The True Lesson of Pyrrhus
A lot of people have been calling Hillary's victory a Pyrrhic Victory.
As commonly understood, this is a battle in which you take such heavy losses, that you lose the war. However, while poetic, this is not really what the victory of Pyrrhus was, or should represent.
First, let me set the stage: The GREATEST Empire that the world has known up until that point has fallen into complete disarray. Alexanders Generals Divvy up his Empire amongst themselves and fight for the scraps of power, relying on mostly the tactics created not by Alexander, but his Father, Philip II, who had revolutionized the Phalanx into an offensive tool. Combined with the Heavy Macedonian Cavalry, this Hammer and Anvil Tactic had soundly routed the Persians, and numerous other kingdoms, but found itself stymied when face to face with equal forces.
For decades, the Successor States to Alexanders Empire fought among each other, relying on anything they could in order to gain an edge over their opponents. Chariot, Elephants, Camels, the list goes on and on with the attempts that the successor states used to gain advantages over each other.
Into this, We have the Hellenic State of Epirus on the west coast of what we now think of as Greece. The ruling family is deposed, and Pyrrhus goes to live with the tribes of Illyria. He's restored to his throne through marriage and aid of the Ptolemy's of Egypt. As it is, the struggles between the great and civilized Hellenic States continue, but Pyrrhus notes a VERY dangerous threat growing in the west, unlike the rest of his allies. He tries to convince them of the threat, but none of them pay it much heed, preferring to concentrate on their own petty squabbles. Some Claim that Pyrrhus wanted to create his own Empire in Italy, but that is of course, subject to the motives of the Roman Historians.
Pyrrus WON the 1st war. He Could have completely destroyed the Romans, but chose not to, instead, offering them a peace treaty, which was rejected by the Romans. At this point, Pyrrhus STILL did not continue the war against the Romans, instead turning his attention on Carthage, upon request from Sicilian Hellenes. The Sicilian's were quite happy to have Pyrrhus fight their war for him, but refused to pay for it when he requested help.
The end result was that Pyrrhus threw away everything he had, in service to an ally who cared NOTHING about him or his country. While he was doing this, Rome struck at him, and No Hellenic state came to his aid, resulting in a complete loss of the gains in Modern Italy.
So, the lesson of Pyrrhus is NOT that you can win a battle but lose the war. The lesson of Pyrrhus is that you have to win the war you are fighting, before you look to the future. And don't fight other people's wars FOR them.
Of course, that is my interpretation as a admittedly Amateur Historian. Other interpretations are welcome and interesting. Just amazed how few people know exactly what the expression means, or the rich history and lessons behind the concept.
Comments
I always took Pyrrhic victory
I always took Pyrrhic victory to mean you won, but at great cost to yourself, look at Russian WW2 victories where they threw hundreds of thousands of trained soldiers at the invading Germans, sure, they had victories in most cases, but the armies that won the battles suffered almost 90% casualties. It changed when they changed tactics and mindsets.
I would venture that Bernie has played King Pyrrhus thus far, but Hellery is actually bleeding Dems from the party who are upset. the question is will she lose to Trump? Johnson? or best case Jill?
So long, and thanks for all the fish
A more modern, and very industrial example...
What's interesting is that Pyrrhus threw a LOT of money away too, because many of his troops were Mercenaries. (Mercenary work was VERY popular at the time, because there were a LOT of employers...)
And HRW (Her Royal Worshipfulness) is trying to play the part of the Sicilian Hellenes in this, IMHO. Wants Bernie to do all the dying for her, but can't see that she's ignoring the real threats all around her because she's only in it for herself.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
That is a very good analysis.
That is a very good analysis. So she had Bernie play the merc, and fall on his sword for her war, and now she will not have much left when she faces trumps' version of Rome.
I do see the US as very much like Rome before the collapse of that mighty empire as we seem to be repeating the same mistakes.
So long, and thanks for all the fish
The similarities to Alexandrian/Roman period is obvious
If you think of the British Empire as the Alexandrian, especially if you go with the Roman Origin Myth that they were Trojans.
Of course, the one thing we've learned time, and time again... is that the people who should learn from history, NEVER DO.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Hmmm, yet another good empire
Hmmm, yet another good empire example. The American Empire is in the throes of Oligarchy, unrest, divisions, over extended Miliatray adventures, expensive bases to maintain, and a government steeped in corruption, in essence a falling Empire, and many may hate the observation, but we are on the brink of a collapse long a broad spectrum, I have no answers as to how to pick up the pieces once it does collapse.
Like you Detroitmechworks, I spent most of my life as a worker/soldier. Had I taken up the scholars' path early on, maybe I may have some ideas. for now we exist in a dying empire that will collapse, or once again find a way to reinvigorate itself for a few more decades.
Bernie sadly not fighting al the way thru the convention and not being the nominee means nothing will be done on the climate front, and the alternate fuels and tech front, no, I am afraid it means more money stolen from the poor to hand over to the Oil and Military industries. Those pigs have grown very fat at the trough.
So long, and thanks for all the fish
As I like to remind people...
Socrates had a day job. He was a stonemason and former soldier. What's interesting is that his philosophy mostly depended on pointing out the hypocrisy of the ruling classes, who often didn't fight.
I strongly believe that there is wisdom not found in a College Receipt, but it has been discounted by those without it.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
I finally went to an online
I finally went to an online school, mostly a varied class set called Communications. It was a degree or two offset and delayed for decades, and of course with the health taking a hit, well, can't pay so am waiting for a debt absolvement process to be over.
I also had a hobby of history, looking into the way things worked, and such, and well, here I am.
So long, and thanks for all the fish
wiki view
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Is a cheater in chief really a victor? We'll see.
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
I always take Roman accounts with a Grain of Salt.
But that's mostly because they've been proven to be as big liars in their time as the MSM is in ours.
Thanks for the quote though, and I was going mostly from memory of old books.
What's interesting is that there were so many POTENTIAL Romes, during the 3rd Century B.C. Of course, "What If" is the Historian's favorite game.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
I do like imagining many
I do like imagining many historical "what ifs" myself.
So long, and thanks for all the fish
My usual favorite is alternate Romes.
I like the concept if what if the Hellenic States had banded together in order to preserve the knowledge that was lost under roman rule. (AntiKythonian Device, Archimedes of Syracuse, Pythagoras etc...)
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Ah yes, and the technological
Ah yes, and the technological impact such an alteration of history would have had. so many possibilities.
So long, and thanks for all the fish
What's interesting is the difference...
Could be very interesting, considering that much of the Roman knowledge was maintained in Byzantium until the 14-15th centuries. If there had been a similar style of knowledge preservation, like the Great Library of the Ptolemys...
But again, it's a fun what if. I just keep remembering SO many stories of the Romans destroying things because they didn't fit with their rigid society. Would be interesting to see what was destroyed, and exacerbated in destruction by the remnants under the Catholics.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Or what might have been
Or what might have been preserved had Rome adopted the things, or what if Rome had not ruled?
So long, and thanks for all the fish
Great conversation...
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
I enjoy conversation like
I enjoy conversation like this, and also enjoy playing wargames. Yes, i do play with little soldiers and their support vehicles, Mainly set in the future or space.
So long, and thanks for all the fish
40K? Old IG player here...
And as I like to point out, one of the originer of the modern wargame was an AVID pacifist, who hoped that by creating small scale versions of "The Great Game of Strategy" it would lower the body count in reality.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Why yes, Yes I do
Well, mostly been building and painting of late, hard to get a good game with the lack of car and all, plus I would need to sit for the most part, legs don't like standing up for more than a few minutes at a time.
IG/SM/Tau/Orks and Crons.
Yes, better pixels or plastic deaths than actual people deaths.
So long, and thanks for all the fish
I'm about 3 editions behind...
But I still have my custom built IG army. (Hand sculpted Greatcoats on the entire army, and built Rough Riders from a bunch of various Citadel models)
Just been unable to make the investment in time and money needed to get back into "The Hobby". Was one of the only things that kept me sane in the Army tho.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
The models would be still
The models would be still valid for many editions as well as alternate rule sets, I stopped at 6th edition as 7th was insane prices, and they are doing an 8th ed soon. Great coats in plastics was one of the down sides of the thinking at GW as in no one was swilling to make them as a set, and now, well, whoo! prices got outrageous.
My most recent platoon worked on.
and my awesome desk area organizational skills!
So long, and thanks for all the fish
Here's some of my best... been a while.
https://twitter.com/Detroit15/status/756705743580135424
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
opened the link, decent
opened the link, decent concept, like the "Brown-coats" army idea.
So long, and thanks for all the fish
Very similar. Actually mounted...
several models in Jeep models, and used them as HW squads...
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Very nice! I post most of my
Very nice! I post most of my progress at a modeler site Dakka-dakka.com
So long, and thanks for all the fish
Cheater in Chief has a four
Cheater in Chief has a four way war ahead of her, we shall see which of the four will stand over the bodies of the other three.
So long, and thanks for all the fish
Voting for Jill, because I always enjoy Grotesques...
For those who don't know, a "Grotesque" is a chess puzzle in which white fights against a MUCH superior Black Foe, and yet still manages to either stalemate OR victory.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Ah, also known as a
Ah, also known as a "Handicapped" chess game. I too have decided Jill is getting my vote, Hellery not because all them reasons. No for Trump as same issues, plus I used to see him in the news a LOT back in my New York days.
Johnson also will not get my vote due to the greedy nature of most of the Libertarian party types, it boils down to "I got mine, so go bugger off, maybe a bear will eat you"
So long, and thanks for all the fish
As I always understood it, the
concept behind the phrase was verbalized when Pyrrhus himself said (after the battle at Asculum in 279 BCE), "One more victory against the Romans and we will be ruined".
I've always understood it to mean a victory that might as well have been a loss.
"When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained." - Mark Twain
There's a LOT of Roman self-congratulations...
In their histories, I find.
That definition is a classical definition of it, yes. The general sense of losing even though you won. Problem was that Pyrrhus never LOST territory against the Romans in battle. As a result the general negative tone of it suggests a very negative and foolish view of Pyrrhus which the historical record doesn't back up.
Just my rant of course, but it's interesting how they focus on what he SAID, rather than what happened.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.