And the system grinds on

Once again systems theory had the answer but we could not totally believe it. The system is very stable and it eats anything that tries to change that.

Bernie had to be beaten and he was. It really does not matter how it was done. At least he is still alive. He has made a choice which probably shows a deep understanding of the system and how it works.

Give a little time and the gnashing of teeth and wailing will fade away. Elections are like that. They command attention not thought.

One thing comes to mind. Looking back to 2008 I was aware that Obama could never change the system and live. He was, in a sense, vindicated by Bernie. The system will either destroy you or bring you in to help it grow more powerful.

In a way, I am glad it is over. The election buffs will get lots of mileage and the revolutionaries will have to think hard.

Meanwhile the system grinds on. It sure was hot today.

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riverlover's picture

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

Bollox Ref's picture

grinding on seems about right.

Can Bernie avoid being part of the casing?

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Gëzuar!!
from a reasonably stable genius.

Bernie has managed to avoid that throughout his life-time, even if he's been forced to mouth some pretty dreadful things to avoid being shut out. He may even believe that Trump is worse than Hillary - tough call on that one.

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

I am sad/glad/mystified/shocked/cynically NOT SHOCKED and everything in between.
No matter how much a movement needs to work for the betterment of all, the fact remains change comes at the voting booth.
And the voting booth is about as honest as that carnival game where you try to shoot the balloons with the carnival gun that shoots low and to the right, except you do not know that until after you lose your money, and when you want a second chance, you get a different gun, and by the time you shoot it, blah blah blah.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

don mikulecky's picture

calling your belief a fact is a sign of how insecure you are about it

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An idea is not responsible for who happens to be carrying it at the time. It stands or it falls on its own merits.

I believe the vote is untrustworthy based upon factual evidence.
That is the system that I believe grinds on.
First time you and I have been on different pages, my friend.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

don mikulecky's picture

the fact remains change comes at the voting booth.

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An idea is not responsible for who happens to be carrying it at the time. It stands or it falls on its own merits.

I absolutely believe that is the case, and the history of the US.
Movements,such as labor, started with protests and death and major mayhem, but I believe (my assessment of history) says the elections sealed the deal.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

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“ …and when we destroy nature, we diminish our capacity to sense the divine,and understand who God is, and what our own potential is and duties are as human beings.- RFK jr. 8/26/2024

featheredsprite's picture

But governmental systems are stable only if they are flexible enough to change to keep the consent of the governed. They have to change as societies change. And societies do evolve.

In the meantime, it's supposed to be hot here tomorrow. Smile

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Life is strong. I'm weak, but Life is strong.

need to be flexible to respond to the masses anymore. It's not like we have anything like equal weaponry. There's never been so much servailance (sp?), with room to develop more. And there's never been so much over production of goods.

Governments used to have to keep at least enough people happy enough to keep working to produce the stuff the overlords needed. (And the level of "happiness" was pretty damn low even then)

Now, very few folks need to work to produce enough to feed the overlords and provide luxury boats, etc....

Some people think we might have a bloody revolution like in days past. I just don't see how the little folks can pull it off considering the weapons at government disposal. We'd be squashed like little bugs on the sidewalk if governments decided to bring the full force of their capacity upon us.

I think climate change will do the existing order in.

With a minute chance that the overlords are philosophical enough to think maybe their own happiness is a tad more tied up with the happiness of the masses before the climate curtain comes down.

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don mikulecky's picture

I think climate change will do the existing order in.

Global Insanity: How Homo sapiens Lost Touch with Reality while Transforming the World

The Global Economy that sustains the civilized world is destroying the biosphere. As a result, civilization, like the Titanic, is on a collision course with disaster. But changing course via the body politic appears to be well nigh impossible, given that much of the populace lives in denial. Why is that? And how did we get into such a fix? In this essay, biologists James Coffman and Donald Mikulecky argue that the reductionist model of the world developed by Western civilization misrepresents life, undermining our ability to regulate and adapt to the accelerating anthropogenic transformation of the world entrained by that very model. An alternative worldview is presented that better accounts for both the relational nature of living systems and the developmental phenomenology that constrains their evolution. Development of any complex system reinforces specific dependencies while eliminating alternatives, reducing the diversity that affords adaptive degrees of freedom: the more developed a system is, the less potential it has to change its way of being. Hence, in the evolution of life most species become extinct. This perspective reveals the limits that complexity places on knowledge and technology, bringing to light our hubristically dysfunctional relationship with the natural world and increasingly tenuous connection to reality. The inescapable conclusion is that, barring a cultural metamorphosis that breaks free of deeply entrenched mental frames that made us what we are, continued development of the Global Economy will lead inexorably to the collapse of civilization.

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An idea is not responsible for who happens to be carrying it at the time. It stands or it falls on its own merits.

The conceit is that modern man is 'different' because we have technology. But history is replete with examples of spectacular civilizations over reaching, not recognizing the danger of their consumption and in the end paying a heavy price for not recognizing the 'system' needs to change. It is what we as a species do. The only difference here is now the system is global and there is no other lands to move to once you have destroyed the land you are in. Or no separate civilizations that will survive when you cradle collapses.

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Democrats, we tried to warn you. How is that guilt and shame working out?

Some people think we might have a bloody revolution like in days past. I just don't see how the little folks can pull it off considering the weapons at government disposal. We'd be squashed like little bugs on the sidewalk if governments decided to bring the full force of their capacity upon us.

This is a common misconception.

First, let me start with this, because we need to be on the same page to have these conversations at all. If there is a violent revolution, I do not believe it will begin with organized citizen militias declaring war on the United States of America and marching toward DC.

Here is how it may begin, I think. Say there is a protest following some tragic event - another extrajudicial murder, another economic crash, whatever. People are angry. Tensions are running high as protesters march through the streets. Suddenly, a fight starts - maybe someone decided to act out against police, maybe the police tried to cut off part of the march and kettle it, maybe it's a police agent - doesn't matter. Police swarm in and start grabbing people, maybe beating or pepper-spraying them - we saw this repeatedly with Occupy.

The difference is that someone has had just about enough of this shit, and counterattacks the cops. Now, I'm leaving "counterattack" a bit vague; maybe the first person is armed and intends to hurt or kill, maybe they're acting in defense of others, maybe they're just trying to resist arrest, maybe they're just trying to pull the cops away from someone. It doesn't matter because the march turns into a police riot.

The gloves come off, but no one knows who to hit. Maybe state police or the National Guard are brought in to enforce order (and perhaps a curfew or public assembly ban?) but this only raises tensions. Some police are shot and killed; a squad car is set on fire; anti-establishment graffiti appears like mushrooms.

Or, it may go rather differently. Suppose a large number of housing activists begin a rent strike. Predictably, the landlords file evictions; the Sheriff's office sends some officers around to enforce them. The activists were expecting this, and they've all texted each other and are showing up at contested property and they're refusing to leave or to be arrested peacefully. Now, in a case like this, police will generally back off and let the situation fizzle out. But maybe that doesn't happen. Landlords have powerful lobbies and allies in state and local government, and they may want to speed up the process. Some Sheriffs think they're badasses (e.g. Joe Arpaio) and may want to make a show of force.

However it starts, the rebellion catches fire across the nation. Sympathy protests appear; some peaceful, some not.

Tell me, in this situation, who does the military attack? Where does the military attack? This is exactly the kind of war the entire US military struggles to fight; it bogged us down in Iraq and Afghanistan, where there was far less land to control, populated by less people with less ways to communicate, travel, organize, and fight. Police and military have been training for a scenario like this for decades, but all the training in the world can't change the fact that we have them vastly outnumbered, the entire country is potentially hostile territory, and they will be reluctant to kill American citizens.

That last part may seem a bit unlikely to you. After all, Private Dan follows orders. If Private Dan is told to go to Boise and occupy it and that the rules of engagement authorize him to use lethal force, that's what he's going to do. Until he thinks about his friends and family back home, who live in the same country he's trying to pacify, and what's happening to them right now? What will happen to them if he neutralizes nine enemy combatants in the line of duty? Because that's just going to piss everyone off more.

The vast majority of our military's weapons systems are useless for ending civil unrest. No one, anywhere, is making a big Napoleonic line of riflemen that the Army can just drop a bomb on or run a tank through, and if you start massacring peaceful protesters just because they're conveniently grouped up, well, the optics on that are shit.

(Aside: proponents of peaceful protest often insist that by remaining peaceful, the unwarranted brutality of the police response will outrage the public and win sympathy for the protesters. Yet, we have repeatedly seen that police are able to deter or arrest protesters without using brutal tactics, and these same peaceful protesters categorically refuse to do anything that would provoke a more forceful response - so how exactly is this plan supposed to work? I don't know, and I don't think they do either.)

Alright. So, now that you know what I think violent revolution might look like, let's talk about the endgame. As you may imagine, this is not a sustainable society. Strikes, sabotage, disruption, and looting will cripple businesses. Police and military have to be paid. Both the government and the 1% will wish to restore order as soon as possible, but they won't be able to do it without the people's consent. And THIS is how the little people finally get a place, however temporary, at the bargaining table. Similar to the 1930s, the people will be able to articulate a vision and a set of demands and policy proposals that the rulers will have little choice but to accept. There's no need to actually organize armies and march on Washington - which means no one-sided showdowns with the US Armed Forces.

If they bargain quickly, we won't have much of a revolution - but we might get things we need, similar to the New Deal and decades of sorta-progressive leadership, and then it will be up to us to build on those gains rather than going back to sleep.

If they bargain slowly, then there will be more time for people to start creating alternate institutions - like, say, new people's governments. These are essentially coups at local or state level. The longer this process goes on, the more power the people arrogate to themselves directly and the less of a say the prior government - if it sticks around at all - will have in deciding what the new order will be. Of course, this could also break the union; I imagine that a number of states or state blocs might not want to restore the status of the federal government without making some changes first - for instance, populous liberal states might want the Jesusland states to have less representation in Congress, more appropriate to their populations.

If this all seems idealistic to you - and I never said it would be a picnic - then the alternative is simply death. Bereft of jobs, food, medicine, homes, etc. and forced to live under ever more squalid and unhealthy living conditions, people will just start dying in larger and larger numbers. (Some conspiracy theorists insist that this is actually what the elite want.) But the less people have to lose, the less they will worry about losing it, and sooner or later, the underclass is bound to turn on its masters.

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feudalism - maybe something like the conditions most lived under under Russian Serfdom. I think there's indications that our ruling elite is truly disfunctional, and has lost the capacity to protect even their own interests beyond merely staying in power rather than thinking more broadly about even their own quality of life.

In other words: I think they are willing to give up their own economic interests in favor of "prestige" power, not unlike the majority of Russian "Nobles", who also lead a pretty poor life.

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The one tiny bright side to feudalist levels of income inequality is that the US military everyone worries about won't exist; the economy will be so fucked that even if they can buy the men cheap, they won't be able to afford a lot of the toys. This will have somewhat of an equalizing effect.

And yeah, I agree; the elite don't seem to care about being better off in absolute terms so much as they care about beating everyone else. Even a poor tyrant is fairly comfortable.

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then it will be up to us to build on those gains rather than going back to sleep.

This is key. The biggest problem we have is the fact that we get a little and then go back to sleep.

At some point we need to realize that we have to be vigilant if we want to keep and expand on any gains we make.

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Yaldabaoth, Saklas I'm calling you. Samael. You're not alone. I said, you're not alone, in your darkness. You're not alone, baby. You're not alone. "Original Sinsuality" Tori Amos

PriceRip's picture

          I just time traveled from spring 1970 and you have capsulized our present situation very well. I will zap back to see if I can prevent Kent State . . .

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Lookout's picture

in the game of politics.
What will happen at the Rethug convention?
Will T-rump survive?
Will Bernie puke on Hellery?...no I guess that would have happened yesterday.

At any rate the soap opera continues... brought to you by your favorite global corporation.

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

Totally. The latest polls show Hillary with a slight lead or a virtual/actual tie. This despite the fact that Trump has virtually no ground game and is not on the air anywhere. Will Hillary survive? Yup - basically the Clintons ARE the Democratic party. For better or worse, the Democratic party is tied at the hip with the Democratic Party. If Trump chooses Christie, I see New York, New Jersey and Ohio in play.

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Democrats, we tried to warn you. How is that guilt and shame working out?

Uninformed, uncaring and malleable populace. Immersed in a propaganda pool from birth to death.

Makes one wonder what the meaning of is is.

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Not Henry Kissinger's picture

The system is very stable and it eats anything that tries to change that.

until it isn't.

I am always struck when reading Revolutionary writers of various periods who all say the same thing: that in the years immediately preceding the political upheaval, most thought the change would never happen.

(Examples include the American, French, Russian Revolutions, and especially the Revolutions of 1848)

However bad conditions were for the less fortunate, however arrogant the rulers behaved, however intolerant the forces of repression seemed, the prevailing belief among even the most ardent change agents was that this was the system they were stuck with, and they should not expect anything to be different anytime soon.

And then suddenly, within a year or two, everything changed.

I truly believe we are quickly approaching such a turning point again, and that we'll look back even just a few years from now and laugh in disbelief at how we didn't see it coming.

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The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?

Lady Libertine's picture

approaching...? I think we are inside "the turning point" so deep we can't see it ("You're soaking in it Madge!")

I think change is inevitable, certainly. The question for us is how much will we be able to direct it toward the light rather than the darkness and the abyss.

Had a sigline for a long time...

“When you realize how perfect everything is, you will tilt your head back and laugh at the sky.”

attributed to Buddha, apparently falsely! lol

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don mikulecky's picture

but so much for crystal balls....time will tell

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An idea is not responsible for who happens to be carrying it at the time. It stands or it falls on its own merits.

SparkyGump's picture

If the TPP passes in the lame duck session I will NEVER vote democrat EVER again. I'll never forgive Obama for the TPP either. The TPP is a betrayal of the American middle class and the American dream itself. Handing over our sovereignty to corporations kills our democracy and establishes an oligarchy. The democrats in power are no more than a bunch of pro-choice republicans. Any democrat who votes for the TPP will only affirm my suspicions.

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The real SparkyGump has passed. It was an honor being your human.

PriceRip's picture

The system is very stable and it eats anything that tries to change that.

          Stability is a symptom of impending catastrophe. A system that oscillates about an equilibrium state that is too stable reacts to changeing forcing factors by flowing through a chaotic regime on its way to oscillating about a new equilibrium state.
          Classic examples from my knowledge base:
1) A patient's heart rhythm becomes too regular just before a heart attack.
2) A well regulated river supports a ecosystem too simple to be resilient.
3) Bridges designed to be symmetric will oscillate to the breaking point.
          A purest political organization will respond to changing political situations as do all such systems by going through a catastrophic era to a final state that may be very undesirable.
          Disclaimer: I don't really know anything about anything. I am only able to examine things from first principles. So, don't expect anyone to accept anything I write as authoritative.

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Haikukitty's picture

Once the system becomes so "stable" it can no longer accommodate the changing needs to the populace, that system will fail.

I'm sure it seemed inconceivable to the Romans that Rome could ever fall - until it did.

I don't know that change is imminent, only that when it comes, it's going to happen fast. I like to think we are riding that wave now, but only time will tell.

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TheOtherMaven's picture

which had it that Rome was destined to last 1200 years from the founding of the city (Ab Urbe Condita). During the early 5th century AD, there was occasional talk about it - but nobody took it seriously. But even by then the foundations were too rotten to salvage. http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/Rome-FellMar95.htm (Note: this is a verbatim chapter from "How The Irish Saved Civilization".)

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.