The Third Party Option...

I first lost my identification with the Democratic Party back in 1993-1995, when Bill Clinton successfully led the fight to get NAFTA passed. I was so depressed about it, I actually didn't vote in the 1996 election. I had just received my first lesson re: what the Professional Centrists in the Dem Party had in store for us.

Whenever I was asked about my political party affiliation, I would tell people that I was not aware of the existence of a political party in America that I identified with. And yes, I did spend some time back then exploring various third party ideas. (Anyone remember the Labor Party Advocates?)

A few months ago, when it began to look like the Clinton cabal was going to be able to succeed in their Artful Smear campaign against Sanders, I began again to entertain hopes re: the idea of a third party.

It certainly did look as though we were experiencing one of those special moments in America's political history which would allow for the dramatic ascendancy of a new political party.

Indeed, if Bernie had dramatically abandoned the Democratic Party after Hillary's theft of California and had declared that he'd be launching an independent bid, I would have embraced that effort without hesitation.

Why? Because I could see that a unique alignment of the stars in our political galaxy was in play and that there was a very good chance that he would end up the popular vote winner in a three way race.

I did, however, lose most of my enthusiasm for the possibility after I was reminded that if none of the candidates running for President is able to win a majority of the electoral college votes, the House of Representatives would determine who becomes President, and the Republicans would be the ones deciding that outcome.

But as things have now turned out, my perception of the value of supporting a third party has returned to what it was before Bernie's once-in-a-lifetime run for the Dem nomination.

To the many Friends of Bernie who have hopped on Jill Stein's bandwagon, I can only say that I will most likely not be voting for her in November, unless the polling in my state evolves in a particular way.

Because I see the risks of a President Hillary to be far greater than the risks of a President Donald, I cannot use my vote for a purpose that would be almost entirely symbolic.

I can tell you that if I was not as truly horrified of the prospect of Hillary Clinton as Commander-in-Chief as I am, I would be open to the possibility of voting for Jill, but my Fear of Hillary is deep and based on a lot of knowledge of this woman's political history.

It has given me the realization that my vote can/may actually have a tremendous amount of importance this November. It could actually end up helping to save millions of lives and trillions of taxpayer dollars if it helps in some small way to keep Hillary Clinton out of the White House.

That is how absolutely certain it is that Hillary will get us into a costly conflict with one (or more) of her enemies: Russia and China and "radical Islam."

It's not enough that Jill Stein is not evil like Trump and Clinton are. The evil that consumes Hillary Clinton is far more threatening to me and to the world than the evil that consumes Donald Trump.

As someone else quoted in this forum pointed out, Hillary Clinton is much more likely to be effective in executing her evil plans than Donald Trump is likely to be re: his evil plans.

So this is where my logic departs from that used by many of Jill Stein's fervent supporters. They tend to view both Trump and Clinton as equally evil and that is not what I see at all.

One of these evil characters has the demonstrated potential and [likely] ability to pursue her evil plans without serious political opposition. The other promises to be extremely ineffective in being able to pull off his evil plans.

If I did see C and T as equally evil, i.e., equally likely to produce the same evil outcomes, it would surely give me a strong reason to vote for Jill Stein. This, since choosing to vote for either of them would have no possibility of changing the outcome.

So that's where things stand for me. I don't have any problem voting for Jill if polling indicates that my state if going heavily for either T or C. But if it seems at all close, I will in all likelihood vote for T.

How could an enthusiastic Jill Stein supporter change my mind? By showing me why I should see H and T as equal threats on matters of war and peace.

By the way, if you haven't read it yet, you really should: How Hillary Clinton Became A Hawk

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sojourns's picture

but I share your sense of cynical or strategic voting, though I could never bring myself to actually vote for Trump.

I've never been more incorrect as to my personal prognostications concerning this election cycle. Nonetheless, I still have this a feeling that Trump's campaign is going to come to an end for any number of reasons before the election and he may either end up becoming a Russian citizen or volunteering in a soup line. Who knows? Similarly, Clinton isn't out of the woods yet either. In fact, she's just high stepping it deeper and deeper into the brush and not so fashionable wrist bracelets may become a part of her jewelry collection. Handcuffs by Prada? I would savor such an image and have it made into a big flag.

I can't disagree. I find the prospect of a Trump presidency far less dangerous than the Harpy Clinton in the White House.

Your essay was well thought out and brought to light some of my own feelings on the matter.

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"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones."
John Cage

Nonetheless, I still have this a feeling that Trump's campaign is going to come to an end for any number of reasons before the election...

Clinton's influence over the corporate media is very powerful as we have seen in recent days, but it's not over yet.

My personal hope is that a large percentage of Bernie's supporters will wake up and seize the moment to take her down. It may take some doing, but it is certainly a possibility at this point....

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James Kroeger

sojourns's picture

In an essay (I refuse to call them diaries) either yesterday or the day before, the author examined the semantics of Bernie's "acclamation announcement" at the convention, pointing out that the manner in which he worded it, left some wriggle room for the delegates to easily swing deftly back in his direction should she step down or is disqualified.

Ah. Here it is: http://caucus99percent.com/content/interesting-bernie-did-not-nominate-c...

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"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones."
John Cage

cardboardurinal's picture

would never nominate Bernie. He poses an existential threat to the way business is done and the ability of Democrats to leave office and make an asinine amount of money in the "private" or "non-profit" sector.

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sojourns's picture

however, if it does pan out that Clinton has to step down, I don't think it will be so easy for the DNC to tell Sanders to shuffle along after the email spill, etc.

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"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones."
John Cage

He is making unforced errors left and right. His thinking is muddled. He answers question A with his policy on topic B, and then bashed Obama or Hillary on topic C, B&C having nothing to do with A. He repeats himself on his talking points, mostly how great he is on a particular issue. He has gotten much worse, instead of more focused as he should be at this time. He should drop out and let the Republican Party have an emergency meeting to select a candidate.

Hillary is constantly in terror mode, ready to lash out with another bold face lie. She has positioned herself in a way that is a complete fabrication, supposedly a Progressive, against TPP, for income re-distribution, anti-Wall Street. Only thing that she hasn't claimed is that she is against war and that tells you something. She should drop out also as she has become a terrorized shell on top of a monster rotten to the core. She also probably has considerable health problems. You can see it in the way that her sexual predator husband looks at her and how her grifter daughter looks at her. Check it out, it's in their faces.

I'm close to hoping that third party candidates can win enough votes in the electoral college to throw it to the House. At this point I would welcome a Paul Ryan presidency.

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Capitalism has always been the rule of the people by the oligarchs. You only have two choices, eliminate them or restrict their power.

sojourns's picture

I especially agree as to Clinton's mental health. There are example where she appears to be experiencing mini-seizures, and she did suffer a fall some time ago. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if either one of them stroked out during the campaign. I believe it was your diary that featured one of her episodes.

Aside from that, they both seem to have congenital mental health issues.

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"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones."
John Cage

bondibox's picture

And almost all politicians answer question A with point B, it's the classic weasel answer. Maybe the stress is getting to him. I've never thought of him as one with great mental fortitude. I haven't been watching him speak for the past year so I wouldn't notice any changes, but it sounds to me like he's acting like Donald Trump. He's like an online troll in human form. In fact - epiphany time - I'll bet that's his campaign strategy. He'll evade, misquote, say obtuse stuff, say banal stuff, but he won't answer the question. Probably why he won't debate, it would make that strategy too obvious.

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“He may not have gotten the words out but the thoughts were great.”

LinQness's picture

I think he's trying to lose. After the 5th Ave comment I began to realize that his major statements are increasingly crazy. I think he likes the attention & is having fun but never actually wanted the prize.

It says more that despite his insane behavior she has a slim lead if any. She should be up 30 points.

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"Politics is not evil; politics is the human race's most magnificent achievement." Senator Tom Fries, 'Podkayne of Mars,' Robert Heinlein

forefront of trying to make it viable. If the labor movement, or part of it, can't make a living and effective third party, then how can it be done? Such is the minefield laid out against a true democracy by vested interests.

On a related note: Cornel West calls one of the two major candidates a potential neo-fascist disaster and the other a potential neo-liberal disaster. I don't think this public intellectual will be voting, much less endorsing, either the Republican or Democrat. I hope he can help bolster a third party movement.

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"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"


If the labor movement, or part of it, can't make a living and effective third party, then how can it be done? Such is the minefield laid out against a true democracy by vested interests.

This is essentially why both Bernie Sanders and I have agreed that the best path for the political Left to follow, to advance the interests of average Americans, is to fight for control of the Democratic Party.

Yes, it has been thoroughly corrupted by corporate money and by the Professional Centrists who currently dominate it, but at least it has a nominal reputation as being a political party that represents The Little Guy and many registered Democrats are naturally disposed to support the economic agenda and foreign policy of The Left.

That, IMO, is a good starting point, gives us a bit of a base from which to fight an all-out civil war within the Democratic Party for its soul.

So here's the thing: if this perception is accurate, then the single most important thing The Left can do to break down the Centrists' control of the Dem Party is to make sure that their candidate, the one they installed through nefarious means, LOSES in this election.

IMO, the fight for the Dem Party begins when Hillary loses in November. It would provide an opportunity that could scarcely be imagined a year ago.

Now that tactical goal for Bernie's Revolutionaries has value, even if T and C were equal Evil Entities, but given the much more fearsome future that a HRC Presidency would ensure, it's just an added bonus for taking her down.

I have ridiculed Donald Trump for over a year now and will continue to do so even as I plan to vote for the scumbag in November. I don't see that vote as a vote FOR evil, but as a vote AGAINST evil, all things being relative...

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James Kroeger

mimi's picture

what does it make you?

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I dunno if voting your conscience is voting for a scumbag
what does it make you?


I would suggest that it makes me a wise man, if it helps in some way to keep a malevolent force (HC) from putting millions of live in grave danger.

The ways I've described Hillary Clinton's enthusiasm for gambling with military options is not something that came to me in a dream.

She has a history that solidly establishes her as a war hawk, of the most adventuresome sort. Not made up. Not twisted to create a scary perception where none is warranted.

So if I vote strategically in a desperate effort to prevent the scariest evil politician from becoming President, that makes me a scumbag?

Really? Why twist it that way?

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James Kroeger

mimi's picture

you believe that voting for Trump will defeat Clinton. She will win no matter how you vote. You might not even have a chance to vote for Trump, because I see him quitting before November. I rather would work on making him quit than voting for him. I understand your reasons for not wanting Clinton to win. You made them clear and I agree with them. I can read and have never supported her since a long time. I don't want her to win either. How to accomplish her defeat I am not sure of. I would not vote, neither for the scumbag, nor for the warhawk. Being blamed an enabler of a Clinton Presidency doesn't do the trick anymore. I don't get manipulated that way.Those times are over.

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mimi's picture

response again and I just wonder if your strategy is wise or ... not so wise.
Sorry I got carried away to use your own words turned against you. It's not a good move, as you clearly have good intentions. You are a wordsmith, I am a brute.

I will try to do better next time and don't follow my first impulse.

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You've done it to me also. When you descend to name-calling and personal attacks if you don't agree with what someone honestly feels, that shuts down debate and commenters become guarded and wary of openness. That very behavior is why we left TOP. MagicSister was like that too and I'm glad she hasn't been commenting here lately.

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mimi's picture

might refer to. It's true that I prefer to speak my mind honestly and put the politeness second to that. But I can shut up if that is what people in the majority would prefer here.

I need a place where I can speak my mind in my way. If I upset too many people with that, I will leave. I am not a trouble maker and won't soil the atmosphere here.

I guess I am used to a little bit more "rude" in your face comments from my German folks, who usually say what they think giving the tone of how they say something less attention than what they mean to say content wise. Most are not aware of them being seen as rude and most of them are not trying to be polite for the reason of keeping the peace paying for it with the price of honesty.

I end with another rude comment, now, nevetheless.

In my mind a lot of people in the US are too polite and imo with it they cross over to me as dishonest. When they come to the point they can't take the rudeness anymore and then say what they think honestly, I am more often than not scared about their true emotions. A lot of bottled-up emotions that are ready to explode.

You know what Colbert said in one of his shows once?

That the people in Charleston are the "Nazis of Politeness". One can kill a lot of well-meaning people with that kind of politeness. Killing me softly with your words - sort of style.

Ok, I should not comment anymore. It's not going to work the way I intended it to work.

I apologize to all I have offended with my rudeness.

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mimi's picture

When you descend to name-calling and personal attacks if you don't agree with what someone honestly feels, that shuts down debate and commenters become guarded and wary of openness.

I think that I tend to lose my politer ways of saying something, when I don't believe that what someone says reflects what he/she honestly feels. There are so skillful writers and persuaders online that I very often am scared to fall for their words. The better the writer, the more eloquent his/her persuasional skills, the more nervous I get. Sorry for that. I guess that's due to my experiences in life. But I will try to guard my words better.

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OLinda's picture

is supporting Jill. Not sure if you knew or not, so there it is. Smile

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"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"

Ajamu has some interesting stuff to say but he's too unknown.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

mimi's picture

is Ajamu less controversial among the black community than Cornel West?

I am so utterly confused.

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mimi's picture

West said about Trump and Clinton and the difference between a catastrophe and a disaster. You need to read the last half of the article than the first half, but it's all good to read. Just FYI.
Cornel West: Donald Trump Would Be a Neofascist Catastrophe, Hillary Clinton a Neoliberal Disaster

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Raggedy Ann's picture

but he might have declined. She asked a friend of mine who declined.

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

West has greater name recognition, but maybe he was offered the VP spot and declined? We just don't know.

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They is the media, Clintons, and the Republicans. One or two more GOP endorsements for Hillary, and she will clearly be their candidate too. So if Hillary is the clear two party winner, and I believe she is, there is nothing to lose by voting for Stein.

The media did to Trumps exchange with the Gold Star parents what they did to the email leaks. The conversation gets twisted into the talking point of their choice, and we never hear about the content again. If I were those parents, my anger would be directed at Bush and Obama. They killed their son for oil and money.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon


They are going to destroy Trump.

Mine may be a desperate hope---that significant numbers of Bernie's supporters could ultimately be persuaded to pull the lever for T---but it's the only hope I have right now of preventing the nightmare of Hillary Clinton putting our armed forces on high alert vis-a-vis Russia.

You know it is going to happen.

If we can start to coalesce around this terrifying theme, there's a chance we can snatch her 'date with destiny' from her.

Otherwise, what hope is there?

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James Kroeger

Please read Paul Craig Roberts writing.

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mimi's picture

direct commander of Khan's son in the military. He said that nobody of his fellow soldiers working at the side of the son, knew he was a muslim. The son, Captain Humayun Khan, was killed in 2004 while being a guard, by a car bomb while guarding a base in Iraq.

12 years later his parents agreed that their son's death is used for "dirty" purposes of dishonest partisan politics.That choice the parents made, imo, is a pretty bad one.

Everything is a matter of "Dreck" in this case:
1. Clinton pulling out some muslim couple whose son was killed 12 years ago in Iraq and use them to make statements against her opponent of a sort the media would jump on to show the evil doer's lack of respect to Muslims and American war heros. Bingo. Worked perfectly well. It's what I would call "Dreck Campaign Strategies" used by Clinton.
2. Trump's response, especially the one saying the wife having been silent standing aside of her husband, because ... well... in muslim marriages the wives have no right to speak for themselves. That's the last assholery of Trump and can only make you vomit over and over.
3. Khan's parents to allow the Hillary campaign to use their son's death for political purposes. What parents would do that? Grieving parents? Parents who don't see what killed their son? Jeez.

I see "Dreck" all over the place. No mercy with no one in this triangle of dreck politics. Makes me so mad and makes me cry.

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Yes, this exactly. The whole thing is sickening.

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O.k. When is the next meeting for the revolution?
-FuturePassed on Sunday, November 25, 2018 10:22 p.m.

dervish's picture

The result will be a Clinton Presidency, having bypassed normal legal channels.

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"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."

Phoebe Loosinhouse's picture

Bernie Sanders used his time to say, "Americans, I am sorry to tell you my campaign and supporters were the victims of numerous dirty tricks and machinations of a Party power elite that was determined to get their pre-selected candidate as the nominee of this Party. For that reason, I am no longer part of this Party, and am reverting to Independent status. I release my delegates to vote as they see fit."

Then he walks out, followed by half the delegates at the convention. That would have been awesome. Then we could have mounted a massive write-in campaign and I think millions would have been on board with that. Ah, well.

This is the craziest Presidential election ever. It really, really looks like a Trump implosion is occurring as we speak. And there's still a ceiling filled with shoes waiting to drop on Clinton. Who even knows if the two candidates will end up in November as Trump v Clinton? One or both of them may not head their tickets. Clinton against another Republican will have a completely different dynamic.

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" “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR "

is impossible. I find most of the Hillary supporters trying to goad me into that argument. "How could you vote for anyone but Hillary ? A vote 3rd party is a vote for Trump."

People don't have a clue what Trump will do or won't do, including Trump himself. He doesn't even know what's going to come out of his mouth in the next 10 seconds. I know exactly what Hillary will do, and it won't be anything good.

But let's play out the "You must vote for one of the two party candidates because we KNOW, only they can win." philosophy. So November comes and one of the two wins. Then what ? Well, it will be four years of hell followed by another election in 2020 and guess what ? The two parties will generate another shit sandwich - two giant turd candidates with a gooey bullshit middle. But we MUST vote for one because the other is so sooooooo awful.

This system, is guaranteed to be self sustaining if we all keep voting for GOP and Dem candidates. I hear it every election, Romney, McCain, Bush, Dole etc etc, it never ends. And the Dem "alternative" is just about as shitty. It's a system with a guaranteed outcome: environmental decay, concentrations of wealth, authoritarian policing and global strife.

Sorry Bernie but I'll be voting 3rd party. The best I can realistically hope for is a strong 3rd party option in 2020. But that beats the hell outta this 2 party - self perpetuating nonsense.

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"Trying to guess who is better or worse is impossible."

Believing that is what makes the Jill Stein option seem positive, with little downside.

But if you could be persuaded to imagine the current of fear that will grip this country a year from now, when Hillary starts her serious saber rattling and dares Russia to act on her historical habit of embracing extreme provocations, you might see things differently.

This is not just some 'stuff' dug up to cast her in a negative light. The alarm bells are very real and they are going off right now...

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James Kroeger

by people of color. They tell me I have the luxury of voting 3rd party and they don't believe they will survive a Trump Presidency.

I am not one that dismisses the dangers of HRC. But I don't believe anyone can pretend they know what Trump will do. His egomania is well documented. Just as I don't engage in who is worse arguments with Hillary voters, I won't engage in the same with Trump voters.

It's a fools errand and ultimately unknowable to state who will be worse, President Trump or President Clinton. I won't take any responsibility for either potential Presidency.

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Alphalop's picture

It is a complete bullshit blanket statement and is getting so overused as a counter argument for EVERYTHING that you disagree with someone on. (at least amongst fake liberals) that it lost effectiveness.

All it really serves to do is divide us into groups and pit one "race" against the other, much to the amusement of TPTB.

Call it what it really is, "Class Privilege".

I may be "white" (although, not too many decades ago my people were known as, "The Niggers of Europe") but I sure as hell don't feel privileged by it since anymore the only group it is cool to throw blanket negative descriptors on is white males.

The next person that says that to me is probably really gonna be surprised at the reaction it gets. Just because I am progressive and not Pro-War doesn't mean I am a total pacifist.

My Verbal Kung-Fu is strong, and if it pisses them off enough to go physically aggro on me so be it, at this point I really don't care anymore and would almost welcome the opportunity to knock the ignorance out of some insult spewing jackass. Smile

(Edited to add this.) So far, the ONLY people that have ever uttered that to me have been white, young and with a comfortable background at least as far as RL goes.

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"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me

TrawlerMike's picture

Some variation...

"Used to vote for the lesser evil, I also used to shit my pants. I very recently got smart enough to stop doing both things"

Excellent post.

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George Orwell was an optimist.

Alphalop's picture

during a conversation we were having at a family gathering while he was lambasting me when I told him I had left the Republican party years earlier. Smile

It vapor locked him for a second so I figured, "oh, gotta save that one." Smile

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"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me

he came from a state with few people of color!

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"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"


I have been accused of "white privilege" by people of color.


You too? (smile)

I'm of the mind that it is possible to arrive at some reasonably sound judgments re: the comparative potential that H and T have to carry out their evil intent.

From an essay I wrote previously:

The scariest things Trump has proposed---the Wall, deportations, bans on Muslims, going after black people---will never occur because they require new legislation that will have to overcome the strong opposition of not only Democrats, but also lots of Republicans and the corporate media (which does not support his racist appeals).

They were positions that helped him get nominated (since nearly all of the politically active racists in this country have been in the Republican party for quite a while now) but on a national level, he'll find that he can't muster up the support he needs to get his crazy ideas enacted into law. Because of his massive ego, he'll begin to modify his rhetoric to optimize his popularity.

But the scariest things Hillary has demonstrated an appetite for will not require the consent of Congress at all. She'll quickly jump at the chance to send American troops into overseas conflicts and try to give the generals all the military hardware they want to expand America's policeman role on the world stage.

It is true that we don't know how effective Trump will be at pushing his evil plans forward, but it looks like he's just not going to be able to overcome the opposition that awaits him if he tries to generate some momentum for his proposals. His kind of evil I think we can handle with a vociferous opposition. But Hillary calling the shots on aircraft carrier deployments? OMG...

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James Kroeger

mimi's picture

white person with white privileges. I can take that. I wait for him to see himself and he eventually does. I have privileges I even couldn't help him being able to inherit. I wished I could have, but people just don't want it to happen. It's an ugly, ugly world out there.

I think people, who feel upset of being called "white privileged" should be careful and consider, who says it, when it is said, why it was said. If you, as a recipient of that blame or accusation, feel upset, look at the person, who made the accusation, then imagine you would live in that person's skin and life experience, then take a deep breath and use your humanity and brain to take the accusation in context.

For underprivileged, exploited blacks the argument of white privilege is the easiest to be seduced to use. If white people use the same argument, forget it.
They are playing dirty manipulations with your mind. Like a lot of people on TOP have done for years. See, I have my problems with some white folks... Smile

White privilege has been historically a fact and still is. It's a privilege you are born into and to blame someone into what he is born fails to have any effect.
I don't blame my son for being black and underprivileged. He was born into that situation and we both were not able to change it. End of story, end of one of the most destructive arguments.

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bondibox's picture

And smacked TOP around a bit on twitter:

According to the @dailykos it's white privilege to want free college for everyone #worldaccordingtodkos

According to the @dailykos it's white privilege to want a $15 min wage #worldaccordingtodkos

According to the @dailykos it's white privilege to be against imperialist foreign policy #worldaccordingtodkos

According to the @dailykos it's white privilege to be against #fracking #worldaccordingtodkos

Finally, my favorite:

According to the @dailykos it's white privilege to tax #wallstreet traders #worldaccordingtodkos

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“He may not have gotten the words out but the thoughts were great.”

Dhyerwolf's picture

that their American Privilege could possibly ending leading to the death of the Human race. It's absurd.

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Alphalop's picture

2 party.jpg

It's a pretty obvious sign that things are indeed in the shitter.

I am leaning towards Stein or maybe Johnson if he looks like he can pull it off but if Florida is close I will probably vote Trump just to block the warhawk.

I don't believe in gods or devils but I do believe in evil, and Clinton has a long history of being it's spokesperson.

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"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me

Republican as his VP, and his campaign is being advised by GOP consultants -- at least those who want to be associated with his campaign.

I think the most likely scenario is that Trump will outsource a large part of his work to his VP. It's entirely possible he would face gridlock from Dems and the GOP. But the guy is also a complete Con. Clinton is another awful choice for her own set of reasons.

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reflectionsv37's picture

A vote for Jill Stein is 1 vote against Clinton. A vote for Trump is 2 votes against her. I truly hope I can vote for Jill
But like you say, if it's close, I'll cast 2 votes against. I'll do whatever I can to keep Hillary away from the presidency.

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“Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.”
George W. Bush

Trump is less dangerous than the Clintons ( both of them)

Think a third party vote in this election is symbolic, personally feel we owe it to the rest of the world to try to prevent Clintons keeping control of the Democratic party, and keeping the warmongers out of the White House. Believe only remote chance of reforming Democratic party from within is to defeat the Clintons.

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Scrappadoo's picture

For me, the scariest thing about a Trump presidency is Pence. I was almost ready to seriously consider voting for that P.O.S. just to watch it burn, but when he chose Pence, a proven women-hating, miscarriage-punishing, forced-birther to be his "VP on steroids", I had to abandon plan. I wouldn't even be able to fantasize about the prospect of a newly released Hinkley.

I'm going with the 2020 long game and vote for Jill.

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"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"

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In the unlikely event that Trump is a plant, it would make sense to have Trump pick Pence as his VP.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

lunachickie's picture

I think the "planted/ringer" theory was firmed up for me when Trump made that VP choice, as well. That was when I read an article from some official spinmeister (think it was WaPo) noting that "Paul Ryan allegedly engineered the deal to get Pence chosen".

And why wouldn't Ryan engineer a Tea Party hack into the VP spot? Very astute on his part, the little prick. Totally believable, from start to finish.

So if we're even in the ballpark with all this speculating, do you suppose that Trump can "take back his VP choice" and pick someone else, and then quit?

PS anyone who thinks his support is waning fast wasn't in Daytona Beach today. Trump showed up at the Ocean Center along with 8000 other people (or so says the local fish wrapper). It was broadcast live online by the same source, and it seemed to go over quite well.

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Let's see:
Hill + (Bill) = WWlll, TPP, Misery, Plutocracy, (Bimbo Eruptions)
Trump = Republican Party (in the) Dumpster
Jill = Third Party Viability

The winning strategy, as others have noted here recently, might be to vote Trump in purple states and Jill in Red and Blue states. Hill and Bill must not get their sticky fingers back in the White House. Once there, they'll NEVER leave. In fact, I'd make book that after eight years, Chelsea becomes prez, after a stint as the junior senator from New York. By then, ALL the voting machines will be hackable.

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bondibox's picture

But not as much as Barbara Bush the younger. She's competent and center-right. Dangerous.

EDIT: Wait, did I say 'not as much'? Change that to 'almost as much.'

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“He may not have gotten the words out but the thoughts were great.”

hellinahandcart's picture

in the White House. Hillary has stated, without hesitation or apology, that "Bill will have influence on policy." In fact, it was one of her conditions for a V.P.-- that the nominated VP would understand that Bill had influence on policy. In other words, the VP would defer to Bill.
Having lived through Bill's two terms, it makes me hair pulling, screaming-mimi mad to think about the Clintons back in the White House.
I think it's beyond awesome that so many millions of young people have researched the policies of the Clinton years and are pushing back. But I think there's nothing like the inherent nausea felt by those of us who were there.

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bondibox's picture

I agree with you about the alignment of stars and Bernie's ability to outdo the other two in a three way race. States like Utah would go for Bernie, as red as it is it won't go for Trump. Hillary wouldn't have enough of a pull to combat a strong showing by Bernie.

So if it came down to a vote in the House (and that's the House's 50 state delegations, split 14-33-3) would they vote for Trump? It's possible they wouldn't. The GOP leadership has been trying to sabotage his campaign. And they sure as shit won't be voting for Hillary. I really think it's most likely that they'll pick Bernie. As with the Utah example, he has wide appeal even among conservatives, and the House members can tell their constituents that he's an effective legislator who knows how to cross the aisle and reach consensus. It might sell.

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“He may not have gotten the words out but the thoughts were great.”

Big Al's picture

U.S. imperialism. There's a story out now about how Trump was asking in a foreign policy meeting why he couldn't just "use nukes". I remember early on one of his primary advisors went on TV and said "what's the use of having nuclear weapons if we don't use them?" He's surrounded himself with people completely on board with the false narratives about the war OF terror. His rhetoric about Muslims and torture show he has bought in to the neverending war. His remarks about NATO, while on the surface sounding like a less aggressive approach, indicate his main problem is how much money the U.S. spends compared to other NATO countries, the same thing the neocons are focusing on to maintain U.S. and NATO imperialism.
The agenda of the U.S. is to remain the world's sole superpower and to maintain hegemony (full spectrum dominance) over the planet. I don't see how Trump would challenge that.
Trump is an imbalanced sociopath who doesn't know shit and will bend with the wind when push comes to shove. He's all about capitalism and at this stage of global capitalism, it is the highest form of imperialism. It's hard to say he's as bad as Clinton, she sets the bar too high. But it won't make much difference imo, whether its her or him.
The American people should reject both candidates one way or another.

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mimi's picture

Trump is an imbalanced sociopath who doesn't know shit and will bend with the wind when push comes to shove. He's all about capitalism and at this stage of global capitalism, it is the highest form of imperialism. It's hard to say he's as bad as Clinton, she sets the bar too high. But it won't make much difference imo, whether its her or him.

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bondibox's picture

Wouldn't Trump get briefed that the GWoT was manufactured by the U.S. Government as a pretext for a more calculated imperialism? Poor Trump still thinks we have to react to ISIS in a broad handed way. We don't want to wipe any country off the face of the map. Just strategic locations that prevent us from taking them over. Clinton knows this. In fact, the Clintons had to give their approval for this sham because they could have spilled the whole can of beans. That's why Hillary is so entitled to this gig. The corporate masters owe her.

Fringe websites are running with the story that an ISIS weapons cache was found with U.S. made mortars. These sites are notoriously unreliable but isn't that where you read this stuff first?

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“He may not have gotten the words out but the thoughts were great.”

be a much worse president than Clinton. Possibly even catastrophic. It is nearly impossible to predict what Trump might do, because he is simultaneously arrogant, ignorant, and irrational. He can be insightful one moment, and utterly delusional the next. Exactly as you say, he "is an imbalanced sociopath who doesn't know shit and will bend with the wind when push comes to shove". And I strongly suspect that the winds he'd be likely to bend to, would be neither favorable nor gentle.

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native


His remarks about NATO, while on the surface sounding like a less aggressive approach, indicate his main problem is how much money the U.S. spends compared to other NATO countries...

The fact that he has not sought to depict Putin as a threatening tyrant is significant. The man likes to think of himself as a deal maker and he has not been persuaded by the groupthink NATO apologists both here and in Europe that presenting a united front is the most important thing to protect American (and European) 'security.'

That bit of information makes his perceptions more textured, when compared to Clinton's, instead of entirely reliant on the Pentagon's analysis of our 'enemies.'

Add to that his perception of himself as some kind of outside-of-the-box Decider who can 'do business' with Putin is also quite encouraging, when compared to Hillary's standard cold warrior views.

The people who get us into wars are the people who habitually talk tough re: "America's enemies" (as the war hawks perceive them), not the ego-maniacal narcissists who ultimately want to be loved by the public.

That's my perception...

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James Kroeger

on installing the neoliberal regime in the global south. Anything to move to the breakup of NATO - a cold war relic - should be encouraged. And, if Trump thinks he can make a deal with Russia, so much the better. Putin will be wary partly because Bill Clinton promised NATO would not organize up to Russia's borders. Israel also promised to pursue a two state solution. Both are sad, tragic, jokes.

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"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"

Cassiodorus's picture

should not, btw, call it the "third party option."

For us it should be called "realignment."

Here's another frontpaged diary about realignment, which explains in brief the historic context of realignment.

For the record, I would have to agree with you insofar as you are arguing that there's no point in voting only once against the greater evil (whether that be Clinton or Trump) when you can vote twice. The problem for me, then, is that I am not motivated merely to cast a vote against the greater evil.

Lesser-evil voting is what brought us this year's choice. What we need is realignment, and a new set of choices. The more likely realignment option, as I see it, is that the Republican Party will die and the Democratic Party will in all likelihood become a right-wing uniparty of sorts. The Republican elites will no doubt jump ship and join the Democrats, who in all likelihood will impose the "Virginia model" (see e.g. Jim Webb, Tim Kaine) upon the rest of the Democratic Parties. The Republican Party will become a regional party as a result, somewhat mirroring the American Independent Party of 1968.

The only thing missing from such a formulation is a party to represent the working class. The Green Party, despite its faults, is the closest thing we've got at this point. So I'm voting Green.

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“When there's no fight over programme, the election becomes a casting exercise. Trump's win is the unstoppable consequence of this situation.” - Jean-Luc Melanchon

much of which is no fault of the party but of outfits like the Sierra Club and other eco-groups.

Pennslyvania: John Quigley was Secretary of Environmental Protection. Quigley's agency strengthened oil drilling rules; barred outdoor waste pits; and drilling near streams. Republican legislators passed a bill rescinding these needed actions and environmental groups were conspicuous no-shows.

Guigley sent emails objecting to their absence: "Where the fuck were you people? Do you really think the governor is going to veto this shit with NO support?" One of the recipients leaked this email and Quigley lost his job.

The Sierra Club was in existence for maybe 100 years before it allowed its members to take part in civil disobedience.

The Green Party suffers from being identified, in part, with these bourgeois groups and this needs to be overcome and the environmental groups need to pay Black Lives Matter for lessons on effective confrontation.

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"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"

lines as you James, and I've also considered voting for Trump using very similar logic. The problem as I see it, is that Trump has very little chance of winning this election, no matter who we vote for. This, for a variety of reasons I don't need to go into here. A third party has even less chance than Trump. So in all likelihood HRC will be the next president, and I don't believe there's much that anyone can do to prevent it.

That being the case (IMO) voting for Stein would at least register a protest against both main Parties and their abominable candidates. Distaste for both Trump and Clinton is a widely shared sentiment now, all across the nation. And most, if not all effective progressive action will be originating from outside the Dem Party, after Clinton is inaugurated. The sooner we can start building coalitions there, the better -- and Jill Stein would surely have a role in that "movement", whatever it shapes up to be.

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native


The problem as I see it, is that Trump has very little chance of winning this election, no matter who we vote for.


He may very well lose to Hillary, thanks in no small part to the votes of war hawk Republicans, but I'm not ready to abandon all hope just now.

The horrifying prospect of a President Hillary Clinton is so great, I absolutely must cling to the [perhaps desperate] hope that we former Bernie supporters can stop her evil plan.

It's a big enough fear that it has made me a single-issue voter at this point.

If Bernie's strongest peace-loving supporters would begin to blow up this concern in a big way, there would be a chance of bringing her down.

As someone (above) pointed out, a vote for Jill Stein in the solidly Red and Blue states makes sense, but in the purple swing states, it's gotta be a vote to stop Hillary, IMO.

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James Kroeger

and it's true that Trump does have an outside chance of winning. What with volatile times and unforeseen circumstances, who knows? If it looks close come November, I just might change my mind and vote for him. If I did that though, It would have to be over the voice of my own conscience, screaming to high heaven.

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native


It would have to be over the voice of my own conscience, screaming to high heaven.

I so identify with what you are saying here. (smiling, shaking head)

It's like the last thing you would ever do, if you had not suddenlly become scared to death of it not happening (!)

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James Kroeger

Hillary supporters and others really are afraid of Trump more than Hillary, and Trump supporters are scared of Hillary. I just can't play this game of extortion anymore. I'm sick of it. That's why I'm voting for Jill even though its already rigged for Hillary.

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Beware the bullshit factories.


Hillary supporters and others really are afraid of Trump more than Hillary, and Trump supporters are scared of Hillary. I just can't play this game of extortion anymore. I'm sick of it.

I understand this sentiment, but it happens to be true that ALL national elections between the Democrats and the Republicans have ALWAYS been about competing sets of fears.

Understand that even when a message is positive, it only begins to gain traction politically when its supporters begin to fear a lost opportunity.

Marketers, for example, understand that the most powerful motivator---to get people to get in the car and go buy---is fear. That is why they loudly proclaim "Two days only! Limited supply!"

Politicians understand this as well. If you want to get out the vote, you've got to get casual voters to get emotional about it.

Because we're talking about human nature here, there's not much chance that this will change any time soon.

People hate negative campaigning, but they respond to it anyway. That's why it will never go away.

You've got to be willing to do political battle on those terms if you want to carve out a better world in your lifetime, unfortunately.

If your opponents are conjuring up irrational fears of your worthy agenda, you have no choice but to respond by pointing out what voters have to fear from your opponents, or The Good will surely lose to the evil manipulators...

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James Kroeger

mhagle's picture

. . . makes it impossible for me to even remotely consider voting for HRC. I cannot vote for the Donald either.

Why? The climate crisis.

I don't know that much about Jill's running mate yet. Am disappointed it was not Nina.

It really feels like so much is up in the air still, especially after reading this essay and all of the interesting comments.

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Marilyn

"Make dirt, not war." eyo

Leema's picture

Given that we do not have an equal playing field when media and money both ignore third parties...and the established players don't vote for campaign finance reform....and given that a party can get government funding if they reach a certain percentage of the vote...a vote for the Green Party candidate has the potential to make them more competitive going forward.

Then there is global warming: a more urgent issue than any other before us if we hope to avoid extinction. And we need to act now. Who ya gonna call? : fracking lady? Dumbo? or the only candidate actually addressing life on earth as the crisis it is? Jill Stein.

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When wealth rules, democracy dies.

Zinman's picture

Look what Bernie's campaign did for the Democratic Party platform: it is far more progressive than it would have been without his efforts. Imagine the Green Party with enough registered members to get matching Federal funds and a seat at the table of public political discourse. The likely course of the Democratic Party would be to adopt some of the Green platform to use as a sales technique during the General Election. They could make the argument that they were better than the Republicans on Green Party issues, and try to peel off Green voters by pointing out quite correctly, that the Republicans were worse, and the Democrats might only get a "half a loaf" for the Greens, but that would be better than no loaf at all if the Republicans were to win.

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Be a Friend of the Earth, cherish it and protect it.

Hawkfish's picture

We have the opportunity now to fundraise like Bernie and we need to do it. This is the year to go for broke. As Cassiodorus keeps pointing out, we have a good shot at a major party realignment this year. If it fails, we will have another generation to build the party incrementally.

(Switching to "we" because I finally got a WA Greens registration email this morning and used it!)

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We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg

Zinman's picture

The idea is to raise as much as possible in 24 hours to make a "boom" in the media. Here is a section of the email she just sent to Green members:

"Let's prove the strength of Jill's financial support by donating, and encouraging everyone we know to contribute as much as possible in 24 hours... 12 Noon August 5 to 12 Noon August 6, the day Jill will formally accept the Green Party Nomination in Houston. And here’s the best part--qualifying donations will be MATCHED 1:1 by federal matching funds, up to the first $250 you give!"

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gulfgal98's picture

I am beginning to think we are watching a made for tv "reality" show. I cannot help but think that Trump made a deal with the ultimate deal maker himself Bill Clinton. This allows Trump to play himself in the political arena and it is intended to make probably the most flawed candidate to ever run, Hillary Clinton, look good by contrast. The problem is that Trump keeps polling too close to Clinton. So what does Trump do? He doubles down on his outlandish statements. He is like a boxer who is supposed to take a dive, but it is not working yet. So then he triples down.

And I believe this is the real reason the Republicans are starting to get nervous. The Republican establishment has no problem with Hillary getting elected because they know she supports most of their agenda, particularly the economic one. But if it starts to look like Trump may just pull this off, then they need to parachute in an establishment candidate like Kasich or even Jeb!

I simply do not believe that Trump really wants to win. He is just liking being in the spot light and doing what he does best, being outrageous.

I may be way off, but this is the only explanation that makes sense to me. No one, not even Donald Trump is this unaware and he really has no campaign established either. So the reality Tv angle is the only thing that makes sense to me.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Phoebe Loosinhouse's picture

by no less than Joe Scarborough himself this morning. I almost fell over. He said Trump consulted with Bill before running and Bill encouraged him. Then he said specifically to Trump supporters that they were being played by a Democrat (Trump!).

There is another way to look at the call between Trump and Clinton (if it occurred). Remember when W called up Harry Reid and asked him what he thought of the idea of Harriet Miers for the Supreme Court? And Reid said very craftily, "Sure, W. That's a great idea!" knowing full well it would turn into an incredible shitstorm. Could Bill be that devious? I think the answer is obvious.

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" “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR "

gulfgal98's picture

is that Trump has no real campaign organization. Then when he started doubling down on outrageousness, then it seemed to be a logical idea. It is like he is trying to throw the election.

I did not know Joe Scarborough had floated that idea this morning. But I do believe that Trump was talked into entering to divert attention away from Hillary's negatives, knowing that if she survived the primary, she probably would skate in the general. I do not believe anyone including Bill, Trump, or the Republican party thought he would poll as well as he has. That is also why the Republicans did not contest his nomination. Now the establishment of both parties is worried that Trump might just get elected.

And what does Trump get out of this? He gets an awful lot of free publicity for his brand and that is what Trump is all about.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

and not duped into being one, and if all this was an act, I would have to hand it to him. Being Hillary's foil every day for a year would be the toughest, most abusive acting job I could think of.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

kharma's picture

but I have decided Trump's ego is way bigger than taking a dive. The freaking guy can't even brush off a slight insult I know he is going to explode when he loses...if he does. So I can't imagine him taking a fall for the Clintons-or for anyone for that matter-but I don't think he ever thought he would be the nominee when he started playing with the idea.

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There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.. This...is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.--John Adams

Hawkfish's picture

I bet Bill stroked his ego and made him think he could actually win.

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We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg

gulfgal98's picture

Trump is an egomaniac, but I doubt that he really wants to have the job of President.

It will be interesting to see if he makes it to the actual election. I am thinking maybe not.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

earthling1's picture

Both Clinton and Trump backout, and we are left with two Evangelicals.

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Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.

EyeRound's picture

for the far-right wing to pass its legislative agenda. Here's a rundownof the agenda for the House Freedom Caucus, which replaces the Tea Party Caucus:

A quick review of the tentative planks of the new contract illustrates the dilemma that some Republicans might face in having to decide whether or not to sign the contract:
•Overhauling Social Security, Medicare and other politically sensitive entitlement programs
•Repealing the estate tax
•Trying once again to repeal the Affordable Care Act
•Further boosting defense spending so that the Pentagon has sufficient funding to wage two major wars in different parts of the world without having to make offsetting cuts elsewhere
•Cutting U.S. dependency on foreign oil by 20 percent by 2025
•Closing corporate tax loopholes
•Cutting the top corporate tax rate from 35 percent to 20 percent
•Slashing federal regulations and red tape by 20 percent
•Balancing the budget
•Denying federal funding to Planned Parenthood and other organizations involved with performing abortions.

These people have enough clout to knock Boehner out of the game. They think Ryan is a bit too pinko.

I don't mean to be scare-mongering, but let's admit how many Americans are behind this agenda. If Trump, Ryan, or just about any other Repub takes the WH, Bernie is going to have his hands full in what will likely be hopeless efforts to avert this train wreck.

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someone else has pointed out that a Trump presidency might prod Congress to reign in the President's war powers and surveillance authority.

The problem that I have is his selection of Pence. His talk about bringing Carl Icahn into his administration, his cultivation of Rick Perry, Chris Christie, Sarah Palin, Ben Carson, Gingrich and others doesn't exactly signal any kind of progressive appeal.

Meanwhile Clinton is unveiling a new billionaire validator every day from now until November. What a joke.

The major party choices in this election are equally depressing. Even though Trump isn't a half-way credible messenger, unlike Clinton, he has at least pretended to engage in outreach to Sanders supporters. Clinton isn't even trying. It's clear that her campaign is all in with the Jeb Bush "moderate" Republican strategy. They have taken Sanders 13+ million votes for granted and have the audacity to whine about how Sanders supporters still "owe" Clinton votes.

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elenacarlena's picture

He does not understand why we don't use nukes. And as President, in 30 minutes he can launch them and no one is positioned to stop him. Better than Hill? Hill's terrible, but as difficult as it is to go any lower, he may be worse:

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1vlMUfR_Wc width:500]

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This ad is about her first political campaign:

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDTBnsqxZ3k]

Fuck this 2 party bullshit

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Beware the bullshit factories.

elenacarlena's picture

Vote for what you'd like to see, not against what you fear.

Jill for prez.png

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I'm sorry to imply that you were saying vote for Hillary. I didn't mean to, I was just implying how much fear is a part of our messed up 2 party system which has to come to an end.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

elenacarlena's picture

change my mind again!

Your tone wasn't derisive, just forceful. Unlike Certain Other Sites, where sometimes it seems like 90% of them are dismissive and/or derisive while the other 90% sycophantically suck up to their leader.

I don't do sucking up well. Fortunately, I don't think that's what JtC is looking for.

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