Like that meme goes: "There is no planet B". The worst thing we can do is get paralyzed by a feeling of futility.
Beware the bullshit factories.
I agree with Sanders
link
Yes, it is a total failure. That's why we should try.
But then the NY Times is there to tell us why we can't have that pony.
Just ignore the fact that the Dems don't win.
Giving up what?
The fight? Or just one tactic?
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
Giving up the fight
The fight involves not getting overwhelmed with negativity. There is a lot of gray in the World. Not everybody who voted for Hillary is a "Hillbot". There is not a conspiracy by the PTB around every corner. There are some bad things about Putin and his Russia. If we get all worked up about how evil the Clintons are we can't figure out a rational strategy to make things better. Maybe I'm talking about giving up constructiveness and resigning ourselves to overwhelming cynicism.
Beware the bullshit factories.
That's why I don't spend
nearly as much time as I used to thinking about politics. It's a lost cause.
Neither of the two dominant parties represent my values, and third parties are a pipe dream.
Nothing is going to break the stranglehold the corporate establishment has on the Democrats and no thrid party has an ice cube's chance in hell of being more than a footnote on election day.
I'm seriously considering unregistering because voting is meaningless anyway. All I get out of being a registered voter is fucking jury duty.
If the day comes when I see a mob marching toward DC with pitchforks and torches I'll join them. Until that happens it all feels like a big waste of time.
And I know. That's exactly what they want me to do, give up. Well, they won. I have.
No, you haven't given up.
You're waiting for the only option we've got, the revolution. The more people that understand that, the sooner we'll get there.
I'm hoping that revolution will take the form of a new party
and not a pitchforks approach because that approach is like a raging river that has the potential (and almost always does) sweep away so many innocent before it.
How many Cinncinatus and Washingtons in history are there compared to the number of counter-examples?
Revolution simply means a change in power.
It doesn't mean it has to be violent or even physical. I think our culture and history have conditioned us to believe a revolution means violence. To me, that's not what it means. We live in different times with a great ability for national and global communication and organization (for now). We can take advantage of that.
Actually, a revolution as I envision it would be just like forming and organizing a third party except it would not be about electing politicians to participate in this farce of a political system.
@Dopeman I'm with Al; you haven't
I'm with Al; you haven't given up.
That said, the point is really not to have a 3rd party, but to destroy the Dems so we can have an actual second party. Right now, we don't. We have one party.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal I'm not implying Al is
I'm not implying Al is in favor of any kind of political party or electoral strategy. I'm not even sure I'm in favor of it. But we might as well stop talking about 3rd parties; we're not talking about creating a third party, but a second one--if we're talking about creating a party at all.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
A good thing to do, in my opinion.
1. how to achieve that is 1st question.
2. then you have to figure how to take advantage.
Probably there are some here with history chops who know how this worked in the past.
For all the talk about "people's movement", consider-
what is the difference in progressive politics in country now and 18 months back?
Bernie Sanders. all the progressives out there & it took sanders to get them moving in one direction.
now we are all milling around again.
but a well- planned campaign to take down dem party is a start.
The base of the democratic party has changed.
I would point out the article by gjohnsit:
https://caucus99percent.com/content/disturbing-look-todays-democrats
Basically, the essay is about the changing nature of the one of the critical bases of the democratic party which was not there before. Which has as one of its links:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/01/opinion/democratic-party-rich-thomas-...
It is not the case that there was a house coupe and a minority took over the party. No, the reality is that a good part of the democratic party are basically "socially liberal" and highly educated neoliberal elites. Add in identity politics and essentially the expulsion of white working class males and females and economic populists, and you have the modern democratic party.
Plus one thing to add. Establishment democrats will cheat interlopers in the primaries. Or if an interloper does get through, refuse to support them in the general election. One may not be able to reform the democratic party, but I suppose there is hope to push them left on some issues.
Hope to push them left? Dream on!
We dreamed that dream in 2008, and look where it got us.
Nope, it's time to throw out both parties and start over.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Indeed.
Very true. Obama should have been Sanders before Sanders ran last year.
@TheOtherMaven
And, more importantly, the self-interests running the various front-puppets nonetheless still termed political parties/candidates.
Not to mention that Homeland InSecurity had taken all relating to the American electoral infrastructure into Top-Secret-Land, where interested private parties will be privy to discussion and information regarding elections which can be denied the American public.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
Listen to their rhetoric since the 90s -
they are not for the working class, but the bourgeoisie.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
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