something worth considering despite TOP's Hillarists

FYI from https://louisproyect.org/2016/07/14/misusing-german-history-to-scare-up-...

In Harold Meyerson’s “Bernie, Hillary, and the Ghost of Ernst Thalmann”, the same historical analogy is used to get out the vote for Clinton but this time directed more at disaffected Sanderistas than Green Party activists who Meyerson likely views as beyond hope:

In the last years of the Weimar Republic, the real menace to Germany, Thälmann argued, wasn’t the Nazis but the Communists’ center-left, and more successful, rival for the backing of German workers: the Social Democrats. The SDs, he said, were actually “social fascists,” never mind that they were a deeply democratic party without so much as a tinge of fascism in their theory and practice. But as the Communists’ rival for the support of the German working class, the SDs became the chief target of the Communists’ campaigns.

Thälmannism, then, is the inability (be it duplicitous, willful, fanatical, or just plain stupid) to distinguish between, on the one hand, a rival political tendency that has made the compromises inherent to governance and, on the other hand, fascism. And dispelling that inability is precisely what Bernie Sanders will be doing between now and November.

I’m neither equating Donald Trump with Hitler nor saying he’s fascist in the classic sense. Trump has no organized private army of thugs to attack and intimidate his rivals, as both Hitler and Mussolini did. But Trump’s racist, xenophobic, and nationalist appeals; his division of the nation into valorous and victimized native-born whites and menacing non-white interlopers; his constant employment of some Big Lies and many Little ones; and his scant regard for civil liberties make him the closest thing to a fascist of any major party presidential nominee in our history.

Yet a minority of Sanders’s supporters fail to grasp the threat that a Trump presidency poses to the nation—to immigrants, to minorities, to workers, and even to the left and to themselves. I doubt more than a handful will actually vote for Trump, but Jill Stein and even Gary Johnson will win some of the Sanders diehards’ votes (though for voters, moving from Medicare-for-All Sanders to Medicare-for-None Johnson requires either extraordinary ideological footwork or simple brain death). In states where the race between Clinton and Trump is close, however, a Sanders diehard’s vote for Stein or Johnson, or a refusal to vote at all, is in effect a vote for Trump.

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gulfgal98's picture

The Only reason why our government is fighting in so many countries now and during Smedley's time as muscle for hire for j is so that the corporations can steal other country's resources and for corporations to get rich.
Listen to any president's speech about why they say they need to put troops in harm's way. They always talk about protecting US interests, not to protect this country.

It is big red flag that nauseates me every time I hear Obama say it.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Haikukitty's picture

the MSM refuses to give the full story. We NEVER hear about how we've toppled democratically elected governments. Our government is never called to account by its "journalists" - most people honestly don't know about any of it.

The actually believed we were attacked because they hate our "freedumbs" - I mean, honestly. Would you really travel to another country and lose your life because you hate the fact that people in that country can do this or that so much?

I always think the root of this is in the loss of critical thinking skills being taught in schools. Absolutely no one should have fallen for that they hate our freedoms crap. No... they hate that we've been meddling in their countries for a generation or more, stealing their resources, and killing their people. Now, doesn't that sound a little more believable as a reason?

But I have no idea how we'd ever get the truth into the heads of the sleeping masses. They'll continue to be confounded as to why these attacks are happening.

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terriertribe's picture

The west (both governments and corporations) has been running roughshod over the people of the middle east at least as far back as WWI, when we divided it up into most of the countries you see today.

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Haikukitty's picture

The Crusades were in a sense the start of this mentality.

I was too lazy to do my research into when this latest round of blatant interference began, I just knew it was at least WWII, which in my mind is a generation ago - although of course by usual standards a generation is only 20 years or so.

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terriertribe's picture

You must be getting close to my age Smile

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Haikukitty's picture

so to me, my whole life is one generation, and the stuff that happened while my parents were alive before I was born is the generation before. Because it's all about me. Smile

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terriertribe's picture

You still have some catching up to do, age-wise. Wink I like your analysis of your condition, though.

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I would also add that police forces engaging in the routine harassment, beating, false arrest and murder of specific identifiable groups of citizens is fascist as well, as is the notion that politicians helping to cover such as this up are fit to retain office, as Hillary believes.

They're pissed because then Trump'll profit most, rather than them. But since neither he nor Hillary reliably keeps their word in good-faith bargains, neither would likely retain positions for very long as corporate management under the TPP hostile corporate take-over anyway.

Edit: drat, can't change just half a sentence and leave the rest in the wrong tense without giving the words serious cramp... and forgot a qualifier - need caffeine!

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

elenacarlena's picture

urge the supers to flip to Bernie. It's still possible. We don't have to have a Clinton nominee. That you stick to Her Heinous despite the fact she is now losing in the polls to the OranguTrump tells me you're not serious about your fear of him. The generic you, including the diarist as the shoe fits.

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LapsedLawyer's picture

fit not quote from, other Myerson's bit quoted in the article.

For example, the article, after quoting the garbage you quoted, plus a bit more from Myerson's blood brother and Green Party saboteur Ted Glick, louisproyect goes on to say (after outlining the sad sorry history of these two "leftists"):

So what does all this have to do with the rise of Adolph Hitler? The answer is nothing at all. Hitler is invoked as a kind of bogeyman to frighten liberals. He serves the same purpose as a warning from your parents when you were six years old. If you don’t brush your teeth, the bogeyman will get you. Now it is if you don’t vote for Hillary Clinton, der Führer Donald Trump will get you.

He refutes their points (and by extension this diarist's) by noting the real history of the German Social Democrats:

Like the Democratic Party, the German Socialists cut deals with the opposition rightwing parties to stay in power. In effect, they were the Clinton and Obamas of their day. In 1928, the Socialists were part of a coalition government that allowed the SP Chancellor Hermann Müller to carry out what amounted to the same kind of sell-out policies that characterized Tony Blair and Bernard Hollande’s nominally working-class governments.

It's this selling out that leads to fascism, that summoned a Donald Trump to arise from the pit. Half-measures and accommodations to a financial and business elite that have been all about dick-measuring by way of their stock prices and P/E ratios rather than by production output and new hires (i.e. real economic activity that benefits workers and workers-as-consumers in their neighborhoods, allowing them to build and thrive in the technological and demographic blizzard now overtaking their previously reliable employment and earnings opportunities) won't cut it anymore as the half-assed crap they call "progressive" simply doesn't work, and in fact impoverishes many.

louisproyect concludes:

Now of course we are in a period hardly resembling the final days of the Weimar Republic. The good news is that a fascist takeover is highly unlikely since parliamentary democracy is more than adequate to keep the working class under control. The bad news, on the other hand, is that the left is so inconsequential and the trade unions so weak that there is no need for fascism.

But who knows? Another decade or so of declining wages and cop killings of Black people might precipitate the rise of a left party that has learned to avoid the reformist stupidity of the German SP and the suicidal ultra-leftism of the Stalinists. It is highly likely that people like Harold Meyerson and Ted Glick will be as hostile to it as they are to Jill Stein’s campaign today. Despite their foolishness, we should soldier on to final victory. The fate of humanity rests on it.

In other words, no, it wasn't worth considering.

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"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it."
-- John Lennon

snoopydawg's picture

Thanks for providing the rest of the article that annilie purposely left out when trying to start a shit storm here.
I see a lot of comments on LOF that degrade or laugh at what we say on this site and the others that sprung up after Markos crowned Hillary, but who's laughing now?

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There were problems with running a campaign of Joy while committing a genocide? Who could have guessed?

Harris is unburdened of speaking going forward.

Meteor Man's picture

Or BBB. Wouldn't that be funny?

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"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn

riverlover's picture

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

And, no.

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They are asleep over there, dreaming up the bad reality. Leave it! Take what you want and leave the rest.

Apologies for not noticing the author and just diving in to the "essay" and comments. dailykos gets dragged in to many conversations here, I understand. But also I am longing for the days when you "forget all the bad things they did to you". Go in peace.

NP: Thomas Dolby - My Brain Is Like a Sieve

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lunachickie's picture

at least, not that I've seen much of. Notable exceptions being the particularly loud mouths here and there--but for most, including myself, there's only one name, that of "markos". Heh. I'll bet he hates that Napoleon shit. Hey, if the shoe fits...

Napoleon-bunny-part-still.jpg

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tourniquet's picture

"sanders' campaign is never going to go anywhere"?

yeah, i'm not sure how captain completely wrong would be useful here.

who the fuck is bbb? berpy boop bonkles?

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GIANT ALL-CAPS SIG

"who the fuck is bbb?"

brooklynbadboy
Dec 21 · 01:08:50 PM

I know what this kind of luck is like as well.

I never would have thought I'd be a millionaire just by owning a house in the hood. Or stumbling into an amazing job. I don't take a lick worth of credit except for avoiding crime, the all too common route for folks where I come from.

Being a one percenter...all of it is sheer unadulterated luck. Some people think its because of something they did but its purely about being at the right place at thr right time.

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riverlover's picture

I may be too paranoid, but I got that long ago, just could not ascribe the hink. Psy-op?

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

It is a comment in Markos' own diary "I was a lucky one, achieving the American Dream" where he talked about selling out to Comcast and putting more resources in to his own vanity domain. Perhaps some day he'll run for president too and have bbb for secretary of war. lol Wink

Peace

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Mark from Queens's picture

or any of those other POS Neoliberal water boys shilling for the 1% and brazenly defending and bragging about their own ill-gotten small piles.

But I refuse to go over to their little adult playpen. It's overcrowded with vermin infected by delusions of "free markets", false piety, fealty to corrupt revolving door politics, willful ignorance about economic inequality, quid pro quo money in politics and the takeover of our gov't by financial elites.

I dislike crowds teeming with assholes, frat boys and cigar-smoking douchebags, never mind the vermin. Give me gatherings with folks who have been to protest marches, read literature, love music and art and acknowledge the universality of the struggle of the 99%.

In other words give me C99. Multiply by the thousands and we'll change the world yet. By first exposing fraudsters wherever they are.

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"If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph:

THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED
FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
WAS MUSIC"

- Kurt Vonnegut

That bigoted Wall Street Wannabe, who fancies himself an electoral expert but who probably knows less about what's driving populist resentment than my Schnauzers? Please JtC, ban hammer that louche fraud if he ever dares show his smirking face over here.

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Mark from Queens's picture

His dopey moniker alone, as if he's some street wise tough guy. Told him once his name didn't befit someone who carries water for the 1%. Then challenged him to take his reflexive Neoliberal defense of Wall St out onto any street corner in Brooklyn, where I assured him he wouldn't last more than 5 minutes on a soapbox before everyday folks would be hopping over each other to get a piece of his fraudulent ass (no response). "Come out, come out, wherever you are." He never will. Likes the fleeting self-importance he gets behind velvet ropes, materialism and mindless bloviating pieces at LOF.

Former armed forces guy turned Wall St minion, he's today's New Dem. He's really the poster boy for what's wrong with the party/country/world, the selling of your soul/conscience for an I-Got-Mine, Get Rich Quick scheme then telling everyone else they're not pulling their bootstraps up.

dhoning is another half-wit, Pity The Billionaire apologist, also always at the ready to chip in to run interference for the oligarchy. Oops, did I said oligarchy? Remember how the Napoleonic wannabe grade school principal Markos actually dismissively wrote "oligarchy, whatever whatever"? Those smug bastards. That was when I knew I was in a conservative den of RW Neoliberal morons, fronting for a team I recognized wasn't my own.

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"If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph:

THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED
FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
WAS MUSIC"

- Kurt Vonnegut

kharma's picture

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There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.. This...is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.--John Adams

riverlover's picture

and then get back to me. If I called him second coming of Liberache would the bot get that?

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

BBB was supposed to be a Black guy who was OK with Hillary stating that a mayor caught supporting the police murder of Black citizens by hiding evidence in covering for them was fit to retain his position. I'd also noticed that while he had a picture of a Black guy as an avatar on his posts, there was no photo in his bio in a list of such for DKos staff.

So, yeah, was already wondering about sock puppetry there, and his claiming to be one of the token minority Dem Black financial elite which, for neoliberals, makes everything else OK for African Americans predominately dumped at the bottom of the ladder with almost everyone else piled down there standing on their hands, partly from lack of room, doesn't exactly detract from this theory.

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

LapsedLawyer's picture

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"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it."
-- John Lennon

kharma's picture

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There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.. This...is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.--John Adams

kharma's picture

At the other place you talk about you would be censored and banned.

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There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.. This...is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.--John Adams

kharma's picture

A vote for Clinton is a vote for President Trump.

You made this bed, sleep in it.

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There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.. This...is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.--John Adams

only because there was some great discussion in the comments.

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annieli's picture

and it was amusing to be called a Hillbot if only because if I'm here because of ACM, I could never be one, ever.

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@eState4Column5

Citizen Of Earth's picture

I chose neither. Nothing changes in this country until a third party gains critical mass and topples these corrupt Two Wings of the NeoLiberal Party.

Go Jill!!

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Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.

Is a vote for despotism. Yes, I see elements of fascism in both, but neither is a purist.

That being said, I think many here missed the intention of the diary. From the title "something worth considering despite TOP's Hillarists", to the link title " misusing German history to scare...", to the FYI intro.

Seems many at this site are still carrying the kos chip on their shoulder. Some the size of railroad ties. Leave your feelings about that place in the past. Don't rail against it so hard you, too, become an echo chamber you claim to abhor.

I'm reasonably sure annilie is the same Ann Summers at Flowers for Socrates. I've seen the same article posted at different sites under the two names. I've followed Ann at Flowers for quite awhile. She is hardly the corporatist hillbot she is being painted with in this comment thread.

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There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

TheOtherMaven's picture

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

Calling a mouse tyrannosaur Rex doesn't make it one no matter how many people say it is.

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There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

Alex Budarin's picture

a rival political tendency that has made the compromises inherent to governance

IMO, that perfectly describes the Third Way thinking of the Clintons and President Obama.

"You have to compromise with Wall Street. They are too big, too powerful, and too important to piss off. Also, too, the pharmaceutical companies and health insurance companies. Sure we can regulate them, but we have to let them make the rules, and we have to appoint some of them to enforce those rules. You can't piss them off. You don't really want to mess with them. They are so big, so powerful, so important, and how dare you say they are so self-serving.

"You also have to compromise with right-wingers, no matter how far to the right they go. Chain the CPI? Okay, could be worse. Tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans? We can extend that, if you insist. We'll even voluntarily cut Federal pay raises, just to show you right-wingers how willing we are to make those compromises inherent to governance."

Sorry, but I don't believe you get substantive change with fawning and capitulation. And I do believe we need substantive change.

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"All Life is Problem Solving" - Karl Popper

When you have 2 groups of politicians who are paid to represent the people 'compromising' by bargaining down the people's property, programs, possessions and rights, the people should stop paying them and get new ones in who can actually do their jobs.

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

Bollox Ref's picture

Next!

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Gëzuar!!
from a reasonably stable genius.

and all we've got are opponents who continue to be even more batsh*t crazy. At some point this has to stop; all that is happening is more right wing agenda from both parties. I don't recognize the Republicans anymore and I recognize the Democrats as Rockefeller Republicans. Odds are this may be my last Presidential Election and I'll be damned if I want to continue this farce.

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Dear Hilarities:
For those of you who are arithmetic-challenged, 0 for Clinton +1 for Trump. (Refer to first grade). If Clinton loses, it's the fault of the Dems who chose her in the face of better choices, not me. If Trump is that bad in your minds, you probably should have reconsidered before you fixed the primaries.

Signed
Not my problem

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mouselander's picture

Last refuge of the morally and intellectually bankrupt lesser-evilists. Sorry, not buying. This isn't about Sensible Hillary vs. Toxic Donald. It's about an incredibly cynical and dysfunctional political system that offers voters a bracing choice of which duopoly candidate is tasked with the job of screwing them over.

ThirdParty.jpg

Bernie said this back in 1989. Wonder what has changed for him between then and now? The Democrats always depict the Republican candidate as the Anti-Christ who will bring about the end of civilization as we know it. Do their current cries of wolf mean that this time there is a real wolf? I agree with Jill Stein - most of what people fear from Donald has already been delivered by Hillary.

Regardless of the inevitable hackery from die-hard Hillbots, this year a great many of us will choose to vote for what we support, as opposed to against what we oppose. If the D's were really that intent on stopping the supposed Anti-Christ Trump, then surely they would have put forward a more palatable candidate than Hillary Clinton.

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inactive account

There is no Hindenburg who will approve of Trump, we didn't have harsh surrender terms imposed on us by England and France and we have an anti-autocratic tradition (although so did the Roman Republic). Not among Hitler's worst legacies, but still bad, is the tool of manipulation that the history he created provides.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

edg's picture

I upvoted the essay thinking it was by an essayist poking fun at how desperate and stupid the Clinton folks are getting but then gathered from the comments that it's actually a guilt trip attempt to get votes for Hillary. Sheesh!

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OLinda's picture

pretty sure if you click the thumb again it will take your vote off.

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featheredsprite's picture

but the Democratic establishment feared Bernie more than they feared Trump. So they're getting what they asked for.

On a more cheerful note, here's an unscientific internet poll:
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2016/06/poll_will_you_vote_for_hill...
Vote and look at the Jill Stein numbers. Smile [happy smile]

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Life is strong. I'm weak, but Life is strong.

Thanks for the link - I'm smiling! Jill at almost 40% at this point, with Trump well below and Hillary around 20%, just where she ought to be, with only the top 10% and some uniformed elderlies voting for their own doom.

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

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