The Troll's Message
Lunachickie wrote a good essay on this topic yesterday. I am going to add to it a bit.
There are intentional trolls, there are paid trolls, and there are those of us who unwittingly write a troll message. Probably all of us who write essays and comments write a tiny troll message at some point - even if we don't mean to do it.
The troll message is always the same. You should just quit. That is always at the back of it, especially the troll messages directed at progressive politics. "Everything is terrible. It's hopeless . . . hopeless . . . hopeless."
Sometimes the "you should just quit" message is dressed as a chameleon and instead gets you to quit or delay action, by distracting you. The same goal is achieved. You are not taking action because you are distracted. This is accomplished by comments that point out a trivial aspect of an important essay, in order to lead you away from the message. "Hey . . hey there . . . hey . . . look over here . . . look over here . . . "
If we have those two things in mind as we read, maybe we can have more clarity when judging intent.
I also always look at simply "how does this make me feel?" That's what first woke me up to the mess at DK. One day I realized that reading all that shit made me depressed. That was well before the March 15th deal, so that was simply a confirmation. DK was loaded with "you should just quit" and "look over here". Ugh!
Hopefully some of you comment with other tools you personally use to achieve clarity.
P.S. Another thought about paid trolls . . . they are probably folks just trying to feed their kids. That makes it even more sad.

Comments
Sure there are paid trolls - just an example here.
Just Google "Hasbara megaphone internet tools" and you will see how organized internet trolls are. They are paid by governments and NGO's to disrupt internet blogs in order to get their propaganda across to the masses. and here are the methods they use:
Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation Trolls:
1. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. Regardless of what you know, don’t discuss it — especially if you are a public figure, news anchor, etc. If it’s not reported, it didn’t happen, and you never have to deal with the issues.
2. Become incredulous and indignant. Avoid discussing key issues and instead focus on side issues which can be used show the topic as being critical of some otherwise sacrosanct group or theme. This is also known as the “How dare you!” gambit.
3. Create rumor mongers. Avoid discussing issues by describing all charges, regardless of venue or evidence, as mere rumors and wild accusations. Other derogatory terms mutually exclusive of truth may work as well. This method works especially well with a silent press, because the only way the public can learn of the facts are through such “arguable rumors”. If you can associate the material with the Internet, use this fact to certify it a “wild rumor” which can have no basis in fact.
4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent’s argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.
5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary attack the messenger ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as “kooks”, “right-wing”, “liberal”, “left-wing”, “terrorists”, “conspiracy buffs”, “radicals”, “militia”, “racists”, “religious fanatics”, “sexual deviates”, and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.
6. Hit and Run. In any public forum, make a brief attack of your opponent or the opponent position and then scamper off before an answer can be fielded, or simply ignore any answer. This works extremely well in Internet and letters-to-the-editor environments where a steady stream of new identities can be called upon without having to explain criticism reasoning — simply make an accusation or other attack, never discussing issues, and never answering any subsequent response, for that would dignify the opponent’s viewpoint.
7. Question motives. Twist or amplify any fact which could so taken to imply that the opponent operates out of a hidden personal agenda or other bias. This avoids discussing issues and forces the accuser on the defensive.
8. Invoke authority. Claim for yourself or associate yourself with authority and present your argument with enough “jargon” and “minutiae” to illustrate you are “one who knows”, and simply say it isn’t so without discussing issues or demonstrating concretely why or citing sources.
9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues with denial they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.
10. Associate opponent charges with old news. A derivative of the straw man usually, in any large-scale matter of high visibility, someone will make charges early on which can be or were already easily dealt with. Where it can be foreseen, have your own side raise a straw man issue and have it dealt with early on as part of the initial contingency plans. Subsequent charges, regardless of validity or new ground uncovered, can usually them be associated with the original charge and dismissed as simply being a rehash without need to address current issues — so much the better where the opponent is or was involved with the original source.
11. Establish and rely upon fall-back positions. Using a minor matter or element of the facts, take the “high road” and “confess” with candor that some innocent mistake, in hindsight, was made — but that opponents have seized on the opportunity to blow it all out of proportion and imply greater criminalities which, “just isn’t so.” Others can reinforce this on your behalf, later. Done properly, this can garner sympathy and respect for “coming clean” and “owning up” to your mistakes without addressing more serious issues.
12. Enigmas have no solution. Drawing upon the overall umbrella of events surrounding the crime and the multitude of players and events, paint the entire affair as too complex to solve. This causes those otherwise following the matter to begin to loose interest more quickly without having to address the actual issues.
13. Alice in Wonderland Logic. Avoid discussion of the issues by reasoning backwards with an apparent deductive logic in a way that forbears any actual material fact.
14. Demand complete solutions. Avoid the issues by requiring opponents to solve the crime at hand completely, a ploy which works best for items qualifying for rule 10.
15. Fit the facts to alternate conclusions. This requires creative thinking unless the crime was planned with contingency conclusions in place.
16. Vanishing evidence and witnesses. If it does not exist, it is not fact, and you won’t have to address the issue.
17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic. This works especially well with companions who can “argue” with you over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing more key issues.
18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can’t do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent. Not only will you avoid discussing the issues in the first instance, but even if their emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid the issues by then focusing on how “sensitive they are to criticism”.
19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the “play dumb” rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon). In order to completely avoid discussing issues may require you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.
20. False evidence. Whenever possible, introduce new facts or clues designed and manufactured to conflict with opponent presentations as useful tools to neutralize sensitive issues or impede resolution. This works best when the crime was designed with contingencies for the purpose, and the facts cannot be easily separated from the fabrications.
21. Call a Grand Jury, Special Prosecutor, or other empowered investigative body. Subvert the (process) to your benefit and effectively neutralize all sensitive issues without open discussion. Once convened, the evidence and testimony are required to be secret when properly handled. For instance, if you own the prosecuting attorney, it can insure a Grand Jury hears no useful evidence and that the evidence is sealed an unavailable to subsequent investigators. Once a favorable verdict (usually, this technique is applied to find the guilty innocent, but it can also be used to obtain charges when seeking to frame a victim) is achieved, the matter can be considered officially closed.
22. Manufacture a new truth. Create your own expert(s), group(s), author(s), leader(s) or influence existing ones willing to forge new ground via scientific, investigative, or social research or testimony which concludes favorably. In this way, if you must actually address issues, you can do so authoritatively.
23. Create bigger distractions. If the above does not seem to be working to distract from sensitive issues, or to prevent unwanted media coverage of unstoppable events such as trials, create bigger news stories (or treat them as such) to distract the multitudes.
24. Silence critics. If the above methods do not prevail, consider removing opponents from circulation by some definitive solution so that the need to address issues is removed entirely. This can be by their death, arrest and detention, blackmail or destruction of their character by release of blackmail information, or merely by proper intimidation with blackmail or other threats.
25. Vanish. If you are a key holder of secrets or otherwise overly illuminated and you think the heat is getting too hot, to avoid the issues, vacate the kitchen.
Sorry to take up so much bandwidth but I thought this info was important to recognize for you guys...
Peace
FN
"Democracy is technique and the ability of power not to be understood as oppressor. Capitalism is the boss and democracy is its spokesperson." Peace - FN
OMFG!!!!!
This list is obscene and I've been sucked in at TOP before I quit going there. Don't try and convince them they are off base. That's their objective - to derail and leave you feeling all sweaty with your heart beating fast. State what YOU are going to do and leave it at that.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
OMG - where is Ray Pensador?
This is exactly one of the things he published at top and got banned for....they told him he was nuts and CTs were a bannable offense.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
Yes Ray is one of my heroes... n/t
Yes Ray is one of my heroes... n/t we've spoken over the years.
"Democracy is technique and the ability of power not to be understood as oppressor. Capitalism is the boss and democracy is its spokesperson." Peace - FN
Wow . . . thanks FN
That blows me away . . . .
Marilyn
"Make dirt, not war." eyo
The Armando Playbook
AKA the Secret Dkos Terms of Service.
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
that list
is the work of H. Michael Sweeney. Who is himself a troll.
As that is so often the way of it. Those who most obsess over trolls, are so often of trollery themselves.
Contrary to the diarist's assertion, history shows that trolls are as likely to urge "let's do it!", as "you should just quit." See, for instance, COINTELPRO trolls.
Troll is a word—like progressive, fascist, neocon, etc., etc.—that has lost all meaning. In practice, "troll" basically means: "someone I stongly disagree with."
The troll fixation on this site is at best wearying, at worst repulsive. An example of the latter: the recent brainless lynch-mob assault on annieli.
I assume you are speaking of this...
essay here?
I didn't participate (I don't typically like to feed such things), but I don't see much of a 'brainless lynch mob' there, certainly not by dKos standards.
Maybe a few over-the-top comments, but most are fairly intelligent, content driven responses to a cut and paste, hit and run, pro-Hillary essay where the writer didn't bother to reply at all.
Seems fairly restrained given the circumstances.
Look, the overwhelming consensus here is that people just don't like Hillary. Sorry that annoys you, but it is what it is.
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
i haven't
liked Hillary since her husband was governor of Arkansas. So, as is always the case, your projection into what I think and feel, is exactly at odds with the truth.
The lynch-mob in that piece did not bother to determine who the author actually was. And how she works. Which is quite easy to do. Instead, it brainlessly rushed to endorse lies.
Come on...
cherry picking one comment to conflate the whole thread with a "brainless lynch mob"?
Not everybody knows everybody, and given some of the real trolls that have visited from time to time, it's natural that some are not going to recognize a given poster's 'subtleties'.
I don't actually have a problem with her baiting the group for a response (even if it is a form of faux-trolling), but then to condemn the whole group because a few took the bait is pretty disingenuous.
And admit it, you ARE annoyed aren't you?
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
no cherry-picking
Try here and here and here.
Annoyed? Not in the way you allege. Because, as I said, you always get me wrong. ; ) It does, however, annoy me, yes, when people, who allegedly have brains in their heads, rush in to burn the witch, particularly when the witch, as here, is not a witch.
High fives, hectate.
Wish I'd scrolled to your post before pecking out mine.
There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.
Gotta call BS here.
One poster said Ann was definitely a hillbot troll. And of the whole thread there were basically four positive posts. One said they searched TOP and cvcvould find no evidence supporting the hillbot accusation. Hectare reporting the same. Another person saying it brought good discussion to which Ann replied. And me pointing how there were more than enough hints to see y'all were misreading the article. But it was easier to pile on than to consider alternatives.
There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.
Arkansas was the Clinton's toe in the door...
I wonder how many government and not so government clandestine organizations regret giving the Clintons a foot in the door through the drug running escapades of the Mena Intermountain Municipal Airport. Once the federal t government condones this sort of thing and with the knowledge of the then governor I guess the Clintons owned all federal agencies from that point on... but one question is "how did they stay alive?" - I suppose Hill and Bill were the first (non cia) people to come up with the "dead man switch"...
Peace
FN
"Democracy is technique and the ability of power not to be understood as oppressor. Capitalism is the boss and democracy is its spokesperson." Peace - FN
Thank you H. Michael Sweeny
We all need to know that the "newspeak" phrases:
“activist judges”
“big government”
“Card Check”
“class warfare”
“climate change” (instead of “global warming”)
“culture of life”
“cut and run”
“death panels”
“death tax”
“Defense of Marriage Act”
“Democrat Party”
“drown it [government] in the bathtub” (anti-tax activist Grover Norquist, describing his main goal)
“energy exploration” (in place of “oil drilling”)
“enhanced interrogation”
“extraordinary rendition”
“family values”
“far Left”
“freedom”
“government-run health care”, “government-run health insurance”, or “government takeover of health care”
“Ground Zero Mosque”
“Hillarycare”
“illegal” (describing illegal immigrant)
“job creators”
“judicial activism”
“legislate from the bench”
“liberal media”
“liberty”
“Obamacare”
“partial birth abortion”
“patriot”
“peace through strength”
“playing the race card”
“power grab”
“pro-life”
“reform” (euphemism for “cut”)
“soft on crime”
“teachers’ unions”
“tort reform” (limiting personal injury and other lawsuit damages to benefit big corporations)
“trial lawyers”
“right to life”
“right to work”
“smaller government and less taxes”
“Socialist”
“soft on crime”
“States’ rights”
“tax and spend liberal”
“tax revolt”
“values voter”
“War on Terror”
All came from the great republican propagandist Frank Luntz.
When will the social minded left wing get their own Frank Luntz??????
Peace
FN
"Democracy is technique and the ability of power not to be understood as oppressor. Capitalism is the boss and democracy is its spokesperson." Peace - FN
I can't believe this is the first time I've seen this
How have I been so ignorant? Thank you for opening my eyes.
'What we are left with is an agency mandated to ensure transparency and disclosure that is actually working to keep the public in the dark' - Ann M. Ravel, former FEC member
9b Play really dumb
The trolling strategy that made me finally give it up at Newsvine was when I could tell they were intentionally misreading and misinterpreting what I'd written. It's become more prevalent at the GOS and that's one of the reasons I bailed there. It's kind of like my canary in the coal mine, because a lot of other forms of trolling aren't as easy to confirm.
“He may not have gotten the words out but the thoughts were great.”
We all filter our writing, societal agreement.
I now realize that "but" is a trigger word, with troll message likely following. So I will try not to use that word. If it bugs me, it might bug others.
No filters sounds like this: my demented 96 y/o mother now responds when I disagree by calling me stupid. She has no filters on speech now, none. I am sure that she was proud that I was the obedient smarter daughter who got a doctorate. It hurt me to the core the first time she said that to me, until I understood that her training to be polite had disappeared.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
I could be wrong, but I always thought the objector to "but"
was a troll.
The one who says "everything after the but is BS". Because almost any sentence can be turned around, so the first part is now the second part and therefore becomes BS; while the second part is now the first part and therefore becomes valid?
For example, above, "I always thought the objector to 'but' was a troll, but I could be wrong" makes just as much sense either way, doesn't it?
Without better reasons not to use "but," I'm still using.
Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.
The weather forcast gave us a good
chance of rain yesterday, but we didn't get a drop.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
TROLL! lol
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
We didn't get a drop of rain yesterday, but the weather
forecast gave us a good chance. Almost works. Change but to even though.
Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.
That dress doesn't make you look fat,
but your ass makes the dress look two sizes too small.
(ducks) FYI, never! tell your wife that.
The lie can come on either side of the but.
There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.
Excellent, thank you
for complementing and adding to this discussion, mhagle, it's really important.
Online trolls are such a problem. Paid trolls are even worse. And THAT is no longer "conspiracy theory". You can buy actual software so you can "multiple-persona" yourself and "manage" your online "product" (cough) more efficiently. That list of "troll signs" in the comments is awesome, too--I do think Ray Pensador has had a LOT to say on this subject. Hell, he could probably write a book about it by now...
Some folks got together and created a great place here and I love it and want to help keep it that way (yes, I know, I get cranky, but I'm trying to be better about that, lol!). In many cases, ignoring it makes it go away quickly. Even if it doesn't, it needs fuel. I can't stress enough that sometimes "ignoring it" doesn't seem to work completely--what I mean by this is that I'll see a troll post, ignore it, and then I'll see people participating in it! That's usually because a Good Cop (or even more than one) has arrived, to make the discussion look legit. Next thing you know, I am jumping in. I hate it when I do that, but it helps to recognize when they tend to suck me in.
At the end of the day, irony abounds--the best advice I ever got on this came at GOS! It was, simply, "you don't have to respond to every post". It's actually kind of liberating. The argument--whatever it is--doesn't live or die if you miss a post. That's the hardest lesson I have had to learn, and I still have trouble with it.
Imagine being so petty and simple-minded that you jack someone else's blog long enough to puke up an "argument" that insults everybody's intelligence, and then run away without engaging ANYbody--only to report back to your little blog playground across the way, to tell others that "Everybody wuz so meeeeeeeeean to meeeeeeeeee".
I've always wondered what the actual pay grade for such a position is. How much does it take for you to stifle your own soul, so you can sell a bunch of bullshit to someone else--unhealthy bullshit, deadly bullshit, bullshit with long-term, real-world consequences.
The song is called "Soul (how much did you get)" by the Pretenders. Chrissie Hynde, singing about Michael Jackson, and as usual, she pulls no punches. But some of this could be about anybody...
Hey baby
I wanna know
How much
Did you get for your soul?
You had the gospel
When you were shackled to a tree
Now you've got your freedom
You sing for the money
Soul
Soul
Soul
Soul
How much did ya
How much did ya
How much did ya get?
Hey babe
Tell me please
How much
Did you get for that sleaze?
You finally made it
Right up to the top
Millions of kids are looking at you
You say let them drink soda pop
Soul
Soul
Soul
Soul
How much did ya
How much did ya
How much did ya get?
Who's got soul?
Who's got soul?
From the african nation
To the pepsi generation
Who's got soul?
Who's got soul?
It dwell from tree to sea
Every living entity
Share the super soul
We got super soul
Who's got soul?
Who could think that you're for real -
A puppet in a cabaret
To increase your wealth
Baby realise yourself
Hey baby
I wanna know
From the 'a-go-go' to the disco
Where did you really go?
You finally made it
You're gonna make it rich
As long as some poor bastard in africa
Is lying in a ditch
Soul
Soul
Soul
Soul
How much did ya
How much did ya
How much did ya get?
lunachickie... thanks
For adding all of this good stuff. Love the song too.
Trolls are those creatures in Norwegian mythology that keep you from crossing the bridge. They eat you too.
Marilyn
"Make dirt, not war." eyo
Thank you for this
What a relief it is to be here.
'What we are left with is an agency mandated to ensure transparency and disclosure that is actually working to keep the public in the dark' - Ann M. Ravel, former FEC member