Clinton and the Democratic Party are about to have a long-overdue day of reckoning.
The brilliant @yvessmith delivers the most detailed case yet why progressives hate Hillary--and might vote Trump: https://t.co/kgeP6kPd6P
— michaelhirsh (@michaelphirsh) June 1, 2016
Over at Politico, Yves Smith writes about a phenomenon which I am also seeing in my contacts. Progressives are saying 'enough is enough' and are saying that they will no longer be a party to the dismantling of our democracy. They have been used and abused and are no longer willing to vote between the lesser of two evils. After all, the lesser of two evils is subjective. How to quantify evil? Is it the methodical destruction of our planet and culture by the neo-lib and neo-con uber capitalist failure? Or the possibility of electing an unknown, undisciplined narcissist? The evil you know vs. the evil you don't know.
By contrast, the Democratic Party in the Clinton and Obama administrations has consistently embraced and implemented policies that strip workers of economic and legal rights to benefit investors and the elite professionals that serve them. Over time, the “neoliberal” economic order—which sees only good, never bad, in the relentless untrammeling of capital and the deregulation of markets—has created an unacceptable level of economic insecurity and distress for those outside the 1 percent and the elite professionals who serve them.
The result is that the U.S. economy is becoming lethal to the less fortunate, according to the New York Times, which reported this week that U.S. death rates have risen for the first time in a decade. The increase in death rates among less educated whites since 2001 is roughly the size of the AIDS epidemic. One cause, the opioid epidemic, resulted from Purdue Pharma overselling the effectiveness of reformulated OxyContin, then recommending higher dosages when it failed to work properly, which experts deemed a prescription for creating addicts, according to a number of lawsuits. This was permitted by the U.S. government, leading to thousands of unnecessary deaths. Despite President Barack Obama’s Panglossian claim that the economy is doing well, the spike in suicides to levels over those during the financial crisis belies that.
Yet the Clinton campaign is in such denial about this that it has become vitriolic in its verbal and tactical attacks on Sanders and his supporters—rather than recognizing that the stunning success of his campaign is proof of their abject policy failures. The message is clear: The Clintons believe, as Bill himself put it, that the true progressives have nowhere to go.
They are counting on us to follow the crumbs to the wicked witches house. I think this will be the year that progressives recognize that they have been enabling abusive treatment and will take their future into their own more capable hands.
I encourage you to read Ives Smith's entire piece. It is a brilliant analysis of where progressives are politically. A good description of between a rock and a hard place.
Comments
Yves' website, nakedcapitalism.com is always worth reading
Solid content, on a wide range of issues.
She's awesome, particularly in this piece
I guess this is Politico's idea of "opposing viewpoints", heh. They've always struck me as very neoliberal (at best).
Smith has her finger on the pulse, if nothing else. I can't even begin to find the words to describe my revulsion and that of others on my social media feeds--but damned if a lot of them don't feel exactly the way Smith lays it out. I was ok until it started looking like Trump has been snagged by the warmongering right. I started having flashbacks of the Cheney wing of the Bush Administration....
Thanks for alerting us to this article.
I used to rely on bobswern to alert me to the interesting things she wrote. BTW, her blog website is Naked Capitalism.
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/
I wish Bob would come here and be very
active.
Yeah I always loved his diaries
And BOY did he take grief. All the "make sure you have your flak jacket on! Incoming!" stuff the Hillaryfolk would say every time there was a Hillary diary, so that they could pretend the world was quaking in fear of all us BernieBros and our Clockwork Orange-level ultraviolence, really applied to the mountain of crap bobswern would have to take.
"The suspense is terrible! I hope it continues!" - Wilde
The Democratic National Convention will be the intervention.
If they continue on they lose. The Democratic Party is going to have to hit rock bottom before they change their ways. One day they will get tired of being sick and tired and do something different.
There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.. This...is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.--John Adams
that's good. I'm borrowing Democratic National Intervention
it's what's needed.
Well, sure.
Two thoughts:
1) No thoughts of voting for Jill Stein among these people? Did "Yves Smith" think of asking?
2) What's to be done about Trump's crew of violent white supremacist followers?
“When there's no fight over programme, the election becomes a casting exercise. Trump's win is the unstoppable consequence of this situation.” - Jean-Luc Melanchon
The problem with voting for Stein
Is getting the votes counted. Many states only count write in votes for candidates who has filed some paperwork. I'm compiling a list of deadlines and web links by state, but the candidates themselves have to file the forms.
We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg
Otherwise you could find yourself elected to
a position you had no idea you were running, likely wouldn't want to serve in and probably not qualified for. Assuming that most candidates are actually qualified for the offices they run for.
Jill is on the ballot in some states,
so some can vote for her without needing to write in. Here in CO she is.
Currently only 21 states, at least as of April
Don't know if they have gotten on more recently.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
I donated money
to the Green Party's Ballot Access Committee; they're pretty close in several states, only about 6 states are in the unlikely column (and they're states that the GOP will likely take easily anyway). They're working on it, trust me.
That is great to hear, thanks for letting me know!
I am thinking that if Sanders does not get the Nominee and the Libertarian entering the race a 4 way race could result in a win for Sanders, he has probably the broadest cross party appeal of all 4 of the potential candidates.
I would love to know the inside talk in the Sanders camp about Stein's invite. That's gotta be some interesting conversation.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
There are plenty of problems with trying to make Stein work out.
But I assume that with sufficient humanpower and effort they can all be overcome.
“When there's no fight over programme, the election becomes a casting exercise. Trump's win is the unstoppable consequence of this situation.” - Jean-Luc Melanchon
Good point on the first thought.
On the second, I can see a number of possibilities. First though, I would like to thank Trump for bringing these people out into the open. The US has chosen to be blind and silent abut this ugly underbelly of our society. Making people aware of the problem is a step towards neutering it.
Thoughts:
1. Trump will distance himself from these people as fast as he can once they have served there purpose. (Because some people like to make the fascist argument, I will add this: even Hitler got rid of the Brown Shirts once they had served their purpose.) Remember that Trump has made two efforts in the past to run for the presidency. He knows marketing and figured the way to get where he wants to go which meant going for groups that largely remain hidden. Notice that since his "nomination" he has been doing some back tracking, not enough to lose those voters but enough to now appeal to a larger audience.
2. There have been acts of violence at both Trump and Clinton rallies (the ones at HRC rallies are not widely advertised.) Does Trump encourage this? In many ways, yes. He likes the carnival aspect of his rallies On the other hand, Bill Clinton has also promoted racism and intolerance at his rallies on the behalf of HRC (would he do this if they did not share a common ideology?). The racism that the Clintons promote is mostly silent, but can effectively be seen in their policies, words and actions. Is the hidden racism somehow better than the racism we can see? Is violence in words somehow worse than violence in policy?
3. Exactly what are we afraid that these "violent white supremacist followers" are going to do? I am pretty sure that the FBI has been able to expand their lists of people to watch based on participants at some Trump rallies (whereas, they will miss the ones attending Clinton rallies). Is this minority going to change laws that is is okay to be racist or discriminate against other groups? Occupy federal buildings? Conduct protests that turn into riots with police in military gear? If the answer is yes to those questions, then please explain how it is different from what is already happening.
4. Is it okay to be racist abroad as long as we make it look like we are not racist at home? Is bombing the hell out of other countries and peoples making us safer? In Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs being fed and having shelter comes before safety. We know that the Clinton policies will lead to more people looking to deal with how to survive physically, and that they will disproportionately affect minorities. Most US Americans are half a step away from a total survivability disaster now.
5. If you take a closer look at the HRC horde, you will find there are more people there who have a brown shirt attitude than you will find in the disparate groups that follow Trump. Most won't care or even notice as rights are stripped away. Listen to them holler now about "sore loser" Sanders as their voting rights are being diminished.
6. You know that "do-nothing" Congress we currently have. If Trump is elected, they will be very busy trying to stop whatever he may try to do (often things that are to the left of HRC) which may keep them from passing even more discriminatory legislation. If HRC is elected, that legislation will pass because it is Republican in nature as is she.
I think I wandered a bit there from my original intention to answer you second question. I do not care much at all for Trump, but if necessary I will vote for him over HRC.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass
TY for point #5
You gave words to a feeling that I've had for quite a while but could no clearly elucidate.
I don't believe that all Hillary supporters are brownshirts but I suspect about a third of them are. Nevada state convention is the most visible example of that philosophy but there's a lot of it out there.
Just because I'm paranoid, it doesn't mean that they aren't out to hurt me. A lot of Clintonistas truly want to hurt Bernicrats.
Life is strong. I'm weak, but Life is strong.
I agree that not all HRC followers have that mentality.
It is the other ones that scare me more though because they do not seem to be aware of what they are agreeing to by accepting HRC.
Nevada is a very, very good example. HRC people were aware that the news stories were propaganda designed to smear Sanders's supporters and by inference, if not right out, Sanders himself. How many chose to deny the lies? How many came forward to correct the record? Only one that I know of (from a TYT interview). One out of 1600 plus HRC supporters who were there just seems to show that truth is not something they are interested in. If they are not interested in truth, then they will follow blindly down whatever dark alley they are lead.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass
Two sides of the same coin
I've said for years (decades?) now that Democrats and Republicans are two sides of the same coin. The common cry from Democrats was "False equivalency!"
I've now realized where I was wrong though. Only a certain portion of the Democrats are no different than Republicans. Clinton supporters are indistinguishable from Republicans from where I stand. That portion is a hate group, with nothing but vile words for anyone who doesn't fall in lockstep with their marching.
On the flipside, I have newfound respect for the Sanders supporting "DINO" wing of the party, and hope that they either fix or leave it completely.
That's how I'm leaning
If I can't vote for Bernie, then Stein will prob get my vote.
I cannot vote for trump or any other republican, ever.
Ditto here
Being in California, I have that option. And Stein's views/Green platform matches up pretty well with both my own views and Bernie's policies -- there may be a hair's difference between the Greens and Bernie on Middle Eastern foreign policy, but that's about the only difference I had with Sanders as well.
What’s to be done about violent “Pentagon supremacist” followers
who are already in a position to hand down decisions that it’s appropriate to shoot up MSF hospitals or murder pregnant Afghan women?
A vote for Hillary is an endorsement of all the policies of the current administration.
Agree 100%
"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"
Jill who?
Nobody has ever heard of her. And by nobody I mean the 95% of voters that rarely (never) follows politics.
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
Great article.
I liked this bit best:
Hillary's record rises to Bushian levels of venal incompetence. As President, she could very well be an even worse disaster that W.
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
A Message For The Democratic Party
Ignore Bernie at your own peril.
Here it is clear as a bell, if you hacks at the DNC decide to push through Clinton or in any way try to supplant her with someone else other than Bernie then you are done. I will never,never,never,never,never,never,never,never,never,never vote for Clinton and the same holds true for millions
In a national election she could not get elected dog catcher and is not honest enough to do even that job
I just have
two words for the Dem. party, Bernie Sanders. if they leave me with no choice I might vote Stein or even Trump its on them if they want a Dem. to be POTUS.
Agree, no Bernie, no vote
I will very happily (and will be able to sleep at night) voting for Jill Stein.
To the DNC who's favorite comment is progressives, fuck them where are they going g to go.
Well Fuck You, to the Green Party
Bernie = first choice, then...
I don't yet know if I'd vote for HRC next, or vote/write-in Jill Stein or Gary Johnson, but in no way will I vote for Donald Trump.
Never Trump
I've been telling people to hold their noses and vote for Hilary if she becomes the candidate. I may be changing my stance on that but it definitely wouldn't be for Trump of all people. My best-case scenario at this point is if both conventions are split and result in either Bernie as the candidate or Bernie and someone else on the Con side as third-party candidates. I think a 4-way Dance for the US Title(sorry long-time wrestling fan) would result in a competitive race. Or it could be an epic disaster. Let's find out.
" "I chose to change facts, reality, and the meaning of words, in order to make a much larger point." -
Paul RyanJohn Oliver "Please consider the disastrous nature --
of such a strategy as it has operated (with the consent of the vast majority of the nice liberals) over the past thirty-six years. at any rate, Gopal Balakrishnan:
Each time, the nice liberals tell us that we have to vote for a neoliberal conservaDem or it's OMIGOD THE END OF THE WORLD. The actual result in each case is that the world survives, but things get worse because either 1) the Republican wins and the nice liberals pine for those glorious days when a neoliberal conservaDem was in power and everything was "okay" or 2) the Democrat wins and the nice liberals cheer on the Democrat leader while he or she does all the bad things the Republican would have done except maybe sugarcoated with some nice small-time charitable donations here and there.
In this regard I do not recommend a vote for Clinton or for Trump. What has been lost with lesser-of-evils voting is the idea of fighting for one's own interests, and so that must be regained, election or no election.
“When there's no fight over programme, the election becomes a casting exercise. Trump's win is the unstoppable consequence of this situation.” - Jean-Luc Melanchon
I agree 100%, Cassodorius!
I also agree with Cass
We have been voting for LOTE far too long which has resulted in more and more whacky Republicans as nominees. Voting for HRC (should she get the nomination) will only prolong the rightward drift of the political equation. I, for one, am not willing to continue this drift anymore.
agree completely LOTE voting has been a diastrous strategy for
99% of the America people, And it hasn't been so great for people in other nations either.
No matter which evil we vote for as the "Lesser Evil" the ruling class wins and we loose.
When we finally cut loose from that strategy and free our minds from the false choice that they are forcing down our throats, they won't know what hit them.
They will raise a huge howl, and we should simply laugh at them.
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons
The world will be fine after we're gone though.
But let's say it's the 'end of the world' like they tell us.
Screw four or eight more years. Kickstart it now and let it burn.
Wow!
What a terrific commentary by the always excellent Yves Smith. If Trump gets elected over Clinton, the Democratic party has only itself to blame for shoving this flawed and corrupt candidate upon the people. IMHO, the party deserves to die if they do and I will not be among the mourners.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Here is a comment to the article:
Uneffinbelievable.
They can have her.
To all of Yves comments I would have to add that IMO
it's not a question of simply having an animosity towards HRC's record and deciding that she is not representative of your views, what has happened in this election cycle is that more progressives became aware of the fact(s):
1. The Democratic Party doesn't CARE what the view of any individual voter is - they were perfectly happy to award the super delegates, debase themselves by publicly begging Hillary to run, clearing the field on her behalf, stacking the deck against the contender who did show up, and resort to the basest sort of racist and sexist smears against both the alternate candidate and his voters.
2. The Democratic Party is at least as morally bankrupt and corrupt as the Republicans if not more so and were and are perfectly willing to throw all concepts of government accountability, transparency and oversight by both the public and the Congress out with Hillary's bathwater.
Those observations are what's new on this go-round. The Democratic Party revealed itself in a very unflattering form and triggered a reaction of abhorrence and disgust that it's going to be difficult to recover from over the long haul. I think a lot of people feel like the core of the Party is so corrupt that it's impossible to save and that the future of the 99% most likely be better served with a completely new Party or possibly trying to re-vitalize and re-energize the Greens.
" “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR "
Simply by virtue of his candidacy
and by being the same Bernie over decades of public service, Bernie ripped back the curtain on the malignant corruption that infests the Democratic party. He did not have to say a word. He just let the establishment of the party and Hillary herself reveal themselves for what they are and that is hopelessly corrupt.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
A brilliant part of that was
"I don't care about her damn emails!" Meaning, I don't have to be the one to expose it to you, and take the blame for doing so. It will expose itself, and be more obvious that way.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
Bernie focuses on issues and trusts FBI to do their job
The media always forgets the second part of his sentence..I'm sick of hearing about those damn e-mails, let's focus on the issues.
Bernie is right to let law enforcement take care of the wrong doing. He can call out her judgement, which he has done, and her wavering position on platform. But let the law take care of the crime. It also shows that Bernie supports the agency to do its job without political interference, which I think is an important quality in a President.
Hillary's Foreign Policy Speech
Hillary's recent 'Foreign Policy Speech' is a perfect example. She and her minions think it makes her 'appear' more muscular than Trump/Sanders, but that speech served instead to remind us of what a sociopath Clinton is in regard to the 'New World Order'... it was creepy.. and yet, the Democrats hailed it (via the MSM) as an accomplishment of great worth... Really?.. OMFG...
Earth to the DNC, you've got a problem!
Obama opened my eyes...
He did not even pretend to value the progressive ideals of the Democratic Party once he was elected. After his first term hubby and I became (I)ndependent registered voters. Fool me once...
Some of us were credulous, hoping for change
and then hoping some more. But the double balance scales tipped to the worse. Again. And then Bernie rose, and demonstrated the level of corruption within the Democratic (sic) Party.
I am still willing to help with a major course correction.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
Bush and Republican bashing has allowed the Democratic
Party to draw attention away from its own venality and perfidy.
Bush too, now, has God on his side
that is, his administration is now approved of by our leading Democrats, as in "Colin Powell did it so it's ok".
Both parties are corrupt
I'm not even sure there is a division among the politicians (R&D) anymore.
I have said it before and I'll say it till they stick their boots on my throat, "HRC is worse than GWB."
She is every bit as bought off, she's corrupt, she's a liar, she's bungled everything she's ever laid her hands on. Tell me ONE damn thing she's ever accomplished politically and socially that has ever helped anyone but herself and her Bill and her fucking Wall Street Masters.
I won't vote for Trump. But I sure the fuck won't have anyone tell me who to vote for. And that goes for the evil DNC, too. I'm sick of Wyden and Brown sending me emails to give them money. They haven't even read my emails and letter to them about my registration fraud case.
Oh and there's no election guys. So many people, including me and my spouse, were not able to vote due to registration fraud. People can pretend there's still some election going on, but that's even turning into a peasant mentality. Oh, look the masters are letting us vote for the racist or the liar.
Yeah, that's some freedom and choice ya got that Murrica.
Election reform. Because until you have a voice, it doesn't matter a fuck about parties.
They are having a party. We are not invited.
Fuck Hillary/Trump. That's not a choice. They know it, we know it. But "we" just don't have any journalists, we don't have any rules or laws, we have nothing.
"Love One Another" ~ George Harrison
John Pilger, a journalist I respect madly has this to say
about Hillary vs Trump (and US policies in general are pilloried:
https://newmatilda.com/2016/03/23/john-pilger-why-hillary-clinton-is-mor...
Thanks for the Pilger link, I'm also a fan and....
agree with him. The war with Russia is the war Hillary's neo con endorsers are hoping for. Lots of money for the MIC.
And there's no winning a nuclear war
Russia won't start it, but they will finish us if we attack them.
Hillary CANNOT be elected, even if Trump is the alternative.
Bernie or Bust!
ooooh, thank you for this tasty tidbit : )nt
"Love One Another" ~ George Harrison
Let It Out
You can't keep holding everything in, Janet. Next time tell us how you really feel.
This I will not buy, not from anyone...
That a progressive-minded person would vote for Trump; doing so simply constitutes automatic disqualification as a progressive. Same goes for voting for Hillary Clinton. People can call themselves what they choose; Trump calls himself amazing and awesome, and claims he has a "very good brain". Sayin' it don't make it so.
Voting for what you perceive as the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil - both a progressive failure and a moral cop-out. There will be no progressives voting for Trump.
"If I sit silently, I have sinned." - Mossadegh
Sure, I would. The purpose would be to make sure
Hillary did not win. And no, I won't be "disqualified" from anything.
maybe no "progressives,"
but there will be a lot of Dems voting for the Trumpster.
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
I do not 'self identify'
with Progressive in it's current usage. I never have. To me it was a Democratic pol cop- out from back in the bushie days when liberal was a dirty word. I would say there will be no true Scotsmen who are real 'progressives' voting for The Mad Bomber. My Democratic corrupt as hell state and city government all ran as Progressive Democrat's. I worked to help get them elected and now I'm trying to figure out how to get them gone daddy gone.
Vichy Demorat's are not progressive unless you think going back to the Gilded Age and heating up The Cold War is progress. I voted for Jill Stein in 2012 and she got less then 1% of the vote. I see no effort by the Greens to be a serious alternative to the duopoly. Why haven't they used this farce of a primary time to get out and make themselves known and joined in the fray? Their too much like the People Judean Front for me.
I don't know who I'm voting for but I could careless about not being a progressive. Hey I'm an 'ideological purist' far lefty. If I choose to use my vote to burn down the Dem. house of cards it's my choice. After decades of being a card carrying member of my county Democratic party it's time to call these rat bastards what they are and it's not progressive. I'm done. Senator Merkley who ironically was as a OR statehouse member a moderate will get my vote as he has actually worked for democratic principles. I'm no longer a partisan and I never was comfortable calling my self a progressive.
Mad Bomber?
I've seen that twice now. Either George Metesky or Henry Kissinger....or Hillary?
I do get the People Judean Front though (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) but don't see any benefit in bashing Greens. How dare they not have saved us!
"If I sit silently, I have sinned." - Mossadegh
back before
the Great Infusion, some of us here came to refer to Clinton II as The Mad Bomber.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgcd1ghag5Y]
Fits
I guess my confusion, sadly, is because it could fit so many.
Military madness is killing my country - Graham Nash
"If I sit silently, I have sinned." - Mossadegh
Here's one
I'm quoted in that piece. You can read the longer argument from Naked Capitalism that my quote is pulled from.
I am a long-term leftist, who moved "right" to the Democratic Party upon adulthood to vote for the lesser evil D in Reagan vs. Mondale, et al. I LOTE evil voted for Bill. I have voted for the Democrat in every Presidential election of my life.
My argument to the Greens voter is simple: voting Green won't change anything. I get the idea of giving some third party the 5% they need for Federal funding, and if you're in a state where either Trump or Clinton is guaranteed to get those electoral votes, then do it. But otherwise, this isn't a simple matter of LOTE. I think it's clear that Trump actually IS the lesser of two evils. But more than that, installing him potentially weakens the corporate hold over BOTH parties. Even if he governs as a bog standard Republican, at least we purge the Clintons from the Democratic Party and weaken it enough to make it feasible for progressives to either take it over or set up an alternative to take it out.
Clinton is more of a war monger. She's more personally corrupt. She's just as racist, but by being more polite about it, she's more dangerous. She has actually facilitated the deaths and torment of millions -- not just talked about it. She may even be less pro-choice, in belief and in practice. She's a member of Ted Cruz's prayer group, after all. AND if a Republican is president, it gives the corporatist Democrats less cover to do corporatist things. They are more likely to fight back against Social Security cuts if Trump proposes them than if Clinton does.
I was kicked out of Brownies for wearing a Eugene McCarthy button. I was investigated by the FBI in middle school for checking Das Capital out of the library. I lost the Telluride because when asked to choose between Ford and Carter (had I been old enough to vote) I said I'd make the anarchistic choice and pick Ford, the less competent choice, to bring the system down. (Hey, I was sixteen.) If the DNC and the corporate media rams Clinton into the nomination, the politically leftist tactic in response should be to vote for Trump. Because we need one of the two major parties to reflect non-1% voters. Breaking the Democratic Party, at that point, would be the most effective Greater Good possible.
I understand many people don't agree with me. But to claim I'm a secret Republican or something misses the point. There is a robust argument to vote for Trump against Clinton from the left. We're out there. Moreover, only if enough of us say this and are prepared to follow through is there any hope of getting the Democratic elite to back down and nominate Bernie. If they think the grift can can continue, they'll continue fleecing the rubes. They have to know that we will crush them, turn the party into dust, make it so weak that Goldman no longer needs to funds its candidates and pay former D pols to lobby current D pols, drown neoliberal, pseudo-Democratic think tanks in a bathtub. This is an actual war, and Clintonism is our enemy. We have to credibly threaten to smash all their corruption-filled rice bowls, before Hillary takes office, ends net neutrality, launches simultaneous land wars with Russia and Iran, and drafts our sons and daughters to fight in them. If you think I'm being hyperbolic, you haven't been paying attention. Listen to what she has been saying herself. Look at who is backing her.
Desperate times call for desperate measures. This is a desperate time.
Well said. I do not think most people get the
significance of what will happen to the Internet under HRC. I will take a bet that the Internet is now number one on her infamous hit list. People need to remember that this is the person who voted for the Patriot Act, not once but twice.
And let's not forget the Gold Standard :
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass
And under TPP, climate change will accelerate
And the priority of multinational corporate "anticipated profits" will eliminate any Common Good efforts to protect the 99%.
It is not just the 99% of this country either.
IIRC, there are 12 countries involved with TPP. On top of the previous trade agreements, much of the world is going to be caught up in he corporate net. The other half we are bombing.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass
Pitiful
It's a very sad and shameful state of affairs our "leaders" have gotten our country into.
I will not vote for Trump
but you make a fine argument, sir.
"When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained." - Mark Twain
Help me out
LOTE? Might make sense if I knew.
Agreed on Clinton, and desperate times. Not into suicide pacts for progress though. I'll watch it all go down but won't be cheering anyone on. I'm more of a personal conscience person.
"If I sit silently, I have sinned." - Mossadegh
that
LOTE thing means "lesser of two evils."
Acronyms are these days beyond all control, plunging the language ever deeper into the sewer.
Thanks
Yeah, people are way too often caught up in their own bubbles & forget about diversity.
More of a fog than a sewer for me.
"If I sit silently, I have sinned." - Mossadegh
His progressive acquaintenances can't be that smart if
they're going to vote for Trump. Voting for Trump over Clinton, or vice versa, would be the mother of all lesser evil voting. The best choice, imo, is to reject both candidates. This is a game smart people should not be playing.
"Smart"?
......or just too wrapped up in portraying themselves as deeply analytical to make morally rational choices?
Rationalize (use without object) -
to invent plausible explanations for acts, opinions, etc., that are actually based on other causes
"If I sit silently, I have sinned." - Mossadegh
they're
smart, 'cause, like, they sit around all day and talk about money 'n stuff. Which doesn't exist. Mad group agreement of gibbering primates.
They don't even communicate in English. To wit:
Vote for Trump
Not very likely...
" In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy "
It's a pissed off day
in the neighborhood. We need to start seeing more media about Jill Stein. The more I listen to her the more I like.
Beware the bullshit factories.
Hey boriscleto...
I like your neighborhood. Mr Rodgers knows best. I will not vote for either one.
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
That sounds so Seussian
One fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish. I will not vote for either one. Or four or five. None of the above?
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
have you not read this seuss work?
i would not like them
here or there.
i would not like them anywhere.
i do not like
Hairball and Hill.
i do not like them; i need a pill.
i do not like them
in a house.
i do not like them
with a mouse.
i do not like them
here or there.
i do not like them anywhere.
i do not like
Hairball and Hill.
i do not like them; give me a pill.
Try them Sam I am
I tried them and they did not sit well
with them this country will go to hell
Beware the bullshit factories.
great comment, hits nail on head
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons
"The Vichy Left"
A little Godwin, but good term.
Beware the bullshit factories.
An old fashioned term
but it clearly defines a lot of Democrats.
Life is strong. I'm weak, but Life is strong.
no one
with a functioning cerebrum could even consider voting for Trump.
What a load. Bunch of smug, self-important wankers. Onanism uber alles.
Clinton is the same candidate
They will both destroy any remaining chance at DEmocracy: we might as well assert ourselves because after this, we won't have internet capacity for this kind of Sanders campaign, and as you may have noticed, everything will be shut down.
Anyone noticing that genocide is already happening? Poor people dying in massive numbers, children drinking lead laced water, whole communities with no water due to fracking?
Just what do YOU think their "climate change" plan is? Its becoming evident: HRC is allying with Henry "genocide is necessary" Kissinger: Trump is openly Nazi . . . and our media reports nothing. Yes, it can happen here:
So get your asses in gear and phonebank donate canvas your hearts out: and vote for anyone but these two, because either one means grim times ahead, and they are very skilled at this: they've been practicing elsewhere for year.
Regarding Trump,
the article is more about progressives not voting for Hillary, and less about them voting for Trump. It's an option, but the article is not saying most will vote for him.
well,
thank bejeebus we now know what 9 out of 10 of her friends think. To round out the ten, let's hear what another brainiac, Yosemite Sam, has to say:
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_Ua53PJlv8]
&
maybe if she'd read some film books, rather than plundering the people for Goldman Sachs, she would have understood the folly of projecting political realities based upon the opinions of one's own insulated white upper crust urbanoid friends and acquaintances. For Pauline Kael famously observed that she couldn't understand how Nixon won in 1972, because none of her friends voted for him.
Hecate, I have to disagree.
Yves's blog is smart,and her readership includes lots of people from the US and abroad. I've read Naked Capitalism for years,and while I don't agree with every comment posted, I'm continually engaged by the high level of discourse. Most everyone there lately is a devoted Berner,and they approach his platform from the perspective of global economics, social justice, and the perils of the MIC.
the issue
is not whether she's smart, or her readership is smart, or whether there's "a high level of discourse" there. The issue is whether it's prudent to project her opinion and that of her friends to encompass some greater whole. It's not. It's folly. As the Kael experience demonstrates.
As an example, Webber's blog is currently running under 30k a day. Daily Kos is running at around 500k a day. Just sayin'. ; /
Not sure I understand your example.
Yes, TOP has lots of clicks, but right now they're just as homogeneous as S. Webber's smaller enterprise. That's what has happened to public discourse. I would say that perhaps the NC readership has been surprisingly proBernie when I might have predicted a much greater Libetarian bias. Sampling sizes, small cohorts,large cohorts: not surprisingly, tribal members prefer talking among themselves.
the point is
that it is folly for Webber to cite to herself and her 10 best friends as indicative of some tsunami trend among "true progressives," when her wee little site is dwarfed by a behemoth containing folks who, rightly or wrongly, also consider themselves "true progressives," and who would rather eat broken glass, than vote for The Hairball.
That isn't what she's doing
First of all, that Pauline Kael anecdote is spurious. It lingers in part because it feels so satisfying for certain kinds of people to make fun of those in the arts, and it does accurately reflect a mindset that misunderstands social self-selection, cognitive bias, and elite solipsism. People make that kind of mistake all the time. People like Nate Silver, for example, who is doing it right now. People like Paul Krugman. Both are trained in quantitative reasoning, mathematics and statistical analysis, both are allowing bias and self-interest to taint their perspective and analysis.
Yves (I will use her online name out of respect for her work; I assume your IRL name isn't "Hecate) isn't talking about her friends. She's talking about visitors to her site, which is not wee, by the way. More importantly, she is trying to explain to DC insiders why they should not assume progressives will plod to the polls for Hillary Clinton by talking about a particular demographic that DC insiders are most likely to assume WILL back Clinton in the end and best undermines Clinton's argument and assumptions about who is voting for Sanders and why. It sounds like you have never visited Naked Capitalism; perhaps try it sometime. It's got lots of great reporting. Her Politico piece does not reflect her friends, nor does it reflect everybody who comments at Naked Capitalism. She isn't claiming it's a scientifically validated poll. In fact, the polling backs her up, but that isn't penetrating the DC bubble. So she is trying to get through to these guys as best she can. As someone who was quoted in the article and does believe that Clinton is the greater evil who must be kept from power, even if it means voting for Trump, I felt my perspective was well-represented.
But more importantly, I DON'T WANT TO VOTE FOR TRUMP. The best way to get to vote for Bernie is to make it very, very clear to Politico types that if they insist on handing Clinton the nomination, she will lose in November and drag the rest of the party down with her. This is a negotiation, in a sense. Bernie got health centers for Vermont in the ACA negotiations because he could credibly represent to Obama that he might not vote for the bill otherwise. They needed his vote, so eventually they gave him something for his constituents to get his vote. People like me being willing to aggressively assert that we are white, middle-aged, elite educated women who will absolutely refuse to vote for Clinton are doing every other Bernie voter a service, frankly. Staking out a very vocal hard left position of people who are not perceived by DC insiders as "flakey Greens" will help move them to dump Clinton, more than either declaring for Stein or saying you'll hold your nose. They have Stein voters pictured in their heads and factored into their calculations -- I think they underestimate how many will move Green in the face of Trump v. Clinton, but still, it isn't going to scare them. The kinds of voters Yves was describing -- long term Democratic voters they have absolutely been counting on to "come home" -- NOT coming home, and not only not coming home but voting for Trump is a real threat, one which, again, is showing in the polling already. Painting these guys a picture that isn't some hipster dude in his parents' basement drinking cold brew coffee might help reach them.
That's what this is about.
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