The reason Elizabeth avoided the protest, and why I am leaving.
The close-minded,jaw-dripping posts of a very few pretty much told me that this place is not for me.
The idea that Warren deliberately dissed folks, by USING THE BACK DOOR, to enter a meeting with constituents is inane and absolutely wrong.
Here is a story which explains far better than I, why she did what she did. She had no clue who was in your protest. She had no way to read their minds, their ideas, or their emotions. She simply followed the best security advise she received.
The Labour MP Jo Cox has died after being shot and stabbed multiple times after a constituency meeting.
Armed officers responded to the attack near a library in Birstall, West Yorkshire, on Thursday afternoon. A 52-year-old man was arrested in the area, police confirmed. The suspect was named locally as Tommy Mair.
Police added that Cox, the MP for Batley and Spen, had suffered serious injuries and was pronounced dead at 1.48pm on Thursday by a doctor with paramedics at the scene.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/16/labour-mp-jo-cox-shot-in...
Jo Cox was doing precisely what Elizabeth Warren was doing . . . visiting constituents. And now she is dead.
Is that the pound of flesh that you want from Elizabeth?
I don't give a damn how pure your wishes or how "silent" your protest was. I don't care why you amazingly took affront or felt insulted. The reality of the situation, from her view, was very different than yours. Your inability to put yourself in her shoes is your problem, not hers.
To those who piled on in attacking Elizabeth, perhaps you should reconsider and think about what happened across the Pond. Perhaps, that will make you reconsider just why she acted as she did. Remember, English gun control is far superior to ours, where a TV dude walked into a FLA gunshop yesterday, and walked out with an AR-15 after 10 minutes.
Bye.
Comments
Oh a MP was shot
In the country that doesn't have guns...
By a "Britain First" skinhead. They are so like Bernie supporters...
" In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy "
The UK does have guns
Just not nearly as many or as powerful. And West Yorkshire is pretty rural (think Vermont) so there are a lot of hunting rifles.
What the UK doesn't have is carte blanche to own military hardware for entertainment purposes. If it did, there might be a lot more bodies on the ground.
We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg
West Yorkshire similar to Vermont?
3 times the population [over 2 million] and one quarter the area. Now the Lake District perhaps mountains and lakes.
I come from the NEK so more like the very North of Scotland but colder.
And the US has skinheads.
And so does
the UK. Your point?
The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.
People are very tense
It has been a tough, sometimes heartbreaking time, for most of us for the last couple of weeks. Daily disappointments...have caused people to lose some of their ability to evaluate happenings objectively.
I see your point about security measures Warren had to observe. I suspect the essayist and others were so upset over disappointment on top of disappointment that they weren't thinking clearly. That is common among human beings.
Take a break if you need to, but come back.
Are you saying that people protesting should now be viewed
as a danger to politicians because one of the protesters might shoot them? That Warren avoided the protesters because she thought she might get attacked and shot? Is that where we're heading? Maybe we should buy all of our politicians their very own Popemobiles and assign them all Secret Service.
It's an arguement made by people
who want to protect and serve TPTB.
It is a ready made excuse to isolate the politicians from the people they represent in the name of "security"
When I was a kid, Republicans used to red scare people, now it's the Democrats. I am getting too damn old for this crap!
That's about
That's about as illogical an explanation for a GBCW as I could ever imagine. Sorry to see you go, but if that's your choice then do what you have to do.
Nature is my religion; the earth is my temple.
Ridiculous comparison
Think you are TAKING ADVANTAGE of a tragedy, Jo's death, to justify Elizabeth Warren ( AND HER STAFF) not acknowledging the very dedicated group of her constituents who were gathered to give her a message which was, is, important to them.
There is ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS an advance staff person, persons, at any event. That person, persons, would have seen the small gathering, stopped to ASK QUESTIONS about their purpose, and relayed that information to the Senator. For whatever reason, Warren chose to IGNORE her constituents.
British members of Parliament are very different. Each member has a REGULARLY scheduled "Surgery" to meet with constituents. No registration, no advance planning, OPEN to all to individually meet and ask questions of their member of Parliament.
There is no possibility of individual meetings with a Senator, let-along on a regular basis. Very difficult to arrange a meeting with Senator , unless of course one is a major donor, or has some reference to use which might help one gain access.
So, a Senator making a scheduled visit to a small town in her state, has the responsibility of being as AVAILABLE as possible. Warren knew those few people were outside, and knew why they were there.
As for the essayist using a few comments as a reason to "GBCW" - well, that's a personal choice. "The close-minded,jaw-dripping posts of a very few pretty much told me that this place is not for me." If that's how you make your decisions, perhaps it isn't. Good luck in finding what you want.
I agree completely and I think the "problem"
with those protestors was the bad optics of Liz being questioned on WHY she's now supporting Shillary by people who have gotten her elected and have a right to ask that of her.
In this country, with all the Secret Service and law enforcement and spying available to our law enforcement, there's no way in hell that those protestors were not analyzed for potential hostility, just no way. When you have the city of Philadelphia planning for violence, how can we say that this time, for Liz Warren, there was no advance team to look at the situation there? Right after she endorsed Shillary? She simply had to know that there would be pushback to that little endorsement, and if she didn't then she's not worth too damned much for public life, is she? She's no spin master if she can't manage to spin this one, IMHO. And she's gonna need to be able to spin a hell of a lot better if she's going to be Shillary's VP.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
Senator Warren does dodge what she doesn't want to face!
"...bad optics of Liz being questioned on WHY she's now supporting Shillary by people who have gotten her elected and have a right to ask that of her. "
Could not tell you the number of times here in MA, someone I know had tried to get Warren to just "comment" on an issue facing us here in MA, especially preventing the fracked gas Kinder Morgen pipeline, and she refused, as her staff explained "to get involved" in that issue - more disappointed in her than I can describe.
It didn't surprise me she didn't support, let-alone endorse Bernie Sanders. She wants something for herself. Sad, but having seen how see deals with constituents here in MA, doesn't surprise.
This is true
...and we don't have to go to the UK or too far into this country's past to know what can happen to public figures in a country awash with firearms. Gabby Giffords anyone? Mike Swoboda? Clementa Pinckney? James E. Davis? I won't even mention the obvious ones - JFK, RFK, Ronald Reagan.
I understand that people are fired up and angry over the farce of a process we've just been through, but we probably need to dial down the outrage a mark or two. Otherwise we run the danger of becoming a pale imitation of TOP - all indignation and resentment all the time. We're better than that, or we should be.
I'd also urge PastorAgnostic not to leave. We need all the voices of reason and common sense we can get.
I think your comment is completely ridiculous.
I saw the exchange PastorAgnostic referenced and he acted like a total jerk the entire time. If he wants to turn this into some kind of "Oh, you clearly all want to see harm come to Elizabeth Warren!" bullshit, that's his deal, but I don't have to buy it.
Also too, I'm getting tired of these weepy diaries where people get push back in ONE fuckin' diary and bolt. Did you agree with everyone on TOP? I doubt it.
And the thin skin is really too much lately. Oy.
I miss Colorado.
I'm hurt...
Very, very hurt.
Aww man, I can't even tell if that's sarcasm or not. :/
I miss Colorado.
Salty to the end
Bye Felicia.
That's a bit jumbled. time-wise and event-wise
Elizabeth Warren avoided meeting people several days ago, no? And Jo Cox was killed today so it's not like Warren thought the same would happen to her based on some clairvoyance of things to come.
I'm afraid I must disagree with you.
This issue seems a really weird reason for leaving.
Of all the things to throw hands up about, this doesn't seem like a very big deal. Bernie meets thousands and thousands of people daily. These people ALL have security and staff. But I didn't feel strongly about whether Warren avoided the protestors or not, she's lost a lot of my respect through her actions this primary, not that she gives a damn about that!
Nevertheless, I'm sorry to see you go.
You are as free to to defend Warren
as we are free to say what she did was diss people. I am so disappointed in her I could scream, but after what she did, I read lots of things about her that I should have done before I set my expectations that she was not an establishment figure. I was wrong, so now I'm not a Warren supporter. Why is that not okay with you? Why must I, and others, not say how we really feel about her?
If you leave, there is no discourse. If you stay, you can still support her and realize that many of us don't, right now. I'm not saying I will never support her again - her actions will dictate that for me - but we should all be able to say how we feel and take what others say, especially when they disagree with us, without running away. But, that's me.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
Hey, yes, well put, and I agree.
Checking in to caucus 99 while camping and have a signal here in Kruger National Park. A hyena just blasted the camp ground with it's call from beyond the electric fence, surreal really, when my mind was momentarily back in the USA. The news reading here on caucus99 on EW actions, especially about EW seemingly following in the footsteps of BO in some ways is sad but not unbelievable. Glad I read your comment. All the best. We should be 'home' in NM by late August.
A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.
Hey, do!
Great to hear from you - all the way from South Africa! Let me know when you're back. It would be great to get together!
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
Hey there, do, good to see you. Thinking of all of the
places I could go with current US politics and hyenas calling outside the fence, and I think I'll just say high and let it pass.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
be logic and link to what you are talking about ...
If those jaw-dripping posts were so consequential to you, why don't link to them? Not everybody hangs around her 24j/7 do know which essay or comment was so terribly awful.
Ouch, ouch, I am hurt and leave now. /s
https://www.euronews.com/live
"Jaw dropping posts of a very few"
If that's all it takes, then perhaps it's best you go. You are obviously pretty thin skinned.
I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance. - e.e.cummings
I missed the whole
brouhaha about Warren ducking out the back door. Why do you call criticism of Warren who is just another weaselly Democratic pol 'piling on'? I think this is what happens when people start thinking that individual politicians are saviors who will lead us all out bondage. A pol is a pol. Identifying and investing in the imagined persona of a pol is always going to lead to getting burned. I learned this the hard way with Obama.
I never believed Warren's populist anti-Wall Street shtick. The fact that she endorsed The Mad Bomber says it all. Getting all tweaked about people's reaction to her not wanting to deal with the Bernie supporters just shows what this pol is about. Since I had not believed in her sincerity and thought she was the designated progressive anti-bankster Dem. the party trotted out it does not surprise me at all. Interesting times when all the so called Dem. progressive's in congress have shown what they really are and it's not democratic. 'Don't follow leaders and watch the parking meters'.
I have enjoyed your presence and posts here. I hope you reconsider leaving. I think that most people were disappointed in her endorsement and this just added insult to injury. A very few post's does not invalidate cc99%. Closed minds do not get opened if you insist that everyone accept your interpretation of the intentions and reasons of a political candidate's behavior.
^^^THIS!!!^^^
A most excellent comment, Shaz!
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Grivalja has changed his endorsement to Clinton
Clinton?
Sanders' First Congressional Backer Flips to Clinton
Why is that? Under which pressure do they do it? Wow, so disappointing.
https://www.euronews.com/live
Merkley effectively did the same thing.
I'm sure that these pols are under a ton of pressure from within the party establishment. I don't know what kind of leverage they are using, but they may be able to deny seats on committees, or threats of primary challenges, who knows.
The amount of bullying that Sanders supporters have received however from a candidate who is supposedly such a strong nominee is pretty telling. In 2008, 50 out of Clinton's 250+ superdelegates flipped before the convention. But most Clinton supporters -- including the superdelegates -- weren't formally released until the convention. For all the hits that Obama takes, he and his people showed a lot more class in 2008 than the Clinton team in this cycle.
There's things I don't agree with here either.
State your opinion. Move the fuck on.
You've decided to really move the fuck on. Fine. Whatever. If that's what's right for you…You could just take a break. You could just realize and know that the people here, anywhere on the internet have little impact on your actual life and as such, the interactions with them should be seen in the same light.
if that sounds harsh, oh well. Maybe the problem wasn't these people. Maybe the problem lies with you. I spent large stretches of time avoiding the cesspool of the prior place. I've had some interesting conversations here at times, but I will be damned if I am going to let this place, or these people affect my mood and my well being and carry that away from any time I spend online. Screw that.
Let see if I can headline this for you -
Some people on the internet disagreed with me so I left.
No that's a bit too basic and simple. Not enough flare.
Or how about.
Some people on the internet made a big deal out of something that they took a certain way that I didn't so i used that as an excuse to try to shame a bunch of people and conflate the argument, and attention whore myself by declaring how awful some people are and how I am not coming back to grace those people with my presence.
There it is. That's the flare and drama.
I never saw the point of these diaries over at t-o-p, and I don't see the point in this one. Drama and attention.
As I showed my ex, you want to leave, there's the door. And when she backtracked, I showed her the door even if it did take her weeks to finally use it. So go or stay. I am done with your posts even if you remain.
I counter the GBCW, with a FOSP. But I will be nice enough not to tell you what FOSP means - unless someone else asks me.
Now, my grandmother would have likely had something different to say…
Bless Your Heart! - That was for you grandma.
Enquiring minds want to know...
What is FOSP?
I am going to guess
F*ck Off Stupid Person
Note: I am only guessing the acronym, I am not involving myself in the disagreement above
When I was a kid, Republicans used to red scare people, now it's the Democrats. I am getting too damn old for this crap!
Close
Site Poster was what I was thinking given I mentioned dismissing them in a semi reverse GBCW.
But stupid person works…I wasn't going for the double insult but I like the way you think in this moment.
Please stay
People make mistakes and get wound up. We need cool heads when that happens.
We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg
i think
you should stay. I enjoy your contributions.
You just veered away from the herd on this issue. And yes, there is a herd mentality here, just as there is everywhere on the intertubes, even on cooking and gardening sites. If you cross the herd, you will get trampled. That's just the way it is. You learn either to live with it, or to keep non-herd opinions to yourself.
Yanno, if it's purity of posted comments...
I hear there is a great purity blog and it may be just what you are looking for. It's called DailyKos /s
Orwell was an optimist
This seems appropriate so I am just gonna leave it here...
People really should try to be more like Tim...
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
Thanks for posting
this cartoon, Alpha.
Admittedly, it's lesson is a hard one to put into practice, but, it's so true.
(Clearly, it applies to moi, as well.)
Have a good one!
Mollie
A Tribute: 'Lily, Keeping The Promise Alive,' National Mill Dog Rescue
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
That damn Tim.
I hate him!!!
There have been a lot of times I have liked your viewpoint,
PastorAgnostic, and your doggie avatar is FABulous, so I hope you'll stay.
This was not one of your better efforts, though. Nor the post that led to this one, when you really got on people's cases about being mad at Liz. I agree that Liz should be careful in public, we all have to be unfortunately. I just didn't think you needed to say it so vehemently hereabouts. I'm sure she could have engaged with protestors or a subset thereof if she had wanted - they engage all the time when campaigning. But I'm not worked up about her choices either.
At any rate, stay or go, I wish you all the best and hope you find a blogging home.
Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.
This is silly. I was there...
I'm a Bernie fan and voted for Warren but I have always been sort of meh on her. She used to be a Republican and she is from Oklahoma. I've always thought her fight for the little man was a tad inauthentic and a tad opportunistic. Bernie was never ever a Republican.
I've been to this club several times and Warren didn't avoid anything. The WWII Club has a large function room in the back where there is a digital projector, PA sound, etc for functions. This room also has a separate entrance where everyone usually enters except WWII staff who can transit through a hallway attached to the bar in front. Warren showed a short slide-show of her family etc and gave a brief talk in the back function room. Then she went to the front where the bar is and took questions from individuals and took pics. I stood just a few feet from her but I didn't have time to stand in the line to talk to her. The line wrapped around the bar and she was taking quite a bit of time with each person. If you were a protester and wanted to give her a piece of your mind, you certainly could have stood in line and talked with her. The guy in this photo with the cardboard sign was screaming outside almost the whole time. Sign said he was disabled and from Alaska. His behavior was definitely threatening. I was surprised that there was zero security. None. I walked into the bar and walked right up to her. Not even a bar bouncer around.
Anyone could have entered either room, back or front, so I don't know what the fuss is all about. Is she supposed to run a gauntlet of protesters like some gang initiation or something? There were many more protesters at the beginning but they thinned fairly quickly. Perhaps they thought the backroom function was it, but she was there for over 2 hours.
You should also remember that this event took place mere hours after the massacre in Orlando. Like I said, I've never been a massive fan of Warren, but I think the criticism over her appearance at this event is unwarranted. To have a major Mass pol come to this (Western) part of the state is a rarity.
Pics and report: Warren at World War II Club.
Wow, thank you for writing this
and to me then, the "failure" here was maybe media coverage of the event. And while that still means bad optics if some picture had been taken in front of the place with the Alaska guy screaming, that makes me think it's almost more media spin than Warren deliberately avoiding that optic herself? And Secret Service avoiding the screaming guy does make some sense, although not like they don't see that all the time. Gawd. So many ways this kind of crap can be spun and analyzed and dissected because we seem to HAVE to do that now, with everything!
So now I'm less pissed at Warren, more pissed at myself now for not reading as much about her Republican past as I should have (Dumb, although I'm just as glad I didn't buy her book), and wondering how the idea of pissing off Bernie supporters helps someone by not getting any shots of any her engagement with Sanders supporters who DID question her? Another stupid Shillary "campaign" move? Maybe to tarnish Warren just a bit with the Left too, to remind us all how hopeless she and her husband have made us all
feel.
I admit, I am still pissed that Warren endorsed HRC, but it makes me wonder now how this got started. And I feel played again, dammit.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
As for Warren and Republican
I would have gotten over that, really. Anyone willing to truly stand up to the banks gets my support. Her endorsement of Shillary, on the other hand, pre-empts that. If she were willing to truly stand up to the banks, she would not be supporting Shillary.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
Hmm. I once read something that went like this...
All politicians need to be held accountable.
Whether that takes the form of protest, strongly worded letters, or being voted out of office, none of them are exempt. People are rightfully angry about what Warren did, and I honestly don't think that any politicians should be able to shut out criticism due to "safety concerns."
I think that we need to step back, forget that this is Warren, and consider if we'd say the same thing if Bush, Trump, or Cruz snuck in to an event through the back door to avoid protesters. I think that most liberals would consider them cowards for adopting those kinds of tactics. There are consequences for unpopular actions, and critical voices deserve to be heard.
Yes, all politicians should take seriously the threat of violence, but they have absolutely do not have the right to avoid their constituents and separate themselves off from those that disagree with them. That is how we end up with political cliques and insular representatives that stand for the 1% and not the people.
If we are not free to address concerns then skinheads win
and it appears that questioning someone's policy after being a loyal and devoted supporter on actual policy positions is unacceptable. Personally, if this is the new normal you and others endorse, where policies and positions can change on a dime after collecting hours of time spent campaigning; donations, advocacy for the candidate, and they can engage in a complete volte face: and you use a headline from a foreign publication to close down debate or the raise of concern, or protest, you have forgotten EVERY precept of this nation.
So we should all be silent and compliant when a beloved public figure goes against her principles, and the reasons she has espoused that made her beloved. You are completely out of line, and a person who never understood this nation to begin with. The protesters are peaceful people. They are folks who supported Ms. Warren. And your post is so deeply offensive I will never read another thing you write.
Wanna leave?
Fine. Wish it was for a better reason than "people disagreed with my and I think they're stupid now."
But let's take a look at the reality of what you posted here. Your argument boils down to what I expect a Hillary supporter to argue. That Warren deserves to be protected from her constituents (yeah, she wasn't meeting them like Jo Cox, she was avoiding them), that "Berniebros" are extremely dangerous (and sexist, why would we be so hateful and violent towards such a great woman after all?), that protesters should be kept far away from politicians, like in "free speech" zones under armed watch. Hell, you're sounding more like a neoliberal right now than a progressive.
Here's an actual comparison: Sanders doesn't hide from his constituents, even though supporters of his political opponents are way more violent, and have much more "valid" reason for shooting him dead. Yet Warren should be afraid of Sanders supporters who are entirely pro-peace and who only want to question Warren on her going against everything she's fought for to back a candidate who would undo everything she's done.
If you want to leave on a note of "berniebros are violent, sexist, racists that can't be trusted," fine. Fuck off. HRC supporters would love to have someone like you join their ranks over at GOS. Then they can parade you around as an actual Sanders supporter who agrees with them about "berniebros."