Fake News - An Interview with Sam Wineburg

I have at times said in my comments that I am critical about the influence online social media has on our capacity to digest and handle the information overload with regards to its factual truth.

I found an interview in the German weekly news paper "Die Zeit" and just started to translate it. (I am stuck here and have nothing better to do - so be foregiving of my sins. I take responsibility for my lack of professional translation skills, and all my grammatical mistakes. All the errors do belong to me and the hightlighted text as well.)

Just for fun and for your information.

We Bury Ourselves in our Prejudices - American students do not recognize on the Internet whether information is true or false. A conversation with Sam Wineburg about the digital mob and the importance of better education

Interview: Anant Agarwala - 11 December 2016 THE TIME No. 51/2016, 8 December 2016 1 Comment - (SAM WINEBURG is Professor for Educational Sciences at the University of Stanford.)

DIE ZEIT: Professor Wineburg, "gloomy" are the findings of your new study, you write in your introduction. What did you find out?

Sam Wineburg: That the vast majority of young people, from twelve-year-old students to college students, can not, deplorably, distinguish whether information on the Internet is true or untrue. There is this myth that youth has a kind of "digital intelligence" because they deal with digital devices so effortless. That's not right.

ZEIT: What kind of your study's findings do you worry about?

Wineburg: Among the 12- and 13-year-olds, 80 percent could not distinguish between news and advertising. Journalism in the US is now funded by sponsored content, so-called native advertising. Advertising that camouflage itself as a journalistic text. There is "sponsored content" written above the articles - but we have found out that the vast majority of young people who spend all day online have no idea what that means.

ZEIT: Do you have an example?

Wineburg: We have presented two articles on climate change to high school students. One written by a science journalist, a second on the same website - sponsored by the oil company Shell. Almost 70 percent of the students felt the PR contribution was more credible.

ZEIT: Can you explain that?

Wineburg: People have always been credulous. What is new is that we are bombarded with information on the Internet from all sides. In order to deal with this oversupply, we revert to a few simple rules to evaluate the information. One of them is: data and statistics are good. The Shell article contains a few tables and graphs that are obviously convincing, regardless of who created them and who is interested in them.

ZEIT: Which factors influence the credibility of information?

Wineburg: In other examples of our study, pupils were deceived by photographs that supposedly portrayed what had been written, but came from other contexts. Thus, how an information is presented alive also plays a role.

ZEIT: This also applies outside the Internet!

Wineburg: Yes, but we live in a completely new reality. Before the Internet came, experts talked about their subject area, reviewed and edited journalist information. The responsibility they have accepted for us is now put on to each individual on the Internet. This has not yet happened in the history of mankind.

ZEIT: Many say the Internet is democratizing the information transfer

Wineburg: A few weeks ago it was reported that a guy spread fake news from his living room in the suburbs of Los Angeles through Facebook. More people accessed his stories than stories on USA Today, one of the largest daily newspapers in the country. A normal citizen can influence millions of people with very modest means through cleverness, deception and wiliness. The freedom of the press was extended to the little man. To every political issue arise websites, which pretend to be independent, but actually represent interests. This is dangerous.

ZEIT: In the crucial phase of the US election campaign, Fake News have reached more people through Facebook than real news. What do you conclude from it?

Wineburg: Today, the whims of the digital mobs decide whether or not something reaches many people. The lie that the Pope supports Donald Trump has been shared about a million times. What we observe on the Internet - even by the newly elected president - is that information is disseminated separated from its source. Every critical thinking person knows that information and source are always strongly connected.

ZEIT: There are also those who shout out "Luegenpresse = liar's press" and have lost confidence in the established media.

Wineburg: There will always be ideologues resistant to facts, we can not change that. Although newspapers always had a bias, some reporting with a rather leftliberal pov, the others with rather conservative pov, a basic fairness from them against those who think differently was expected. Good newspapers have always tried to show different opinions. On the Internet, on the other hand, everyone can create his own echo chamber, in which he is confirmed in his own opinion only. Facebook is tailoring our feed to our attitudes and interests, thus causing us more and more be buried in our own prejudices and bias.

ZEIT: Mark Zuckerberg has disclaimed every responsibility for the distribution of Fake News through Facebook.

Wineburg: Zuckerberg's explanation was deeply dishonest and disingenuous. He must acknowledge - as Robert Oppenheimer did after the development of the atomic bomb in the Manhattan project - that with Facebook he has created an instrument with devastating power. He must engage himself to ensure that this instrument serves peace and not destruction. Zuckerberg, too, has created a kind of bomb, he has to face that responsibility. He has to grow up.

ZEIT: What does Facebook have to do in your opinion?

Wineburg: Facebook could identify or eliminate Fake News as such. After all their crowdsourcing and their algorithms also work with pornographic material. However, business deceivers will always find a way to circumvent the security precautions. Therefore, it is not enough, if Facebook would change. The responsibility rests also on the schools. We need to think fundamentally about the competencies needed to get information about the world on the Internet. We need a drivers license for the Internet.

ZEIT: What do the schools do wrongly?

Wineburg: The moment students leave their school, they are online on Twitter or Facebook. The approach of many more advanced schools in the USA, however, is that of the ostrich: instead of recognizing that this generation informs itself quite differently, they ban the Internet at school. This creates a vulnerable generation that is not immune to the poison that is found on the Internet.

ZEIT: What do students have to learn?

Wineburg: It is about creating an awareness of the potential and dangers of the Internet. The philosopher Michael Lynch has expressed it perfectly: the Internet is the best fact-checking instrument of all times - and at the same time the best instrument for confirming one's own prejudices. What idetermines whether the Internet makes us more circumspect and more informative or more prejudiced? The only answer I can think of is education.

ZEIT: How is it supposed to be implemented?

Wineburg: We should teach young people to be committed to accuracy and diligence. For the time being, false certainties need to be broken: just because you can easily surf the Internet, you do not understand its mechanisms. Based on Heidegger, one can say that we become aware of our weaknesses only when something happens to us. First of all, we must show students how easily they can be fooled on the Internet. They need a baseline of scepticism as soon as they begin to use the Internet. But often teachers are deceived the same way, they also need help. We are developing a curriculum.

ZEIT: So not only young people use the internet too credulously?

Wineburg: I would like to say so: All of us suck - we all fail. We are talking about a global problem, regardless of status or education. A further study by us, which we publish in 2017, shows similar results for academics with doctoral degrees. With education comes arrogance. We all consider ourselves to be much smarter than we are when it comes to the Internet.

Well, I found this interview interesting coming from a Stanford professor for education. I hope you like it too and comment on what you disagree with. I am not going to comment. Too undereducated for that.

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TheOtherMaven's picture

which may or may not be the case - there has been little in the way of positive indications lately.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

mimi's picture

how come I live, am human and dumb all at the same time? There is some error in your thinking. Wink

Cheers.
Give rose

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Yellerdog's picture

50% of the people are and always will have an IQ of 100 or lower. The average is what it is and we tend to forget that.

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mimi's picture

guy who invented the IQ had an IQ above the average and was independent from desires of others to categorize people, may be unfairly, for purposes that were morally quesgtionable?

Sorry, I guess, I am losing appropriate behavior. My IQ got never tested and I am refusing to take one.

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because I don't think he's the type to give it back.

"I warned you kids; now I'm keeping it!"

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"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"

mimi's picture

because we are the online mob and therefore he will take away our toys?

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but the technology is plastic and may be used for purposes that the professor doesn't fully appreciate yet. (And besides, I like it when people in authority get to tell the youthers how to run their lives and I get to be snotty in print.)

Glad to see this; thanks for putting it up.

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"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"

mimi's picture

being a professor per se doesn't mean to me he/she has authority. People are responsible to develop educational school programs to help people growing into adulthood to handle what they will be confronted with. The study results initiated an effort to help students to "dig for truth" and protect them from being manipulated by fake news. What is wrong with that? I don't see that this kind of work equates to telling youthers how to run their lives.

Hmm, I guess I am not popular right now with my thinking ... Smile

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riverlover's picture

at understanding content and context. Ivory tower guy ( I can do that, was an Ivory Tower underpaid schlub). No credibility on the ground.

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mimi's picture

may be one should read his study report in detail to evaluate his credibility. I didn't feel like he puts down the youngsters for having a hard time to distinguish fake from non-fake news. I am confronted with a lot of people who get nervous, annoyed and agitated, because they don't know and don't understand what they read, including myself at times. He describes phenomenons that exist, is a professor and makes a living doing scientific studies. You can't blame him just for doing his job, do you?

For example right now I don't understand why you consider him an Ivory Tower guy. Underpaid?

I know that adjunct or assistant professors without tenure don't swim in money from their salaries, but they are not working class people working for corporations who constantly put them in fears of not getting a new contract or not getting full time hours and getting $10 an hour.

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WindDancer13's picture

I know that adjunct or assistant professors without tenure don't swim in money from their salaries, but they are not working class people working for corporations who constantly put them in fears of not getting a new contract or not getting full time hours and getting $10 an hour.

Having spent many years as an adjunct professor, I can tell you that most adjuncts are treated the same as "working class" people and they do have to worry about getting full time hours (which they never do) and being paid $10/hr. Most universities and colleges now act as corporations. The universities that I worked for could never guarantee one a class to teach much less more than one. Many adjuncts bounce between several universities in the same area to make a living. This is the same as the people who are having to work two or three jobs to survive. I subscribe to an adjunct listserv, and I can tell you things have not changed, and in fact are getting worse.

By the time one factors in time for class preparation, time for correcting and commenting on student work, class time and administrative paperwork, many adjuncts are making less than $10/hr, and gets worse as they may be teaching more than one subject or teaching at multiple locations. The way adjuncts are paid is generally X amount per credit hour per student. Example: The adjunct receives $50/credit x 15 students and the class is a three credit class. If the university is on a semester basis, that means $2250 for 16 weeks of work ($140/wk). Granted some classes have more students but those are usually given to tenured professors and those teachers can also opt to grab a class that was originally assigned to an adjunct if one of their classes does not fill up.

Online pays a bit better, but the amount of administrative paperwork is tremendous. It also suffers from the ability to get the number of classes needed to actually make a living without having a nervous breakdown.

Most teachers (at all levels) are grossly underpaid for the responsibility that lies on their shoulders, and there is very little to no job security.

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We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass

mimi's picture

was actually through a lady on TOP who isn't liked here much, who is an adjunct professor, complained about her pay and accused a tenured professor of having never worked on the fringes. Your explanations are very convincing.

The only thing to consider is that an adjunct professor at least has the respect for being an academic. They may be underpaid, but they are not disrespected for the work they do (other than by the folks, who don't pay them properly and give them unacceptable contracts). They usually don't have to deal with school yard bullies, who are often your fellow co-workers, when you are in the low-wage working class tier.

My niece became very young a tenured professor at a Californian university. (RIP) She was very well protected. I don't remember her complaining about her times before she became tenured. But I was not aware then that there is a huge discrepancy of being adjunct vs. tenured.

Thank you for your great comment and detailed information. I appreciate that a lot.

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WindDancer13's picture

down their patrician noses at adjuncts. Except for a few, they also resist adjuncts organizing. It took me a very long time to finally understand that I too was a professor, just one who worked part time by decree of the system. The title the universities/colleges hang on us tend to make us feel less than what we really are, and for some time I accepted that label. I am sure many do.

Your niece was quite lucky.

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We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass

mimi's picture

about her position compared to others. I couldn't tell her that truth (as I saw it) , because she was dying a very slow death (cancer was her middle name since teenage years and she survived it up to her 39th year) and in that regard she was very unlucky and also showed a lot of strength to keep her head up and fighting against the odds with a lot of grace. It also helped that the "right" tenured professor fell in love with her, but that's just my potty mouth, yet the truth (as I saw it).

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riverlover's picture

Those adjunct who travel the roads between classes. For crap pay. Ithaca College (the other one here) has a group of adjuncts in the process of unionizing. That may help. Ithaca, for all of its liberal elite-ness is a rough group for unions. Go figure.

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mimi's picture

understand your first comment better.

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WindDancer13's picture

I hope they work as a group without any one person standing out too much. I managed to get a fledgling union started at my last physical university and got the part-time professors a raise. As I was a sore thumb, the administrator told my chair that I was not to ever be offered classes again. (The chair, to be fair, did advise me--quietly--that I could sue for that, and win, but I didn't follow up on it.)

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We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass

mimi's picture

to pay for the lawyers, you need to hire, to even have a remote chance to win?

Sorry to be so "unhappy" about them fighting lawyers, if nobody can afford them. Ok, I admit, lawyers here in Germany seem to charge 1/4 for some task of what the same thing costs in the US.

I don't fight anymore. They can keep their laws and eat them too, so to speak.

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riverlover's picture

It is creeping slowly toward something? I sued a building contractor for fraud, $100K Cdn he took and never finished the deal. Step #n of he legal process was after he was served the summons to show cause or something, and left a whiney voicemail that did not count. Now my case goes to a judge, and he is not invited. !!!. Canadian law. I have already spent $3K on retainers. Court appearances cost more. I could ruin him; my feeling is 'fine'.

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mimi's picture

it sounds pretty awful and nerve wrecking. Is that a good or a bad sign that he "is not invited" to the court? 3k for a retainer of a case of such magnitude (100 000 k fraud) seems to me not as much as I would have expected.

So, do you feel Canadian law treats you better or worse compared to the US?
Sorry for asking those questions, I am not sure I understood what you were trying to say.

I was asked by someone to help paying for a lawyer to represent his interests in a probate case. Though I wished to be able to help, the lawyer asked for a 5k retainer and I knew that the case that specific heir wanted to bring to the court was unwinnable and no proofs for what he claimed could be had. In the end losing the case would have cost more than his potential inheritance would have been. I had to pay that lawyer 900 dollars for three five line emails and two one minute telephone calls to a lawyer in an international organization, I had no access to, to get some very basic information, just so as a starter. No container or anything was even talked about. Didn't even get a bill. So, tell me about lawyer's fees. I think they are a mechanism to get rid of cases they don't want to get involved with and they foresee not making money with. I wonder if there is an ethic code for lawyers similar to what physicians have, like first "Do No Harm".

I hope you win the case, riverlover.

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riverlover's picture

From gossip news of other "seasonal residents" if you piss off immigration at the border, you are only allowed to be there (landed) 6 months out of the year. They start the time clock at first entry of the year. I never pissed off border patrol. Other than the time that my husband did... I still have a ticket from Immigration/Border Patrol for being in Canada, landed by boat at a restaurant, with children onboard. Children did not get tickets. I do not recall a fine, just a warning about property seizure.

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It really gives us a perspective we would not have access to if not for your skill.

I'd agree with the above commenters about Wineburg's views. Let's just say I wasn't surprised when down a ways in the interview he decides to quote Heidegger.

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mimi's picture

To quote Heidegger shows he is exactly what? Nazi supporter? Here, this is also from Standford University. I don't dare to read through it, but if you think it's a German guy, who lived through the Nazi time period and therefore must be of dubious intent in his philosophical argumentations, is enough to make judgement about a current Stanford professor quoting Heidegger in an interview to a German newspaper, well, ... I am undereducated, but am able to read between the lines.

Not that I like Standford University. Condi Rice has found her job there. I hope she doesn't make the mistake to quote Heidegger then. Poor girl. I am so sorry that I didn't get the education I should have. Can't evaluate Heidegger. Even Niemoeller was first a national conservative and initially a supporter of Hitler. I guess a lot of Germans fell for the fake news spouting out of Nazi propaganda in the beginning. How often have people used quotes of Niemoeller here? The guy was not a purist anti-Hitler fighter either.

Sigh.

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sojourns's picture

n/t

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"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones."
John Cage

Pricknick's picture

of the youth disgusts me.

That the vast majority of young people, from twelve-year-old students to college students, can not, deplorably, distinguish whether information on the Internet is true or untrue.

With the formation of adolescent minds, comes experience. To say that the majority of those between twelve and college age (fails to mention what that age is) are all the same is ludicrous. I would love to see his studies that provide a semblance of this.

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Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.

k9disc's picture

There is "sponsored content" written above the articles - but we have found out that the vast majority of young people who spend all day online have no idea what that means.

Super scary, in fact.

I'm not sure we need a driver's license for the internet, though. I'm more about a cultural understanding. Perhaps if the Left actually started attacking "corporate sponsorship" of everything. It's really high time, and it's a terrific frame for laying out the dehumanization of our society.

Corporate Sponsored information and public policy should be an ugly thing in our collective consciousness. It's fine for iPads and Nike's and whatnot, but Boeing, Merck, ADM, Bank of DollarSigns™ -- not so much.

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“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu

fakenews's picture

Don't get rid of FakeNews - that will make FakeNews very sad. Already banned from dKos. Keep FakeNews!!!

Peace
FN

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"Democracy is technique and the ability of power not to be understood as oppressor. Capitalism is the boss and democracy is its spokesperson." Peace - FN