Where Trump is winning
The Dems may be right on this issue morally, but politically they are getting killed on it.
But a new report from an influential liberal think tank, provided to The Daily Beast, posits that the party’s decision to cede the “rule of law” ground to Republicans creates “the false dichotomy of America as either a nation of immigrants or a nation of laws”—making the party and its candidates appear soft on enforcement, and potentially weakening future attempts for humanitarian-focused immigration reform.In doing so, writes Tom Jawetz, vice president of immigration policy at the Center for American Progress, supporters of humane immigration policy “have ceded powerful rhetorical ground to immigration restrictionists, who are happy to masquerade as the sole defenders of America as a nation of laws.”
The left may be totally right about the "horrific detention conditions, spiking in-custody deaths of undocumented immigrants", but the fact of the matter is that when people are struggling to "take care of their own" they aren't going to invest much empathy for immigrants.
Making this worse are the calls to abolish ICE.
Whether they are right or wrong on doing this, it still sounds like getting rid of border enforcement. In the unofficial rules of debate "if you are explaining yourself, then you are losing."
Finally, there is the tendency of Democrats to virtue signal on this issue, but it's the wrong issue to virtue signal on. I say that because, like abortion and guns, this isn't a black or white issue. This is an issue that requires a middle-ground compromise, somewhere between open borders and building a wall.
Politically the Dems have been played on this, and even real progressives are looking unable to recognize this fact.
Comments
They won't deal with reasons for migration
Certainly, neither party's leadership will concern themselves with the reasons for people seeking to resettle in the US.
Shh. Let's not talk about the economic warfare we wage throughout the world.
Or our sponsorship of actual regime change or support of dictatorships that oppress the poor and working class all through militarist action.
Or making sure rainforests shrink and committing other ecological outrages.
Let's focus on and blame the victims of our penchant for destabilizing societies and ecosystems especially if they are not white, thus not alright. I mean, after all, they are so scary and we're not coz we're red white and blue, amirite?
Dems should start with talking about
how our support for the corrupt Honduran coup government is partly to blame for the spike in refugees on our border.
If we put pressure on getting a better government there, that would be the better solution for everyone.
However, Dems would have to come to terms with their own complicity.
You could extend that to the other
US-trained narco dictatorships in central America. It's also worth pointing out that NAFTA made it very difficult for small farmers in Mexico to make a living so they came to the US in large numbers. My view is that basic human decency dictates that we deal humanely with refugees, but we also need to fix the messes we have created in latin America. Right now the policy is to screw over the poor of central America and when they show up at our borders treat them as political pawns and cheap labor.
Why do you think
that it is the US doing all of this to them (Central Americans and other migrant countries)?
Why do you think that the people in Central America are all acted upon and none are actors? What makes you believe that they are so helpless?
I've been educating myself about their economies and trade; it happens to be quite interesting.
They are not these hopeless, helpless people that people on this site make them out to be, and they have wide ranging economic activity and even trade with other countries outside of the Americas! Who knew?!!
Geez, reading this site only, without doing any other research, one would think that the entirety of Central America had barely a spoonful of food amongst themselves.
dfarrah
Who hasn't done their research here?
The US has been f'cking with Central American countries and others since its creation. Ever here about William Blum who wrote about the number of coups this country has been involved in? The Honduran coup being the most recent one.
Ever read the Confession of an economic hitmam who described the actions he took to mess with economies? What do you think is happening right now in Venezuela? Or what happened to Libya and Syria during Obama's tenure?
You might want to start your reading with this article that explains why this country does what it does.
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2019/07/michael-hudson-u-s-economic-warf...
I'm sure that you will finally back this statement up since you continue to say stuff like this?
Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.
They are only starving in Venzuela, right?
And Cuba.
And they were starving in Brazil, but now Bolsonaro is in power and they're eating good there again.
But they must still be pretty hungry in those other socialist countries there, too. Right?
What's wrong with them? Don't they know how to act? Instead, they vote in socialist governments. Obviously, we are going to have to teach them how to act.
Try reading Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein and maybe we'll discuss these matters again.
For something shorter, focusing solely on Latin American, try: https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2015/01/24/exporting-fascism-us-imp...
something even shorter
dfarrah could start with reading the comments that he/she is replying to as well as many of the other comments in this and the other essays that talk about immigration. It's almost like there is a point to be made and he/she just skips through pertinent information after finding something in a comment that allows him/her to continue making a point that is never backed up with evidence. And isn't it nice that only dfarrah does any type of research on the subject he/she is posting about. The rest of us? Apparently don't know what we are talking about. Nice slam.
Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.
Nobody answered his/her question
What makes you think they are so helpless? I don't see any research on this. Maybe despite all of the shit we have done, they are not as helpless to do anything about it as we make out.
The worst aspect for me
is the conflation of legal and illegal immigrants. Someone who hops a fence is given the same moral standing as someone who followed the rules and applied for a visa. American visas are incredibly difficult to obtain, and many of those who've gotten them don't appreciate others who didn't follow those rules.
You can't say that out loud at GOS though.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
I get confused when I see news reports of detention centers
When media images show kids and adults in the fenced cages, I have no clue from the reports how they got there. Asylum seekers? Caught crossing the border? Arrested while in American soil ready for deportation? What is the next step in the legal process? Are all detention centers "concentration camps"? Everything gets conflated.
And the context around those in detention centers seem to be that the people are legal, and somehow and somewhere they were picked up for arbitrary reasons. They are all called simply immigrants. And so what happen almost all times is that an anti-illegal immigrant movement transforms to movements against all and any immigrants.
Good questions
On this..
It is not illegal for people to ask for asylum at any border crossing they come to even if they enter the country illegally...or by crossing the border. Trump decided that he would lock up every person seeking asylum and that is when costs skyrocketed. As I say downthread lots of people are making bucko bucks off the detention centers. Immigrants used to be able to apply for asylum and then wait in country for their court hearing where a very high percentage did show up.
Both Obama and Trump said that they would deport people who had committed crimes or had orders to leave the country, but Obama went after the low hanging fruit and more than 56% of his deportations were not criminals. He deported 3 million immigrants during his tenure and set things up legally for Trump's next level.
Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.
OT: in the land of polls
excited about Biden?
this is MSNBC
when did Dems start unsourced polls?
OT but related
I can't remember the exact words, but this morning MSNBC had headlines to this effect: "Boston Globe: Bernie Sanders' New Hampshire firewall may be crumbling". Here's how one of the neoliberal establishment "bloggers" Taegan Goddard reported it :
I expect to see a lot of this kind of crap since the DNC is having debates so early. This is reminiscent of the 2016 Dem primary.
I have a slightly different take on all of this
The Democrats are and have been allowing Trump and the Republicans to dictate which issues have the greatest importance in governance. And neither the Dems nor Trump are right. Trump's shifting of the public discourse to the border and illegal immigration is sucking all the air out of what is really important to most Americans. This does not mean that I am ignoring the horrible conditions under which illegal immigrants have been detained and are being treated. But what I am addressing is the political reality.
If the Democrats really want to win over the hearts and minds of the people, they should be focusing on policies and action that would benefit the greatest number of people in this country. While illegal immigration and the causes of it are problematic, it really does not affect most Americans in their daily lives.
What affects most Americans on a daily basis are the economic worries that the majority of Americans now have about how they can either get or keep a living wage job, to put healthy food on the table for their families, ensure that their children live in a safe environment that includes safe shelter, clean water and environmental security, to ensure that they and their children have the opportunity to improve their lives through education that is free (or at a minimal cost) and open to all, and to be secure that if accident or illness hits a family member that they will receive quality care without being bankrupted by medical bills. If the Democrats focus on these issues and provide more than empty promises, then the Democrats will have the gravitas to gain support on the issue of immigration.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
None of those sound
goals to help the citizenry can be achieved without hurting Big Money. The Dem toadyship certainly won't pay that price. They're grateful to Trump that he supplies a peripheral issue, so they can avoid talking about those things you listed as real vote-getters.
Orwell: Where's the omelette?
Bingo!
I should have incorporated that into my comment. Thanks.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
That's what primaries are for. /nt
None of those sound
goals to help the citizenry can be achieved without hurting Big Money. The Dem toadyship certainly won't pay that price. They're grateful to Trump that he supplies a peripheral issue, so they can avoid talking about those things you listed as real vote-getters.
Orwell: Where's the omelette?
Aw but there's the rub
The democrats know exactly what they need to be doing if they want to win. That they aren't even giving lip service to big ideas should tell everyone that they have no intention of doing anything that will help the little peoples of the country. Right after I first started blogging I kept wondering why they weren't doing. . . . and this and kept saying exactly that. This was in 2005 and people are still saying and asking just that. Nancy has ruled out MFA and she is sticking with making the ACA better or doing anything for climate change. ByeDone has said that he too will continue improving the ACA. Funny how not one democrat has ever talked about making changes to it so that it would help more people.
Another thing people like to say is that democrats haven't or didn't learn anything after the last election. Sure they did. They learned to continue doing what they have been doing since the Clintons came to DC. Suck up to their donors.
Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.
So true
Especially this...
I hope that the people are starting to see this.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Virtue Signaling Without Action Proves Your Values Are Fake.
Democrats talk about 'our values' all the time, then do nothing to uphold them and actually vote to devalue them. It's like the little boy who cried wolf when it comes to the moral high road.
Wearing minority demographics as clothing to "look cool" is also part of the problem - same result - people know the Democratic Leadership's values are fake.
I think it is more grotesque to virtue signal and do nothing than it is to be bereft of virtue or of dubious virtue.
There is a Venn diagram of values, rhetoric and policy which should be in a nice tight, interlocked grouping, but for the Democrats these are three separate circles. On the full political Rep/Dem continuum, the Democrats policy circle sits over in the Republican Venn diagram.
The Democrats values do not intersect with the rhetoric and policy. So they lose credibility at all times.
“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu
That would explain why Pelosi got so mad at AOC
AOC honestly cares about the refugees.
Pelosi only wants to appear that she cares.
AOC exposed Pelosi's duplicity by actually demanding something concrete.
Sure, AOC
cares oh so much about the refugees that she voted against a 4 billion dollar bill.
She would cut the baby in half before saving the baby.
Yep, she cares all-right, just like that staged photo of herself doubling over in agony near some fences where no immigrants were to be found. She must have been doubled over with gas or something.
It's as much a political football for her as it is anyone else.
dfarrah
Blatant ad hominem
invalidates arguments.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Accumulated mass media images
In looking at the mass media imagery of what is happening regarding "immigration", it seems the democrats stand for nothing in terms of policy and solutions. They are purely reactionary and want to treat people right. They seem to be vulnerable to an open borders charge where anybody can come in. While Trump seems to be managing a war on the Southern border. He wants illegals deported which people seem to support, but looks to be brutish about it.
They Would Rather Make Hay With the Situation Than Solve
it.
Back to the piece dkmich posted, I guess. Too much manipulative value with zero policy effort through virtue signaling. It's a given - like a Hollywood story, or the Hero's Journey.
It's a method - a successful method. And before I get castigated for ignoring the Democrats won-lost record over the last few years, that's the not goal. It can't be otherwise the leadership would be fired.
One can only assume, given the retention of the party leadership, that they really are doing a good job. We may have guesses as to what the purpose is, but we surely know what it ain't - it ain't winning elections and it ain't representing the American people.
“Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” ~ Sun Tzu
Bingo, k9disc! When you say,
From what the Cable News 'talking heads' and Dem lawmakers spout on teevee, it appears that they believe that talking (interchangeably) about immigration and DT, will be the ticket to a win in 2020.
According to them, most 'Reagan Dems'--white working class males--have long left the Dem Party, so, the only way that Dems can possibly win (they say) is if they can drive huge majorities of minority and youth voters to the polls.
Their calculation is that left-leaning voters will be so desperate to see DT defeated, they'll be willing to vote for any Democrat.
Therefore, (in their opinion) it's not 'necessary' to nominate an economic populist. So, why even go there?
Mollie
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
First thing out of the
mouths of D candidates should be on the border issue strictly: I am not for open borders and firmly believe we need to maintain secure borders.
Make this crystal clear and stand behind it.
Make it clear that keeping borders secure does not mean setting up brutal and inhumane concentration camps -- we do not have to act like an ugly, racist dictatorship.
Then go on to the other important core causes -- our support of regime change in Central America causing so many to flee. Cite Honduras and Venezuela. How I would stop the regime change activities, and would work better with the Mexican govt to stop the inflow. Note also how since the Obama yrs (?) the outflow back to Mexico has exceeded the inflow.
So far however, Ds have taken the bait on immigration Qs, often put in gotcha ways by the MSM, and jumped fully into 3d tier discussions about paying for health care for illegal immigrants. Use these type of trap questions to pivot immediately into the border issue above then fill out the rest of the answer with the secondary matters.
Dems fall for these sneaky questions all the time -- on paying for M4A especially. And so they are always put on the defensive, and seemingly always trying to outdo each other on virtue signaling and positioning themselves too far to the left. A lefty position might still work, but only after forcefully noting you stand for secure borders. Framing so far has been poor.
At the risk of being
too doom and gloom, democrats can do none of that and retain the donors who put them in office. They aren't stupid or merely allowing themselves to be rolled, they simply cannot openly challenge any of it. And they won't. They'll use emotion based appeals like they always do and they will lose like they always do. We've all seen this over and over again. None of this makes me happy but it is what it is.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
ICE is a recent creation
ICE doesn't do border control as much as border patrol does. They were created and tasked with going after illegal immigrants during the time we we supposed to be afraid of Muslims right after That Day. But then they did get the job to round up immigrants for deportation. Who owns the holding centers for all those immigrants? $$$$
But one thing people are overlooking when they say that we shouldn't be spending so much money on illegal immigrants when we have so many Americans in dire need is that even before congress pulled billions from the air, both parties were gutting funding for the social programs that the poor, homeless, disabled and veterans rely on. I don't mean people here on this blog, but the many others who say that. Instead what people should be pissed off about when congress finds those billions is that they aren't going to help immigrants locked in cages either. They are going to the shareholders of the private prison groups and other detention groups. And guess how many congress critters have stock or take donations from them? John Kelly, Trump's ex CEO is on the board of the one that charges us $775 day. Wee..
I'm not for open borders one bit. Or for companies like Trump's golf courses hiring illegal immigrants to do work in their places because they don't have to pay as much as they would an American. (BTW why haven't Trump's supporters nailed him over this?) But I do believe in the pottery barn rule. You break it, you buy it. And yes indeed we did break those countries that had elected governments that were taking care of their citizens. And for that reason. Libya had a very high standard of living before the evil queen and the WH bomber decided to overthrow Gaddafi. And the same happened in Honduras and, and, and... or we invaded and destroyed countries and people from there fled to Europe and parts unknown. And then any legal aid that we sent to them and filtered down to the people was revoked by Trump and things got even more desperate.
And yeah offering health insurance free of charge is going to rile people up because they ain't getting free health care. Oh wait... just another thing for we muppets to fight each other over.
ETA
Yes ICE was created just for that reason.
Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.
the problem for the Dems is any position is a position
and they don't want that
Hear, hear! Say it Brother.
[Added punctuation.]
Hey, may have to ask permission to use in sig line.
That's good.
Mollie
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
my darling wife told me about the Obama campaign '08
She worked for that campaign, going door to door. I was working for Jeff Merkley. That's how we split it up. Anyway....
Everything was ok for awhile until the Obama people came out to Oregon to give the talk. "Don't discuss issues, just tell your story", i.e. explain why you think Obama would be a good President but keep it vague!
That one little phrase, "don't discuss issues", is mind-blowing. Without issues what is there in a campaign? or in an administration?
Then Obama voted for FISA and she quit the campaign the next day.
Don't discuss issues.
That is the problem with your local party, that is the problem with my local party.
Don't discuss issues. It's all about Red team vs. Blue team, who gives a damn what they stand for.
Don't discuss issues.
We wanted decent healthcare, a living wage and free college.
The Democrats gave us Biden and war instead.