Women should have to register for the draft

If men have to register for the draft, then women should too.
That would be equality. That would be fair.

As we progress into this new age of redefining roles, that demands equality between the sexes, the draft is an issue that begs ask why?

Why men but not women. Why must men be denied their civil rights if they don't want to risk being drafted to war and death? But women have no risk of that denial of rights or that risk of being called to war against their will. Are women special somehow? Special or equal?

I'm sure we can all come up with reasons for not having women die in battle. Who wants women to die in battle? No one of course.
If we examine those reason will we find incongruences within our positions?
I think most assuredly yes.
Would recognizing those incongruences help us to make a more just and equal society?
Again I think most assuredly yes.

Men and women are indeed different. Society understands this and doesn't want to force on women the horrors of war that we force on our men.
I don't think that's a bad thing, though it does reek of the patriarchy protecting poor, tender, defenseless women.

Can anyone give me reasons to exclude women from mandatory draft registration that doesn't turn the tenets of feminism on their head?

I doubt it, but I'm more than willing to listen.

When I hold up the mirror, what do you see? Are you the fairest in the land?
Are some animals more equal than others? It appears so.

I think it's a simple question. Yes women should register for the draft the very same as men do, if equality is to mean anything at all.

In a free and open society as ours we thrive on free speech and rational discussions on issues of the day. Please keep in mind the 'rational' part of that sentence should you choose to reply here.
If you plan on replying expressing how women have suffered for so long. Please don't. It's not germane to the issue.
We live in this day.

Keep in mind that when your friend points out to you the illogic of your position. That friend does not hate you. That friend is being loving to you.

If you want men to stop talking about unequal stuff then support making things equal, help make them equal, so those men will shut up.
Men didn't decide to start being better to women because they suddenly decided to one day. It was because of the voices of protest.

Men have rights and they have a right to talk about them and to talk about inequalities in society. You got a problem with that?

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Comments

if this thread devolves into insults as your last essay did, then the comment section will be closed.

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@JtC @JtC
I can't control the insults posted by others. If this site is soo anti-male that one can post of men's rights or criticize feminism, so be it. Not my site, not my rules.
My recent essays replies have spoken in volumes of the anti-male attitude of many of the inhabitants here.
It's sad to see but good to know.
Not you fault JTC, no hard feelings man.

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

@dennis1958
is DBAA, I saw that rule broken by several members in your last essay, and quite frankly if one more insult is thrown in that thread it will be closed also.

If the comment section is closed in this essay it won't be because of the substance of the issue, it will be because of the abuse of the rules. The alternative is blocking accounts.

My main concern, as it always is, is the health of this site. Letting threads devolve into insult fests makes us no better than most other sites, no?

If you write essays that you know is going to raise hackles, then you ride that tiger, my friend.

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@JtC
I had thought that we here might be open to self reflection of how feminism is perceived. And how that perception may be hurting the left. But, turns out we're not.
The essay on reproductive rights was intended in the same good faith, as it seems to me a huge inequality, but as you saw, it was hopeless.
And that's all ok.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them talk civilly with you.
I appreciate all you do here, like I said, no hard feelings.

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@dennis1958 @dennis1958 I would ask both you and, if he has time, JtC, to look at the comments to the first in this series of diaries.

http://caucus99percent.com/content/people-dont-hard-questions-or-how-fem...

I am proud of how this community responded to a point of view that most disagreed with in that diary. With almost no exceptions, the response was decent, civic, rational, dispassionate, self-reflective and critical-minded.

Your response in subsequent diaries was disappointing, and not because you didn't change your mind about feminism. That's all I'm gonna say about that, because anything else I say will become grist for the mill you've set up here.

I'm pretty good at talking to--and listening to--those who disagree with me--I was actually friends with a lot of conservative pro-Brexit British folks in my Twitter days; I've had plenty of fruitful conversations, in person and otherwise, with the right wing.

What I don't like is being played. And again, I'll leave it at that.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
the replies in my essays I'm afraid. There were indeed polite, critically thinking, topical commenters and there were commenters less so. Many doing as you've done in ascribing reasons for the essays to some evil intent.
That's what this means right?

What I don't like is being played.

I think I've shown remarkable restraint in replying (or not replying) to many commenters posts. You're free to see it how you choose.

I think it's time for someone to post a 'Ban Dennis JtC' essay. don't you CSTS? Be an interesting comment thread I'm thinking.
If some one is critical of feminism or looks to speak to men's rights. They don't belong here do they?

I think the left is going to keep losing for awhile.

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@dennis1958 I've never suggested banning anyone from anywhere. What I do is exit the conversation. Which is what I'm doing now.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@dennis1958 I'm starting to form the opinion that coming to this conclusion was your goal from the beginning.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

only those who responded to his last essay for all the insults, he posted many himself, sometimes editing after his post had been responded to.

The fight should be for an end to war, not for more than doubling the size of the military pool. However, I have no objection to equal treatment. For one thing, drafting women may wake a sleeping anti-war giant.

That said, I will stop. Sometimes, letting a thread sink is the best solution to whatever suspicions one may have.

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shaharazade's picture

@JtC seems to me, in all three of Dennis's essays, hostility and down right attacks on women and 'feminist's'. Now he post's another shit stirrer about women subjugating male rights.I like cc99%'s policy of not having to self censor or have to deal with the PC thought police about social issues. Having spent 10 years at dkos having garbage like this aimed at people under the guise of progressive PC 'scooling' or cultural war divide and conquer attacks I don't like seeing it here.

I can't see how this poster has any substance other then poking a stick in women's eyes. He somehow thinks feminism/women are a threat to his manly rights. His purpose to me has nothing to do with anyone's rights. It's truly offensive and insulting to me as a woman and a human being. When someone says to me over and over that feminists are trying to remake society in a way that is oppressive to men or they are are harming the left and interfering with his man rights it like waving a red flag in my face.

Fine he's allowed to post his sick sexist point of view I will try not to take the bait and skip his essays. I don't see why you would think that people who reply to hism should be polite. His reply's to anyone those of us who do address his issues are really manipulative and frankly way more insulting then those of us who are offended. Bernis Bros. in reverse. He may be 'civil' but he is insulting as hell.

He does not seem to be posting in good faith about anything other then his own sick issues by blaming of women who dare to say Ni! Playing the victim and saying to women who are already pissed off, well your comments have certainly have not changed my mind or given me any reason to change my belief that feminist's are dangerous to men. Given what's going on in this country right now to women as far as their rights go I can't really get to worked up about his pathetic threatened manly rights. Bejeezuz what a player.

He maybe civil or polite in your eyes but the rejection of his substance and the emotional reactions he gets from a lot of women and men here seem to me just what he's after. I'll go away now and just not read his 'I'm a victim' anti-feminist/women screeds disguised as real issues. I will say I do not see how a hard core misogynist mixer is good for the health of this site. Yes I do have a problem with his version of inequality that is all about his manly rights.

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gulfgal98's picture

@shaharazade Thank you, Shaz, for saying what I have been thinking but self censoring. There is no positive purpose I can see in these rants by the author except to try to stir up trouble. It is extremely insulting to this woman who had to endure systemic discrimination in pay and benefits from which I never will recover. I posted about my real life experiences on a previous essay by this author. His lack of acknowledgement of people's real life experiences as well as his other comments have led me to believe that he is not posting here in good faith. This will be my last comment on any essay by this author.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

mimi's picture

@shaharazade

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@shaharazade We should be polite--and we were--because we want to maintain a space of civil discourse. But again, I don't like seeing that civic value taken advantage of. I don't like being played, as I mentioned before.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

shaharazade's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal I have some issues with being played by the current crop of some feminist's who use women's rights to prop up political outrage and yet refuse to actually implement or advocate for any policy that offers equality to any human let alone women. I am a feminist from way back. Went to local women's consciousness raising meetings, read Simon Beauvoir and Betty Friedan and never once ran into the anti-male hated or bs that this poster is claiming that CC99% is a hot bed of.

I only replied to you as I respect the women on this site. I just see no point in being polite or even engaging with him regardless of what topic he uses to 'school' us about women who threaten him.
I have had plenty of discussions with men in RL and online about feminism or misogyny and remained civil but as I said this poster asks for it. Being polite or civil is more then not just name calling and the substance of what saying is neither civil or polite. It's arrogant, condescending and thinly disguised concern trolling that's using issues to denigrate women. Shades of the smarmy self righteous sisters of dkos.

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@shaharazade These essays are not only a poke in the eye of women. As a guy, they hit me like a knee to the nuts. It goes beyond liberal or progressive or feminist. It's understanding, empathy, and decency. People of conscience standing quietly aside while this type of narrative is promoted has given us the present world we have.

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There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

@ghotiphaze and the thought of my wife, daughters and other women having to put up with people that have this mentality is sickening.

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snoopydawg's picture

@shaharazade
Thanks for finding the words that I couldn't.

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

TheOtherMaven's picture

Clickbait headline, shit-stirring essay.

THE DRAFT ITSELF IS UNFAIR, sirrah, and NOBODY should have to register for it.

Now take your shit-stirring and shove it.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

@TheOtherMaven

Have a little respect for Johnny, the site, and the rest of the members. If you don't like the topic and can't be civil, try a different essay.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

@TheOtherMaven
the insult ball rolling, OK?

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TheOtherMaven's picture

@JtC

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

If they can't find enough volunteers to fight a the war, the war shouldn't be fought.

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If you don't know what you want, you deserve what you get.

@Terry Hutchinson
best comment on war I've seen in quite awhile.

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

riverlover's picture

It died. And since there is no draft now, why?

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

@riverlover I haven't looked into the why it didn't pass yet. Though that might prove interesting. I should take a look at that.
Thanks RL.

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

why fight the wrong battle?

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

@UntimelyRippd I care about our defenses.
Personally I think our society would be better served by mandatory service.
As it is our armed forces are all volunteers and most often of a particular bent so to speak.
Mandatory service and/or a draft would allow our armed services to more accurately reflect the populous.

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

@dennis1958

If we had a government we could trust and respect, a draft would make sense. Given the reality of what we have, no way I'm turning over me or mine to any of those crooks.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

@dkmich
yeah, can't trust government and they and theirs won't be the ones dying. It's probably always been like that though.

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

@dennis1958
I'm also opposed to maintaining an American military presence anywhere not on American territory except for active combat purposes or temporary joint training exercises.

And I'm opposed to using the National Guard anywhere outside of the US, period.

And I'm opposed to anyone under 21 years old serving in combat.

And I'm opposed to maintaining a standing army of more than about 100,000.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

snoopydawg's picture

@dennis1958
fought to defend itself?
None of the illegal wars in the Middle East or elsewhere have anything to do with defending this country or our freedoms.
In fact it is because this government thinks that it can send our military into other people's countries so that the corporations can steal their resources is why so many people want to harm this country in the first place.
Most Americans think that they were minding their business on 9/11 and poof, a group of terrorists decided to fly planes into the towers.
Just how many 9/11s has this country committed to other people's countries since it was created?

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

they do with the registrations. War zones and combat should be voluntary no matter of gender. We can all see how many children of politicians are in the middle east. No way in hell Obama's two little girls go further than Europe.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

@dkmich how does it work now? don't women have to volunteer for combat duties?
I wouldn't mind a presumption that registered drafted women would serve non-combat roles.
It's the civil penalties disparity that concerns me.

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

I am sick to death of liberals, sexism, feminism, religion, conservatives, and all the rest of the bull shit that keeps people in this country in a pissing match. I am so in favor of breaking this country into smaller countries. One each for liberals, conservatives, libertarians, Democratic Socialists, and those to busy dancing with the stars to care.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

@dkmich
'it's just they get on my nerves soo damn bad.' I'm with ya on this DK.
wish you a smile you didn't expect today.

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

These essays seem to just be designed to shock and offend people, and the discussions don't lead anywhere constructive, given that. Lots of other issues to spend our time on, and more positive ways to discuss gender relations.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

for the draft.

If taxation without representation is tyranny, what is a draft without representation?

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
I was too young and now too old to register and I'm not sure exactly what the are rules for registering.
The law is that you register at 18 isn't it?
at 18 you can vote.

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@dennis1958 I thought we were talking about what we believed should happen, not what currently exists.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@dennis1958 the FACT that you are not even certain of what you're saying is happening makes your argument one of bad faith in reality. You don't even KNOW these things and yet you feel compelled to school the rest of us on them?

As for one other point you made - how you want only replies related to our current state of being and not the history. One of the biggest problems in America is our refusal to acknowledge our own history in an honest manner. How on earth can you pretend to understand the reasons for something if you don't know it's history? So in essence, you're guilty of making bad faith "arguments" which in reality you only want to use to stir up some outrage.

This site is pretty open to all who post here, but the one thing it does seem to demand is honesty and backing up one's positions when making an argument. You're not accomplishing either here, period.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

mimi's picture

you want us women in the military? Did you know that we are execellent sharpshooters? So good, I would be afraid of my sisters, you know. Did you serve with them in the military? My son has. You might need them one day. Think twice before stirring the pot and make it boiling over.

And thanks to JtC for his warning shots in the air. Nobody likes to get killed by 'friendly fire', if your shots can count as 'friendly' that is.

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@mimi
female snipers?

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

mimi's picture

@dennis1958
You have also to immediately hand my posts and comments over the NSA, FBi, CIA. Female terrarists are hiding under c99p's beds here, didn't you know?

plonk.

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@mimi To be honest, combat is just one more area women are so much better than men. As you say, they tend to be better markspersons. They can carry a higher percentage of body weight, for longer, and tiring less. They're better at planning and organizing and less prone to panic in crisis and under extended stress.
Not that I'm for women in combat. Not that I'm for men in combat. Not that I'm for the draft. Not that I'm for the military in other countries.
Let the profiteers fund their own damn wars. I'm tired of paying out the nose for them to pad their portfolios by killing women and children. De Voss can hook them up with their own personal army.

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There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

mimi's picture

@ghotiphaze
women's physical and organizational capabilities in the military,, but I prefer the direct democratic approach of letting the population decide in how far women should be mandated to participate in the armed forces of their country.

I like the Swiss model, in which men all have to serve and women can volunteer to do the same.

Legal questions and public opinion
Sibilla Bondolfi wrote her law school dissertation on the topic of conscription for women and concluded that from a legal standpoint, requiring conscription only for men goes against the ban on discrimination in the Swiss Constitution.

Female conscription was never an issue under serious consideration in Switzerland,” Bondolfi says. “And today it is quite remarkable that no one has really seriously taken it on, neither on a political nor a legal level, although it’s quite clear that there is a legal inequality taking place between the genders.”

But in a direct democracy, everything comes down to public opinion. Tibor Szvircsev Tresch is a military sociologist at the military academy at the Swiss federal technology institute ETH Zurich, where he also teaches. He conducts an annual study looking at the public’s thoughts on the military, which he says indicate that support for female conscription has only been around 30% for a long time – a trend that’s continued in 2015.
...
And, the percentage of people who want to keep the conscription system as it is – required only for men and only for the military – has climbed by more than 10% since 2013, when it stood at 48%.
...
“People tend to think women should have the chance to go into the armed forces but on a voluntary basis. Conscription for women is looked at critically among the general public.

I think military service should be mandatory for a year and a half for women and men. If a conventional war breaks out, women should not serve in combat, imo. Simply based on the fact that in wwI and wwII so many men died that if the same number of women would have died as well, a population can be completely wiped out for generations.

I don't know if these days the conventional wars still are causing the same number of deaths among men alone. With all those un-manned drones and un-manned threats of nuclear missiles been potentially shot across globes, I think it's anyhow surreal to think that it makes a difference.

I haven't thought much about it. In general, if there were a direct vote by the population to decide if women should serve mandatorily the same way as men have to serve, the vote would go against it. One man can produce a lot of pregnancies, one woman can produce only one pregnancy. So I think it's crucial that more women survive a war than men. Therefore I would vote against mandatory service for women in combat environments.

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Bisbonian's picture

@mimi and women can volunteer to do the same."

Of course you do.

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

mimi's picture

@Bisbonian
how I came to that conclusion. So, what is preferable in your mind? If you have a mandatory service for all, men and women equally, you have to have to pay for 'not wanting to serve'. As far as I remember, I have heard that men who resisted the draft in your otherwise voluntary military forces in the US during the Vietnam War, had to pay with a price for that 'privilege not to serve', like being incarcerated in prison for a while. (I remember Meteor Blades had written about this on TOP)

Germany had mandatory military service for a year to a year and a half for men. Men who didn't want to serve their time, became then "conscientious objectors". That was easily done and granted, or otherwise any medical doctor could find something wrong with your feet or some such, so that you had a 'justification' not to serve. It was so easy that you could say in general that whole shebang set-up almost resembled a 'volunteer' service. In my German extended family not one male member served their so-called mandatory military service years. Either they did a civilian service year or they were granted 'conscientious objector status' or declared 'medically unfit". So, that isn't kabuki?

With so many options to cheat out of mandatory service or drafts in a volunteer army, why pretend that I would be FOR mandatory service of women in wars that have been almost all - after wwII - wars of aggression and not of defense.

I am NOT FOR those wars and I am NOT FOR WOMEN participating in it. I am NOT against women to serve in a mandatory military service year the same as men. But when both, men and women, either sign up for that service in a volunteer army or happen to be in their mandatory military service years (like in Germany), exactly when their civilian political overlords decide they have to go to another fucking war that was not necessary to get into, they can't get out of that trap, ie of their contracts.

Yeah, I am really for getting out everybody out of that trap, not only women, but men as well, but women more than men, because of the reason I stated in my previous comment.(Population trees in wwI and wwII, pregnancy options etc.)

I think there is a constant mix-up between an attack by military forces of other countries against your own country and terror attacks (mostly suicide ones) of some fucking foreign (or even internal) idiots on your - or in - the territory of your own country. Those terror attacks are used as justification to go into a conventional war situation with foreign countries and they are then wars of aggression, not defense, because you hunt with your army after the terrorist on other countries' territories. Therein lies the problem. I don't want to have my daughter or my son be participant in that.

I think it's a mistake that Germany sends their own soldiers now to Afghanistan or Africa more or less to keep the 'Americans in a good mood' and be a nice member of the NATO and reliable ally to the US. Nobody trust those kinds of military activities anymore to be justified or helpful, just our own German civilian political overlords seem to think they can't avoid it and have to live up to their committments. May be they have, but they certainly don't have to participate in conventional war activities initiated by the US or NATO, if the majority of their populations doesn't believe it's a justified military activity, often one that does even violate international war laws, I believe.

So, somehow, I think, the military and its civilian overlords have to think up other solutions to protect their own country against FUBAR suicide terrorists. We all suffer under those attacks, no need that we all send our military overseas to foreign countries and start a mess on those territories. That's all. And I am just a dummy mom. And may be I am wrong. You tell me.

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Bisbonian's picture

@mimi The US did not have an "otherwise voluntary" military during Vietnam. It was mandatory (for men)...some got out of it, (if daddy had some pull). If it was as voluntary as you describe, so many would not have fled to Canada (and other countries.)

And, like you, I am not for the draft, or wars, at all.

But that's not relevant to the statement you made (and I quoted). I'll try again.

"I like the Swiss model, in which men all have to serve and women can volunteer to do the same."

I find that statement indefensible. I would like to discuss THAT STATEMENT, not US foreign policy, not German foreign policy with you. If you can discuss THAT STATEMENT, and defend it logically, then we can have a discussion...otherwise I will go find something more useful to do.

For instance, if I had said, "I like the Neanderthal model, in which women have to do the vacuuming, and men can volunteer to do the same", could you find an objection to that? Could you find one that could not also apply to your own statement?

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

mimi's picture

@Bisbonian @Bisbonian
is indefensible, as it is not logic to defend inequalities between men and women when it comes to mandatory military services.

I admit I have never understood how the US can have a draft and claim it has volunteer armed forces at the same time. I didn't live in the US during the Vietnam War. It looks like the US can switch then between a volunteer armed force and a mandatory one, whenever the overlords seem it is necessary and I don't believe that the voters in your electoral system have the power to prevent the overlords to enforce those switches.

If I were mean, which I don't want to be, I would say, I am not logic, privilege of women, ahem ... but I can't help but seeing that a one woman, one man, one vote would in all probability result in a rejection of mandatory mmilitary services for women IN COMBAT zones (and not necessarily in rejection of general mandatory military services).

Ok, I don't want to defend anything here. There is no culture that doesn't realize some differences between men and women in their division of labor arrangements. Of ocurse, if you want, you can say this is a cop-out excuse. Rumsfeld hinted at it the same way, calling us "Old Europe". I think that was mean. Sorry to have been "off-topic" with regards to my comparing thoughts about draft and mandatory services in US and Germany. I am not trained in debates.

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Bisbonian's picture

@mimi , women would not be forced to serve in the military...and that is the way I would vote. Ultimately, men and women are different, even if equal. I think humans have a long experience of some form of division of labor, and sometimes for good reasons. I'm sure it could use some adjustment here and there. Thank you for a sincere answer, Mimi .

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

There's only so much batshit crazy I can take.
If this is the left I want no more part of it.
Enjoy your coming election losses.
When Roe v. is overturned don't say I didn't try to warn you.
I'm white, I'm a man, if there is no place for white men in the left then screw it, I'll join the other guys.

Peace to the peaceful and the true thinkers. I wish you well.
You haters I wish you your just desserts.

Thanks JtC. it was nice to know you. Good luck in all things.

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With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU

Shahryar's picture

@dennis1958 Let me get this straight. You have some problem with women. You think it should be fine for men to walk away from the children they help create. You think men are discriminated against re: draft registration. You ....oh wait. You're gone and not reading this. Oh well. At least you stuck around to argue your point of view.

For everyone else, though, "men's rights" are similar to "white rights", which we all recognize as a way for those in power to maintain their power.

Now about Roe v Wade...what? The implication is that if we are not open to bad ideas we'll lose elections. Yet if we look at a nearby party that has lost elections we see plenty of bad ideas. This might lead one to think that bad ideas aren't a good idea!

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@Shahryar

It was about forcing women either to get abortions or to give up newborns, "adoptable" or not, for adoption. He also has a huge problem with using anything but language that denies the existence of women; and I do mean huge. http://caucus99percent.com/comment/242742#comment-242742

P.S. Remind me why you are complaining that he did not stick around?

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Shahryar's picture

@HenryAWallace and laughing

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@Shahryar

Drinks

I thought you were criticizing him for not sticking around to defend his, um, positions.

Be aware that he may return though. He posted to me that he was going to steer clear of me. I did not make the same announcement, but I did just stop posting to him, except for one post to clear up some disinformation he'd posted on a thread I had started. But, he soon began posting to me anyway.

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if all citizens between ages of, say, 18 and 60, had to give two years national service, which would include but not be limited to military service. That would of course include women. It would also include new citizens and applicants for citizenship, regardless of "traditional values".

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Mary Bennett

@Nastarana

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@HenryAWallace
1. there is a lot of necessary work for the public good which needs to be done which is not getting done.

2. All of us owe our country at least that much. I am saying two years, paid, not free, for our country and fellow citizens.

3. Shared national service would force people to communicate and cooperate across ethnic and social differences.

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Mary Bennett

Is what I think he's trying to highlight. Whether it's feminism, black lives matter, lgbt issues, gun rights, american privilege, whatever.
That said(or written), I have a few quibbles with the thesis. Lgbt groups HAD to get extreme during the initial AIDS crisis to change gov't policies. The women's movement, BLM, and other movements the same. And yet politicians do the minimum necessary to SHUT PEOPLE UP for a specific moment so they(pols) can continue their game.
But what dennis is doing, in my opinion, is to keep the division(s) in place, however (un)wittingly. Personally, I enjoy his essays BECAUSE they challenge My comfort zone and cause me to re-examine my thoughts on, apparently, controversial topics that really get people's motors revving! Look up thread if you don't believe me.
If you don't like the message, don't engage. Easier said than done, I know. But if you choose to engage, JtC has asked we do so with respect to and for each other. I believe we should honor his(JtC's) request.
d'58 doesn't present these essays so people can be comfortable, he writes these(I think) to provoke discussion. Which is what this site is about. And he does have a point about All these 'isms' dividing the left instead of finding allies and Working Together to combat the 'deep state', clintonism, turd way Or dRumph.
I've cut back on my log ins and comments precisely because the division's seem to be widening. He(d nnis1958) seems to have issues with the way feminism(in certain circles) has morphed into a man bad/woman good sort of idea. I can see that. Not All women, just like not All men.
To figure this out requires dialogue, understanding and compassion for other viewpoints. Do we really want this site to be an echo chamber? Don't we have enough of those already?
At least d'58 sticks around to respond to comments(unlike others I Won't name) and is willing to engage no matter the ideas against brought forth.
Not a defense of(he can handle that himself), just my comment on it, is all.

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Ya got to be a Spirit, cain't be no Ghost. . .

Explain Bldg #7. . . still waiting. . .

If you’ve ever wondered whether you would have complied in 1930’s Germany,
Now you know. . .
sign at protest march

@Nastarana

1. Mandatory servitude is not the right answer to civic needs. Besides, it violates at least the spirit, and maybe even the letter, of the thirteenth amendment to the Constitution.

We already have a large number of people employed by federal, state and local governments. I don't think all of them are doing as much as they should be. Get them to do the work that needs to be done. If there are truly not enough of them, hire more. The country needs more jobs, not free labor. And people working for two years without pay don't pay income taxes or put much money into the U.S. economy. Besides, even a government-operated volunteer force costs.

If we don't have enough money to do what needs doing, ask for true volunteers, take it from the military, the NSA, Homeland Security, etc., tax the rich and stop pampering the people at top levels of govt so much. I don't like paying taxes for government officials to live a thousand times better than I do. A hundred times better should suffice.

2. Tax Freedom Day is sometime in March or April, now, I think. Isn't working for months just to pay taxes enough enforced public service? And that's just an average. Those who earn more work longer just to pay income taxes. And that's not counting sales tax, excise taxes, meal taxes, hotel taxes, etc. I've paid the U.S. a boat load of taxes, even though most of it goes to activities and policies I hate. I feel guilty that Thoreau went to jail rather than pay taxes to support unjust government actions and I am too chicken to do the same. I'm not a nationalist and I don't feel I owe the USA a thing more than I have already given it, but I will still keep paying taxes. At least, the Constitution empower the government to tax us. It doesn't empower government to force us to work for it without pay and, as stated, may actually prohibit that.

3. As far as forcing people to communicate with those they might not want to communicate with, I am not sure we should. First, there is a First Amendment right to associate with whomever you please, with a flip side right of not having to associate with anyone you'd rather not associate with. Second, we have laws against discrimination and other means of enforcing intermingling in public schools, colleges, grad schools, the workplace, real estate transactions, etc.

You seem to be assuming that forced interactions would result only in good outcomes. I'd like to think so, but I am not sure it wouldn't make certain things worse.

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