@thanatokephaloides Funny. I thought it was gonna be "Rich Girl."

[video:https://youtu.be/s_8KR-n2fBQ width:500 height:350]

@Phoebe Loosinhouse

BOTH parties have failed and blown up at the same time in our two party system. How someone does not capitalize on this moment to build from the foundation Bernie Sanders laid and start a new third Party that does truly care about the welfare of the 99% blows my mind

.

It blows my mind, too, but it takes work - actual work to move in another direction. I wish I didn't have to work full-time, right now. I wish I had the time to devote to do this. Something's gotta give. I'm willing to jump in and help.

with the concerns of most Americans, I think the issue is that many have come to the realization that any concern Dems do voice is inauthentic and not to be trusted; much of the blame for that can be laid directly at Barack Obama's door and the choice to run Hillary Clinton at all costs.

When President Obama was elected in 2008, it was a repudiation of both Bush and Clinton and Obama proceeded to become an amalgam of some of the worst aspects of both. Additionally, particularly in matters within the purview of the Executive Branch, most specifically the Justice Department, the Treasury, the SEC and Hud, Obama and the Democrats ignored the economic carnage that had been wrecked upon average Americans and let Wall Street and the mortgage and finance industries plunder with impunity. American lost their homes, their jobs, their savings, and their pensions while Obama and his minions just stood by and let it happen. Americans know what happened to them and who is to blame and also who is to blame for allowing the miscreants to roam freely and benefit from their frauds and predatory behavior.

I won't even delve into Obama being the first President to offer cuts in Social Security and the Democrats attempting to embrace the suck and ram it through. How about that great catfood commission anyway? Is that what anyone expected when they elected Democrats in a sweep?

When it came to healthcare, the Democrats served up a program that maintained health predators as the linchpin and gave Americans healthcare they couldn't afford if they needed to actually use it when the co-pays and deductibles were factored in. This was no surprise, people tried to tell them this from the very beginning. Medicare drugs are still not negotiated, there is no public option, and cheaper drugs from Canada are still forbidden to desperate Americans who continue to go bankrupt when they become ill. Thanks, Democrats!

I think the final straw was when Chuck Schumer openly said that they'd LOVE to have 2 moderate suburban Republican voters for every white collar working vote they lost.

Yes, Republicans are insane and awful, but the Democrats are no longer perceived as the answer and antidote.

BOTH parties have failed and blown up at the same time in our two party system. How someone does not capitalize on this moment to build from the foundation Bernie Sanders laid and start a new third Party that does truly care about the welfare of the 99% blows my mind.

@Phoebe Loosinhouse

Both will lose. Biden is Obama's boy. Warren lost her most fervent supporters by not endorsing/running with Bernie. Neither can or will be trusted.

with the concerns of most Americans, I think the issue is that many have come to the realization that any concern Dems do voice is inauthentic and not to be trusted; much of the blame for that can be laid directly at Barack Obama's door and the choice to run Hillary Clinton at all costs.

When President Obama was elected in 2008, it was a repudiation of both Bush and Clinton and Obama proceeded to become an amalgam of some of the worst aspects of both. Additionally, particularly in matters within the purview of the Executive Branch, most specifically the Justice Department, the Treasury, the SEC and Hud, Obama and the Democrats ignored the economic carnage that had been wrecked upon average Americans and let Wall Street and the mortgage and finance industries plunder with impunity. American lost their homes, their jobs, their savings, and their pensions while Obama and his minions just stood by and let it happen. Americans know what happened to them and who is to blame and also who is to blame for allowing the miscreants to roam freely and benefit from their frauds and predatory behavior.

I won't even delve into Obama being the first President to offer cuts in Social Security and the Democrats attempting to embrace the suck and ram it through. How about that great catfood commission anyway? Is that what anyone expected when they elected Democrats in a sweep?

When it came to healthcare, the Democrats served up a program that maintained health predators as the linchpin and gave Americans healthcare they couldn't afford if they needed to actually use it when the co-pays and deductibles were factored in. This was no surprise, people tried to tell them this from the very beginning. Medicare drugs are still not negotiated, there is no public option, and cheaper drugs from Canada are still forbidden to desperate Americans who continue to go bankrupt when they become ill. Thanks, Democrats!

I think the final straw was when Chuck Schumer openly said that they'd LOVE to have 2 moderate suburban Republican voters for every white collar working vote they lost.

Yes, Republicans are insane and awful, but the Democrats are no longer perceived as the answer and antidote.

BOTH parties have failed and blown up at the same time in our two party system. How someone does not capitalize on this moment to build from the foundation Bernie Sanders laid and start a new third Party that does truly care about the welfare of the 99% blows my mind.

@Phoebe Loosinhouse

How someone does not capitalize on this moment to build from the foundation Bernie Sanders laid and start a new third Party that does truly care about the welfare of the 99% blows my mind

people want to believe Sanders is that "someone", but he doesn't have what it takes.
leaves us waiting for a hero. not much of a strategy.

but the Sane Progressive is right. we can't start lying for sanders.
this is just what ails the "pragmatic" dems.

no more! and screw Sanders until he comes clean.

with the concerns of most Americans, I think the issue is that many have come to the realization that any concern Dems do voice is inauthentic and not to be trusted; much of the blame for that can be laid directly at Barack Obama's door and the choice to run Hillary Clinton at all costs.

When President Obama was elected in 2008, it was a repudiation of both Bush and Clinton and Obama proceeded to become an amalgam of some of the worst aspects of both. Additionally, particularly in matters within the purview of the Executive Branch, most specifically the Justice Department, the Treasury, the SEC and Hud, Obama and the Democrats ignored the economic carnage that had been wrecked upon average Americans and let Wall Street and the mortgage and finance industries plunder with impunity. American lost their homes, their jobs, their savings, and their pensions while Obama and his minions just stood by and let it happen. Americans know what happened to them and who is to blame and also who is to blame for allowing the miscreants to roam freely and benefit from their frauds and predatory behavior.

I won't even delve into Obama being the first President to offer cuts in Social Security and the Democrats attempting to embrace the suck and ram it through. How about that great catfood commission anyway? Is that what anyone expected when they elected Democrats in a sweep?

When it came to healthcare, the Democrats served up a program that maintained health predators as the linchpin and gave Americans healthcare they couldn't afford if they needed to actually use it when the co-pays and deductibles were factored in. This was no surprise, people tried to tell them this from the very beginning. Medicare drugs are still not negotiated, there is no public option, and cheaper drugs from Canada are still forbidden to desperate Americans who continue to go bankrupt when they become ill. Thanks, Democrats!

I think the final straw was when Chuck Schumer openly said that they'd LOVE to have 2 moderate suburban Republican voters for every white collar working vote they lost.

Yes, Republicans are insane and awful, but the Democrats are no longer perceived as the answer and antidote.

BOTH parties have failed and blown up at the same time in our two party system. How someone does not capitalize on this moment to build from the foundation Bernie Sanders laid and start a new third Party that does truly care about the welfare of the 99% blows my mind.

@Phoebe Loosinhouse How the very important people and pundits were so surprised by Trump's victory given the state of affairs for most voters as you've described here, just proves once again the thickness of their bubble.

with the concerns of most Americans, I think the issue is that many have come to the realization that any concern Dems do voice is inauthentic and not to be trusted; much of the blame for that can be laid directly at Barack Obama's door and the choice to run Hillary Clinton at all costs.

When President Obama was elected in 2008, it was a repudiation of both Bush and Clinton and Obama proceeded to become an amalgam of some of the worst aspects of both. Additionally, particularly in matters within the purview of the Executive Branch, most specifically the Justice Department, the Treasury, the SEC and Hud, Obama and the Democrats ignored the economic carnage that had been wrecked upon average Americans and let Wall Street and the mortgage and finance industries plunder with impunity. American lost their homes, their jobs, their savings, and their pensions while Obama and his minions just stood by and let it happen. Americans know what happened to them and who is to blame and also who is to blame for allowing the miscreants to roam freely and benefit from their frauds and predatory behavior.

I won't even delve into Obama being the first President to offer cuts in Social Security and the Democrats attempting to embrace the suck and ram it through. How about that great catfood commission anyway? Is that what anyone expected when they elected Democrats in a sweep?

When it came to healthcare, the Democrats served up a program that maintained health predators as the linchpin and gave Americans healthcare they couldn't afford if they needed to actually use it when the co-pays and deductibles were factored in. This was no surprise, people tried to tell them this from the very beginning. Medicare drugs are still not negotiated, there is no public option, and cheaper drugs from Canada are still forbidden to desperate Americans who continue to go bankrupt when they become ill. Thanks, Democrats!

I think the final straw was when Chuck Schumer openly said that they'd LOVE to have 2 moderate suburban Republican voters for every white collar working vote they lost.

Yes, Republicans are insane and awful, but the Democrats are no longer perceived as the answer and antidote.

BOTH parties have failed and blown up at the same time in our two party system. How someone does not capitalize on this moment to build from the foundation Bernie Sanders laid and start a new third Party that does truly care about the welfare of the 99% blows my mind.

@Phoebe Loosinhouse
I thought for sure that once Bernie shed Hillary like so much flotsam he would be back out there leading the parade. The time is Now! There won't be a better one. Anyone with Bernie cred could get this done. The problem is nobody from Capitol Hill supported him in the Primary, all scared to death to oppose Hillary.

with the concerns of most Americans, I think the issue is that many have come to the realization that any concern Dems do voice is inauthentic and not to be trusted; much of the blame for that can be laid directly at Barack Obama's door and the choice to run Hillary Clinton at all costs.

When President Obama was elected in 2008, it was a repudiation of both Bush and Clinton and Obama proceeded to become an amalgam of some of the worst aspects of both. Additionally, particularly in matters within the purview of the Executive Branch, most specifically the Justice Department, the Treasury, the SEC and Hud, Obama and the Democrats ignored the economic carnage that had been wrecked upon average Americans and let Wall Street and the mortgage and finance industries plunder with impunity. American lost their homes, their jobs, their savings, and their pensions while Obama and his minions just stood by and let it happen. Americans know what happened to them and who is to blame and also who is to blame for allowing the miscreants to roam freely and benefit from their frauds and predatory behavior.

I won't even delve into Obama being the first President to offer cuts in Social Security and the Democrats attempting to embrace the suck and ram it through. How about that great catfood commission anyway? Is that what anyone expected when they elected Democrats in a sweep?

When it came to healthcare, the Democrats served up a program that maintained health predators as the linchpin and gave Americans healthcare they couldn't afford if they needed to actually use it when the co-pays and deductibles were factored in. This was no surprise, people tried to tell them this from the very beginning. Medicare drugs are still not negotiated, there is no public option, and cheaper drugs from Canada are still forbidden to desperate Americans who continue to go bankrupt when they become ill. Thanks, Democrats!

I think the final straw was when Chuck Schumer openly said that they'd LOVE to have 2 moderate suburban Republican voters for every white collar working vote they lost.

Yes, Republicans are insane and awful, but the Democrats are no longer perceived as the answer and antidote.

BOTH parties have failed and blown up at the same time in our two party system. How someone does not capitalize on this moment to build from the foundation Bernie Sanders laid and start a new third Party that does truly care about the welfare of the 99% blows my mind.

@Cassiodorus

They've got a pretty good jump on it now.

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/09/10-arguments-the-republicans-aren...

It's an argument about why the Republicans tried to lose the Presidency in 2012. It's worth reading in sum, but this is the money quote:

The Republicans don’t want to discuss tax cheating, offshoring, corruption, inequality, dissent, the rule of law, endless war, or Wall Street criminality. They’d rather lose. It’s not that they want to lose in 2012, it’s just that they aren’t going to go after every vote. It’s the same reason no one talks about how Romney is a flip-flopper anymore, or points out that Romney is the architect of Obamacare, or was a moderate Republican governor in Massachusetts. Those arguments are worse for the political class, and better for the public. And that is how elections operate in authoritarian America. The secondary goal is to win the election, the primary goal is to keep the public out of the deal-making.

Now it's the Democrats' turn to try to lose. They'd rather hand government over to the Republicans than let the Berniecrats have any of it.

@Cassiodorus Actually, I disagree. I think it was their turn to win. There is, IMO, genuine shock from the establishment that their candidate lost. The whole idea of Donald Trump running was supposed to be that Hillary would coast in on a wave of American Terror at the thought of Trump in the White House. I don't think Trump expected to win, and I certainly don't think Hillary expected to lose. It was the Dems' turn to win the White House (and continue massively losing Congress), because the establishment loves the Obama model: put some Democrat in the White House who has some demographic claim on victim status, whether that be race, gender, ethnic identity, sexual identity, or religion, while giving Republicans enormous majorities in Congress and keeping the Supreme Court marching ever rightward. That's a lovely winning formula for them, in which the President acts as a kind of moral meatshield for his own party, the political system, and the horrible policies perpetuated by it, while the Republicans anchor the narrative by playing the diabolical heel.

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/09/10-arguments-the-republicans-aren...

It's an argument about why the Republicans tried to lose the Presidency in 2012. It's worth reading in sum, but this is the money quote:

The Republicans don’t want to discuss tax cheating, offshoring, corruption, inequality, dissent, the rule of law, endless war, or Wall Street criminality. They’d rather lose. It’s not that they want to lose in 2012, it’s just that they aren’t going to go after every vote. It’s the same reason no one talks about how Romney is a flip-flopper anymore, or points out that Romney is the architect of Obamacare, or was a moderate Republican governor in Massachusetts. Those arguments are worse for the political class, and better for the public. And that is how elections operate in authoritarian America. The secondary goal is to win the election, the primary goal is to keep the public out of the deal-making.

Now it's the Democrats' turn to try to lose. They'd rather hand government over to the Republicans than let the Berniecrats have any of it.

@karl pearson and that's what makes me think these Democrats are fine with him and his agenda - let him rip it all to pieces, let him put even more people into poverty, let him go to town on deportations and war, and then they get to come back in and try to "save us" from the damage, but they'll do nothing that hurts their big donors, and their big donors know that.

Aren't the big donors to the Democratic party getting tired of the losses? I don't expect the Dem elites to change so they can truly appeal to white working class voters; however politicians have to win to stay relevant. As the effects of neoliberalism worsen, more people will become less well off. I don't see how the Democratic party stays truly alive without returning to their FDR roots. Concentrating on turning out higher numbers in their base isn't going to solve the problem. Dems need to provide a reason to vote for them.

@karl pearson don't really care about winning elections, just winning votes in Congress and the states. They are playing both sides. The Democrats are their insurance policy in close votes to ensure the votes go the way of what the big donors want.

Aren't the big donors to the Democratic party getting tired of the losses? I don't expect the Dem elites to change so they can truly appeal to white working class voters; however politicians have to win to stay relevant. As the effects of neoliberalism worsen, more people will become less well off. I don't see how the Democratic party stays truly alive without returning to their FDR roots. Concentrating on turning out higher numbers in their base isn't going to solve the problem. Dems need to provide a reason to vote for them.

@detroitmechworks But..but....isn't it Tim Kanes turn?

as long as they can.

Last time they tried "New Clinton" which tasted just like the old Clinton, but with more bombing. They also tried changing the color on that.

Nobody wanted to try "Clinton II", but they blitzed the media for years trying to get us to buy it.

Now of course, they're going to sell "Clinton II Jr." Which has a rather predictable outcome.

@PhilK I started watching but need to leave. Will definitely take it up later. But some of those early figures still continue to devastate. Hillary's popular vote win was due to three states--NY, MA, and CA. And ended up losing total popular vote of remaining 47 sates.Apparently, the DNC and the Hillary campaign never heard of the Electoral College.

. . . but this presentation they sponsored is totally consistent with GJohn's diary, including the title:
[video:https://youtu.be/YdpubsPLCMo]
When the losership of a party makes Third Way sound reasonable, you gotta know that party sucks big-time.

@PhilK Surprising how hard it is for me to voluntarily listen to a member of the 3rd way.

. . . but this presentation they sponsored is totally consistent with GJohn's diary, including the title:
[video:https://youtu.be/YdpubsPLCMo]
When the losership of a party makes Third Way sound reasonable, you gotta know that party sucks big-time.

@doh1304 I am not entirely sure she won Boston.

1. If you believe that Hillary actually got 65 million votes you also believe in pixies, brownies and fairies.
2. His county map is even worse than he shows it to be. Hillary really only won 4 cities - NYC, Boston, Los Angeles, and Chicago. without those cities she would have lost 3 or 4 states.
3. "Demography = destiny is actually true, but is being misinterpreted. The Harvard poll shows that the groups best supporting Bernie were African Americans and women - the presumed demographic wave is going to be Berniecrats, exactly those groups that the third way are abandoning.
3. The types of whites who turned against the Democrats are the lower end of the working class - the part of the middle class that minorities (well people without college degrees) step into. In other words, if the Republicans give up on the racism stuff minorities will start shifting also.
4. Finally I agree with him wholeheartedly! Social progress without scorn. (though I disagree with his indictment of M*A*S*H, it was a lot more complex and forgivable than he (and modern feminists) present it)
5. His 1/3, 2/3 rather than 1%, 99% - he's just wrong, though possibly his 1/3rd are just starting to realize it.

@Phoebe Loosinhouse See, I think the asset-stripping is intentional. It's just another way to transfer assets from an older person to the state rather than to their family. There's simply no rational reason that assets are not protected for a person over 55. That's when they are likely retiring and most in need of whatever assets they have. It's deliberate. It has to be.

Also - hi, folks!

and that is the Medicaid expansion of healthcare through the ACA. Yes, that saved lives and it also recognized that income and assets are different and did not require people to spend themselves into poverty before offering to save them from dying in ditches by the side of the road for lack of simple basic decent healthcare. But even then, they found it necessary to screw those over 55 by allowing states to place liens on their properties (no, this has NOTHING to do with nursing home care) so that people between the ages of 55-65 can be asset-stripped by the states while those younger than 55 are not affected. Who writes laws like this?

Now, given that the Medicaid expansion saved thousands of lives, how is it that the Democrats are completely unable to frame this winning situation in Red States that did not accept the expansion and literally chose to kill off their inhabitants as the alternative? What kind of a Party can lose with an argument like that in their arsenal? (Although the did hinder themselves with the asset-stripping Trojan Horse for older voters, it does not affect younger voters, many of whom have multiple part-time jobs with no healthcare plus they are in student debt bondage.)

IMO, the answer is that our Congress and Senate are comprised largely of people in the upper percentiles of income in the first place and they can't conceive of anyone not having a spare 20K hanging around in order to pay off co-pays and deductibles. I believe this is literally true and they don't know that many Americans cannot cover one unexpected $500 expense, whether it is a car repair or an MRI and that they are one paycheck away from disaster. Congresscritters should be required to spend one week-end a month with a randomly selected constituent to see how the other half lives, eats, works and survives.

@Bollox Ref

when the Democrats talk about appealing to "moderate" voters, they are not talking about policy, they are talking about social status. There's a whole bunch of moderately wealthy Democrats who just want to be on the right side of social justice, but don't particularly care very deeply about economic justice because they are doing okay in the grand scheme of things: they have money in the bank, 401K's and IRAs, property equity and employer provided healthcare. They don't "get" the struggle because they are not struggling. You can include the entire Democratic pundit and consultancy class in this group. They know where their bread is buttered.

just west of downtown Minneapolis, sums up the 'Democratic' party of today.

Extremely well heeled....

and the only place I saw any number of HRC signs.

Sounds like the clientele of one Orange Dead State.